Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Homebrew and House Rules

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Psisquared wrote:

1. The arcane bloodline sorcerer 9th level ability grants synergy strong synergy for wizard to sorcerer spellcasting, and allows the sorcerer to prepare spells (up to his wizard level) in lieu of spells known?

How does this work exactly? Do the prepared spells
A) Function as swappable known spells, castable multiple times fueled by spells per day slots
or
B) Prepared in lieu of known spells, use spells per day slots, but are also expended once cast
or
C) None of the above

2. Does a synergized wizard/arcane sorcerer gain bonus spells prepared from high attribute?

3. How do the generalist wizard Metamagic Mastery and Sorcerer's rapid metamagic (or any spontaneous casting really) interact with +0 level metamagic feats? Are they useable at will?

1. A) I've been treating that Arcane bloodline/Magus wudan power as swappable known spells.

2. You're giving up Wizard spellcasting so that your Wizard levels provide synergy to your Sorcerer spellcasting. That means your spellcasting attribute (for bonus spells and the like) is Charisma.

3. +0 level metamagic feats are already at-will with spontaneous casting. If you have Rapid Metamagic, Metamagic Mastery is only useful for the spell level adjustment.


Thanks for the reply. Although for question 2 it can be intelligence with the arcane bloodline.

For a straight up generalist Wizard, I'm still not sure how to count +0 metamagic feats for metamagic mastery, a whole use, 1/2 use, free?


My DM would say a whole use, and I don't have a solid enough argument against it.


Can the feat "feat mastery" be applied to leadership?


I'd say yes, only because it's not as explosive as applying Skill Focus [Diplomacy/pick a flavor] to Leadership.

Now as for applying both, I think they'd stack, but they don't count each other for determining how big their bonuses are. I guess that would mean Feat Mastery gets applied after Skill Focus would.


Regarding the description for the Whip, found on page 594 of the PDF: The Simple and Martial proficiencies for this weapon are exactly the same. Is this intended?

I'm assuming not since there would be no point in giving the Bard martial proficiency with this weapon when they already have simple with all weapons. Might I suggest dropping the -4 penalty to attacks and/or making the damage lethal for the Martial proficiency?


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@ Androstre:
I suspect the persisting -4 penalty to be unintentional. I myself ruled without the penalty, though that may be an oversight from my part.

Regardless, I find that I have been inactive in regards to contributions to this thread.
On the bright side, I have had several ideas floating around, and finally got around to jotting them down.
Spells and Metamagic

Spells, Metamagic, and Mystic Blast:

Since I love Metamagic feats (but hate investing feat slots for them, which lead to my rule of ‘Designing Spells in a Library via Metamagic Tomes’), I found that we are still aways from replicating many spells.
These Metamagic feats are tweaks to the normal mechanics (nothing too significant—that comes later in the post).

New Metamagic Feats (3):

1. Magnify Spell [Metamagic]:
Benefit: A spell modified by Magnify Spell increases in damage dice by 1 size, following normal weapon size rules.
[b]Metamagic Cost:
+1 per increment.
Special: This can be used in reverse, by lowering the spell’s damage dice by 1 size, and lowering the spell level proportionately. Unlike most metamagic spell level increases, these levels do not also count towards Heightening the base spell.

This also allows for a stronger Touch-only Mystic Blast.
And it also allows for more accurate replication of Burning Hands. As well as Mystic Blasts that deal 1d4 of a special type of damage (instead of 1d6) for the added benefit of a +1 metamagic feat adjustment. This can also (with some tweaking) be the base reason why Divine Magic is higher in damage than Arcane Magic, but with a lower cap.
Alternatively, this mechanic may be standardized can be rolled into Reduce Spell (for both magnification and reduction), and be called: Controlled Ruination [Metamagic].

2. Measured Spell [Metamagic]:
Prerequisites: Evocation not a barred school.
Benefit: A direct damage-dealing spell modified by Measured Spell loses the ability to scale with Concentration Ranks with increased dice (Refer to The Effects of Heightening Spells), instead it scales at a static +1 per Concentration rank. Count the maximum number of bonus damage as according to the Spell Scaling rules in Chapter 7: Spells, Page. 12.
Metamagic Cost: -1. Alternatively, one can increase the spell level by 1 to gain another dice.

This leads to spells with ultimately lower damage, but with the added capability of adjustment. With this and Magnify Spell, more accurate Cure spells can be replicated, as well as the core Mystic Blast mechanic for increased Metamagic threshold. .

3. Planar Alignment [Metamagic]
Prerequisites: Divine spellcasting, or Necromancy Specialist School.
Benefits: You may substitute a damage type in an evocation spell with Positive or Negative Energy.
Metamagic Cost: +1.
Special: These spells can only be learned and cast by Divine casters, or by Arcane Necromancy specialists. The spell’s school turns to Necromancy [healing].
If applied to Mystic Blast, this can restore hit points (regardless of the life/death dichotomy) 3/day.
Special 2: This spell can also be used to (only) damage a target with the opposite energy (which menas it does not also double as a cure/inflict spell in healing respects). In that case, the spell can be cast by both arcane and divine casters, and has a 0 Metamagic Cost.

Constructed Spell Examples:
Ice Beam:
Ray of Frost (0) + Measured Spell (-1 base, +1 to add 1 dice) + Shape Spell (Ray to Line: +1), Heightened 2 levels.
3rd level spell dealing 2d6 cold damage + 1 per Concentration rank (maximum +7) in a line.

Cure Minor Wounds*:
Ray of Frost (0) + Planar Alignment (+1) + Reach Spell (Close to Touch; -1) =
0 rank spell that deals 1d6 positive energy damage.

Cure Light Wounds**:
Ray of Frost (0) + Planar Alignment (+1) + Measured Spell (-1) + Magnified Spell (+1; 1d6 to 1d8) Reach Spell (Close to Touch; -1) Heightened to level 1 = 1d8 + 1 per Concentration rank, (maximum +5).

Disrupt Undead:
Ray of Frost (0) + Planar Alignment (0; Damage Only) = 0 level spell that (only) deals 1d6 positive energy to 1 positive energy vulnuerable target.***

Mystic Blast, applied:
Force Mystic Blast: Deals 1d3 force damage per 2 ranks in Concentration (magnify to 1d3 from 1d6; -2 adjustment) (+2 adjustment from standard energy to Force).
Far Blast: Deals 1d4 damage per 2 ranks in Concentration, Fire Damage, Medium Range (magnify to 1d4 from 1d6; -1 adjustment) (Reach spell +1 adjustment).

I am of the opinion that a Mystic Blast should not be able to inflict status penalties like [Fatigued] (since it can be done at will)
, except when tied to a times/day mechanic. However, there is no adequate argument I can make against a player who wishes to design a blast such as this. Perhaps we should incorporate saves as well to avoid exploitation.
Notes:
*I am kind of not fond of infinite healing. I don’t use spell slots, as I previously mentioned, so it is less of a concern for me. Maybe we should add a perameter to prevent abuse here, or discard the spell entirely and refer to GM fiat to prevent such abuse.
**For [Cure Moderate Wounds] and onwards, add an additional Spell Level to Magnified Spell for 1 additional Dice. Measured Spell automatically covers the scaling quality.
***This makes Disrupt Undead also disrupt evil outsiders and evil creatures. A negative energy version called ‘Disrupt Living’ can also be constructed.
I am aware of the [Creature-Specific Spell [Metamagic]]. I am not personally fond of it, however—too rigid for my tastes.
Note: Planar Alignment should have added restrictions, but I feel that it’s a great addition otherwise.

Classes, Skills and Feats

Classes, Skills and Feats:

Leadership:
Like Tahlreth graciously stated, Leadership explodes in quality after a certain point. The formula grows exponentially and not statically. This may be the intention, but if it is not, I propose designing an alternative formula scaling with Diplomacy (or Knowledge: Planes) skill points is more appropriate.
As of yet, I have no formula. Please advise whether or not this is intentional.

Shadow Illusion: Wizard (Illusionist) Specialist ability

Wizard Document wrote:


Shadow Illusion (Su): You are able to infuse certain figments (silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real, to an extent equal to 5% x your specialist bonus (maximum 100% real). The subschool of these spells changes from [figment] to [shadow].
This bonus is also added to the extent to which your shadow conjurations and shadow evocations are real. This supersedes the Shadowcraft Mage’s prestige class feature of the same name and “powerful shadow magic” class feature, from Races of Stone, the Shadowcrafter’s “enhanced shadow spells” class features from Underdark, and the Shadowcaster’s “shadowy specialization” variant class feature from Inner Sea Magic.

This ability is not completely clear. I suspect that the design idea is

not to spontaneously turn figments into level-appropriate variations of Shadow Conjuration or Evocation, but the ‘infusion’ is not detailed with regards to action economy.
The second part regarding the bonus is added to Shadow magic reality is clear, however. This may require some detail.

Favored Terrain:
As detailed, any who own a favored terrain gain +2 to various skills. This assumes a +2 bonus. Does the bonus increase by the same increments, or is the +2 bonus static?

Status and Conditions (with an updated attribute-condition list)

Status, Attributes, and Conditions:

1. Intro:
Status-Inflicting Spells and Abilities:
This is my main concern with Kirthfinder; we’re taking good strides to standardize 3e+ conditions--we're cleaning up the huge gaps Pathfinder failed to address when 3.5 became 3.75.
As presented before, metamagic feats can inflict status effects such as [Daze], [Paralyze], etc. Previously, the status degree inflicted is proportionate to the number of spell levels invested in the spell in question.
With KF’s flexible spellcasting system, there can be a number of exploitable spells that are designed to minimize spell level (duration/range/HD/AoE) and maximize effect inflicted (Paralyze and Stun being most dangerous).
Therefore, I propose we modify metamagic feats into ones that give a scaling status dependent on final Spell Level, not spell levels invested in construction. I will elaborate on this shortly.

Under these rules:
Daze will be eliminated, and will inflict the Flat-Footed condition to an <=HD4 enemy instead of the [Daze] condition.
Color Spray will inflict a series of conditions like [Flat-Footed], [Dazzled], and [Entangled].

However, this changes a little too much and nerfs spells severely, which is a worrying sign in houserules.

[On the plus side, an idea occurs to me: A Metamagic feat that lowers spell level, but ties the effect with HD. I'll study this later]

It does not also address the deal-damage-and-inflict-status dynamic.
Therefore, here are guidelines that further modify the new spell (and martial) rules.

2. The Guidelines:
I think we had forgotten to put to account your addition under Condition Severity, Chapter 1 – Introduction, Page 18 in our prior discussions on this thread.

Ch 1 – Introduction, P. 18 wrote:

“Condition Severity: Conditions are rated in terms of severity: a minor condition is one that applies only a small penalty, and can often be applied by a combatant with a base attack bonus of +1, or by a 1st level spell. Severity scales from there to moderate (BAB +6 or 3rd level spell), severe (BAB +11 or 5th level spell), and critical (BAB +16 or 7th level spell).”
Thus, the spell level scaling follows the only other spell-level scaling for static changes; the Light Level Scale and the guideline quote above.
Final Spell Level Status Severity Level
0 – 2nd Minor
3rd – 4th Moderate
5th – 6th Severe
7th – 8th Critical

9th Perilous *Ongoing testing

Note: This does not take into account the fifth condition presented below: Perilous.

Added Guideline:
If a spell has no perameters (damage, or other condition, or ability damage, penalty or drain) other than status-inflicting, it may deal a condition as if it is a spell
two categories higher (count as two steps in the severity scale).

Under this, the [Daze] spell will inflict the Severe condition [Dazed]. I personally prefer that focused spells such as these count as only one category higher, but that will turn Phantasmal Killer to dealing the [Panicked] condition, rather than [Cowering] (or if applying the fifth category: Shock if we tweak the above list).

It is my personal inconsequential opinion that, although the Kirthfinder optional attribute-penalizing-status-inflicting spell rules are creative and interesting, it nullifies the [Charmed] and [Dominated] conditions (turning them into penalties on skill checks) and removes them from the mind-affecting status table. In a way, this is a design feature, but the status [Charmed] and [Dominated] become but descriptors, not status of mechanical importance in of themselves.
It also creates (created, seen during playtesting) added difficulties calculating the end result when bonuses of different types come to play, and slows down gameplay and is just plainly inconvenient.

I have decided to drop the penalty-inflicts-condition approach. I do feel sorry for leaving it (twice, as I playtested it again during the patch). It was a good addition.

Conditions Five-Condition List:
To consolidate sliding status severity, here is the most recent list. Ten new status conditions were chosen, as detailed both below and in the list.
The sources for these conditions are those from Core Pathfinder rules, the Kirth Gerson-Arrius exchange on Pages 43-46 of the Kirthfinder – World of Warriorcraft Houserules Paizo thread, and (according to the former’s contribution, the 1e Fumble spell and the APG’s Unwitting Ally spell).
Three conditions utilize the value (X), which is equal 1/3 the target of the condition’s total HD.

Str [Restraint]
Restrait conditions deal with damage to one’s muscular and bodily functions, which arrests muscular action and combat abilities, and damages the body on a physiological scale.
Minor: Entangled.
Moderate: Grappled.
Serious: Pinned.
Critical: Helpless.
Perilous: Withered.*

Dex [Interia]
Inertia conditions deal with damage to one’s general bodily dexterity and fine manipulation, which includes sluggishness and slow movement, to the inability to generate momentum.
Minor: Flat-footed.
Moderate: Staggered.
Serious: Slowed.
Critical:Paralyzed.
Perilous: Petrified.

Con [Affliction]
Affliction conditions deal with damage to one’s biological functions and the body’s inner mechanisms, which affects and damages general body structure and systems.
Minor: Sickened.
Moderate: Fragile.*
Serious: Nauseated.
Critical: Numb.*
Perilous: Comatose.*

Int [Mental]
Mental conditions deal with damage to one’s reasoning faculties, which delays response and opens one’s self to tactical blunders.
Minor: Mind-Fogged.*
Moderate: Fascinated.
Serious: Dazed.
Critical: Stunned.
Perilous: Feebleminded.*

Wis [Sensory]
Sensory conditions deal with damage to one’s seasory faculties, which (due to damaged perception of reality) prevents proper responsiveness to combat events, and represents generally hampered awareness.
Minor: Dazzled.
Moderate: Blinded.
Serious: Confused.
Critical: Insane.
Perilous: Senseless.*

Cha [Behavioral]
Behavioral conditions deal with damage to one’s communicative and general responsive faculties, as well as key decision-making qualities such as loyalties and alliances.
Minor: Befuddled.*
Moderate: Paranoid.*
Serious: Charmed.
Critical: Dominated.
Perilous: Enthralled.*

Anxiety [Fear]
Anxiety-based conditions deal with mental disruptions and overload due to stress. There is no associated attribute with this condition.
Minor: Shaken.
Moderate: Frightened.
Serious: Panicked.
Critical: Cowering.
Perilous: Shock.

New Conditions Effects: (Marked with *)
Befuddled: Due to confusion, the target subconsciously uses an immediate action (or an attack of opportunity) every round at the beginning of its turn to give an Aid Another bonus against itself to one hostile target at range. If not adjacent to anyone, the action is wasted, and it loses a single opportunity attack at the beginning of each round.
Comatose: The target with this condition is permenantly unconscious and helpless until they recover.
Enthralled: The target with this condition acts as if Dominated by every and any speaker that commands them as an immediate action in their turn (opposed Charisma). They are, however, unpredictable and behaviorally confused. They suffer a 25% chance to fail at any command given to them, increasing by 10% for every competing command in the same round (maximum 50%).
Fragile: Target takes DR –X*, effectively taking X* more damage from every physical attack.
Mind-Fogged: Target takes –X* to all saves and skill checks as it cannot determine whether or not to react to stimulus.
Numb: The critical range of a weapon targeting a numb character is doubled.
Paranoid: The target cannot benefit from Aid Another Bonuses, and is always considered Flanked when adjacent to any creature other than themselves.
Senseless: A target with this condition cannot smell or taste (has no tactile awareness). A senseless creature cannot use special senses such as blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, and has no sense of balance (falls prone). It is helpless and cannot take actions.
Shock: This condition kills a target with both reasoning faculties and vulnerability to mind-affecting spells if they fail a Fortitude Save (DC of the spell). If they succeed, they take (X)d6 internal damage.
Withered: A target with this condition has an effective Strength score of 0 and they fall prone. Their muscles shrivel and wither, and they begin suffocating in X rounds as their lunges fail to function due to muscular interference. A Heal check (DC 10, +1 per each additional round) can keep a target alive by artificially pumping air into its body, but it must be applied every round. A check to stabilize also assists.

* Four conditions utilize the value (X), which is equal 1/3 the target of the condition’s total HD.

@ Tahlreth
With regards to the Flurry of Blows conundrum--I have left it as a Sutra. It seems that the freedom of choosing whichever maneuvers one wishes for, and the ability to swap out weapons is a justifiable ability to spend a Sutra slot on. The fact that it is difficult to upgrade can be ratified by granting Monks who take it two-weapon fighting-related and Stance feats as Bonus feats as the Sutra goes from standard to Sublime.
What do you think?


Arrius wrote:

1. Magnify Spell [Metamagic]:

Benefit: A spell modified by Magnify Spell increases in damage dice by 1 size, following normal weapon size rules.

2. Measured Spell [Metamagic]:
Benefit: A direct damage-dealing spell modified by Measured Spell loses the ability to scale with Concentration Ranks with increased dice (Refer to The Effects of Heightening Spells), instead it scales at a static +1 per Concentration rank.

3. Planar Alignment [Metamagic]
Benefits: You may substitute a damage type in an evocation spell with Positive or Negative Energy.

1. This more or less already exists; it's called "Empower Spell."

2. I assume you mean "+1 damage per rank in Concentration," like the 3.0 version of shocking grasp?

3. For negative energy, this already exists: see Versatile Evocation. For positive energy, I'm very much against it because then, combined with [reserve] powers, you end up with at-will healing blasts and the whole game turns upside-down. The closest I want to come with this is the Positive Energy Spell (or whatever it's called) feat, that also already exists.


Arrius wrote:
Leadership explodes in quality after a certain point. The formula grows exponentially and not statically. This may be the intention, but if it is not, I propose designing an alternative formula scaling with Diplomacy (or Knowledge: Planes) skill points is more appropriate. Please advise whether or not this is intentional.

The exploding quantity is intentional. I want a fighter who puts feats in Social Training and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) to be able to acquire vast armies that stretch across the horizon. I want them to be able to get 8,000 super-elite Unsullied, like Danaerys does in ASOIAF, and still have enough left over for a Dothraki horde and a dragon cohort. The CR cap on your cohort still keeps the total power level under control, because, let's face it, when you're 15th level, an army of 10th level Warriors is pretty cool but not any more game-breaking than any of the 8th level spells your pal Wizzo is chucking around.


Arrius wrote:
I have decided to drop the penalty-inflicts-condition approach. I do feel sorry for leaving it (twice, as I playtested it again during the patch). It was a good addition.

After using it to remake all the spells in Core rules, to some extent I agree, with come exceptions.

For Minor conditions, I still want a +1 or +2 level metamagic feat to apply them directly. For moderate conditions, I want a +3 or +4 level metamagic feat to work. For serious conditions, which generally take a combatant out of the fight, I may stick with attribute penalties to lessen the "save-or-lose" aspect -- the penalties would not stack, and would never reduce the score below 1, so only serious conditions would be inflicted in this manner. For critical conditions, I'm definitely sticking with attribute damage, with the condition applying when the score is reduced to 0. For permanent conditions, I'm sticking with attribute drain. I'm not really in favor of adding more severity levels, because I tend to think they're sufficiently granular as-is.


Andostre wrote:
I'm assuming not since there would be no point in giving the Bard martial proficiency with this weapon when they already have simple with all weapons. Might I suggest dropping the -4 penalty to attacks and/or making the damage lethal for the Martial proficiency?

You might, and are right to do so! The -4 non-proficiency penalty should not apply to Martial proficiency.


On Spells, Metamagic, and Mystic Blast:
I appreciate these additional metamagics purely for replicating/breaking down published spells. Measured Spell might need a tidbit pointing out the +1 scaling is ontop of the base 1d6.

Arrius wrote:
I am of the opinion that a Mystic Blast should not be able to inflict status penalties like [Fatigued] (since it can be done at will), except when tied to a times/day mechanic. However, there is no adequate argument I can make against a player who wishes to design a blast such as this. Perhaps we should incorporate saves as well to avoid exploitation.

I'm pretty sure whatever ability that's adding the [Fatigued] effect to the Mystic Blast also allows a saving throw.

Arrius wrote:
I am kind of not fond of infinite healing. I don’t use spell slots, as I previously mentioned, so it is less of a concern for me. Maybe we should add a perameter to prevent abuse here, or discard the spell entirely and refer to GM fiat to prevent such abuse.

There's already a similar at-will healing ability possible in Kirthfinder. If one of my party members actually bothers picking it up, I make them lose interest in abusing it by asking, "Do you really want to spend all of combat being the heal-fountain?"

For my personal use, I'm keeping the name Eldritch Blast instead of renaming it to Mystic Blast. Less editing that way. :P

On Classes, Skills, and Feats:
The exploding from Leadership was meant to be a reference to Skill Focus adding a multiplier to the Diplomacy Bonus, as opposed to Feat Mastery adding a static bonus to the Diplomacy Bonus.

Additional Favored Terrain says the bonus increases in increments of 2.

On Flurry of Blows:
During the recent lull in this discussion, I was editing all the errata I could into my copy/version of the houserules. Amidst that, I merged the Flurry of Blows advanced fighter talent with the monk's Flurry, and moved it to the monk's Armor and Weapon Proficiency, right after the Note about "special monk weapons":

Ch 3 Classes > Monk > Proficiencies wrote:

Synergy: Flurry of Blows: When making a full attack action, you gain the effects of any Two-Weapon Fighting feats you possess even while attacking in conjunction with any combination of weapons, unarmed attacks, and/or combat maneuvers (assuming the weapon(s) are in hand and you have at least Exotic proficiency with them). This applies to number of attacks, Strength bonus to damage, application of Strike feats, loss of shield bonus to AC, etc. You can flurry with ranged weapons, subject to the normal reload times (for projectiles) and Sleight of Hand requirements (for thrown weapons). You may substitute bind, disarm, sunder, trip, and unbalance combat maneuvers for attacks with weapons that permit those maneuvers as normal during a full attack action.

For example, a 1st level monk can attack with two unarmed attacks, or with each of a pair of sickles, or twice with a single sickle, or with a sickle and an unarmed attack, etc., as long as the total number of attacks matches that gained with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Flurrying with a two-handed weapon limits your damage bonus from Strength and Power Attack to that of a one-handed weapon, however.

Given that the maneuvers listed here can be used as attack actions without Flurry, I'm hesitant to have Flurry cost so much more than the Two-Weapon Versatility feat. Give or take performing a Flurry with a ranged weapon, all the power-gamey differences I can find between Flurry and TWV are simply different character-building resources being spent on the same end result.


Kirth wrote:
1. This more or less already exists; it's called "Empower Spell."

Ah, but you see, Empower Spell does not modify damage dice--it modifies total damage.

Kirthfinder has opened the proverbial floodgate and allowed everyone and their dog to break down spells from core (and otherwise) into more balanced versions of each other. With this, one can make a Force (Mystic Blast) and have a reason for degrading the damage dice without the ad hoc 'It should be lower since it's Force, ya know?'

Kirth wrote:
2. I assume you mean "+1 damage per rank in Concentration," like the 3.0 version of shocking grasp?

Aye, sir. There are many existing spells (like Pathfinder's Eldritch Blast, Breath Weapons, etc. for Sorcerers) that scale with that quality instead. This is the option in metamagic form, with a -1 level adjustment.

Kirth wrote:

3. For negative energy, this already exists: see Versatile Evocation. For positive energy, I'm very much against it because then, combined with [reserve] powers, you end up with at-will healing blasts and the whole game turns upside-down. The closest I want to come with this is the Positive Energy Spell (or whatever it's called) feat, that also already exists.

Very reasonable.

I prefer making negative energy a Necromancer/Cleric thing over giving free access to Evokers in a rolled-up metamagic feat, however.

But in any regard, Tahlreth and I already have examples of at-will healing abilities (which can be legitimately modified into Eldritch Blast--Never mind the Celestial Bloodline's blast, for there is this:
As of yet, I do not know his example of at-will healing, but here is mine, after a little thinking.

One can arguably apply Blast Spell into a Spell-like ability that is at-will (see choosing Cure spells for one's Magical Array).

If unable, one can use the same method (referencing one's ability to cast Magical Array SLA at will with high enough Concentration), with Reach cure spells. As of yet, one can take (in the current version of the rules), cast Reach Cure Moderate Wounds at will at Concentration 18. Arguably, one can also apply Feat Mastery to Magical Array and cast Reach Cure Critical Wounds at will (Count scaling quality: Concentration Ranks as 25; 24 is 6x4(Reach Cure Critical)).

Perhaps even use Spell-Strike to hit a target with a rubber Shuriken to transfer a good at-will healing spell.

If we wish to add limitations to healing abuse, perhaps an optional [Healing Threshold] rule should be implemented--but verily, as of yet, at-will healing does already exist in Kirthfinder.

Someone said wrote:
The exploding quantity is intentional. I want a fighter who puts feats in Social Training and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) to be able to acquire vast armies that stretch across the horizon...The CR cap on your cohort still keeps the total power level under control, because, let's face it, when you're 15th level, an army of 10th level Warriors is pretty cool but not any more game-breaking than any of the 8th level spells your pal Wizzo is chucking around.

response:
Allow me to disagree: The potential is so vast that the owner of Leadership will break the game.

Said army of 10th level warriors is easily abused--truly, if one puts his mind to it, nothing is stopping this god of war from changing all his Warriors (or at least half of them) into Evoker Wizards and granting them all Metamagic (Reach; Medium to Extreme; +2, +3d6 from Specialist Evoker) Magic Missiles to rain down a shower of bright force missiles that will turn night to day.
Armies of Reach+Extended (from Conjurerers who can improve their summons) Summoned Monsters will storm the field for hours.
One can even have their army form a [Healing Division] and with the aid of [Telepathic Bond] with one priest, have them use a series of [Feat Mastery + Healing Light; Touch Cure to Long Range] and have them rain down healing whenever he thinks 'Yeah--maybe it's time for 1 CMW and 1 CCW'--Keep a 'Heal' ready just in case.'

This is why:

Chapter 5 - Feats: Leadership wrote:
Advancement: As you gain experience, you can “level up” or advance your followers as you see fit, as long as their final CRs conform to the above restrictions.

The average 15th level Fighter, putting his Officer bonus (not invested) ranks into Diplomacy, +2 Charisma, and Skill Focus (Diplomacy) has a +25 modified to the skill

Calculation wrote:

Calculation = 3 (class skill) + 2 (charisma) + 15 (ranks) + 5 (Skill Focus) = +25

Leadership Potential = 72 (round down)
Retainers (CR 9: Non-elite array, 10 Class Levels) = 8 Retainers of 9th level (any class)

If we open up more bonuses to the leadership score (like Warlord), the potential increases even more.

Calculation+Warlord wrote:

Calculation = 3 (class skill) + 2 (charisma) + 15 (ranks) + 5 (Skill Focus) + 2 (Skill Synergy) + 5 (Synergy with Fighter) +32

Leadership Potential = 144
Retainers (CR 9: Non-elite array, 10 Class Levels) = 16 Retainers of 9th level (any class)
Or two squads of 10th level non-elite adventurers: a CR 17 threat

Throw in bands of Charisma (or simply higher Charisma), anything that increases Diplomacy (and there is a lot of abilities that do--maybe even requiring a dip), and Skill Focus, and I can see the game just breaking up.

Even funnier--let the 16 retainers be Summoners.

To be honest--strictly speaking, I don't like Leadership as a feat. It does not need to be a feat--I can see numerous opportunities my players convinced an enemy to join them, and while I didn't let the player control them, they were loyal as so far as they were being respected. I used the Leadership feat as a guideline--but not everything needs to be turned into a feat.

Especially when it comes to armies. A general rarely interacts with grunts--mostly any Leadership-relevant use is when they interact with their lieutenants. Thus, a general does not necessarily need Leadership to lead.
Especially when we try to replicate anything Danaerys does.

Kirth wrote:

For Minor conditions, I still want a +1 or +2 level metamagic feat to apply them directly. For moderate conditions, I want a +3 or +4 level metamagic feat to work. For serious conditions, which generally take a combatant out of the fight, I may stick with attribute penalties to lessen the "save-or-lose" aspect -- the penalties would not stack, and would never reduce the score below 1, so only serious conditions would be inflicted in this manner. For critical conditions, I'm definitely sticking with attribute damage, with the condition applying when the score is reduced to 0. For permanent conditions, I'm sticking with attribute drain. I'm not really in favor of adding more severity levels, because I tend to think they're sufficiently granular as-is.

Perhaps one can choose to take an attribute penalty (or damage) instead of a condition?

But regardless, it's up to you. What do you think of the new list?
Also, what is your ruling on the Specialist Bonus for the Illusionist?


Tahlreth wrote:
I appreciate these additional metamagics purely for replicating/breaking down published spells. Measured Spell might need a tidbit pointing out the +1 scaling is ontop of the base 1d6.

Good call. Cleaning up Measured Spell now.

Measured Spell [Metamagic]:
Prerequisites: Evocation not a barred school.
Benefit: A direct damage-dealing spell modified by Measured Spell loses the ability to scale with Concentration Ranks with increased dice (Refer to The Effects of Heightening Spells).
The modified spell deals its base damage (1d6 for Arcane Spells, 1d8 for Divine spells), and it deals bonus damage equal to +1 per rank in Concentration.
Count the maximum number of bonus damage as according to the Spell Scaling rules in Chapter 7: Spells, Page. 12.
Metamagic Cost: -1. One can also increase the metamagic cost by 1 to add another damage dice (same size of the one in the base spell)

I'm pretty sure whatever ability that's adding the [Fatigued] effect to the Mystic Blast also allows a saving throw.

Of course--thank you.

Tahlreth wrote:

There's already a similar at-will healing ability possible in Kirthfinder. If one of my party members actually bothers picking it up, I make them lose interest in abusing it by asking, "Do you really want to spend all of combat being the heal-fountain?" [/Tahlreth]

I have wrote up my at-will healing ability (Magical Talent/Array). Do you have an example of yours?

Tahlreth wrote:
For my personal use, I'm keeping the name Eldritch Blast instead of renaming it to Mystic Blast. Less editing that way. :P

Hah! A fair point.

I kept the Sorcerer ability called Eldritch Blast (since it comes as a modified version of Mystic Blast.

Tahlreth wrote:


On Flurry of Blows:
During the recent lull in this discussion, I was editing all the errata I could into my copy/version of the houserules. Amidst that, I merged the Flurry of Blows advanced fighter talent with the monk's Flurry, and moved it to the monk's Armor and Weapon Proficiency, right after the Note about "special monk weapons":

Ch 3 Classes > Monk > Proficiencies wrote:
Synergy: Flurry of Blows: When making a full attack action, you gain the effects of any Two-Weapon Fighting feats you possess even while attacking in conjunction with any combination of weapons, unarmed attacks, and/or combat maneuvers (assuming the weapon(s) are in hand and you have at least Exotic proficiency with them). This applies to number of attacks, Strength bonus to damage, application of Strike feats, loss of shield bonus to AC, etc. You can flurry with ranged weapons, subject to the normal reload times (for projectiles) and Sleight of Hand requirements (for thrown weapons). You may substitute bind, disarm, sunder, trip, and unbalance combat maneuvers for attacks with weapons that permit those maneuvers as normal during a full attack action.

For example, a 1st level monk can attack with two unarmed attacks, or with each of a pair of sickles, or twice with a single sickle, or with a sickle and an unarmed attack, etc., as long as the total number of attacks matches that gained with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Flurrying with a two-handed weapon limits your damage bonus from Strength and Power Attack to that of a one-handed weapon, however.

Given that the maneuvers listed here can be used as attack actions without Flurry, I'm hesitant to have Flurry cost so much more than the Two-Weapon Versatility feat. Give or take performing a Flurry with a ranged weapon, all the power-gamey differences I can find between Flurry and TWV are simply different character-building resources being spent on the same end result.

Hmm...so, it's subsumed into the Monk base proficiencies, or is it a sub-synergy aspect of TWF?


Arrius wrote:
This ability is not completely clear. I suspect that the design idea is not to spontaneously turn figments into level-appropriate variations of Shadow Conjuration or Evocation, but the ‘infusion’ is not detailed with regards to action economy. The second part regarding the bonus is added to Shadow magic reality is clear, however. This may require some detail.

That more or less IS the idea. As you gain levels as an Illusionist, even your figments become partly real. This ability applies whenever you cast them, and does not require an action on your part.


My at-will healing is Magical Talent + Feat Mastery &/or Skill Focus (Concentration). I'm guessing that's what you meant by Magical Array.

For Flurry of Blows, I followed your suggestion on class-feat synergy effects and moved Flurry of Blows to the monk's base proficiencies.

Arrius wrote:

To be honest--strictly speaking, I don't like Leadership as a feat. It does not need to be a feat--I can see numerous opportunities my players convinced an enemy to join them, and while I didn't let the player control them, they were loyal as so far as they were being respected. I used the Leadership feat as a guideline--but not everything needs to be turned into a feat.

Especially when it comes to armies. A general rarely interacts with grunts--mostly any Leadership-relevant use is when they interact with their lieutenants. Thus, a general does not necessarily need Leadership to lead.
Especially when we try to replicate anything Danaerys does.

I can picture it now: "Leadership, it's not just a feat. It's a quest reward!"

Considering the general > lieutenants > grunts part, the general can easily have the lieutenants be his cohorts. And since there's nothing stopping cohorts from picking up the Leadership feat themselves, the lieutenants then have the grunts be their cohorts. I think it's a nice way to represent relative rank in virtually any kind of hierarchy.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Arrius wrote:
This ability is not completely clear. I suspect that the design idea is not to spontaneously turn figments into level-appropriate variations of Shadow Conjuration or Evocation, but the ‘infusion’ is not detailed with regards to action economy. The second part regarding the bonus is added to Shadow magic reality is clear, however. This may require some detail.
That more or less IS the idea. As you gain levels as an Illusionist, even your figments become partly real. This ability applies whenever you cast them, and does not require an action on your part.

So a level 2 Illusionist (Specialist bonus +1; 10% shadow realism), can cast an Illusion (figment) spell: Silent Image.

The illusionist's image is partially (10%) real.

Can it deal damage? Not specifically--the peramiters of the spell do not allow it to.
Can it prevent damage? No, see above.
Can it hold items? No, see above.
Can it not be disbelieved and seen through? Not until Chains of Disbelief--it is still (Will Disbelief).

I have not ruled its use so far, but can this Level 2 Illusionist use the Silent Image spell he chose to replicate Minor Shadow Evocation (replicate Evocation cantrips, with 10% real if disbelieved)?

But this ruling requires additional elaboration on the base ability. Namely, it must be stated out as so:

Chapter 3 - Wizard, Illusionist, Shadow Illusion (Su) wrote:


Shadow Illusion (Su): You are able to infuse certain figments (silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real, to an extent equal to 5% x your specialist bonus (maximum 100% real). The subschool of these spells changes from [figment] to [shadow] , and said spells act as if Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation spells 1 level lower for the purposes of spell type, duration, and effects, rather than the base [figment] spell. This choice must be made during the casting of the spell.
This bonus is also added to the extent to which your shadow conjurations and shadow evocations are real. This supersedes the Shadowcraft Mage’s prestige class feature of the same name and “powerful shadow magic” class feature, from Races of Stone, the Shadowcrafter’s “enhanced shadow spells” class features from Underdark, and the Shadowcaster’s “shadowy specialization” variant class feature from Inner Sea Magic.

An example would help.

Example wrote:


Therefore, a 6th level Illusionist (specialist bonus +2) casting Major Image (3rd level spell) can choose to replicate the effects of lesser Shadow Evocation, a 2nd level [Shadow] spell that replicates 1st level [Evocation] spells. The illusionist can make her Major Image act in all respects (damage, range, effect, target, duration) as a Magic Missile spell, with a DC set as if it were a 2nd level spell, despite Evocation being a barred school.
Upon being struck, the target can roll a Will save against the DC of the spell, and count only 20% of the damage as real.

Is this anywhere near your intent in design?


Tahlreth wrote:
My at-will healing is Magical Talent + Feat Mastery &/or Skill Focus (Concentration). I'm guessing that's what you meant by Magical Array.

Exactly so--great minds think alike. /wink

Tahlreth wrote:

For Flurry of Blows, I followed your suggestion on class-feat synergy effects and moved Flurry of Blows to the monk's base proficiencies.

It seems like a better call than using a Sutra, I admit.

Tahlreth wrote:


Given that the maneuvers listed here can be used as attack actions without Flurry, I'm hesitant to have Flurry cost so much more than the Two-Weapon Versatility feat. Give or take performing a Flurry with a ranged weapon, all the power-gamey differences I can find between Flurry and TWV are simply different character-building resources being spent on the same end result.

They are? I thought all maneuvers were their own Standard action.

/Checks Core Rulebook
Hmm...I think that after learning this, there would be no need for adding this part:

Chapter 3, Fighter, Flurry of Blows wrote:
You may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for attacks with weapons that permit those maneuvers as part of a flurry of blows.

For detailing this explicit addition insinuates that one cannot do it normally.

There are many ambigious areas in the rules that we seldom need to add more maddening obscurities.

Tahlreth wrote:

I can picture it now: "Leadership, it's not just a feat. It's a quest reward!"

Considering the general > lieutenants > grunts part, the general can easily have the lieutenants be his cohorts. And since there's nothing stopping cohorts from picking up the Leadership feat themselves, the lieutenants then have the grunts be their cohorts. I think it's a nice way to represent relative rank in virtually any kind of hierarchy.

All things considered, I like using multipliers of 8 when calculating anything related to mass combat--eight units form a military Squad (8 units, lead by ), ten squads form a Company (80 units), a Division is 10 Companies (800 units), a Corps is 10 Divisions (8,000 units), and Field Army is 10 Corps (80,000 units).

The real guideline whether or not one can field a massive army is how high the CR is, which determines how high a CR the cohort lieutenants are.

Unrelated, but I've been designing rules for armies--this came quite relevant.


Arrius wrote:
have not ruled its use so far, but can this Level 2 Illusionist use the Silent Image spell he chose to replicate Minor Shadow Evocation (replicate Evocation cantrips, with 10% real if disbelieved)?

Glad you're here -- I hadn't thought that one through as thoroughly as maybe I could have, but my intent was that, at 2nd level, illusionary orcs could deal 1/20 normal damage, a silent image of a sword would deal 1/20 damage, etc. Here are the relevant abilities from the Shadowcraft Mage PrC, which I more or less turned into the KF Illusionist:

Spoiler:
Beginning at 3rd level, a SCM is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A SCM can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell. The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used. For example, a SCM who uses silent image to create an acid splash would deal 10% of the normal damage to a creature that succeeds on its Will save to disbelieve the shadow. If she used programmed image to mimic summon monster V, the creature would have 60% of the hit points of a normal creature of its kind, and its damage would be 60% normal against a creature that succeeds on its Will save to disbelieve. A SCM can apply shadow illusion to any of the following figment spells: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, programmed image.

When an SCM reaches 5th level, the strength of the effects created by her shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, greater shadow conjuration, greater shadow evocation, shades spells increases by 20%. That is, these spells are an additional 20% likely to affect disbelieving creatures and deal 20% more damage. This bonus also applies to figment spells transformed into shadow spells via (see above).


I can see that I was rather overly-ambitious in cutting word count there!


Re: Leadership, for multiple creatures, I've long been thinking about using the encounter level rules (+2 CR per doubling of numbers), rather than purchasing each of a horde of grunts separately. That way, your 128 CR 1/3 warriors would cost CR 11 (CR 1 for the first quartet + 2^5 for additional numbers), rather than CR 42.67 (=128/3). That way we could scale the CR potential in a more linear manner, rather than quadratically.


For the Illusionist's Shadow Illusion, I'm confused on what the problem is. Arrius is making it sound like clarification is needed (I'm guessing clarification on limitations of use/flexibility, and on interaction). Yet Kirth is making it sound like there's a balance issue.

For clarification, I'd side with Arrius on having Shadow Illusion follow the same interaction rules as Shadow Conjuration/Evocation (interaction is the same as the real thing, except any numbers are reduced to % amount). But I'm not sure if the figments really need to be treated as if 1 level lower considering the balance side.

For the balance issue, I don't see what the problem is.

Because reasons:
  • Yeah a 2nd level Illusionist is better off using figment cantrips with 5% realness instead of Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, but only because the Illusionist is 1 level away from having access to Shadow Conjuration. 3 levels away from Shadow Evocation.
  • At 6th level, Shadow Illusion could fully mimic Shadow Evocation at 10% realness, but Shadow Evocation is still relevant because it gets buffed by Shadow Illusion. Shadow Conjuration, however, can by this point be heightened to being 20% real on it's own.
  • If this was a 2nd level Prestige Illusionist for the 10% realness, then their Spell Capacity is already high enough to heighten Shadow Conjuration/Evocation to being 30%/20% real before Shadow Illusion gets added in, compared to the 10% the figments would get.
  • I'm pretty sure the Heighten rules for Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, and Shadow Illusion already saying it stacks on top the realness of Shadow Conjuration/Evocation would each keep Shadow Conjuration/Evocation from becoming obsolete.
  • As for spamming figment cantrips at a maximum of 25% realness, the damage cap for cantrips is still 1d6.

For Leadership, have either of you checked the CR scaling for having a cohort and retainers be as high-leveled as what Leadership allows for? I've been plugging the formula into Excel, and the scaling looks pretty linear to me. But it's possible I could be plugging numbers in wrong...


*Checks Egg of Coot for errata.*

*Nods once he realizes he doesn't need to update his files again and send it to the 100 people who come asking for it*


Scavion, the back-and-forth discussion between Arrius, Kirth, and I might yield worthwhile errata that hasn't yet been added to Egg of Coot. I suggest perusing through the past 4 pages. Hopefully, it at least makes for a good read.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Glad you're here -- I hadn't thought that one through as thoroughly as maybe I could have, but my intent was that, at 2nd level, illusionary orcs could deal 1/20 normal damage, a silent image of a sword would deal 1/20 damage, etc. Here are the relevant abilities from the Shadowcraft Mage PrC, which I more or less turned into the KF Illusionist

Ah, I see. The problem here is that the perameters for image spells are quite broad (Long range/4 10 ft.-cubes + 1 10 ft.-cube/level).

For the sake of standardization (my, I'm using that word quite often), I suggested we allow the spontaneous conversion of any [Figment] to a Shadow Evocation/Conjuration. If not, a 'replication' of a Fireball would have a possible mass of up to 9 10 ft.-cubes. Low believability, but that can lay waste, since it follows the increased damage and DC of a high-level spell.

Tahlreth wrote:


I'm not sure if the figments really need to be treated as if 1 level lower considering the balance side.

Because reasons:

I won't lie; I love illusionists. Having this ability is filling me with all these nice tingly feelings people usually describe as happiness and joy when seeing little puppies play catch, or when chicks get to hatch and let out that characteristic high-pitched chirp as they trip over their eggshells and bump their golden bodies against their likewise-as-cute brothers and sisters.

But spontaneous casting is usually a Big Thing. Illusion is one of the most versatile and 'creative' schools.
Having a 5th level Illusionist use up all the 'mileage' from the sound/visual/scent aspects of Major Image and then converting it to a giant shadow centipede essentially allows him to cast two spells with the price of one (though the believability is still a drawback).
The lessened believability would be less of a problem as an illusionist's focus on flexibility would dictate that a [figment] is always better than a [shadow conjuration/evocation] spell. Besides, there is one missing spell level behind Shadow evocation and conjuration.

That's my reasoning behind the -1 spell level on the spontaneous transformation.

Solution 1:
Have [figment] be cast as [Shadow Evocation/Conjuration] with less believability, but this must be chosen either during concentration (with the illusionist infusing the figments), or during casting, which effectively spontaneously transforms [figments] to shadow spells of equal level.

Solution 2:
Have illusionists rule the world and fill their lairs with Shadow Conjuration puppies and chicks.

Tahlreth wrote:
For Leadership, have either of you checked the CR scaling for having a cohort and retainers be as high-leveled as what Leadership allows for? I've been plugging the formula into Excel, and the scaling looks pretty linear to me. But it's possible I could be plugging numbers in wrong...

Eh--it seems so. It makes sense, somehow.

Edit:
Mentioning illusion spells got me thinking about normal ways to cirucmvent detection spells, and it got me thinking of a chain of anti-magic spells.

True Seeing, See Invisibility and Detect Magic being most common, but Mind Blank also qualifies.

Such spells can be on lower levels, but the spells change as their duty changes: See Invisibility, True Seeing, and Mind Blank bar a specific level of spells (or caster level, which is my personal preference). The rules would follow the normal KF spells for skill-bonus-granting spells when heightened. Count said spells as if they cancel out spells with a caster level less than or equal to the number of bonuses multi-targeted skill-bonus-increasing spells grant.

That's a mouthful. Here's an example:

Denial Table, based on the Scaling Bonuses by Spell Level Table: Chapter 7 - spells, page 11 wrote:


SL CL denied
0 —
1 +2
2 +5
3 +7
4 +10
5 +12
6 +15
7 +17
8 +20
9 +22

With the creation of Lesser and Greater True Seeing/See Invisibility/Mind Blank, we have a clear guidline that does not automatically render an entire school obsolite.

Lesser True Seeing
Level 4 Divination spell
As the spell true seeing, except that it reveals all illusions with a caster level less than or equal to 10 (Corresponding number in the table).

True Seeing
Level 6
Can reveal all illusions with a caster level less than or equal to 15.

Greater True Seeing
Level 8
Can reveal all illusions with a caster level less than or equal to 20.

And Invisibility and Mind Blank follow the same suit. The Insidious Illusion ability from the Illusionist can allow for an opposed roll, or add their specialist bonus as a circumstance bonus to their caster level (or concentration ranks, as this sytem follows) to better fortify their illusions.


Hey guys,

anyone here that could point me to a place to find a group for kirthfinder?
I have gm'ed 3 adventures in kirth by now but I am itching to experience it from the other side of the gm-screen.
Unfortunately my players don't feel comfortable gm-ing so I have to look somewhere else.


Insignium wrote:
anyone here that could point me to a place to find a group for kirthfinder?

If you're in western PA I might be able to help you out... otherwise, the Gamer Connection forum might be the way to go.


Tahlreth wrote:
Scavion, the back-and-forth discussion between Arrius, Kirth, and I might yield worthwhile errata that hasn't yet been added to Egg of Coot. I suggest perusing through the past 4 pages. Hopefully, it at least makes for a good read.

I check this thread frequently. If Kirth finds adding more errata is worthwhile then I will happily update my files for those who desire them.

My post was more along the lines of showing that Im still active in case people wanted the files.


It's been some time since we last exchanged ideas. I have finalized my version of Mystic Blast [Or Eldritch Blast, for name consistency].

Mystic Blast [General, Reserve]
You have the unique ability to spontaneously lob balls of magic.
Prerequisites: Must be able to cast Arcane or Divine spells.
Benefit: You may, as a standard action, unleash a ray at close range [30 + 5 ft. per 2 caster levels] as a ranged touch attack, usable 3 + your spellcasting attribute/day, dealing 1d6 per highest-available spell level you have prepared. The damage can be chosen once this feat is taken, but it is limited to fire, cold, electricity, or acid, not subject to a save to half. Spell Resistance may block this spell on a failed spell penetration check.
For the purposes of interacting with spells, count the blast as a spell level 1 effect (plus 1 for each five caster levels).
Special: You may also apply positive or negative level adjustments with Metamagic feats, but the total adjustment must be +0 to the spell level.

This subsumes my changes, and allows for easy construction of other reserve feats (Ray to Burst, Widen from 30 to 5 ft. keeps damage and range as normal).
This way, the changes to the Sorcerer's Eldritch Blast can be standardized by granting them +1 to the maximum spell level (to allow more modification via metamagic feats) instead of granting them random benefits.

For example, one can have a Reach Blast to medium range [100 ft. + 10 ft. /caster level], but the caster must apply the Measured Spell Metamagic feat to reduce the damage dice from 1d6 to 1d4. One can instead apply a different kind of damage (like Force), but must suffer the -2 to the effective spell level.


'Usable 3 + your spellcasting attribute/day...' Is Mystic Blast a supernatural ability now? Otherwise, I'd definitely rather spend a feat on Magical Talent than on Mystic Blast.

Before I'd be comfortable with replacing my damage type chooser for Mystic Blast with what you've just submitted, I'd have to see the metamagic spell-level adjustments for the sorcerer's Improved Blast abilities.

'Count the blast as spell level 1 + 1/5 caster levels.' Hmm... Another approach would be to let Innate Metamagic increase the spell level, but only for DCs and heightening, not spell slot expended. I'm not sure if removing the [Strike] effect treatment from the sorcerer's Improved Blast would help.

Now if Innate Metamagic heightens and increases the spell DC, and Improved Blast is already a (slightly modified) bonus Innate Metamagic feat, there wouldn't be a need to adjust the [effective spell level/spell level cap] of Mystic Blast (or any other spell-like ability). I also have no idea how your Mystic Blast's spell-level-scaling works with the sorcerer Improved Blast's +1 to max spell level.


Tahlreth wrote:
'Usable 3 + your spellcasting attribute/day...' Is Mystic Blast a supernatural ability now? Otherwise, I'd definitely rather spend a feat on Magical Talent than on Mystic Blast.

Ah, the limitation is a holdover from the feat described for personal use. Please ignore that; it is a freely-granted ability to some classes in my Warcraft RPG houserules.

Tahlreth wrote:
Before I'd be comfortable with replacing my damage type chooser for Mystic Blast with what you've just submitted, I'd have to see the metamagic spell-level adjustments for the sorcerer's Improved Blast abilities.

Of course.

Sorcerer wrote:

Improved Blast [Strike] (Su): Starting at 8th level, your eldritch blast carries an additional effect specific to your bloodline. This is represented using the Innate Metamagic feat, with the spell-like ability being your eldritch blast and the metamagic equivalent as listed for the appropriate bloodline. When the metamagic feat in question allows a variable spell level cost, the effect unless otherwise specified is for the +1 spell level cost effect (unless the minimum cost is higher than that, in which case the effects for lowest listed cost apply). However, the actual metamagic level adjustment for improved blast feats is always considered to be +0 (i.e., it automatically applies, and does not affect applications of your Blast Metamagic ability).

The effects of your improved blast are treated as a [Strike] effect (Chapter 5) for determining when it can be activated (i.e., on a single blast attack; on multiple blasts if you have the Battle Touch feat and the iterative blast ability and/or Manyshot feat or Ray Splitting feat; or on any of the other special conditions listed).

In a way, this has existing precedent in the rules; and it is more or less existent (without being spelled out, of course).

Example:
Level 8 Sorcerer gains Mystic Blast as a free feat, and gains a +1 Metamagic adjustment for it.
Damage type starts with Fire; they apply Energy Admixture Metamagic (+0 adjustment) for Slashing or Frost.
At level 8, they gain +1 Adjustment; they can make the damage Sonic with Energy Admixture (+1 level), or keep it as Frost and apply Flash Frost (+1 level), which coincides with the Boreal Bloodline below:

Eldritch Blast (Sp): Your eldritch blast is a ray of frost; it deals cold damage (descendants of frost folk may have this ray emanate from one eye, although this need not be the case for all sorcerers with this bloodline). Improved Blast: Flash Frost EvocationGreater blast: Numbing Cold Evocation.

Tahlreth wrote:
'Count the blast as spell level 1 + 1/5 caster levels.' Hmm... Another approach would be to let Innate Metamagic increase the spell level, but only for DCs and heightening, not spell slot expended. I'm not sure if removing the [Strike] effect treatment from the sorcerer's Improved Blast would help.

I would have assumed that DCs are based on comparable class abilities; 10 + 1/2 Sorcerer level + Charisma, not the normal (much weaker) formula existing in the rules; DC 10 + level of spell + your Charisma modifier.

Regardless, [Strike] feats treat the blast as a normal melee or ranged attack, as it does touch spells. I don't see why it would help, either.

Tahlreth wrote:
Now if Innate Metamagic heightens and increases the spell DC, and Improved Blast is already a (slightly modified) bonus Innate Metamagic feat, there wouldn't be a need to adjust the [effective spell level/spell level cap] of Mystic Blast (or any other spell-like ability). I also have no idea how your Mystic Blast's spell-level-scaling works with the sorcerer Improved Blast's +1 to max spell level.

Good point; though this is an option to those who are not sorcerers in any rate, as their Blasts would remain as level 1 effects. I would remove it, actually.

All in all, I would assume that the only tie Eldritch (or Mystic) Blast has with spellcasting at a whole is that it depends on an empty slot (or reserve) to cast it, and the scaling feature with the highest-level spell.


Arrius wrote:

In a way, this has existing precedent in the rules; and it is more or less existent (without being spelled out, of course).

Example:
Level 8 Sorcerer gains Mystic Blast as a free feat, and gains a +1 Metamagic adjustment for it.
Damage type starts with Fire; they apply Energy Admixture Metamagic (+0 adjustment) for Slashing or Frost.
At level 8, they gain +1 Adjustment; they can make the damage Sonic with Energy Admixture (+1 level), or keep it as Frost and apply Flash Frost (+1 level), which coincides with the Boreal Bloodline below:

Eldritch Blast (Sp): Your eldritch blast is a ray of frost; it deals cold damage (descendants of frost folk may have this ray emanate from one eye, although this need not be the case for all sorcerers with this bloodline). Improved Blast: Flash Frost Evocation Greater blast: Numbing Cold Evocation.

Oh, I meant the effective spell-level adjustments for each blast improvements each individual bloodline grants. Sorry I didn't specify.

Arrius wrote:
I would have assumed that DCs are based on comparable class abilities; 10 + 1/2 Sorcerer level + Charisma, not the normal (much weaker) formula existing in the rules; DC 10 + level of spell + your Charisma modifier.

Ah, right. I was referring to using Innate Metamagic on actual spells when I said that. For Innate Metamagic on SLAs, you're correct.

Arrius wrote:
Regardless, [Strike] feats treat the blast as a normal melee or ranged attack, as it does touch spells. I don't see why it would help, either.

Not how [Strike] feats treat the blast. The second paragraph of Improved Blast says the improvement is treated as a [Strike] effect. I'd opt for removing that paragraph because Improved Blast is built off of Innate Metamagic, which already has a frequency of use limitation. If that's combined with the use limitations of [Strike] effects, Strike Mastery would practically be a feat tax. Unless I'm reading that paragraph wrong.

Arrius wrote:
Good point; though this is an option to those who are not sorcerers in any rate, as their Blasts would remain as level 1 effects. I would remove it, actually.

I'm in favour of moving the SLA-heightening/metamagic-cap from the class features over to the feats the class features are based on. That way, anyone who picks them up benefit, sorcerers just get them for free.

Arrius wrote:
All in all, I would assume that the only tie Eldritch (or Mystic) Blast has with spellcasting at a whole is that it depends on an empty slot (or reserve) to cast it, and the scaling feature with the highest-level spell.

The funny part is, spell slots aren't exclusive to spellcasting ability.

Ch.6 Equipment - A: Designing Custom Items - Other wrote:
Power Conduits: For when you just can’t get enough spell slots, a personal item might serve as a conduit for raw magical power from the plane of your deity, from a circle of stones at the confluence of ley lines, or whatever. A power conduit provides you with additional “spells per day” slots (Spellcasting Table 2). This costs 2,000 numen x the maximum level of spell slots x the spell capacity level. For example, a 7th level sorcerer could have an item that draws additional magical power, adding six 1st level and three 2nd level spell slots to his total, for 16,000 numen total (2,000 x 2 x 4). Note that there is no reason a fighter cannot take the Arcane Bond feat, choose a wand as a bonded item, and enhance it with this ability in order to power it.


Tahlreth wrote:
Arrius wrote:
Regardless, [Strike] feats treat the blast as a normal melee or ranged attack, as it does touch spells. I don't see why it would help, either.
Not how [Strike] feats treat the blast. The second paragraph of Improved Blast says the improvement is treated as a [Strike] effect. I'd opt for removing that paragraph because Improved Blast is built off of Innate Metamagic, which already has a frequency of use limitation. If that's combined with the use limitations of [Strike] effects, Strike Mastery would practically be a feat tax. Unless I'm reading that paragraph wrong.

Ah--I see what you mean.

I would remove the [Strike] descriptor, as it should be an improvement to the base ability, and not some convoluted [Strike] feat that uses a combination of other mechanics in an unclear way.

The last line written below--

Sorcerer Improved Blast wrote:
The effects of your improved blast are treated as a [Strike] effect (Chapter 5) for determining when it can be activated (i.e., on a single blast attack; on multiple blasts if you have the Battle Touch feat and the iterative blast ability and/or Manyshot feat or Ray Splitting feat; or on any of the other special conditions listed).

Is unnecessary; since the actual effects of the blast are counted as a normal ranged touch attacks for the purposes of interaction with [Strike] feats, attacks of opportunity (when referring to the type of ability it is; Sp) it provokes, or application of precision damage.

All in all, Improved Blast should just state the bloodline-specific metamagic feat given, I would assume.

Note, Tahlreth, that in my version of Eldritch Blast, the applications of metamagic feats (without Innate Metamagic) are constantly active; a Boreal Bloodline sorcerer's Mystic (or Eldritch) Blast will always have the Flash Frost metamagic applied, and not have it as 3/day as the normal sorcerer would.

I assumed that the maximum effective spell level limitation kept it from getting out of hand--but balance is a question we ask after we finish writing an ability, no?

Tahlreth wrote:

I'm in favour of moving the SLA-heightening/metamagic-cap from the class features over to the feats the class features are based on. That way, anyone who picks them up benefit, sorcerers just get them for free.

Very astute; such was my intention before. Should we introduce an [Improved Mystic Blast] feat, and [Greater Mystic Blast] feat?

Tahlreth wrote:
The funny part is, spell slots aren't exclusive to spellcasting ability.

Alas, the hashtag #DM_Outsmarted will always be active.


Arrius wrote:
Note, Tahlreth, that in my version of Eldritch Blast, the applications of metamagic feats (without Innate Metamagic) are constantly active; a Boreal Bloodline sorcerer's Mystic (or Eldritch) Blast will always have the Flash Frost metamagic applied, and not have it as 3/day as the normal sorcerer would.

A normal Boreal bloodline sorcerer gets Improved Blast [Evocation, Flash Frost] at level 8. The same level said sorcerer gains enough bonus ranks in Concentration for Innate Metamagic [Mystic Blast; Evocation, Flash Frost] to be usable at-will instead of only 3/day.

Arrius wrote:
I assumed that the maximum effective spell level limitation kept it from getting out of hand--but balance is a question we ask after we finish writing an ability, no?

I'm pretty certain 3/day for 6th-9th-level SLAs, and at-will SLAs capping at 5th-level is perfectly reasonable. Now if the 9th-level ones should be restricted to 1/day, I'll accept a ref's judgement on that one. Worse case scenario, someone clever picks up Skill Focus [Concentration], raising their at-will SLA cap to 7th-level. Considering they'd reach that at level 19 at the earliest (level 18 if they pick up Feat Mastery [Skill Focus (Concentration)]), I'd treat it as a nifty multi-classing-compatible capstone feature.

Arrius wrote:
Very astute; such was my intention before. Should we introduce an [Improved Mystic Blast] feat, and [Greater Mystic Blast] feat?

I'm curious to see what the differences would be between Improved Mystic Blast, and Innate Metamagic [Mystic Blast; (metamagic effect)].


"Tahlreth wrote:
]I'm pretty certain 3/day for 6th-9th-level SLAs, and at-will SLAs capping at 5th-level is perfectly reasonable. Now if the 9th-level ones should be restricted to 1/day, I'll accept a ref's judgement on that one. Worse case scenario, someone clever picks up Skill Focus [Concentration], raising their at-will SLA cap to 7th-level. Considering they'd reach that at level 19 at the earliest (level 18 if they pick up Feat Mastery [Skill Focus (Concentration)]), I'd treat it as a nifty multi-classing-compatible capstone feature.

Skill focus cannot help (due to the explicit limitation), though feat mastery could.

Tahlreth wrote:
]I'm curious to see what the differences would be between Improved Mystic Blast, and Innate Metamagic [Mystic Blast; (metamagic effect)].

It would be the same difference between directly applying metamsgic feats to a spell while preparation and taking Innate Metamagic [Same spell; same effect]. Overlapping in the rules is something we unnecessarily shy away from.


Arrius wrote:
Skill focus cannot help (due to the explicit limitation), though feat mastery could.

Oh, Skill Focus' paragraph on 'virtual ranks' seems to have disappeared in this version. Well, this is embarrassing.

Arrius wrote:
It would be the same difference between directly applying metamagic feats to a spell while preparation and taking Innate Metamagic [Same spell; same effect]. Overlapping in the rules is something we unnecessarily shy away from.

I guess that's enough of a difference. Though with that distinction, Improved Mystic Blast sounds like something I'd only use for sorcerer bloodlines. And since that was the whole point, good idea.


Tahlreth wrote:
Arrius wrote:
Skill focus cannot help (due to the explicit limitation), though feat mastery could.

Oh, Skill Focus' paragraph on 'virtual ranks' seems to have disappeared in this version. Well, this is embarrassing.

Arrius wrote:
It would be the same difference between directly applying metamagic feats to a spell while preparation and taking Innate Metamagic [Same spell; same effect]. Overlapping in the rules is something we unnecessarily shy away from.
I guess that's enough of a difference. Though with that distinction, Improved Mystic Blast sounds like something I'd only use for sorcerer bloodlines. And since that was the whole point, good idea.

Excellent. I think we covered everything on this ability. Any input from Kirth? We may turn this into errata yet.


Note: Improved Mystic Blast's +1 bonus to metamagic cap can also scale for every few spell levels in reserve (personally, I'm in favor of every 4 levels, in accordance with the Sorcerer document). That way, it would be two feats that is quite worth investing for at-will customizable blasts of energy.


As we cover Eldritch/Mystic Blast and spells, perhaps we can address TWF from a different angle.

The discussion on Flurry of Blows got me thinking: There are too many abilities that grant multiple attacks, and none of them are consolidated; in fact, they seem to branch out unnecessarily.

For example: We have Animal Fury (Bite, Barbarian), Flurry of Blows (Monk), Flurry of Blows (Fighter, based on Monk and Two-Weapon Fighting Feat), Manyshot (Ranged Feat), Iterative Eldritch Blast (Sorcerer) and Two-Weapon Fighting (Melee Chain Feat), amongst others.

I don't see why Two-Weapon Fighting and Manyshot cannot be consolidated into one feat. This imaginary feat would grant a static bonus to all those who take it, with an added limitation built in the feat. Each class (when gaining their variant on multiple attacks) gain this feat, and add a new category under the feat itself, allowing it to function uniquely for them.

The issue of multiple attacks has been floating around so much that everyone added some kind of variant to it.

Flurry of Attacks:

Flurry of Attacks
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Weapon Proficiency
Benefit: When you make a full attack with any single melee or ranged weapon in which you have proficiency, you gain an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus. Both attacks take -2 to the attack roll. This also allows you to substitute combat maneuvers that require an attack action (only) during executing this ability. For each iterative attack you possess, you can attack an additional time, suffering the same penalties as described under your base attack bonus.
This ability has different weapon categories depending on the weapon in question. You can only utilize one category per round; attacking with two finessable weapons counts as either the first or fourth category.
• If fighting with two weapons, the attack penalty from your primary hand lessens by 2, and that of your off hand lessens by 6.
• If fighting with one weapon, the attack penalty remains -2, but you apply only ½ your Strength modifier for damage for both attacks, and you treat Power Attack as if using a light weapon.
• A single polearm held in both hands (taking the off-hand attacks with the haft; treat as a staff). Secondary attacks gain ½ your Strength modifier for damage, as normal for two-weapon fighting, and gain damage bonuses from Power Attack as if using a light weapon.
• A finessable weapon used in one hand (attacking with the pommel as a knuckle-duster for your off-hand attacks; treat as a light club).
• If a wand is used, you can activate two at the same time as a full-round attack action, applying the attack penalty to Spellcraft checks to activate the wands.
• If a single ranged projectile or multiple thrown weapons are used, you can attack one additional time that round with no additional reload time, if applicable, suffering the same base penalty above.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your offhand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each (an unarmed strike is always considered light). Activating a wand is a standard action. Attacking with a polearm, projectile or thrown weapon is a Standard action.

Source: This feat now subsumes the Haft Strike Feat from Dragon magazine, issue 331, the Double Wand Wielder feat from Complete Arcane, the Swashbuckler’s pommel swipe deed from the Advanced Class Guide, the Two-Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot feats from the Core Rulebook.

Changes to Class Entries wrote:

Under the Monk entry: Weapon Proficiencies:

Flurry of Blows: Monks treat unarmed strikes as qualifying weapons under Flurry of Attacks, and may substitute weapons during your flurry (all must go under one category; ranged, finesse, or polearm) gain the feat as a bonus feat, treating them as fighting with two weapons (or finesse weapons, if you utilize Weapon Finesse for attack rolls).

Under the Sorcerer Entry: Iterative Blast:
Iterative Blast (Sp):
Starting at 12th level, you treat your Eldrtich/Mystic Blast as a qualifying weapon under Flurry of Attacks, and gain the feat as a bonus feat for these purposes only, treating them as fighting with ranged projectile weapons. You can get the feat to have it act normally if you wish.

Under the Fighter Entry: Flurry of Blows
Flurry of Blows:
Fighters treat all weapons as qualifying weapons under Flurry of Attacks, and may substitute weapons during your flurry (with no limitation on utilizing categories) and gain the feat as a bonus feat.

Positives: This keeps monks having their base ability with no additional investure, and grants Sorcerers the ability to utilize their iconic ability in a more standardized way. This also opens the door for additional feats that modify this ability. This also allows for less floating abilities, and standardizes multiple attack-combat.

Negatives: This renders several feats obsolete, and feats that are linked like Manyshot and Rapid Shot revert to being unliked (as Manyshot’s primary trait of rolling once for two attacks is not filed under this ability). Of course, one can classify all feats that have a bonus effect starting on BAB +6 as feats that have +6 BAB as a prerequisite, and ignore the entry ability.


Arrius wrote:
Any input from Kirth? We may turn this into errata yet.

My idea for treating improved blasts as a [Strike] was that you'd have to make a choice: one blast with rider effects, or multiple ones without. Then again, considering some of your later discussion, it might be interesting to treat Iterative Blast as Innate Metamagic (Ray Splitting), and see where that leads us.

I'm not really a huge fan of the "spell level = 1 + 1/x levels" thing -- I'd rather have the spell level increase organically through innate metamagic, if that could be done.


Arrius wrote:
The discussion on Flurry of Blows got me thinking: There are too many abilities that grant multiple attacks, and none of them are consolidated; in fact, they seem to branch out unnecessarily.

I agree -- and, because elimination of extraneous sub-systems is actually a stated design goal, I'd like to see this explored more! One thing, though, is that Flurry of Blows is actually an upgrade to Two-Weapon Fighting, insofar as you can use a single weapon. Manyshot is therefore more akin to the former. Iterative blast, on the other hand, simply works off the existing BAB interative attack rules. To get this to work, then, we'd probably need a 3-tiered system:

I. Basic iterative attacks;
II. Additional attacks (e.g., off-hand weapon);
III. Additional attacks not requiring an off-hand weapon.

Gaining multiple [Strike] effects in a single round would be still a fourth tier, in a sense. Maybe fold that into the Striking Mastery feat?


Kirth Gersen wrote:
It might be interesting to treat Iterative Blast as Innate Metamagic (Ray Splitting), and see where that leads us.

That approach would hopefully keep anyone else from having similar confusion as I had pages ago on how Mystic Blast behaves in relation to SLAs and weapons.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'm not really a huge fan of the "spell level = 1 + 1/x levels" thing -- I'd rather have the spell level increase organically through innate metamagic, if that could be done.

That's also my preference for Improved Blast/Innate Metamagic. Allow Innate Metamagic to increase the level of the spell/SLA for heightening spell effect caps, interacting with other spells, and DCs if it's applied to a spell (not SLA).

Kirth Gersen wrote:

I agree -- and, because elimination of extraneous sub-systems is actually a stated design goal, I'd like to see this explored more! One thing, though, is that Flurry of Blows is actually an upgrade to Two-Weapon Fighting, insofar as you can use a single weapon. Manyshot is therefore more akin to the former. Iterative blast, on the other hand, simply works off the existing BAB interative attack rules. To get this to work, then, we'd probably need a 3-tiered system:

I. Basic iterative attacks;
II. Additional attacks (e.g., off-hand weapon);
III. Additional attacks not requiring an off-hand weapon.

So if I'm reading that right, the given abilities would be organized as such?:

I. Iterative Blast, Ray-Splitting +6
II. Flurry of Blows, Two-Weapon Fighting
III. Animal Fury, Haste, Manyshot, Ray-Splitting +0

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Gaining multiple [Strike] effects in a single round would be still a fourth tier, in a sense. Maybe fold that into the Striking Mastery feat?

As a power gamer, if I was really wanting to get multiple [Strike] effects to go off in a single round, the character would be dual-wielding scimitars, flank with someone for the Sneak Attack synergy, and have the feats Two-Weapon Strike and Critical Focus just to be thorough.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'm not really a huge fan of the "spell level = 1 + 1/x levels" thing -- I'd rather have the spell level increase organically through innate metamagic, if that could be done.

We shall make a new format for Mystic Blast, then. This will subsume the original ability and all improvements in the Sorcerer document.

Mystic/Eldritch Blast:
Mystic Blast [General, Reserve]
You have the unique ability to spontaneously lob balls of magic.
Prerequisites: Must be able to cast Arcane or Divine spells.
Benefit: You may, as a standard action, unleash a ray at close range [30 + 5 ft. per 2 caster levels] as a ranged touch attack, usable at will, dealing 1d6 per highest-available spell level you have prepared. The damage can be chosen once this feat is taken, but it is limited to fire damage, not subject to a save to half. Spell Resistance may block this spell on a failed spell penetration check.
Special: You may also apply positive or negative level adjustments with Metamagic feats, but the total adjustment must be +0 to the spell level.

Improved Mystic Blast:
Mystic Blast, Improved [General, Reserve]
Your Mystic Blast increases in potency.
Prerequisites: Mystic Blast, Spell Capacity 8+
Benefit: You may apply positive or negative level adjustments to your Mystic Blast, but the total adjustment must be +1 to the effective spell level.

Iterative Blast:
Iterative Blast[General, Reserve]
Your Mystic Blast is quickly discharged.
Prerequisites: Mystic Blast, Spell Capacity 12+
Benefit: You may consider Mystic Blast as an attack action for the purposes of interacting with iterative attacks drawn from your base attack bonus.

Greater Mystic Blast:
Mystic Blast, Greater [General, Reserve]
Your Mystic Blast greatly increases in potency.
Prerequisites: Mystic Blast, Spell Capacity 16+
Benefit: You may apply positive or negative level adjustments to your Mystic Blast, but the total adjustment must be +2 to the effective spell level.

Powerful Blast:
Powerful Blast[General, Reserve]
Your Mystic Blasts are at the epitome of strength.
Prerequisites: Mystic Blast, Spell Capacity 19+
Benefit: Your Mystic Blasts no longer require spells in reserve, and deal damage as if your reserve spell level was 10, regardless of your actual capacity.

Now back to attacks and action economy.

Kirth Gerson wrote:
"Arrius wrote:
The discussion on Flurry of Blows got me thinking: There are too many abilities that grant multiple attacks, and none of them are consolidated; in fact, they seem to branch out unnecessarily.

I agree -- and, because elimination of extraneous sub-systems is actually a stated design goal, I'd like to see this explored more! One thing, though, is that Flurry of Blows is actually an upgrade to Two-Weapon Fighting, insofar as you can use a single weapon. Manyshot is therefore more akin to the former. Iterative blast, on the other hand, simply works off the existing BAB interative attack rules. To get this to work, then, we'd probably need a 3-tiered system:

I. Basic iterative attacks;
II. Additional attacks (e.g., off-hand weapon);
III. Additional attacks not requiring an off-hand weapon.

Gaining multiple [Strike] effects in a single round would be still a fourth tier, in a sense. Maybe fold that into the Striking Mastery feat?

That's a good first step. I would prefer to throw in this line under the Introductory document, the Combat Chapter to clarify this mess.

Introduction wrote:

Action Economy and Attacks

Attacking with a weapon is usually called 'Spending a Standard action'. Attacking, however, truly expends an 'Attack action'. A single Attack Action is equivalent to a Standard action in all respects, so the interchangeability under the rules is quite acceptable.
Spending a full round during an attack is called 'Full-Attack Action', and it uses the base attack granted for free, and any bonus attacks granted under the following conditions, consuming Standard and Move actions, allowing only for a Swift or 5-foot-step. A character with multiple bonus attacks and iterative attacks may consume them all during the same full-round action.
Attacks
0. Each character gains 1 Attack action at any Base Attack Bonus above -1.

1. Iterative Attacks: If you have a qualifying number of Base Attack Bonus points of +5 or its multipliers. For each +1 above +5 you have, you gain an Iterative Attack (eg. at BAB +6, you gain a +1 Iterative attack). Iterative attacks can be used for combat with a full-attack action as described above, but any use for an attack suffers a -5 noncumulative penalty.

2. Extra Weapon Attacks: If you wish to attack with a weapon in another hand, this is called an Extra Weapon Attack. The main attack suffers -6, and the Additional Attack suffers a -10 penalty to the attack roll. If the second weapon (hereby called an Off-hand weapon) is of the light weapon category, the penalties are 2 points less. Feats can elevate the penalties further.

3. Bonus Attacks: If you wish to attack at the same round with another weapon of not the same type, this is simply called an Additional Attack. Normally, an Additional Attack cannot be used unless granted by a feat. Penalties for such additional attacks are usually detailed under the feat entry.

Bonus actions of this type are considered Iterative Attacks, and are considered resources that are spent on feats, abilities, or during normal combat action economy.

Whew. Under the classification, yes. We need to clean this up, however.

TAHLRETH wrote:

So if I'm reading that right, the given abilities would be organized as such?:

I. Iterative Blast, Ray-Splitting BAB >6, Normal Iterative Attacks
II. Flurry of Blows, Two-Weapon Fighting
III. Animal Fury, Haste, Manyshot, Ray-Splitting BAB <6

I would prefer to throw in Flurry of Blows out entirely, as seen above; but the normal ability does go under the classification.


The issue with the above classification is that under the rules (and under the previous rules) one can combine their normal attack action allocations, iterative attacks, extra weapon attacks, and bonus attacks into one massive flurry.

I realize this is a feature, not a bug. This fact may make it difficult to explain and put to words how the system works without having to get the reader to compile several instances of rulings and reverting to forums.


Just for the record, something that is unique is not just rare or unusual, it is one-of-a-kind. If you really want Mystic Blast to be 'unique', it needs to be encountered only once per campaign.


Arrius wrote:

Action Economy and Attacks

Attacking with a weapon is usually called 'Spending a Standard action'. Attacking, however, truly expends an 'Attack action'. A single Attack Action is equivalent to a Standard action in all respects, so the interchangeability under the rules is quite acceptable.

Spending a full round during an attack is called 'Full-Attack Action', and it uses the base attack granted for free, and any bonus attacks granted under the following conditions, consuming Standard and Move actions, allowing only for a Swift or 5-foot-step. A character with multiple bonus attacks and iterative attacks may consume them all during the same full-round action.

0. Each character gains 1 Attack action at any Base Attack Bonus above -1.

1. Iterative Attacks: If you have a qualifying number of Base Attack Bonus points of +5 or its multipliers. For each +1 above +5 you have, you gain an Iterative Attack (eg. at BAB +6, you gain a +1 Iterative attack). Iterative attacks can be used for combat with a full-attack action as described above, but any use for an attack suffers a -5 noncumulative penalty.

2. Extra Weapon Attacks: If you wish to attack with a weapon in another hand, this is called an Extra Weapon Attack. The main attack suffers -6, and the Additional Attack suffers a -10 penalty to the attack roll. If the second weapon (hereby called an Off-hand weapon) is of the light weapon category, the penalties are 2 points less. Feats can elevate the penalties further.

3. Bonus Attacks: If you wish to attack at the same round with another weapon of not the same type, this is simply called an Additional Attack. Normally, an Additional Attack cannot be used unless granted by a feat. Penalties for such additional attacks are usually detailed under the feat entry.

Bonus actions of this type are considered Iterative Attacks, and are considered resources that are spent on feats, abilities, or during normal combat action economy.

I have to admit I'm not really a fan of all this verbiage. If we're going to re-codify attack actions and so on, let's just do it, not keep the same ones but re-define them. I'd rather see something like this:

Attacks: As a standard action, you can make one attack at your full base attack bonus, plus one additional "iterative attack" (at -5) at BAB +6, +11, and +16, as shown in the class tables (Chapter 3).

Certain feats and abilities can increase your number of attacks still further, as described below.

  • Additional attacks with an off-hand or secondary weapon: Describe TWF and attacking with secondary natural attacks and so on, as a standardized mechanic. Animal Fury falls squarely under this heading.

  • Additional attacks with the same weapon: Cite haste, Flurry of Blows, and Manyshot, again as a standardized mechanic.


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    I also feel pretty strongly that, with the description of condition tracks and attack actions and so on, that Combat merits a separate chapter. To follow the Core rules, I'd make it Chapter 7, and then Spells would be Chapter 8. A table of contents might look like this:

    ACTIONS IN COMBAT

    Types of Actions
    - Free Actions (define)
    - Immediate Actions (incl. swift)
    - Partial Actions (list; move, attack each get a "see below")
    Aid Another
    Attack Actions
    - Iterative Attacks
    - Secondary Attacks
    - Additional Primary Attacks
    Attacks of Opportunity
    Move Actions
    Preemptive Actions
    Spellcasting in Combat
    Swift Actions

    GENERAL COMBAT RULES
    Battle Fatigue
    Combat Etiquette
    Defensive Fighting
    Precision Damage
    Taking a Breather

    GRIDLESS COMBAT

    COMBAT MANEUVERS
    Forcing Maneuvers
    Tricky Maneuvers
    Weapon Maneuvers
    Wrestling Maneuvers
    Nonstandard Maneuvers

    MONSTERS
    Converting Monsters
    Monsters and Expectations

    APPENDIX A: CONDITIONS
    Condition Severity
    Descriptors
    Inflicting Conditions
    Affliction
    Beguiling
    Debilitation
    Fear
    Febrility
    Inertia
    Restraint
    Sensory


    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Attacks: As a standard action, you can make one attack at your full base attack bonus, plus one additional "iterative attack" (at -5) at BAB +6, +11, and +16, as shown in the class tables (Chapter 3).

    Did you intend to make a full attack take only a standard action?


    Arrius wrote:

    Mystic Blast [General, Reserve]

    You have the unique ability to spontaneously lob balls of magic.
    Prerequisites: Must be able to cast Arcane or Divine spells.
    Benefit: You may, as a standard action, unleash a ray at close range [30 + 5 ft. per 2 caster levels] as a ranged touch attack, usable at will, dealing 1d6 per highest-available spell level you have prepared. The damage can be chosen once this feat is taken, but it is limited to fire damage, not subject to a save to half. Spell Resistance may block this spell on a failed spell penetration check.
    Special: You may also apply positive or negative level adjustments with Metamagic feats, but the total adjustment must be +0 to the spell level.

    LolWhat?

    Arrius wrote:
    Spending a full round during an attack is called 'Full-Attack Action', and it uses the base attack granted for free, and any bonus attacks granted under the following conditions, consuming Standard and Move actions, allowing only for a Swift or 5-foot-step.

    Tactical Movement, also in the Introduction chapter, allows for a half-move action on the same round as a full-attack action.


    Kirth wrote:
    I also feel pretty strongly that, with the description of condition tracks and attack actions and so on, that Combat merits a separate chapter. To follow the Core rules, I'd make it Chapter 7, and then Spells would be Chapter 8. A table of contents might look like this:

    Chapter 7: Combat would be an excellent addition to the current edition.

    Kirthfinder Version 6.0: "If It Doesn't Make Sense After This, Quit Playing RPGs".

    Tahlreth wrote:
    Arrius wrote:

    Mystic Blast [General, Reserve]

    You have the unique ability to spontaneously lob balls of magic.
    Prerequisites: Must be able to cast Arcane or Divine spells.
    Benefit: You may, as a standard action, unleash a ray at close range [30 + 5 ft. per 2 caster levels] as a ranged touch attack, usable at will, dealing 1d6 per highest-available spell level you have prepared. The damage can be chosen once this feat is taken, but it is limited to fire damage, not subject to a save to half. Spell Resistance may block this spell on a failed spell penetration check.
    Special: You may also apply positive or negative level adjustments with Metamagic feats, but the total adjustment must be +0 to the spell level.
    LolWhat?

    What? See the Versatile Evocation Metamagic and apply what is detailed under Special.

    Tahlreth wrote:
    Tactical Movement, also in the Introduction chapter, allows for a half-move action on the same round as a full-attack action.

    Eh...I did not know that.

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