Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Homebrew and House Rules

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Dear Kirth,
Your houserules / ideas rock. I've been using them in my campaign and my players love it.
I would love an updated version.
Thanks,
Chris

Spoiler:
cjmizanin@sbcglobal.net


I'm fixing some problems with the domain feats; once that's completed, I'll have a shiny new version to send out, and will do a mass mailing.

Thanks!
--Kirth


How do these rules handle creatures with a natural Strength score of 1, such as the toad familiar? Other attributes make sense--for example, all lizards being treated as feebleminded--but all toads being permanently entangled is a bit odd.


Vil-hatarn wrote:
How do these rules handle creatures with a natural Strength score of 1, such as the toad familiar? -- all toads being permanently entangled is a bit odd.

Ha! I'd missed that one.

I'd probably just up the toad's Str to 2. Either that, or add a "non-entangled" SQ.

Liberty's Edge

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Shoot me a copy when you're happy with what you have. I am planning on a game based on these rules when my work schedule stabilizes; it is the only way to get relevant data to you that used to come in real time ;-)


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Awesome, HD! I'm pretty happy with them now; a few more tweaks and v. 2 will be done. I might even send it to the printer...


Shiny new, when the domains are done:

Spoiler:
ilija42@yahoo.com


So, looking at the skills situation and how it doesn't manage to keep up with the magical capabilities at higher levels I was wondering if any thought had been put to the following.

Have specific skill rank requirements for certain tasks, and keep these requirements separate from the DC's.

For example, using the heal skill, you might have Raise Dead as per the Raise Dead spell, but requiring 5,000 gp in exotic medical supplies per attempt, as a possible thing doable with the skill provided you have at least 12 skill ranks. The DC for this task can be whatever the designer wants, but they need to have at least 12 skill ranks to attempt it.

Under this system, you can keep the skill system relevant at the higher levels, while preventing people from pumping their skill checks and being able to perform deeds at levels divergent from their intended target level.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Awesome, HD! I'm pretty happy with them now; a few more tweaks and v. 2 will be done. I might even send it to the printer...

When i got the "final" v2 I was planning on running it over to kinkos.

It's easier for me to pour over that way. From what I've seen so far it's worth the cost to do so.


Hi Kirth!

I like your ideas, and I've been using the early version of the rules in my campaign.

Could you send me the latest?

Spoiler:
vasse.info@gmail.com


Caedwyr wrote:
So, looking at the skills situation and how it doesn't manage to keep up with the magical capabilities at higher levels I was wondering if any thought had been put to the following: Have specific skill rank requirements for certain tasks, and keep these requirements separate from the DC's.

For everyone who got the 10/2013 mailing, most skills now have a "class skill" section which includes exactly those sorts of things. In addition, there are now quite a number of feats and class features that are keyed to your number of skill ranks.


I think I'm behind a version, could I get the latest when you have a chance?

Spoiler:
douglasschaub@comcast.net

Liberty's Edge

If the mass mailing spell is still not cast, is it possible to add me to the list?

Thanks! :)

Spoiler:
marcolivierd95 at gmail dot com


It appears you are one step ahead of me on this matter (and I have an older set of the rules). Will there be another revision coming out any time soon?


Kirth have you ever thought about taking your martial(meaning non caster in this instance) fixes(your skill rules, feats, and reworked classes) and selling it as a PDF. For some reason if it was a 3PP it would be a lot easier to get people to use these rules(which I love) instead of being a free PDF(weird I know, but in my experience it does happen).

Thanks


proftobe wrote:
Kirth have you ever thought about taking your martial(meaning non caster in this instance) fixes (your skill rules, feats, and reworked classes) and selling it as a PDF. For some reason if it was a 3PP it would be a lot easier to get people to use these rulesinstead of being a free PDF (weird I know, but in my experience it does happen).

I've run into that, too, and thought about it, but stubbornly won't do it for a variety of reasons:

1. Potential for copyright infringement issues. I'm not in the business of profiting off of other people's work, even if it's been modified or outright redone.

Less importantly,

2. Don't want to be held to publishing schedules, tech support, etc.
3. I like sharing homebrew ideas, but I'm not looking to make a whole new game or anything.

That said, when I get the rules to where I want them (which should happen this spring) I'll probably send them to Lulu and order myself a hardback. I'd then be able to share the code from that site so that other people can get their own rulebooks, which makes them look "official" so that players won't think they're totally worthless.


Caedwyr wrote:
It appears you are one step ahead of me on this matter (and I have an older set of the rules). Will there be another revision coming out any time soon?

I hope that, by early spring, I'll have the rules more or less finalized for the year 2014 (and hopefully beyond). What's keeping me from it are some nagging issues with domain powers/feats, which I can't seem to quite resolve.

I'll make a mass mailing as soon as they're finished.


So, the domain issues. I'm wrestling with three possibilities:

(1) Make all domain powers into feats with "access to X domain" as prerequisites. Clerics and archivists would get bonus domain feats to pick them up; the cleric would get them at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, kind of like a specialist wizard.
(2) Keep domain powers as they are, and just offer the subdomain substitutions and "domain devotion" feats (from Complete Champion) as feats. You'd keep the original and spend a feat to get the new one, too.
(3) Make all domain powers into a menu of options, almost exactly like the incarnate's revelations.

My issues are these:

(1) Unequal feat worth (1st level domain powers are weak compared to 8th level ones!) and insanely large page count.
(2) Working on this, but it's a pain in the neck.
(3) Has potential to make the Cleric document a hundred pages long, because there are a lot more domains than there are mysteries.


In the Player's Handbook 2 of 3.5, there were Tactical feats that granted 3 different maneuvers with a single feat. All three maneuvers could be used at the time you got the feat, so their availability weren't limited to your level.

If you convert each domain into a feat, giving all three domains powers in one feat wouldn't be that unbalanced as their availability would be unlocked based on your level. Similar to a feat chain.

For subdomain feats, you could just say in the Benefits text that they grant the same powers as domain X, except for the following: (and then list the replacement powers). Just like how they are presented now as a class feature. That way it is its own feat, but you aren't reprinting domain powers.

Yes, their are tons of domains, and yes, the Cleric document will likely be huge. That's just the way it is.

Building on your idea A3, making all domains into a menu of options:

This seems like a viable idea. Serve them up as Rogue Talents or Rage Powers, or the like, but instead of listing out the domain powers by domain, they are determined by your deity. Domains are still chosen for other effects, though.

You could also categorize domain powers: lesser domain power (1st level powers), major domain power (4th and 6th level domain powers), and grand domain powers (8th level domain powers). You could even toss in ultimate powers (your 20th level domain powers). You then would just combine all of the subdomain powers into one domain power list (basically eliminating subdomains).

For example:

Your Deity is "Sun-Dude". His domains are: Desert, Fire, Fury, Glory

Sun-Dude's Power List:
Lesser Powers: (all 1st-level from current Desert domain + Fire domain + Fury domain + Glory domain)
Major Powers: (all 4th- to 6th-level from current Desert domain + Fire domain + Fury domain + Glory domain)
Grand Powers: (all 8th-level from current Desert domain + Fire domain + Fury domain + Glory domain)

You pick two domains, as normal, granting the bonus spells, skills, and variant channeling stuff. This represents your specialization in your Deity's attributes/domains/teachings/etc.

Then, your progression would look something similar to this:

Level......Special
1..........Domains, domain power (lesser)
2..........[ ]
3..........domain power (lesser)
4..........[ ]
5..........[ ]
6..........[ ]
7..........domain power (lesser or major)
8..........[ ]
9..........[ ]
10.........[ ]
11.........domain power (lesser or major)
12.........[ ]
13.........[ ]
14.........[ ]
15.........domain power (lesser or major or grand)
16.........[ ]
17.........[ ]
18.........[ ]
19.........domain power (lesser or major or grand)
20.........Ultimate domain power (domain exemplar)

For domain feats, you could have two separate types of domain feats; ones that grant one domain from your deity's list, and ones that grant one domain power from your deity's list of a varying degree based on feat (lesser, major, grand).

Just spit-balling here.


Good ideas!

I'd been avoiding deity-specific stuff (except in the case of cults, which are mostly just intended to make the referee's prep job easier) so that groups can invent their own deities: "I worship the great god Shroom, who grants me the Plant and Madness domains!" So I'd like to keep things organized at a domain, rather than deity, level.

In terms of scaling effects, in PF there are only really two: 1st and 4th-8th. I added 20th. So they don't scale by level as neatly as we'd like.

On the other hand, if they all became (non-scaling) feats, the cleric table would have been:
1. Aura, channel energy +1d6, domain access, domain feat, spellcasting
2. Steadfast faith +1
3. Channel energy +2d6
4. Domain feat
5. Channel energy +3d6
6. Planar Channeling
7. Channel energy +4d6
8. Domain feat
9. Channel energy +5d6
10. Steadfast faith +2
11. Channel energy +6d6
12. Domain feat
13. Channel energy +7d6
14. Handle Relic
15. Channel energy +8d6
16. Domain feat
17. Channel energy +9d6
18. Steadfast faith +3
19. Channel energy +10d6
20. Domain exemplar


I guess you would need to list all of the domain powers out then (including subdomain powers), per domain, like Mysteries and Revelations.

In the Advanced Player's Guide alone, there are two subdomains per "main" domain. That is is six domain powers per "main" domain (two main powers, and four sub powers). If a cleric has access to two "main" domains, then that is 12 domain powers to choose from. With your progression list above, a cleric would get 5 domain feats by 16th level. 5 out of 12 isn't so bad.

Normally, with only two domains, you'd have four powers by 8th level, and five powers by 20th level.

If you keep the Domain Exemplar power "unchooseable" through a feat, but grant it at 20th level, then that is six domain powers by 20th level with the domain feat/chooseable domain power list option.

So I guess if you made them a choose-from-list option, you would need to bring the 4,6,8th level powers down to a 1st-level power level, bring the power level of 1st-level powers up a little, or have varying degrees of domain feats and categorize feats by strength (lesser=1st-level, greater=4,6,8th-level).


Anyway, you can see why this will take until spring to get straightened out.


Indeed. Best of luck.

Dark Archive

"Your sneak attack damage is maximized when used against a creature that is totally unaware of your presence. You can use a maximized sneak attack in this manner only once on any particular creature; thereafter, it will be wary of such a trick from you (even when surprised)"

Question: Is the creature forever wary of the maximized sneak attack, even if he/she survives the encounter and face the same enemy a year later (to put a date). What about a maximized sneak from another creature?


As written, no time limit, but we're assuming you kill the target anyway, so once per encounter would probably work just as well. (Realistically, the odds of the same rogue trying this once a year against the same target seem pretty remote.)

As to your second question, "from you" is specifically cited in the rule. If two rogues with this ability attack a target unaware of both of them, for example, they can both use it.


I found a few more possible errata in the metamagic feats. I don't have the most up to date copy so some of these may have been fixed in the october mailing.

P10 For the Black lore of Moil, the reference to the bones mystery should be changed to the graves mystery. Also do you want to change to cost of the runebone’s creation to numen rather than gold?

P 18 for threatening illusion, should the intuition save to disbelieve be based upon charisma rather than your spellcasting ability score?

P21 the penetrating and pushing spells are out of alphabetical order.

P 25 for the thanatopic spell, it still references knowledge religion and the Bones mystery.

P 26 for the unskittering spell I believe it should state CMD rather than CMB in the description.


Thanks, Christopher. I hope to go through all your edits this weekend and make sure they've been addressed. I'll also make sure you're on the "must-have" list for the mailing of v.2 this spring.


On the matter of the domain stuff, I think you're taking the right tack with keeping domains working generally the same, but with updated/better powers. It makes picking a god somewhat like choosing a mystery; you then pick your domains from there, and they "scale" by way of granting powers as you level up, which also scale to a degree on their own. And I certainly wish you luck with them, because that's a lot of stuff to go through.


I like the menu of options idea, as it fits nicely with the 'tailor-your-own-build' theme the rest of the document has, but I agree it'd get messy. My best idea is to have the (sub)domain powers categorized by relative strength (i.e. rage powers), then have abbreviations after each power name to indicate what domains have access to that power (similar in appearance to the 'Ex, Su, or Sp' abbreviation after certain abilities).

Off topic questions:

In your second example of a use-activated magic item, you have a fixed Searing Light spell made into a sword. Would Searing Light maintain it's medium range even after being made into a use-activated item? If not, would you get the same end effect (give or take damage cap) if you first apply Reach Spell to Searing Light to decrease its range (if that's allowed) to touch, thereby dropping the numen cost from 60,000 numen to (if I'm doing the math right) 20,000 numen?

You ruled Eldritch Blast out of qualifying for Bonded Item because it's not a physically separate item. I'm guessing unarmed attacks can't qualify for Bonded Weapon for the same reason. What about embedded items? Does an embedded item not qualify? Do you lose your bond to an item if it becomes embedded?

One of the optional prerequisites for Prestige Specialist is to have a qualifying bloodline. Does picking up a bloodline through the Eldritch Heritage feat count?

You have a number of class features work off the Leadership feat, a feat that you can't otherwise pick up multiple times. What happens if you pick up more than one of these features, like a Ranger Knight having both Mark of the Wild and Warlord? Or better yet, a Fighter with Warlord and Mount. Are they tracked separately?

In the Monk section, True Seeing is listed as both a 4th and a 5th level Ki Power.


Tahlreth wrote:

1. In your second example of a use-activated magic item, you have a fixed Searing Light spell made into a sword. Would Searing Light maintain it's medium range even after being made into a use-activated item? If not, would you get the same end effect (give or take damage cap) if you first apply Reach Spell to Searing Light to decrease its range (if that's allowed) to touch, thereby dropping the numen cost from 60,000 numen to (if I'm doing the math right) 20,000 numen?

2. You ruled Eldritch Blast out of qualifying for Bonded Item because it's not a physically separate item. I'm guessing unarmed attacks can't qualify for Bonded Weapon for the same reason. What about embedded items? Does an embedded item not qualify? Do you lose your bond to an item if it becomes embedded?

3. One of the optional prerequisites for Prestige Specialist is to have a qualifying bloodline. Does picking up a bloodline through the Eldritch Heritage feat count?

4. You have a number of class features work off the Leadership feat, a feat that you can't otherwise pick up multiple times. What happens if you pick up more than one of these features, like a Ranger Knight having both Mark of the Wild and Warlord? Or better yet, a Fighter with Warlord and Mount. Are they tracked separately?

5. In the Monk section, True Seeing is listed as both a 4th and a 5th level Ki Power.

1. Think about it, just for a second. If you could carry around a 150-foot lance of deadly energy everywhere you go... walk into town, and all the villagers die and the buildings catch on fire. Enter the forest, and the trees die and the forest burns around you. Are these desireable outcomes? Possibly in an epic-level game, but not at 5th level or whatever. So, realistically, the effect needs to be sword-sized for you to wield it like a sword. Now, since the portable sword size is an ADVANTAGE to you, rather than a DISADVANTAGE, you do NOT get a discount for it. Remember how we talked before about you never getting discounts for disadvantages that don't actualy apply to you? Same general rule, yet again.

2. Unarmed attacks: correct. They are not separate objects. Now, if you take a separate object, make it your bonded item, and then pay the cost to embed it, then yes -- it can be, and remain, a bonded item. You're paying for the privilege, in that case. (BTW, I once had a villain whose bonded item was a chunk of obsidian embedded in his forehead.)

3. Possibility One: No, because you haven't actually acquired the bloodline, just some of the abilities from it.
Possibility Two: You explain to the referee and other players what you're trying to accomplish, and if they all agree it's totally worth it, they waive that rule and let you do it.

4. They're all separate, even if the mechanics are similar. So if a fighter/cleric has Leadership and Mount and Command Undead, he'd track his followers and steed and controlled undead separately from one another.

5. I'll look at it when I get home. Thanks!


Kirth Gersen wrote:

1. Unarmed attacks: correct. They are not separate objects. Now, if you take a separate object, make it your bonded item, and then pay the cost to embed it, then yes -- it can be, and remain, a bonded item. You're paying for the privilege, in that case. (BTW, I once had a villain whose bonded item was a chunk of obsidian embedded in his forehead.)

2. Possibility One: No, because you haven't actually acquired the bloodline, just some of the abilities from it. 
Possibility Two: You explain to the referee and other players what you're trying to accomplish, and if they all agree it's totally worth it, they waive that rule and let you do it.

1. That villain reminds me of the Dark Wanderer from Diablo II. Not what I was expecting, but cool.

2. Good, this works out. The party member in question wants to be a shapeshifter, but is more interested in martial abilities than any of the magical abilities the Druid, Sorcerer, or Wizard get.

3. Dimensional Agility's synergy ability with the Skirmish feat says you can move up to twice your movement speed. Is this applied before, after, or overlap with other abilities that increase movement speed like the Monk's Fast Movement sutra or the Fleet feat? I remember multipliers are usually applied after other modifiers, but I'd like to be sure.

4. Point-Blank Shot's first synergy entry and the Barbarian's Fortification rage power (but not the Fighter talent, odd) mention "skirmish attacks." Are they referring to the Skirmish feat's synergy ability with the Vital Strike feat, or the Scout class from Complete Adventurer?

5. The first sentence of the Ranger lore Ranger Mage says, "Add all sorcerer/wizard spells of the appropriate levels you your class spells list." Should say, "appropriate levels to your class spells list."


Tahlreth wrote:
Dimensional Agility's synergy ability with the Skirmish feat says you can move up to twice your movement speed. Is this applied before, after, or overlap with other abilities that increase movement speed like the Monk's Fast Movement sutra or the Fleet feat? I remember multipliers are usually applied after other modifiers, but I'd like to be sure.

Since it spells out "your current speed," you'd take your base speed, apply any modifiers (including an expeditious retreat spell, for example), and double that. You're still limited by your total teleportation jump distance, however.

Tahlreth wrote:
Point-Blank Shot's first synergy entry and the Barbarian's Fortification rage power (but not the Fighter talent, odd) mention "skirmish attacks." Are they referring to the Skirmish feat's synergy ability with the Vital Strike feat, or the Scout class from Complete Adventurer?

The former. In general, when referring to an outside source other than the Core rules, I try to always cite the source (either by superscript or a direct reference).

Tahlreth wrote:
The first sentence of the Ranger lore Ranger Mage says, "Add all sorcerer/wizard spells of the appropriate levels you your class spells list." Should say, "appropriate levels to your class spells list."

Corrected -- thanks.


Keeping an eye on this. Looks interesting.


I'd like to receive the latest version, it's been a while since the last time I've checked your rules (who are awesome, by the way).

Mail:
josantos666@ymail.com


Sushewakka, Simbaa,

Thanks for your interest! As mentioned above, I hope to have v. 2 finalized this spring and will send out a mailing at that time to people who are interested. If I've got your email, consider yourselves on the list.

As always I look forward to any comments/criticisms/suggestions.

Thanks again!
--Kirth

Scarab Sages

Could you put me down for the latest version?

I think the files I have are from years ago.

Spoiler:
robert.feather@blueyonder.co.uk

Scarab Sages

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Kirth Gersen wrote:
2. Unarmed attacks: correct. They are not separate objects. Now, if you take a separate object, make it your bonded item, and then pay the cost to embed it, then yes -- it can be, and remain, a bonded item. You're paying for the privilege, in that case. (BTW, I once had a villain whose bonded item was a chunk of obsidian embedded in his forehead.)

Was it put there by Granbretanian mad scientists?


.


Here are a few more possible edits:

Under languages sometimes you reference high elvish, wood elf, and elvish, are they 3 different languages?

Under high elves the dreamspeaker quality, is the DC bonus a racial bonus?

For envoy under high elves, read magic has been removed in your house rules, do you still want to reference it?

Under DAOINE SIDHE class skills, since they get spellcraft as a bonus skill would you like to take it out of the class skill section?


Just checking here, when's the last time the rules linked in the OP were updated? (If they're still viable links, I haven't tried them in over a year)


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Is there a recent copy hosted online anywhere? Mine is woefully out of date as well. (Not that I'm not tempted to wait for the new version, but I have a new group and I really want to try running the current KF for them.)

Just the old one -- it ended up all over ScribDB as soon as it hit the web, and I'm not keen on having that happen again -- the stuff I make up is for home use.

I can forward you the 10/2013 version easily enough, if you'd like.


I don't really see how that's not home use, but fair enough Kirth.

EDIT: sorry about the ninja edit, here, have another.

I'd love an email of the October version. Let me know if you need my email again.


Did Kirthfinder modify spell templates? I'm thinking about implementing 4th edition spell templates (ie square fireball etc) in my home games for convenience and I'd be interested in seeing how KF handles it.


I've never played 4e, so I have no idea, mechanically, how spell templates work.
Metamagic feats (including Shape Spell) can be found in Chapter 7.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Let me know if you need my email again.

I can't seem to put my finger on it, so, yeah, that would be a help. Thanks!


Kirth Gersen wrote:

I've never played 4e, so I have no idea, mechanically, how spell templates work.

Metamagic feats (including Shape Spell) can be found in Chapter 7.

Diagonal movement in 4E was measure in the same amount of squares as straight movement, so the grid template for a circular AoE was a square. Basically, there was no hypotenuse in 4E, because they felt the calculations for grid movement were too complicated. (Please don't yell at me, it wasn't my idea; remember when one of D&D's selling point was that it encouraged kids to do well in math?)


PM'd you my email Kirth.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
PM'd you my email Kirth.

Thanks! I'll send you some new stuff tonight.


Kirth, sent you a PM with my email. Looking forward to reading over the newest version.


Kirth Gersen wrote:

I've never played 4e, so I have no idea, mechanically, how spell templates work.

Metamagic feats (including Shape Spell) can be found in Chapter 7.

I ran into a bit of a brick wall the other day when I had a level 1 druid in my party. Have you ever tried to draw the Entangle 40-ft radius spread on a battle mat?

I find the 3.x templates time-consuming to draw, especially with bigger templates, so I was wondering if that was something Kirthfinder had touched on. :)

Like Hitdice explained, there is no penalty for diagonal movement in 4th edition so a fireball template that used to look like this would instead simply be a 4 by 4 square.

Near as I can tell the ruling would make diagnonal movement cost the same as normal movement, and AoE spells would grow slightly larger on average.

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