Kirthfinder - World of Warriorcraft Houserules


Homebrew and House Rules

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Everything wasn't there the first time I looked, but it's all there now.


Everything was there like the day after I looked. All in all, decent changes, but I notice that since domain abilities are replaced with domain feats, the Domain Access feat is a little bit weaker now, since it doesn't actually give you a domain feat, just the ability to select domain feats.

I'm attempting to remake Eshkeval, since I really like the character and still have hope that we might one day continue the game. At any rate, I'm realizing that my entire modus operandi of casting, where I store my "spells" as pictures in my sketchbook and then produce them as cards, is basically the exact same thing as Runic Spell Metamagic, which is now a Domain Feat for the Rune Domain.

So in order to better approximate the idea for my character, it seems like the best thing for me to do, would be to take the Rune domain at Level 1, and then simply retrain the domain when I get to level 5 (and get Rune Domain for free, as an Archivist).

The change to Silent Spell and verbal components, allowing a free quicken effect on spells that only target me (ignoring the action for other components), makes this rather useful for me, especially given the fact that my Sleight of Hand check is high enough to pull out material components as a free action.

The problem with this though, is that it locks me out of taking the Magic Domain (which means no ritual teleportation unless I look into further metamagic cost reducers). This is especially an issue if I need to take Domain Access for something like the Time Domain, in order to keep up my cantrip versions of create food and create water respectively.

Which brings up another thing. Archivists gain a Domain Feat from each of their class-granted domains as soon as they first get them, right? So at level 1, I'd have 2 Domain feats, one from the Knowledge Domain and one from a Domain of my choice.

If I take Domain Access, I can replace the Domain feat from the Knowledge Domain with the Domain feat for the domain I've chosen with Domain Access, correct? This way, I can take Domain Access: Time and still keep access to Extend Spell Metamagic, which is one of the Time Domain's Domain feats.

My last question is on Domain spells. Do I get 1 extra spell known from each of my domains, or do I only get 1 extra spell know period, and must choose from each domain which spell that will be?


Kaouse wrote:
Do I get 1 extra spell known from each of my domains, or do I only get 1 extra spell know period, and must choose from each domain which spell that will be?

You get one bonus domain spell for each spell level. It can be filled with any spell from a domain to which you have access, and you can change that selection every day when you prepare spells.


Ok, this is the updated Eshkeval, I think.

Eshkeval, Level 2, Renewed:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Male Human Archivist 2
Init +4; Senses: Perception +3
Languages: Common
AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 13 (+4 Dex, +3 insight)
hp 13 (2 HD; LW 9/HW 3/Dead -14); Hero Points 1 + 1*
Fort +3, Ref +5, Int +6, Will +6
Spd 30 ft.
Melee: dagger +1 (1d4, 19-20)
Ranged: bolt of force +4 touch (1d6 force)
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 14
Special Atks: channel positive energy 6/day (1d6, DC 14), Lore Keeper (DC 20 Knowledge results by touch)
Domains: Knowledge*, Rune
Spells Known [In Spell Book / Prayer Book]
1st (3 base + 1 Level Up + 2 Domain = 6 total)
--> Bestow Feat
--> Creation
--> Dimensional Skip (Arcane)
--> Remove Condition
DK> Location Loresight (AUG)
DM> Bolt of Force
DR> Trigger Rune (RR)

0 Level (4 seed spells + Domain Spells)
--> Attribute Boost
--> Blessing
--> Light
--> Wisp
DK> Lore Keeper (CRB)
DM> Dispel
DR> Copy (CWH)

Divine Spells Prepared (CL 2)
1st (DC 14, check +5)— 1(base) + 1(domain) + 1(WIS)
-Runic [0] Location Loresight*
-Runic [0] Location Loresight*
-<Intentionally Left Blank>

0 (at will, DC 13, check +7)—4
-Runic [0] Lore Keeper
-Runic [0] Extended [-1] Create (Food)
-Runic [0] Ritual [-1] Dimensional Skip
-Runic [0] Ritual [-1] Bolt of Force

Attributes: Str 10, Dex 17(18), Con 12(14), Int 11(12), Wis 16, Cha 15(16)
SQ: activate scrolls, wands, etc.
Feats: Canny Defense*[Prof.], Racial Heritage (Defiant Luck)[HRF1], Skill Focus* (Fine Art)[HRF2], Skill Synergy* (Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft)[HRT], Domain Access (Magic)[LVL1], Extend Spell*[DF1a], Runic Spell*[DF1b], Ritual Spell*[BF2]
Skills: Concentration* (2/+8), Craft* (fine arts) (2/+8), Knowledge* (linguistics, lore, the planes) (2/+6), Heal (2/+8), Sleight of Hand (2/+8), Spellcraft (2/+8)

Possessions: PC gear (mojo 3000; min. 780, par 1000): Pen of Creation & Destruction [Holy Symbol], Card Binder [Spell book / Prayer book]
Overflow (2000; max. 3,000): 1000 (+1 Enhancement bonus to DEX)
1000 (+1 Enhancement bonus to INT), 1000 (+1 Enhancement bonus to CHA)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I got rid of Domain Access (Time) in favor of Domain Access (Magic) as my Level 1 Feat. This way I could stick with the Arcane version of Dimensional Skip, which turned out to be pretty instrumental to the story, IIRC.

It's Domain Feats include "Any [Arcane] Feat," which I believe includes Metamagic. Thus at first level, when I get 1 Domain Feat from each of my Domains, I replaced the Domain Feat I got from the Knowledge Domain with the Domain Feat I get from the Magic Domain, choosing Extend Spell Metamagic.

Now, I don't think Domain Access gives me the Archivist skill for the Domain, so I need to get rid of Planar Sense in order to maintain my Spellcraft. At level 5, when I get the Rune Domain for free, I'll retrain my level 1 Domain back to the Magic Domain, at which point I can choose Domain Access (Time) instead.

For offense, I'm using a Runic Ritual Bolt of Force as a cantrip attack. This replaces the Magic Domain's Arcane Bolt reserve ability as a spammable attack. Also, I noticed Lore Keeper seems to be a spell now, so it's the spell I chose for the Knowledge Domain. That said,I got rid of Create Water for it. I mean, creating Watermelon is basically the same thing as creating water, right? At least for the purpose of sustenance, right?

At any rate, I think that's about it. Let me know if this all works out the way I envision, or if I made a mistake somewhere.


Actually, wait a minute. I just looked into the spellcasting section again and I noticed that the section on bonus spells for high attribute mentions this:

Quote:
You gain additional spells prepared (if a prepared caster) or spells per day (if spontaneous) for a high spellcasting attribute (+1 per level of spells you are able to cast, to a maximum level equal to your spellcasting attribute modifier).

What does this mean, exactly? Do I get a number of bonus spells up to my Casting Mod, split up among the spells I have access to? Do I decide that split?

Right now, Eshkeval has a casting mod of +3. This means he gets 3 extra spells per day, right? And he can decide where those extra spells go (i.e. 3 0-level vs 2 0-level & 1 1-level vs 1 0 level & 2 1-level vs 3 1-level). Is that correct?

If so, that's pretty cool. I could definitely get Create Water then, and still have 2 more slots for 1st level spells.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hmm...alternatively, the most conservative interpretation is that you only ever get +1 spell per level, regardless of how high your modifier gets. So with a +9 spellcasting modifier, I'd only ever have +1 to each spell level by the time I get 9th level spells. A spellcasting modifier any higher than +9 does nothing for me, under this interpretation.

Furthermore, having a mod higher than +1 does nothing for me at levels 1-2, since I only ever get a +1 for my level 1 (and level 0) spells. In other words, there's zero benefit (as far as spells per day are concerned) to having a spellcasting mod higher than your maximum spell level, if this interpretation is correct.

There's also the least conservative interpretation, wherein I get + casting mod spells for every level of spell I have access to, but the more I thought about Kirthfinder's design philosophy of reigning in caster supremacy, the less I thought this was the case.

Either way, Eshkeval should still get 1 bonus level 0 spell, which will be spent on Create Water. Now that I think about it though, since Domains now have level 0 spells, should level 0 spells now also gain a "+1" bonus spell slot?


I'm guessing that the Favorite on my post from Kirth Gersen is affirmation that my thinking was correct. Ok. In other news, I'm noticing that it seems as if Magical talent and Magical Talent Array have somewhat subsumed a bunch of the old Reserve feats. I don't particularly have a problem with this, but there was this section here that I'm not 100% on:

Magical Talent wrote:
Alternatively, you can increase the spell level as you gain ranks in Concentration, by adding various Metamagic effects (Chapter 8) to the base spell-like ability. You need not know the metamagic feats in question in order to improve an existing magical talent.

Just to clarify, I can choose a specific Magical Talent, then apply whatever Metamagic I want to it without even knowing the metamagic feat first?

So, if I took Magical talent: Lore Keeper as a feat, then at 2nd level, I'd be able to apply "Reach Spell" to it, changing the range from touch range to close range, right? And I wouldn't need to actually know Reach Spell Metamagic in order to do it. Could I also apply more than one metamagic feat without knowing it? Could I apply Metamagic feats with a negative cost to increase the amount of times I can use it per day?

Furthermore, what happens in the case of something like Magical Talent: Metaphysical Feat? Do I still need the Metamagic Feats for the spell to work?

And while we're on the subject, is it just me or is Augment Spell something of a feat tax? Wouldn't it be better to have the spell augmentations tied directly to Heightening?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kaouse wrote:
And while we're on the subject, is it just me or is Augment Spell something of a feat tax? Wouldn't it be better to have the spell augmentations tied directly to Heightening?

If I understood it correctly while building Kolmac's spells out, Augment effects listed as part of the spell seed (e.g. changing the brightness of a light spell) do not require the Augment Spell feat to use. The Augment Spell feat is a separate effect that modifies scaling numerical effects.


Kaouse wrote:

this section here that I'm not 100% on:

Magical Talent wrote:
Alternatively, you can increase the spell level as you gain ranks in Concentration, by adding various Metamagic effects (Chapter 8) to the base spell-like ability. You need not know the metamagic feats in question in order to improve an existing magical talent.
Just to clarify, I can choose a specific Magical Talent, then apply whatever Metamagic I want to it without even knowing the metamagic feat first?

Yes. In essence, you are retraining your magical talent, which is consistent with the retraining guidelines in Chapter 1.


Vil-hatarn wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
And while we're on the subject, is it just me or is Augment Spell something of a feat tax? Wouldn't it be better to have the spell augmentations tied directly to Heightening?
If I understood it correctly while building Kolmac's spells out, Augment effects listed as part of the spell seed (e.g. changing the brightness of a light spell) do not require the Augment Spell feat to use. The Augment Spell feat is a separate effect that modifies scaling numerical effects.

Okay, I looked at it again and it seems like you are right on this. But now I have to wonder, what exactly does the Augment Spell metamagic do? As far as I can gather, isn't it just the same as Heighten Spell? Except Heighten can now be done for free, meaning Augment Spell...doesn't actually do anything?

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

this section here that I'm not 100% on:

Magical Talent wrote:
Alternatively, you can increase the spell level as you gain ranks in Concentration, by adding various Metamagic effects (Chapter 8) to the base spell-like ability. You need not know the metamagic feats in question in order to improve an existing magical talent.
Just to clarify, I can choose a specific Magical Talent, then apply whatever Metamagic I want to it without even knowing the metamagic feat first?
Yes. In essence, you are retraining your magical talent, which is consistent with the retraining guidelines in Chapter 1.

But the retraining guidelines also look poorly on switching elemental attacks without a decent story-based reason; yet is there anything stopping me from taking a direct damage evocation as a Magical talent and then applying the effects of Versatile Evocation to it freely?

Not that I'm against it, of course. I just want to make sure that my understanding of things is at 100%, especially because I convinced a GM I know to allow me to play a Kirthfinder character in their game.

In my head, I have this scenario of a level 20 caster with Bolt of Force going around spamming Heightened, Level 3 10d6 blasts at will, but then when they feel like cutting loose a bit, they Heighten the spell to 5th level for a 15d6 blast 3 times per day, and then even further than that for a 20d6 blast once per day. And then you could presumably add 5d6 to each one of those endpoints with Feat Mastery, getting a "caster level" of 25.

Definitely not bad, IMHO. Sort of helps with Spells per day.


So now that I think about it, the most optimal thing for any caster who gets "Bolt of Force" as a 1st level spell to do, is to take it as a Magical Talent, then apply Feat Mastery to it.

With just those two feats alone, you can basically handle almost any combat situation. Thanks to Feat Mastery, you have an effective 6 Concentration ranks, which not only is just enough to use a 1st level spell at will, but is also enough for the spell to hit it's damage cap of 5d6 damage, since Concentration ranks also double as caster level.

So at level 1, you have a spammable attack that deals 5d6 force damage - quite significant for this level!

This is especially powerful since you can apply metamagic to it spontaneously, without even knowing the metamagic in question. If I face enemies with a specific weakness and I have made the proper checks to identify them, I can automatically target their weakness with Versatile Evocation.

Moreover, since Bolt of Force deals force damage, changing the damage type actually decreases it's effective level, allowing you to stick on other metamagic basically for free. This is especially useful if you use it to apply the effects of Still Spell metamagic. With no material component and no somatic component, the spell like ability is effectively cast with only a single partial action, straight from level 1.

Or, if I wanted to, I could apply Versatile Evocation to turn it from Force into something mundane, like bludgeoning, then spend an extra action on Ritual spell, but then also apply the effects of something like Maximize Spell, for 30 damage at level 1. Or I could make it a burst effect with Shape Spell. Again, all at level 1, and all for the low cost of two feats (though admittedly these actions are spread over two rounds, which is actually really cool as a "gathering power" mechanic).

Granted, people who don't have bolt of force as a level 1 spell are quite a bit more limited in terms of the upper limit of what they can pull off, but it's still really strong, IMHO. And it just gets stronger at later levels with more metamagic you can pump it with. Again, I don't have a problem with it, I just want to make sure I have this right.


Just a heads up, the current Magic Domain Variant Channeling seems to be a bit jumbled up. It's seemingly a mix of the old Magic Domain channeling (the counterspelling one) and the old Mystic Domain channeling (which allowed Metamagic on Channel Energy and allowed Eldritch Blast stuff to work with it).

Spoiler:
Current Magic Domain Variant Channel wrote:

Variant Channeling: You can channel arcane energy as an immediate action in order to counterspell. Each time, you can counterspell any arcane spell of level equal to or lower than your You can apply any metamagic feats you know to your channeled energy, with no increase in activation time. Doing so reduces the number of channeling dice by a number equal to the final spell level increase of the metamagic applied.

If you have the eldritch blast ability (see Sorcerer, q.v.) and you channel energy of the same energy type, you can apply your improved blast and greater blast improvements (and any other Innate Metamagic feats you have that apply to your eldritch blast) to your channeled energy as well, without reducing the number of channeling dice.

For reference, here's the older versions of both Domains:

Spoiler:
Old Magic Domain wrote:


Variant Channeling: You can channel arcane energy as an immediate action in order to counterspell. Each time, you can counterspell any arcane spell of level equal to or lower than your number of channeling dice (so at 19th level you can counterspell even epic spells in this manner). You need not know the exact spell you are attempting to interfere with; you simply channel the held energy and roll 1d20 + your channeling level + your Charisma bonus. If this check equals or exceeds a DC of 11 + the number of ranks in Concentration of the spell’s caster, the spell is countered and does not take effect. This option supersedes the divine counterspell variant class feature, from Complete Mage.
Old Mystic Domain wrote:

Variant Channeling: You can apply any metamagic feats you know to your channeled energy, with no increase in activation time. Doing so reduces the number of channeling dice by a number equal to the final spell level increase of the metamagic applied.

If you have the eldritch blast ability (see Sorcerer, q.v.) and you channel energy of the same energy type, you can apply your improved blast and greater blast improvements (and any other Innate Metamagic feats you have that apply to your eldritch blast) to your channeled energy as well, without reducing the number of channeling dice.

It's just weird that the current Magic Domain cuts off randomly, that's all.

Also, in a completely unrelated note, the NPC classes are nowhere to be found anymore.


Kaouse wrote:
But now I have to wonder, what exactly does the Augment Spell metamagic do? As far as I can gather, isn't it just the same as Heighten Spell? Except Heighten can now be done for free, meaning Augment Spell...doesn't actually do anything?

Incorrect. Say I have a 3rd level, multi-target evocation spell (damage cap 10d6). If I Augment it (+1 level), it's now 4th level (damage cap 15d6). I'd have to Heighten it to 5th level to get the same effect.


Kaouse wrote:
Moreover, since Bolt of Force deals force damage, changing the damage type actually decreases it's effective level...

You seem to be interpreting something that isn't there.

If changing electricity to force costs +2 levels, that in no way implies that the reverse results in -2 levels. In fact, there are a number of cases where this explicitly doesn't follow.


Kaouse wrote:

So now that I think about it, the most optimal thing for any caster who gets "Bolt of Force" as a 1st level spell to do, is to take it as a Magical Talent, then apply Feat Mastery to it.

I don't think this would fly. Magical Talent specifies that the spell comes from a primary class list, and Bolt of Force is only available as a level 1 spell to certain specialist and variant casters.


Thanks for answering my questions.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
But now I have to wonder, what exactly does the Augment Spell metamagic do? As far as I can gather, isn't it just the same as Heighten Spell? Except Heighten can now be done for free, meaning Augment Spell...doesn't actually do anything?
Incorrect. Say I have a 3rd level, multi-target evocation spell (damage cap 10d6). If I Augment it (+1 level), it's now 4th level (damage cap 15d6). I'd have to Heighten it to 5th level to get the same effect.

Okay, after reading this and reading Augment Spell again, I think I understand it now.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
Moreover, since Bolt of Force deals force damage, changing the damage type actually decreases it's effective level...

You seem to be interpreting something that isn't there.

If changing electricity to force costs +2 levels, that in no way implies that the reverse results in -2 levels. In fact, there are a number of cases where this explicitly doesn't follow.

Ah, this is interesting. Not being able to use Versatile Evocation in reverse significantly cuts down on the metamagic shenanigans that can be done with this idea. Especially since you can't use it to apply Somatic Spell and get around the action economy.

Still, at it's core, Magical talent + Feat Mastery gives a level 1 caster a 5d6 force damage at will SLA, which is definitely still useful (especially at level 1), but does also definitely fall off as the character levels up, due to the caps on damaging evocations.

I am sort of interested in how Versatile Evocation gets applied to Bolt of Force, though I guess once you deal Force damage, there's no real point in downgrading.

Vil-hatarn wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

So now that I think about it, the most optimal thing for any caster who gets "Bolt of Force" as a 1st level spell to do, is to take it as a Magical Talent, then apply Feat Mastery to it.

I don't think this would fly. Magical Talent specifies that the spell comes from a primary class list, and Bolt of Force is only available as a level 1 spell to certain specialist and variant casters.

Archivist gets Bolt of Force as a Magic domain spell, and are outright encouraged to use Magical Talent for their domain spells. Indeed, with the recent update, all previous domain abilities have been replaced with domain spells and domain feats.

That said, this might be something unique to Archivist, since it also seems to imply that you can take Magical Talent and Magical Talent Array more than once, which does not inherently appear to be the case. Though there's always the possibility that I'm reading things wrong.


Re: NPC classes, as of a couple years ago, I had final versions of the Adept and Warrior, and a mostly-complete Aristocrat. I... have no idea what happened to them. Mea culpa.


Currently, I'm updating a lot of monsters that were converted before the standardized spell construction rules were finalized. Slaadi and kuo-toa have been uploaded.


I'm pretty sure I still have access to the NPC classes before the last update. I think I saved everything from the last update on my prior computer. I'll see what I can do about posting them.


Kaouse wrote:
I'm pretty sure I still have access to the NPC classes before the last update. I think I saved everything from the last update on my prior computer. I'll see what I can do about posting them.

That would be awesome - thanks!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Currently, I'm updating a lot of monsters that were converted before the standardized spell construction rules were finalized.

Vermin are done.


And Plants.


Adept: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIdDEycWRLaU1tNmM/view?usp=shari ng

Warrior: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIdDEycWRLaU1tNmM/view?usp=shari ng

These both show a last updated date of July 2017.


Caedwyr wrote:

Adept: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIdDEycWRLaU1tNmM/view?usp=shari ng

Warrior: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIdDEycWRLaU1tNmM/view?usp=shari ng

These both show a last updated date of July 2017.

Thanks!


Caedwyr wrote:

Adept: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIdDEycWRLaU1tNmM/view?usp=shari ng

Warrior: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIdDEycWRLaU1tNmM/view?usp=shari ng

These both show a last updated date of July 2017.

Can you repost the warrior URL? The one above is the adept again.


Aberrations have been updated.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Caedwyr wrote:

Adept: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIdDEycWRLaU1tNmM/view?usp=shari ng

Warrior: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIdDEycWRLaU1tNmM/view?usp=shari ng

These both show a last updated date of July 2017.

Can you repost the warrior URL? The one above is the adept again.

Sorry about that. Here is the warrior document.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Q3BFJuenqIYXNKc1RxS0g3MWM/view?usp=shari ng


Caedwyr wrote:
Here is the warrior document.

Thanks! Warrior and Adept updated and uploaded, and I added a draft Aristocrat.

Also, I caught some errors in the intellect devourer and fixed those.


I have a question. I think there was a section stating that Rays and spells that produce weapons can count as weapons themselves. Can I use my numen to give my ray spells an enhancement bonus to attack and damage?


Another question, Fighter's "Personal Weapon" talent now allows for them to select Armor and Shields as scaling magic items. Personal Weapon is also called out in Chapter 6 as being one of the ways you can get a "numen refund" or some such by trading in unwanted enhancement bonuses. Do you still use the same listed numen values per enhancement bonus cost, even though Armor enhancement is less expensive than weapon enhancement?


Kaouse wrote:
I have a question. I think there was a section stating that Rays and spells that produce weapons can count as weapons themselves. Can I use my numen to give my ray spells an enhancement bonus to attack and damage?

Yes


Kaouse wrote:
Another question, Fighter's "Personal Weapon" talent now allows for them to select Armor and Shields as scaling magic items. Personal Weapon is also called out in Chapter 6 as being one of the ways you can get a "numen refund" or some such by trading in unwanted enhancement bonuses. Do you still use the same listed numen values per enhancement bonus cost, even though Armor enhancement is less expensive than weapon enhancement?

Ooh, good catch! No, if you trade in armor enhancements, they should be scaled down accordingly.


Thanks for answering my questions!

One more question, what are the rules for using Hero Points to obtain feats? It doesn't seem to be listed in the introduction page, but it was something you allowed me to do in Sovalles, and I think there are other systems of "Fate Points" and whatnot that do something similar.

I just want to know what the limitations and duration are, mostly.


The Tenebrous Bloodline for sorcerer mentions a Shadow Step feat that doesn't show up anywhere else.


Insignium wrote:
The Tenebrous Bloodline for sorcerer mentions a Shadow Step feat that doesn't show up anywhere else.

It was formerly a [reserve] feat that got simply turned into a magical talent; you can see the spell construction in Chapter 8A. On that note, all the bloodline abilities are due for an overhaul the way the cleric domain powers were re-done.


Kaouse wrote:

One more question, what are the rules for using Hero Points to obtain feats? It doesn't seem to be listed in the introduction page, but it was something you allowed me to do in Sovalles, and I think there are other systems of "Fate Points" and whatnot that do something similar.

I just want to know what the limitations and duration are, mostly.

That's something I've been meaning to add and haven't quite gotten to it. If we look at the Fighter's grit, it can simulate a [combat] feat for 1 rd./level. For a hero point, there would obviously not be the combat-only limitation; as a balancing factor, maybe the feat applies for 1 rd. only.


Uploaded a brief intro to the Bestiary that hopefully will shed light on some monster conversion considerations. Now I'm going through all the monsters to check for compliance. Damn, this will take a while!


I've looked at this rule set with a lot of interest for a few years and piped up here in the comments thread before -- your new note about an orientation to monster building piqued my attention because that is one of the main areas I feel I don't have a good grasp on looking at your files.

Can you "explain it to me like I'm 5" how the monster rules differ from the base game, and how the entries work -- for instance, I don't see rules for all age categories of dragons, but there are examples of dragons with class levels and templates. Is there a base chassis and then this is just an example of a build option -- do they all work like that?

I'm imagining trying to pull these rules out to DM w/ in the future, but this uncertainty about the bestiary is my big obstacle to figuring out how that would work.


Sebecloki wrote:
For instance, I don't see rules for all age categories of dragons, but there are examples of dragons with class levels and templates. Is there a base chassis and then this is just an example of a build option -- do they all work like that?

Dragons are probably the worst example -- I started with them, had some ideas, quickly lost interest and went on to other, more interesting (to me) creature types. But, yes, the intent was that you'd start with the True Dragon template, then add racial HD and/or sorcerer levels (and size increases via the Giant simple template, and attribute boosts via the Advanced simple template) to taste -- no rigid progression of age categories. That way you could have, for example, non-spellcasting dragons, etc.


Sebecloki wrote:
uncertainty about the bestiary is my big obstacle to figuring out how that would work.

I sympathize. As I said above, the 1st draft monsters were made before the standardized spell construction rules, and before I had a clear idea where I was headed -- notice how giants and constructs have different systems than, say, aberrations and monstrous humanoids. I'm working now on revising the entire Bestiary to make everything compliant with the Intro.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:
uncertainty about the bestiary is my big obstacle to figuring out how that would work.
I sympathize. As I said above, the 1st draft monsters were made before the standardized spell construction rules, and before I had a clear idea where I was headed -- notice how giants and constructs have different systems than, say, aberrations and monstrous humanoids. I'm working now on revising the entire Bestiary to make everything compliant with the Intro.

Is there any way to summarize these categories? For example, now I think I understand from your comments that dragons are a base chasis + a template + other templates and or class levels, right? Are giants built the same way? Is every creature 'type' -- aberration etc., -- now a template?


Sebecloki wrote:
Is there any way to summarize these categories? For example, now I think I understand from your comments that dragons are a base chasis + a template + other templates and or class levels, right?

If you want to force them into a rigid progression, go right ahead. As a referee, I'd rather be able to say, "You know, what I really need is a Medium dragon with good combat stats and no sorcerer spellcasting," and be able to build that, and know what the end CR is, without someone telling me I'm not allowed to. That said, just for you, I'm working on a revised Dragons document that will lay out a suggested progression that comes close to the SRD/Bestiary, with notes that there are any number of other allowable progressions as well.

Sebecloki wrote:
Are giants built the same way? Is every creature 'type' -- aberration etc., -- now a template?

One size doesn't fit all; see individual monster types. The main "Giants" document tells you how to build giants. The "Monstrous Humanoids" document tells you how to build monstrous humanoids. The "Aberrations" document tells you how to build aberrations. They all provide examples as well.


If that's all still too daunting, just use the monster stats I've already derived. The Bestiary section of the KF rules has hundreds if not thousands of monsters already converted and waiting for use. Some of them might change a little as I standardize things, but they should all at least be playable.


Thanks for your reply -- that does clear things up a bit w/ the understanding that the different monster classes are built different ways.

I am going to try to go back and grok the system a bit more to see if I can get a good enough grasp on it to DM it at some point.

You already know this, but this really is an extremely impressive body of material. It's like a version of Pathfinder 1e where all the legendary games talent tree classes are in the core rule book.


I'm currently playing a version of Eshkeval in another game, wherein my extremely permissive GM has allowed the use of Kirthfinder in his "tiered gestalt" game (for balance reasons, I'm gestalt with a Warrior NPC).

I'm noticing that I can't easily dump any of my stats...with the notable exception of Strength. My damage comes from my spells, and I don't wear armor since I have Canny Defense (and Dodge).

That got me thinking...how can we make STR more important, and less easy to dump? So what I came up with, is this:

Your STR-mod now subtracts from each damage instance you take. A negative STR-mod will actually make you take more damage. This stacks with all DR and ER.

This makes STR based characters more hardy in combat, and penalizes people who dump it. Now, STR is more useful for every class, and super flavorful as well.

What do you think?


Kaouse wrote:
That got me thinking...how can we make STR more important, and less easy to dump?

My usual go-to is to actually track encumbrance. Yes, you can get a mindless grunt to carry stuff for you, but that only reinforces the whole trope of "wizard-relies-heavily-on-mundanes" that's sort of baked into the rules.


The issue with that is, encumbrance isn't a particularly huge deal in Kirthfinder.

I don't particularly need armor with Canny Defense, and I don't even need a ton of items since Kirthfinder lets me stack every bonus possible on a single item. Like, aside from my prayer book and my holy symbol pen, I don't actually carry any weight at all.

Furthermore, since numen is separate from gold, it's also not particularly important to have somebody to collect and carry "loot" from adventures.

In short, while every other stat gained increased importance between Pathfinder and Kirthfinder, Strength arguably gained a decreased importance.

My solution would make STR more important to people who don't care about making melee attacks or dealing weapon damage - a significant portion of characters, I think.


Solid points that bear thinking on.


I'd also like to say that giving STR as DR/- might also help mitigate some of the late game rocket tag inherent to Pathfinder (and likely exacerbated by Kirthfinder, if we're being honest).

We could also make it so that STR only reduces physical damage while INT reduces magic damage. This way, every stat plays a direct role in a character's defenses.

This could be justified as saying that STR allows you to physically tense up your body on reaction to being hit, with higher STR allowing for greater tension, and thus greater damage reduction. Whereas INT allows you to analyze a magic attack and pinpoint where the attack is weakest and thus orient yourself in the best possible way to mitigate damage. The higher your INT, the faster and more effective you are at mitigating magic damage.


Sebecloki wrote:
Is there any way to summarize these categories? For example, now I think I understand from your comments that dragons are a base chasis + a template + other templates and or class levels, right?

Dragons are done. I've put considerable work into this project to try and reconcile the Kirthfinder monster creation rules with the "official" 3.5/PF dragons, and I think I've achieved a good match. I also went ahead and updated all of the other creatures in the "Dragons" subfolder. I really like the linnorms, including the wormdrake from the Age of Worms AP.

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