Tahlreth wrote: Changing Flurry of Blows from a feat synergy into a sutra doesn't really help facilitate multiclassing, and I'm still trying to figure out if the extra benefits you're adding onto it is enough of an increase in worth to validate it being a class feature rather than a feat. But I see your point about needing to make its availability obvious. Hmm....
Compromise -Take 3-
Two-Weapon Fighting feat:
Add "You may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for attacks with weapons that permit those maneuvers as part of a flurry of blows," to the end of the synergy entry with Monk.
Flurry of Blows sutra: Change base effect to "You gain Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites."
Fighter talents - advanced
Flurry of Blows
Benefit: You gain Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat, and gain the synergy benefit as if you were a Monk. While performing a Flurry of Blows, you lose the bonus to AC from any shield you have equipped (except for a buckler if you have at least martial proficiency with it).
Regarding the Flurry of Blows Sutra: Good take.
Regarding Two-Weapon Fighting: I'd rather not have class-specific synergy aspects, except where class features modify existing abilities:Weapon Training/Opportune Strike.
We could take the same approach, and avoid the Monk Sutra path, and allow the Synergy aspect to activate for monks once they gain Unarmed Mastery.
Yes, this makes multiclassers require four levels in Monk before accessing a theoretically 1st-level ability. Alternatively, the Flurry of Blows synergy aspect could activate on Ki attack. This keeps the multiclassing/base class aspect intact, and the feat does not upgrade on specific classes, but on specific class features.
I have another take on the Flurry of Blows Sutra, if it is still reasonable.
Flurry of Blows (Ex):
You gain [Two-Weapon Fighting] as a bonus feat. You can also utilize Two-Weapon Fighting with any combination of weapon/unarmed attacks, and apply the [Two-Weapon Fighting] feat even without using two weapons. You can also substitute combat maneuvers as part of the usage of Two-Weapon Fighting instead of the normal bonus attacks you gain from the feat.
Improved: You gain [Improved Two-Weapon Fighting] as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.
Greater: You gain a bonus equal to +1 to all CMB and CMD checks when executing a Flurry of Blows, with an additional +1 per every four Monk levels.
Superior: While executing a Flurry of Blows, you may gain +1 deflection bonus per every three Monk levels to your AC.
Sublime: With each additional successful hit during a Flurry of Blows, you deal an additional +1d6 per hit, until you miss an attack.
Tahlreth wrote: On a side note, I noticed Sudden Jump is a Monk cantrip. I've since then been wondering how your Improve Skill spell works. Improve Skill provides a bonus to the 'chosen skill,' but when do you choose, when you cast it or when you learn it? If you choose when you cast it, it'd need a use restriction to keep the Monk from using Sudden Jump as a Sudden Read Magic or something. Would adding "choose a class skill you are trained in" be enough? The standard assumption is that it has to be learned, I suppose. Having a focus on skills that depend on physical attributes (Sudden Endurance/Sudden Climb/Sudden Escape Artist) seems like one way to go, if you do not want the Monk to be a versatile skill monkey (which they don't seem to be).
Arrius wrote: Regarding Two-Weapon Fighting: I'd rather not have class-specific synergy aspects, except where class features modify existing abilities:Weapon Training/Opportune Strike. Does this mean I should brace myself of you submitting similar changes to the dozen other feats that also have class-specific synergy aspects?
Tahlreth wrote: Does this mean I should brace myself of you submitting similar changes to the dozen other feats that also have class-specific synergy aspects? Not strictly my intention (though you may brace away), as I feel that Flurry of Blows is the worst offender here.
Theoretical example, Having a class feature like Unarmed Mastery specifically state: [If you also possess Versatile Unarmed Combat, you may also add twice your Strength modifier to unarmed strikes.]
Basically, instead of having the aspect of synergy spelled out in the Feat document, have it spelled out in each individual class document.
As for the feats referenced by you, they are all easily adjudicated.
Leadership synergy with Fighter starts with the acquisition of the Warlord class feature.
Magical Talent for weapon-like spells starts with Versatile Weapon Use (though I feel it better be a general ability. What kind of magus won't want a lightsaber?).
Dodge come as standard Monk/Barbarian variant armor proficiencies, and Dodge to flat-footed with Monks, and Dodge to Barbarians with shields (+dodge bonus to saves vs. fear) is also treated the same way.
Overall, this direction I take is largely inconsequential.
It matters little whether the aspect of synergy is inside which document. I referenced Flurry of Blows specifically because I felt the huge gap between the use of essentially one game mechanic at level 11 for the Fighter. Meanwhile, Monks get it at any level, except that it is not stated outright in their own file.
Doesn't this make a Fighter's 1 level dip into Monk essentially 'cheating', in a way? Why use an Advanced Fighter Talent to gain an ability you would gain anyway with one level in Monk(especially with Ascetic Monk's full synergy with Fighters anyway, and their ability to choose a Fighter Talent instead of a Sutra, or vice versa)?
Besides, the Monk's Flurry of Blows is better than the Fighter's Flurry of Blows (no restriction on weapon type or maneuvers allowed).
Now, with that said, I do not object for classes to have better options than other classes. If anything, I'm all for it. I just see an easily rectifiable area in a game's design. Letting the monk have Flurry of Blows as a Sutra (gained at any level) is both in tune with the original Pathfinder Monk, clears any possible overlook of KF monks not having Flurry of Blows as a mechanic, and helps (again) streamline and not have random powers running around the game unchecked.
I get it now. Your focus is the disparity between a Fighter waiting until level 11, and a Fighter taking a 1 level dip in Monk at any time. I'll have to mull on that one for a while. I don't know off hand if there's a better solution to that than your sutra idea.
As for the other ways Monk's Flurry of Blows differs from Fighter's Flurry of Blows, I'm on board with fixing that part. The loss of AC bonuses from shields should be included in the Monk version. The weapon type restrictions are simple proficiency for Monk, no restriction for Fighter. As for maneuver restrictions, the only maneuvers I can find that take up an attack action are Disarm, Sunder, Trip, Bind, and Unbalance. Letting a Fighter perform a Bind or Unbalance during a Flurry would be okay, right?
I also agree Magical Talent for weapon-like spells would be better as a general ability. But given your views on weapon-like spells, I'm not sure what benefit their should be with using a lightsaber instead of a flaming sword.
Tahlreth wrote: I get it now. Your focus is the disparity between a Fighter waiting until level 11, and a Fighter taking a 1 level dip in Monk at any time. I'll have to mull on that one for a while. I don't know off hand if there's a better solution to that than your sutra idea.
As for the other ways Monk's Flurry of Blows differs from Fighter's Flurry of Blows, I'm on board with fixing that part. The loss of AC bonuses from shields should be included in the Monk version. The weapon type restrictions are simple proficiency for Monk, no restriction for Fighter. As for maneuver restrictions, the only maneuvers I can find that take up an attack action are Disarm, Sunder, Trip, Bind, and Unbalance. Letting a Fighter perform a Bind or Unbalance during a Flurry would be okay, right?
I myself am not too keen on making it a Sutra, but I find that it is the most appropriate way to take it. It is a powerful mechanic, and most of those have been rolled into the Kirthfinder Class Choice Basket (see Sutras, Fighter Talents, Rogue Talents, etc.)
Another take would have Unarmed Mastery modify it appropriately.
That would still leave the valid concern regarding multiclassing. I personally really like to design characters, and have about 41 KF characters min-maxed with various character concepts.
Making some characters (such as one Inquisitor and another Alchemist) in tune with their original class has been a challenge for the most part when it came to multiclassing for fun and profit.
Tahlreth wrote: I also agree Magical Talent for weapon-like spells would be better as a general ability. But given your views on weapon-like spells, I'm not sure what benefit their should be with using a lightsaber instead of a flaming sword. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hIDbS-x2OGU/UsjbW4lyGlI/AAAAAAAAATQ/_oRoFh6k3xw/s 1600/of+course.png
Please forget about that. I'd rather leave the Mechanized Spell for when I create guns.
Bah, this whole Flurry of Blows conundrum has me thinking in circles. We could turn it into a Sutra, but we'd be forced to bundle it with other stuff to try and make it worth spending a class-specific resource on it. We could tie it to Unarmed Mastery, but that only covers unarmed attacks, so we'd have to tie it to Weapon Form as well, but tying it to two other features like that would be, I don't know, wonky? We could tie it to Ki Attack, but that's a Spell-like Ability, so an antimagic field would shut it down, and that'd make no sense. And none of those options would fix the problem of the Fighter wanting to multiclass so they can pick it up before level 11.
I'm tempted to just take out the advanced Fighter talent and force them to multiclass anyways if they want Flurry at all, because then it technically wouldn't be cheating. Then I'd point out the Flurry synergy to Monk players by moving the Flurry synergy from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat description to the Monk's weapon proficiency entry. And maybe have Flurry be restricted to weapons the Monk has exotic proficiency with, because the Monk wouldn't care, yet multiclassers would.
As for Mechanized Spell, I'd prefer if it was an imbued-item-only thing. I'd imagine it would either become imbalanced or not make sense when it's on a spell that's prepared or spontaneously cast. But it'd work out nicely for firearms, cannons, and masterwork tools/equipment.
It is already worth spending a Sutra slot on; it can allow you to attack multiple times and substitute maneuvers with said attacks.
Alternatively, one could justify this being a feat with Two-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite. Think KF Manyshot.
Though Kirth has already expressed his disapproval in turning powerful class abilities into feats.
don't mind me, just a little dot here
Putting Flurry of Blows on hold for a moment, I'd like to add something to Tahlreth's latest version of Mystic Blast.
Update: Mystic Blast [Reserve]:
When chosen, the feat-taker can apply as many metamagic feats as they want, with the restriction that the final level of the spell is unmodified.
This allows for Winter’s Blast cone, and for the Fire Burst’s burst forms, instead of having to purchase multiple versions of Innate Metamagic.
Also wanted to put to writing Kirth's addition to Quicken Spell.
Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: Quicken spell modifies a spell’s casting time to be modified by increments.
Increments: 1 Round/Full Round = Standard/Attack Action = Move Action = Swift Action = Free Action (limit 1/round). Quicken Spell has different modifiers to spell level, from +1 to lower it from full-round to a standard (Summon Monster), or from Standard to move (Magic Missile). It modifies a spell level by +2 to lower it down two increments, and +3 for the standard Quickening.
Special: If a spell is modified to be cast quicker, does not necessarily mean that one can cast more than one spell every round. The only way to cast multiple spells is to quicken it by 3 increments.
Synergy: If a Quicken Spell is also modified by Concentration Spell, the action required to concentrate on the spell is the same action required to cast it in the first place. Limits on concentration spells still applies. I.E. One cannot maintain two Concentration Drifting Cloudkills at once. This effect does not stack with Uncanny Lies or Effortless Trickery.
Uncanny Lies [Arcane, Illusion]
Prerequisites: Spell Focus (Illusion) or the Illusion School.
Benefit: You can concentrate on an illusion as a Move action. You may use your standard and swift actions to do what you wish, including concentrate on a different spell.
• If you have access to 4th level Illusion spells, you may concentrate on an illusion as a swift action. You cannot also concentrate as a move action, but you may use your standard action to concentrate on a different spell.
• If you have access to 8th level Illusion spells, you may concentrate on an illusion as a free action. The limit of illusions you can concentrate on is 1 for every 3 spell levels you access.
Special: This feat cannot be used in conjunction with Flickering Eye, unless concentration is used as a standard, ignoring the benefits of this feat. This subsumes the gnome racial feat Effortless Trickery.
Synergy: If you are also have access to Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), you can, as a Concentration action ‘Anchor’ figmental illusions around you, allowing you to count them as ‘Drifting’ spells. These anchored spells turn the spell’s area of effect from cubes to an emanation, with a radius equaling 5 ft. x twice the spell’s level. The figments move with you, with a range limited from the original spell into the same radius of the emanation.
Source: Effortless Trickery, also inspired by the fact that illusions are centered on a point in space, contained in a volume of cubes. One can move an illusion in the ‘Spell Area’, which is limited by cubes. With this spell, an illusionary guard can take a patrol with the illusionist to an area far from the original casting point.
I just changed the "Metamagic Cost" entry for Concentration Spell:
Metamagic Cost: +2 levels if maintaining or redirecting the effect requires a standard action. If you increase the cost to +3 levels, you can maintain/redirect the spell as a move action. If you increase the cost to +4 levels, you can maintain/redirect the effect as a swift action.
I like these new changes to Mystic Blast, Quicken Spell, and Concentration Spell. I have no thoughts on Uncanny Lies.
Oh, are there any combat maneuvers other than Disarm, Sunder, Trip, Bind, and Unbalance that work with Flurry? Which ones work with a normal full-attack?
Kirth Gersen wrote: I just changed the "Metamagic Cost" entry for Concentration Spell:
Metamagic Cost: +2 levels if maintaining or redirecting the effect requires a standard action. If you increase the cost to +3 levels, you can maintain/redirect the spell as a move action. If you increase the cost to +4 levels, you can maintain/redirect the effect as a swift action.
I recall you saying that you might roll Drifting Spell with Concentration Spell. Any updates?
Tahlreth wrote: I like these new changes to Mystic Blast, Quicken Spell, and Concentration Spell. I have no thoughts on Uncanny Lies. But illusionists need something to help them with action economy.
Regardless, I wish to find a way to standardize metamagic feats when applied to Mystic Blast. Unfortunately, we do not have the feat itself [Mystic Blast] replicate a spell, which limits it to pure blasting (of course, that was the original intent).
Perhaps the improvements on Mystic Blast in the Sorcerer document can simply increase the maximum metamagic adjustment, following the same standard below:
Your eldritch blast is a wave of despair that deals nonlethal (subdual) damage. Improved blast: Fell Frighten; greater blast: those failing Will saves are panicked rather than shaken (and are still shaken on a successful save).
Sorcerer, Goblin wrote:
Eldritch Blast (Sp): Your eldritch blast is a wave of despair that deals nonlethal (subdual) damage.
Improved Blast: Fell Frighten
Greater Blast: Fell Frighten [Panicked]
Under this, I am inspired to propose these changes, which basically allows you to modify your Mystic Blast with metamagic feats:
Improved Blast: Your Mystic Blast can be modified, as long as the final level adjustment is no greater than +1.
Greater Blast: Your Mystic Blast's final metamagic adjustment is no greater than +2.
This allows for the Goblin bloodline to work normally, though other bloodlines (I'm looking at you, Arcane Bloodline Ray Splitting and Empower Spells).
Tahlreth wrote: Oh, are there any combat maneuvers other than Disarm, Sunder, Trip, Bind, and Unbalance that work with Flurry? Which ones work with a normal full-attack? Other than Grapple and Feint, I think that's all the maneuvers we have. Forcing, Wrestling, Tricky and Weapon.
Actually, I see no reason why Grapple cannot be used in the maneuver, though I don't like the idea of Feint being considered a maneuver anyway (more like a skill check).
I think Steal still exists, though it lacks support in KF, though it is technically classified under Tricky Maneuvers.
Arrius wrote: I recall you saying that you might roll Drifting Spell with Concentration Spell. Any updates? Yes; if Concentration Spell allows you to redirect the effect (e.g., target someone else with another ray), then you should also be able to use it to move an area-effect, exactly as the Drifting Spell allowed you to do.
Repeat Spell is therefore also subsumed into Concentration Spell, and Lingering Spell gets rolled into Extend Spell (create "Instantaneous" as a duration 1 step shorter than "1 round").
Unfortunately, I can't copy-paste my writeup; my home computer died this morning and will not restart.
CONCENTRATION SPELL [METAMAGIC]
With concentration, you can maintain spells beyond their normal durations.
Prerequisite: Extend Spell.
Benefit: The duration of a Concentration Spell is equal to the length of time you concentrate, plus the spell’s normal duration thereafter. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell (e.g., you are threatened and fail to cast defensively, or take damage) can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end.
For spells that would normally have an instantaneous duration, you can cast the spell or repeat the effect once per round for as long as you concentrate. For area-effect spells, you can move the effect up to 30 ft. per round while concentrating. Any portion of the area that would extend beyond your maximum range dissipates harmlessly, reducing the remaining area thereafter.
Metamagic Cost: +2 levels. By increasing the cost, you can maintain a Concentration spell more efficiently; concentrating as a move action carries a +3 cost, and concentrating as a swift action has a +4 level cost.
Regarding Wizard of High Sorcery, I am under the impression that they are full casters with no barred schools (as Generalists), but instead of school/generalist powers, they gain a bonded item that acts like another spellcaster based off charisma.
Arrius wrote: Regarding Wizard of High Sorcery, I am under the impression that they are full casters with no barred schools (as Generalists), but instead of school/generalist powers, they gain a bonded item that acts like another spellcaster based off charisma. Mechanically, that's not how they work, though. They get spells per day as a sorcerer, and from there they can pick how many "spells known" are "known" like a sorcerer's (no prep needed) or are used as prepared slots like a wizard. The bonded item is a weakness, in a sense, because if they lose it they become wizard casters, but with no other class features.
Kirth Gersen wrote: Arrius wrote: Regarding Wizard of High Sorcery, I am under the impression that they are full casters with no barred schools (as Generalists), but instead of school/generalist powers, they gain a bonded item that acts like another spellcaster based off charisma. Mechanically, that's not how they work, though. They get spells per day as a sorcerer, and from there they can pick how many "spells known" are "known" like a sorcerer's (no prep needed) or are used as prepared slots like a wizard. The bonded item is a weakness, in a sense, because if they lose it they become wizard casters, but with no other class features. That's a shame. I imagined them as wizards without any bonus spells, with their bonded items (ideally spellbooks) acting as sorcerers without any bonus spells.
Made for a good character concept, if you ask me.
Regardless, I have playtested the Sickening Strike ability, and I found it to fulfill a good part of what Kirthfinder represents; Short combat, and tactical uses of skills.
Having Sickening Strike deal con penalty and thus sickness instead of just the condition seemed overpowered at first glance, but if we tweak the numbers right (1d6 plus anything is too much), I'm sure this can end up as a good addition to the system.
Any thoughts on how we should go with Flurry of Blows, Kirth?
Honestly, I haven't given much thought to it yet. Too many other irons in the fire.
I'm still thinking that, while a nice idea in some respects, using attribute penalties to scale conditions isn't the way to go. In addition to making bookkeeping more complex and slowing game play, it has the capacity to create weird interactions with stuff like barbarian rage ("OK, I get a +3 Con bonus from rage, but a -4 temporary penalty from sickening touch, and I still have 2 Con damage from poison...").
I still like having conditions attached to attributes reduced to 1 and 0.
I still like the idea of sliding along condition tracks: shakem + shaken = frightened, etc.
I might like more freedom in creating new chains: e.g., a fear spell that inflicts shaken/dazed/panicked/paralyzed, or whatever.
I'm leaning now more towards things like "if you fail the save, you are shaken 1 round/level. If you fail by 10 or more, or are already sickened, then you are also nauseated 1 round."
Kirth Gersen wrote: I'm still thinking that, while a nice idea in some respects, using attribute penalties to scale conditions isn't the way to go. In addition to making bookkeeping more complex and slowing game play, it has the capacity to create weird interactions with stuff like barbarian rage ("OK, I get a +3 Con bonus from rage, but a -4 temporary penalty from sickening touch, and I still have 2 Con damage from poison...").
I still like having conditions attached to attributes reduced to 1 and 0.
I still like the idea of sliding along condition tracks: shakem + shaken = frightened, etc.
I might like more freedom in creating new chains: e.g., a fear spell that inflicts shaken/dazed/panicked/paralyzed, or whatever.
I'm leaning now more towards things like "if you fail the save, you are shaken 1 round/level. If you fail by 10 or more, or are already sickened, then you are also nauseated 1 round."
It seems here that you wish to decouple conditions and attribute changes.
Might I suggest an alternative?
Conditions can be elevated by attributes, and not inflicted by lack of them. In a way, we reverse the process, from damaged attributes > Conditions to Conditions healed by attributes.
I haven't put down something solid, but this may get some juices flowing.
The Mystic Domain does not grant class synergy with any arcane spellcaster, nor does a spellcaster grant synergy to any cleric levels. Is this intentional?
I just now noticed Eldritch Blast is already available as a reserve feat.
...That requires druid spells...
Tahlreth wrote: I just now noticed Eldritch Blast is already available as a reserve feat.
...That requires druid spells...
How amusing! When did this appear from? Let us keep our new version and dispense with the old one, shall we?
I had a thought for an adjustment for Reduce Spell. Perhaps one can lower the Damage Dice grade instead of the quantity of dice instead. With a little more adjustment, Burning Hands can be closer to the in-game spell, and wizards have more options in regard to what they can modify their spells as.
Not to forget that one can adjust Eldritch blast with metamagic and make it further, but deal 1d4 per reserve instead of 1d6, or shorten it for 1d8 instead.
The possibilities are endless!
Tahlreth wrote: I just now noticed Eldritch Blast is already available as a reserve feat...That requires druid spells... Lolwut?! That's bizarre! I'll look as soon as I get home (assuming my computer will start).
Tahlreth wrote: I just now noticed Eldritch Blast is already available as a reserve feat.
...That requires druid spells...
Reference? I'm not seeing it.
Chapter 3: Classes - Druid - Appendix B: Druid Feats
If anyone has a copy of the bookmarked PDF version of this, I would appreciate a copy. I'm enjoying using it, but there are sections it would be nice to be able to quickly jump to when referencing these rules.
I'd also love an updated version. The one I have is a year old by now and from what I follow this thread it should have changed a bit. (I have the .docx documents if it matters) e-Mail: insignium@live.de
This questions probably already been answered but can be necromantic feats like nimble bones or deadly chill be applied to undead that have already been raised
To raise replacement undead, wouldn't you just have to recast the spell that raised them in the first place? If so, I'd be okay with having those necromantic feats apply retroactively.
Tahlreth wrote: Chapter 3: Classes - Druid - Appendix B: Druid Feats Ugh -- a holdover from previous drafts. Just whack that out entirely -- I like the general [reserve] one we've been working on a lot better.
SSJSandwich wrote: This questions probably already been answered but can be necromantic feats like nimble bones or deadly chill be applied to undead that have already been raised Templates can be applied retroactively, but if any CR adjustments put the total CR worth of undead you control over your control limit (Cf. Control Undead feat), all partially-controlled or excess undead become uncontrolled by you and will act according to their basic nature (whch might include attacking you).
@ Caedwyr -- If anyone has made a recent bookmarked PDF, they haven't given me a copy, so, alas, I'm unable to hook you up in that regard.
@ Insignium -- If my antique computer will start, and if I remember, I'll send you a copy at some point this week.
Looks like my copy is rather outdated (over a year and a half ago). If anybody is willing to send me the updated copy I'd really appreciate that. Heck, I'll even bookmark it for you.
ragnarokion at gmail.com
Fighter Talents: Thicket of Blades wrote: Source: This talent supersedes the Knight’s “vigilant defender” class feature from the Player’s Handbook II. It supersedes the Crusader’s stance of the same name from the Tome of Battle.
Source: This talent subsumes the d20 Modern Weapons Encyclopedia feat, and also the
Whack out the second Source entry here too?
@ Ragnarok Aeon -- sending now.
Looking for the newest version:
frgpwzya@grr.la
Longer temp email:
ZLjGnYAYsv3M@meltmail.com
In the interests of standardizing the behavior of chaotic polymorphic spells, has anyone considered this?
Change proposed:
Polymorph spells (Elemental Body, Beast Shape, Monsterous Physique, Undead Anatomy, Plant Shape, Form of the Dragon, etc.) all follow the same basic rules for polymorphing, and the spells are in heart, identical.
One may transform to any creature in the Pathfinder bestiary that has a CR equal or less than their Concentration (Or Caster Level).
The bonuses to attributes, senses, defenses, and movement types do not change, and the caster does not alter themself into a monster per se, but actually function as the monster. They do not keep any SLA abilities, though they gain any (Ex) and (Su) the form has, and may also speak or cast spells if they have the appropriate feats.
The spell is consolidated into one comprehensive spell, called Polymorph, which follows Kirthfinder’s example with Summon Monster (which is that spells with few limitations must be prepared beforehand with the monster intended).
Thus, when a Wizard prepares Polymorph, they must choose the creature type beforehand, if not choose the monster itself.
Spell Level 1-2: Small
Spell Level 3-4 : Medium, Small
Spell Level 5-6: Large, Tiny
Spell Level 7-8: Huge, Diminutive
Spell Level 9: Gargantuan, Fine.
Any thoughts?
Arrius wrote: The bonuses to attributes, senses, defenses, and movement types do not change I assume you mean "from the current Pathfinder spells being duplicated" rather than "from the Bestiary stats"? Otherwise this is several steps backwards in terms of design.
I'd also probably keep a separate spell for each creature type: giant form would all be one spell with various Heightened effects, for example, but elemental body might be a different spell.
Kirth Gersen wrote: I assume you mean "from the current Pathfinder spells being duplicated" rather than "from the Bestiary stats"? Otherwise this is several steps backwards in terms of design. For simplicity's sake, I would think that using a creature's actual statblock would work, unless there is an issue I am missing.
Kirth Gersen wrote: I'd also probably keep a separate spell for each creature type: giant form would all be one spell with various Heightened effects, for example, but elemental body might be a different spell. Of course, when one learns Polymorph I (Giant/Undead), one can heighten an existing spell rather than learning Polymorph II (Giant/Undead).
Arrius wrote: For simplicity's sake, I would think that using a creature's actual statblock would work, unless there is an issue I am missing. Yes -- that's the whole reason Paizo has a gazillion different polymorph spells, because otherwise you're dumpster-diving through Bestiaries for completely broken crap.
Arrius wrote: Of course, when one learns Polymorph I (Giant/Undead), one can heighten an existing spell rather than learning Polymorph II (Giant/Undead). Wait... why are giants lumped in with undead?
Kirth Gersen wrote: Arrius wrote: For simplicity's sake, I would think that using a creature's actual statblock would work, unless there is an issue I am missing. Yes -- that's the whole reason Paizo has a gazillion different polymorph spells, because otherwise you're dumpster-diving through Bestiaries for completely broken crap. Forgive me; I have never tried using Polymorphing spells or SLA before. I had assumed that one actually flips through the bestiary already and identifies the form they turn into with Beast Shape I, and then gains the actual statistics block.
Now, upon reading the actual polymorph rules, I found that these spells simply grant attribute bonuses, movement changes, sensory additions or subtractions, and a few abilities specified in each spell.
...Now wait a minute: Why doesn't the bestiary accommodate players just turning into the creatures they polymorph into?
Of course, there should be a mechanic to adjudicate what is left of player resources when converting back (the issue of hit points when Beast Shaping into a CR 1/3, HP 3 seagull from a HD5, HP 35 Druid).
Kirth Gersen wrote: Wait... why are giants lumped in with undead? Bah. It was but an example. The real issue is above.
Arrius wrote: Forgive me; I have never tried using Polymorphing spells or SLA before. I had assumed that one actually flips through the bestiary already and identifies the form they turn into with Beast Shape I, and then gains the actual statistics block.
Now, upon reading the actual polymorph rules, I found that these spells simply grant attribute bonuses, movement changes, sensory additions or subtractions, and a few abilities specified in each spell.
...Now wait a minute: Why doesn't the bestiary accommodate players just turning into the creatures they polymorph into?
Of course, there should be a mechanic to adjudicate what is left of player resources when converting back (the issue of hit points when Beast Shaping into a CR 1/3, HP 3 seagull from a HD5, HP 35 Druid).
Examples are legion. Monsters with relatively low CR/HD/size/whatever your polymorph critereon is (HD in 3.5 ed.), who have abilities that are totally borked for PCs of that level, are rife. You can eliminate a lot of the real problems by saying "no supernatural or spell-like abilities," thus eliminating monsters with level-inappropriate SLAs, monsters with automatic gaze attacks and other powerful supernatural abilities that mess with the action economy, monsters with inherent natural invisibility, and so on (for some reason 3.5 had this limitation with polymorph but not shapechange), but you still open the door for a lot of potential abuse -- even aside from obscure stuff like using polymorph any object to permanently become a beholder mage, for example.
Simply granting "attribute bonuses, movement changes, sensory additions or subtractions, and a few abilities specified in each spell" is absolutely a more balanced way of handling it; I just agree that you shouldn't need 3-4 different spells x Y different forms.
Kirth Gersen wrote: Examples are legion. Monsters with relatively low CR/HD/size/whatever your polymorph critereon is (HD in 3.5 ed.), who have abilities that are totally borked for PCs of that level, are rife. You can eliminate a lot of the real problems by saying "no supernatural or spell-like abilities," thus eliminating monsters with level-inappropriate SLAs, monsters with automatic gaze attacks and other powerful supernatural abilities that mess with the action economy, monsters with inherent natural invisibility, and so on (for some reason 3.5 had this limitation with polymorph but not shapechange), but you still open the door for a lot of potential abuse -- even aside from obscure stuff like using polymorph any object to permanently become a beholder mage, for example.
Simply granting "attribute bonuses, movement changes, sensory additions or subtractions, and a few abilities specified in each spell" is absolutely a more balanced way of handling it; I just agree that you shouldn't need 3-4 different spells x Y different forms.
I see. That makes perfect sense.
Perhaps we should consolidate the attribute/movement/sensory/ability changes instead.
I still find it strange that one can Beast Shape I into a housecat, and not actually be a housecat, but the exploitation is now too clear for me to ignore.
The Egg of Coot wrote: 6/28/14: Chapter 6, Numerical Bonuses: Add the following paragraph under "Enhancement Bonuses"
Fortification: Each 5% chance to ignore precision damage and additional effects of confirmed crits is treated as a +1 enhancement bonus. Light fortification (25%) therefore costs 52 x 300 = 7,500 numen; 30,000 for moderate (50%) fortification, 67,500 for heavy (75%) fortification, and a maximum of 120,000 numen for 100% fortification (virtual immunity, except when specific feats or talents are applied).
Delete the later paragraph on Fortification under "feats."
The math here looks funny. Shouldn't the formula here be (%)^2 x 12 so the prices work out?
On another topic, I see with Bane Spell, the specific effect is chosen when the spell is modified, whether prepared or spontaneously cast. And with the Improve Skill spell, the specific effect is apparently chosen when the spell is learned. What about the Damage Attribute spell and the Polymorph spell; is the specific effect chosen when the spell is learned, or when the spell is prepared/spontaneously cast?
Out of curiosity, as a necromancer specialist having a zombie as a familiar would the familiar still be able to be resummoned with the 30 minute ritual when it's reduced below 0 health?
Also is there anyway to make the familiar intelligent
SSJSandwich wrote: (1) Out of curiosity, as a necromancer specialist having a zombie as a familiar would the familiar still be able to be resummoned with the 30 minute ritual when it's reduced below 0 health? I'd let you re-animate it with a 30-minute ritual, yes.
SSJSandwich wrote: Also is there anyway to make the familiar intelligent Use the juju zombie or zombie lord template instead of just a zombie. This will require you to be able to pay the additional CR cost, however.
Where are those templates at?
The Kirthfinder ruleset is pure gold, but I have a couple of spell-related questions.
1. The arcane bloodline sorcerer 9th level ability grants synergy strong synergy for wizard to sorcerer spellcasting, and allows the sorcerer to prepare spells (up to his wizard level) in lieu of spells known?
How does this work exactly? Do the prepared spells
A) Function as swappable known spells, castable multiple times fueled by spells per day slots
or
B) Prepared in lieu of known spells, use spells per day slots, but are also expended once cast
or
C) None of the above
2. Does a synergized wizard/arcane sorcerer gain bonus spells prepared from high attribute?
3. How do the generalist wizard Metamagic Mastery and Sorcerer's rapid metamagic (or any spontaneous casting really) interact with +0 level metamagic feats? Are they useable at will?
Thanks, its a great system- the synergies are brilliant.
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