Titan mauler and weapon size


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Now i have a question about the rules. Let's take the Titan Mauler. At 2nd level, he has the ability to use 2h weapon in one hand, but only if of appropriate size (like a greataxe for medium characters in one hand, but not a large longsword).
Ok, that's clear. At 3rd level he can reduce the penalty for using inappropriate sized weapons by 1/3 barbarian levels. Nice. Now, the general rule states that a medium creature can use a large longsword like a 2h sword but with a -2 for his size. There's nothing that says that you can use a large greataxe with 2h at -2 penalty, doing 3d6 damage per hit at -2 attack bonus, so no extra damage :)
If we follow the general rule, this barbarian archetype sucks. A lot. The malus reduction doesn't work with the 2nd level ability, and can't give you extra damage. It just let you use some magic weapons that giants could have, but... are this two options powerful like uncanny dodge and trap sense? Seems that the only way to use this archetype is for small sized characters, that could have problem with damage dice, but this could help if you play a barbarian with 1h weapons, or maybe if u never find nor buy magic weapons of your size (and your GM is an idiot).

Maybe this archetype is not limited to this choice, and can use a large greataxe with 2h. Would be nice, but we have to make some count.

At 18th level you can use weapons 3 size bigger than yours without penalties. That means your greatsword do 6d6 damage per hit. With the vital strike talent tree, this became 24d6. With the 14th level ability, Titanic Rage, 36d6, that a barbarian can maximize with furious finish (being immune to fatigue is not so hard). I will not consider now mounted charge.

Now, with a build 1 oracle level / barbarian you can use limited power rage once a round during rage, since you need only a free action to end and start rage(like energy absorption), and every round you can do 36d6 maximized plus all your bonus.

As GM, now i will let use this archetype only with a level based limitation to weapon size (4d6 is acceptable i think), or using general rules but allowing the 2nd and 3rd level ability to work togheter.
Once a rage limited powers in my game are now "once an encounter".


AlecStorm wrote:
The malus reduction doesn't work with the 2nd level ability, and can't give you extra damage. It just let you use some magic weapons that giants could have

Correct.

AlecStorm wrote:
are this two options powerful like uncanny dodge and trap sense?

Well, they're not -bad- to have, but they're not as good as many people wish them to be.

AlecStorm wrote:
Maybe this archetype is not limited to this choice, and can use a large greataxe with 2h.

Not with the rules as written.

For discussion about changing the archtype, you may find the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew section of the forums interesting.


I agree with you. In both case, not a good choice for a balanced game i think. I' wondering about a small sized barbarian, but... Well, i will see the discussion you propose me.


Personally i believe, drawing from your research into the insanely broken amounts of damage u can get off doing that, that the Titan Mauler is insanely broken. just a point by me but any game i run won't allow that class.


This massive damage is not permitted by rules. I considered 2 options: the first, following rules strictly, that show a nerfed archetype. The second option is too much overpowered. This is a "all or nothing" situation.
Should find a solution for my campaign :)
Maybe the 2nd and 3rd level ability should stack, allowing a goblin barbarian to use a medium longsword in one hand without penalty, or a medium greatsword in 2h, but not more. So this can let you play a small barbarian and being not weak.

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This archetype was already dicussed a lot in this thread. As the rules of Titan Mauler are written you won’t gain damage outside the range of what you would get using the wielder’s natural sized weapon.

The archetype is limited by the light weapon>1hand weapon>2hand weapon>impossible to use rule. A medium character using a medium greatsword does 2d6 damage. A med character using a lg longsword does 2d6 dmg with a -2 hit(mitigated by massive weapon, and a med character using a huge short sword does 2d6 dmg with a -4 hit(mitigated by massive weapon).

The best current uses for Massive Weapon for a medium wielder are a huge aklys, from ultimate combat. It is a exotic light weapon that does 1d8 dmg. Bumped to huge it would be a 2hand weapon that does 3d6. Other than that you take Exotic Weapon proficiency to make a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe one handed, and then using a large version doing 2d8 dmg.

Jotungrip and Massive Weapon probably should interact differently then the current printed rules. But there haven’t been any comments from developers or a FAQ published for it yet.


It's not nearly as powerful as you think. By the rules, you simply cannot wield a two-handed weapon larger than you. The archetype does nothing to change this. So at best, you're spending a feat on Bastard Sword proficiency and wielding a Large one two-handed, for 2d8 damage. That's pretty much as high as you're going to get.

You can eventually wield things like a Colossal dagger or whatever without penalty, but because of the way damage dice scales, you'll be no better off than if you had just used a normal sized greatsword.


SunsetPsychosis wrote:

It's not nearly as powerful as you think. By the rules, you simply cannot wield a two-handed weapon larger than you. The archetype does nothing to change this. So at best, you're spending a feat on Bastard Sword proficiency and wielding a Large one two-handed, for 2d8 damage. That's pretty much as high as you're going to get.

You can eventually wield things like a Colossal dagger or whatever without penalty, but because of the way damage dice scales, you'll be no better off than if you had just used a normal sized greatsword.

Or a Colossal revolver? Guns don't increase in hands needed even when increasing size. You just take size penalty to hit (that Titan lowers at 3rd level) and it weighs/cost more.


I know that rules don't let you use weapons bigger than large. But, if you follow the rules this archetype sucks. If you don't use this limit, it became too strong. A waste of paper?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Drizzt1080 wrote:

This archetype was already dicussed a lot in this thread. As the rules of Titan Mauler are written you won’t gain damage outside the range of what you would get using the wielder’s natural sized weapon.

The archetype is limited by the light weapon>1hand weapon>2hand weapon>impossible to use rule. A medium character using a medium greatsword does 2d6 damage. A med character using a lg longsword does 2d6 dmg with a -2 hit(mitigated by massive weapon, and a med character using a huge short sword does 2d6 dmg with a -4 hit(mitigated by massive weapon).

The best current uses for Massive Weapon for a medium wielder are a huge aklys, from ultimate combat. It is a exotic light weapon that does 1d8 dmg. Bumped to huge it would be a 2hand weapon that does 3d6. Other than that you take Exotic Weapon proficiency to make a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe one handed, and then using a large version doing 2d8 dmg.

Jotungrip and Massive Weapon probably should interact differently then the current printed rules. But there haven’t been any comments from developers or a FAQ published for it yet.

Just as an update, the FAQ has now been updated to address this: They don't work together.

So the Massive Weapon class feature is, in fact, entirely useless, except for very specific edge cases like the one above, where it's just the benefits of the 15th level and 18th level reductions that are useless.

Sczarni

all of the abilities of this archetype are really nice, they work exactly as they say they do. the problem is that what everyone wants from this archetype, they want to weild weapons bigger than anyone else but the class does not grant that ability. i love the idea of this archetype but wish it had been exicuted better.

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The powerful build racial feature seems to be what people are expecting.

I wasn't aware of the size limit on inappropriately sized weapons until I started researching this class. I have to say that I am slightly disappointed.

I have a player who wants to use this archetype for his goblin barbarian. I think he is going to be disappointed when he learns it wont let him pick up medium sized great swords.

Why not allow just one step higher with two-handed weapons? Would that house rule be appropriate?

That way the small sized barbarian could pick up the medium greatsword. Or the medium sized one could grab the large sized greataxe.

I don't see anything in that that would be considered overpowered.


northbrb wrote:
all of the abilities of this archetype are really nice, they work exactly as they say they do. the problem is that what everyone wants from this archetype, they want to weild weapons bigger than anyone else but the class does not grant that ability. i love the idea of this archetype but wish it had been exicuted better.
It's a case of "Not what it says on the tin". The description of the archetype specifically says:
Quote:
While her enemies’ size makes the creatures strong, the titan mauler is even stronger, taking up weapons from her fallen foes that no lesser warrior can lift, and using them when she beseeches the spirits to grant her increased size and greater ferocity against her titanic foes

But the TM can't use weapons no one else can lift. The best one can do is use a Huge dagger, and anyone can wield one with a -4 penalty. The TM can reduce that penalty to 0 by 12th level, but you're now wielding a 1d4->1d6->1d8 (19-20/x2) two-handed weapon. Hmm. That looks like Medium longsword stats. And where do you find a Huge dagger? Giants almost always have two-handed Large or Huge weapons, which even the Titan Mauler can't wield.

So yeah. All the other abilities work and provide somewhat useful benefits, but none of them really give the flavor that the class is described as having.

Jotungrip lets you use a shield with your big weapon, which is nice but not the image they're going for, or lets you dual-wield it with a light weapon (which is a weird image - greatsword and dagger?) or another one- or two-handed weapon. The image of a barbarian dual-wielding greatswords is what the class is going for, but you're at a -8 to attacks while doing so (-2 for each weapon, then -4 for wielding a one-handed weapon in your off hand). So the one form that works with the description doesn't work mechanically.

Massive Weapons, as previously stated, is entirely useless except for certain very specific edge cases with exotic weapons.

Evade Reach is a very nice ability, but the smaller your target, the better it works, which is again, not what the class would lead you to believe. At 5th level, it basically lets you ignore attacks of opportunity while you're standing adjacent to a Medium creature, and approach (but not move away from) a Large creature without getting hit. At 10th level, bump both those categories up one size (and again at 15th and 20th).

Titanic Rage is a joke. By the time you get it, the party buffer can enlarge you every fight of the day, and you can afford enlarge person potions like they were candy. I won't deny that it's situationally useful (because it doesn't take another action), but the drawback of being exhausted instead of fatigued is pretty huge. And it still doesn't let you wield anything larger than you'd normally be able to.

CalebTGordan wrote:
The powerful build racial feature seems to be what people are expecting.

Yep, that's what people are expecting, because that's what it describes itself as doing. Unfortunately, it fails at living up to its flavor.


I think the fluff tells you how to use crunch. Thereby remove the limitation of effort and use weapons as such. If you are a medium sized creature with a Huge great sword i starts out as a -4 and you get a 3d8 weapon. Ironically the average damage difference is 8 5.5>13.5 the same as if your power attack feat were to increase your weapon damage. Not really gamebreaking. Even if you use the example of the 36d6 attack (126 dmg)compared to an arcane trickster casting a second level spell searing ray (sorcerer / rogue build) 4 rays doing 4d6+8d6(sneak attack each) 48d6 damage, and this character isnt even supposed to be the main damage dealer.We could specialize the build by doing a dragon/elemental primal dual blooded and get +96 damage to boot. I think the barbarian deserves to do as much damage as the rogue mage.


Your houseruled "overpowered" version isn't at all -- You're talking about doing 24d6 to one creature on a single strike with vital strike; less than what a wizard of your level can do with an intensified delayed blast fireball, from long range, hitting 10 enemies at once. You spent multiple feats to do that, and the Wizard either has a metamagic rod or spent one feat. And casting an intensified delayed blast fireball just made everyone who considers themselves an optimizer throw up in their mouths a little bit. Your vital strike trick burned 3 feats and killed any ability you have to benefit from haste. Save your feats, get haste cast on you, use your iterative attacks.

The only overpowered thing that has been mentioned here is the ultra-cheese of using a colossal firearm. A clearer example of RAW being nowhere near RAI there has never been. If anyone in a group I DM'd or played with tried that, I would attack them with a greatsword. And I'm not talking about in-game.


RAI of the Titan Mauler from the designer may be found here.


Even with the limited version allowed in PFS (ie the RAW version not the writers RAI version) it is still a functionally useful class, I am currently working on the fluff my Tien Titan Mauler before I make him for PFS.


Michael Foster 989 wrote:
Even with the limited version allowed in PFS (ie the RAW version not the writers RAI version) it is still a functionally useful class, I am currently working on the fluff my Tien Titan Mauler before I make him for PFS.

It's definitely useful, just not at all what it is described as being.


Bobson wrote:
Michael Foster 989 wrote:
Even with the limited version allowed in PFS (ie the RAW version not the writers RAI version) it is still a functionally useful class, I am currently working on the fluff my Tien Titan Mauler before I make him for PFS.

It's definitely useful, just not at all what it is described as being.

Which is a problem for players in PFS who read the description, get excited, and later learn that their character doesn't get to do what's promised. I made my Titan Mauler in spite of that, as will Michael, but it annoys me that archetypes like this and the Beast Rider exist as "traps" for players who don't have the time or inclination to research the rules as carefully.

In home games, it's not really that much of an issue, as GMs have the discretion to fix the archetype or allow the players to adjust accordingly. But in PFS, where you are not allowed to retrain or respec and the GMs aren't allowed to fix issues with RAW, you're going to end up with disappointment and/or confrontation. I don't look forward to being the GM that tells a player they can't actually wield their +1 Huge Greatsword, bought with a strict no returns policy.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Calling Titan Mauler a trap, because it is misunderstood, is bit much.
I know players who took Vital Strike because "double damage all the time" sounded cool, then I would have to let them know, that is not the case.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Calling Titan Mauler a trap, because it is misunderstood, is bit much.

I know players who took Vital Strike because "double damage all the time" sounded cool, then I would have to let them know, that is not the case.

You don't think "taking up weapons from her fallen foes that no lesser warrior can lift" is a little misleading? It's more catchy than "taking up light or one-handed weapons from her fallen foes no greater than two size categories larger than her that any lesser warrior could lift certainly, but must wield at a penalty," to be sure. Or maybe it was just a victim of word-count limits.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I suppose it is a bit misleading. The archetype is still quite good though.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I suppose it is a bit misleading. The archetype is still quite good though.

Oh, I agree, enough so to make a character using it. I just wish they'd clean it up a bit. While I'd prefer that they implement some form of Jason's clarification, I'd still be content if they just made it more obvious what you are getting--and what you aren't.


Ive found this class useful mostly for a 2 lvl dip for the jotungrip ability. It makes for a decent Switch hitter with a 2 weapon fighter with a glove of storing, or even on a pally. You start out as a Neutral Good barbarian for 2 levels, have a change of heart, and go lawful turning into a Pally. you lose out some abilities (like rage) but makes a very flavourful char. Last thing I realized for this archetype is if you play a gestalt char. going something like Two weapon fighter for one side and a mix of 2 lvls of barbarian, 4 lvls of Alchemist (for 2 extra arms), 10 lvls of ranger (two weapon style) and the last 4 lvls whatever. give him permanent enlarge person and you have an interesting concept. Again not necessarily maximum effectiveness but fun none the less.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What other archetypes does this archetype stack with?


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Everything I've seen has consisted of people thinking it would work as intended, but due to how it was written, it gives you false hope because it is in fact impossible to wield a large+ two-handed weapon.

However, I recently made a build that surpassed the 2d8 damage limit and posted the stats in the Advice section of the forums.

My way was a Multi-Classed Barbarian, Fighter, Sorcerer, Oracle. Sounds like a mess I know, but the damage output was awesome and it's all within the rules. :)

I'll explain:

Step 1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword, Still Spell and make sure you have the trait of Magical Knack: Enlarge Person, so you can wear armour while casting Enlarge Person without a chance of failure and not have to raise the level of the spell!

Step 2. Buy Large Bastard Sword - Deals 2d8 damage

Step 3. Go Sorcerer one level to get Enlarge Person as early as possible

Step 4. Enlarge yourself - You are now Large - Your Weapon is Huge and deals 3d8 damage

Step 5. Go Oracle - Metal Discovery - Fatigue Immunity - Lame Curse is negated by the Metal Discovery because it gives you a +10 base speed, so your speed stays at 40ft

Step 6. Go Oracle level 2 - Obtain Spell: Lead Blades

Step 7. Cast Lead Blades and attack - Lead Blades allows you to treat the damage of your weapon as one size category above your own, dealing 4d8 damage

I had this build primarily a Two-Handed Fighter for Weapon Training and extra feats, gave it 4 levels Barbarian for Rage and two Rage Powers to bump up the accuracy (Reckless Abandon and Surprise Accuracy), used the Oracle to gain Fatigue Immunity at level 9 and gain the Lead Blades spell which is only usually on the Ranger spell list and gained much later on as a Ranger.....then combined all of this with the Tattooed Sorcerer for Enlarge Person and a Compy Familiar that can merge with your body (granting +4 Initiative without the worry of your Familiar dying) and followed the Eldritch Heritage feat line to give myself the Orc Bloodline, which increases Strength considerably and play will begin with an 18 Strength. :)

The stats are as follows:

Str: 18 (+2 Human)
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Wis: 9
Int: 10
Cha: 13

I also gave this guy Raging Brutality (and Vitality), Heart of the Wilderness Racial Trait, Extra Rage x2, Extra Traits and Still Spell.

Then for traits he had Magical Lineage: Enlarge Person, Deft Dodger (+1 on Reflex Saves) and Barbarian of the Society for 3 additional rounds of Rage, giving him a total of 27 rounds of rage at level 17.

If this is the kind of thing you're interested in, then have a play with this build because it can deal a phenomenal amount of damage!

Mix it with Gloves of Dueling and a +5 weapon with any other properties added onto it, as well as focusing on your Str at level up and you'll have a Gargantuan force to be reckoned with. ;)

I just sadly haven't had a chance to play this guy yet, as my Cleric is still surviving in Kingmaker....and he's not broken at all, just good at Charming people. :p

In fact, I don't even know if you could really class this build as broken, maybe just ultra powerful/badass.

Anyway, that's the only way I can think of to reach the Gargantuan size category of damage output. I don't think you can reach Colossal in any way at all, so I guess this build caps it out.

Dark Archive

Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

Everything I've seen has consisted of people thinking it would work as intended, but due to how it was written, it gives you false hope because it is in fact impossible to wield a large+ two-handed weapon.

However, I recently made a build that surpassed the 2d8 damage limit and posted the stats in the Advice section of the forums.

My way was a Multi-Classed Barbarian, Fighter, Sorcerer, Oracle. Sounds like a mess I know, but the damage output was awesome and it's all within the rules. :)

I'll explain:

Step 1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword, Still Spell and make sure you have the trait of Magical Knack: Enlarge Person, so you can wear armour while casting Enlarge Person without a chance of failure and not have to raise the level of the spell!

Step 2. Buy Large Bastard Sword - Deals 2d8 damage

Step 3. Go Sorcerer one level to get Enlarge Person as early as possible

Step 4. Enlarge yourself - You are now Large - Your Weapon is Huge and deals 3d8 damage

Step 5. Go Oracle - Metal Discovery - Fatigue Immunity - Lame Curse is negated by the Metal Discovery because it gives you a +10 base speed, so your speed stays at 40ft

Step 6. Go Oracle level 2 - Obtain Spell: Lead Blades

Step 7. Cast Lead Blades and attack - Lead Blades allows you to treat the damage of your weapon as one size category above your own, dealing 4d8 damage

I had this build primarily a Two-Handed Fighter for Weapon Training and extra feats, gave it 4 levels Barbarian for Rage and two Rage Powers to bump up the accuracy (Reckless Abandon and Surprise Accuracy), used the Oracle to gain Fatigue Immunity at level 9 and gain the Lead Blades spell which is only usually on the Ranger spell list and gained much later on as a Ranger.....then combined all of this with the Tattooed Sorcerer for Enlarge Person and a Compy Familiar that can merge with your body (granting +4 Initiative without the worry of your Familiar dying) and followed the Eldritch Heritage feat line to give myself the Orc Bloodline, which increases...

I think I saw your post in another thread and was toying with the concepts.

I thought buying potions of enlarge person, and then carrying one around in your hand, combined with the accelerated drinking trait would give you a Move Action Enlarge, and a Standard Action to cast Lead Blades. You'd be self buffed in round one.


Titan Mauler is good but for reasons other than using a titanic weapon.

Use a reach weapon in 1-hand. A 'sword and board' warrior with shield feats for 5ft melle and a reach weapon for reach and trip etc is pretty nasty.

Many archetypes (spartans then assorted mercenery groups throughout the ages) used very long spears and shields.

Also if you have some spare feats or pickup a double musket from a gunlinger you can draw and shoot it with one hand.... or draw and shoot 2 with 2 hands.


@Veldebrand - :p

There's that option too. In fact, the coolest thing to do would be to merge the two.

That way you'd have the spells from your class and also have potions to carry on the madness once you run out of spells for the day.

Also, a good thing about those two spells are that they last one minute per level and you get 4 a day of each, so for most encounters you're practically sorted and if you do run out from both options, you'd still have enough strength to make the difference in combat anyway. ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Titan Mauler is able to wield two Meteor hammers, and threaten 5ft and 10ft away. You will also get a shield bonus to AC.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Titan Mauler is able to wield two Meteor hammers, and threaten 5ft and 10ft away. You will also get a shield bonus to AC.

Is that true? Can you use a double weapon with Jotungrip?


redward wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Titan Mauler is able to wield two Meteor hammers, and threaten 5ft and 10ft away. You will also get a shield bonus to AC.
Is that true? Can you use a double weapon with Jotungrip?

Jotungrip (Ex): "At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so."

The Meteor Hammer is a Two-Handed Melee Weapon.

Meteor Hammer: "You may use this weapon in two different ways: in meteor mode you use it as a double weapon, while in fortress mode you cannot use it as a double weapon but gain reach and a +1 shield bonus to AC."

In fortress mode, absolutely. It's not actually a double weapon unless you use meteor mode.

Double Weapons: "Dire flails, (etc.) are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."

I think the simplest interpretation is that, by RAW, the hammer is a two-handed weapon no matter what. Even when used as a double weapon (meteor) or not (fortress). Therefore, it can be wielded in one hand with Jotungrip. Any limitation on using a double weapon in one hand is probably less specific than Jotungrip, so I don't see any reason he couldn't.


Grick wrote:
redward wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Titan Mauler is able to wield two Meteor hammers, and threaten 5ft and 10ft away. You will also get a shield bonus to AC.
Is that true? Can you use a double weapon with Jotungrip?

Jotungrip (Ex): "At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so."

The Meteor Hammer is a Two-Handed Melee Weapon.

Meteor Hammer: "You may use this weapon in two different ways: in meteor mode you use it as a double weapon, while in fortress mode you cannot use it as a double weapon but gain reach and a +1 shield bonus to AC."

In fortress mode, absolutely. It's not actually a double weapon unless you use meteor mode.

Double Weapons: "Dire flails, (etc.) are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."

I think the simplest interpretation is that, by RAW, the hammer is a two-handed weapon no matter what. Even when used as a double weapon (meteor) or not (fortress). Therefore, it can be wielded in one hand with Jotungrip. Any limitation on using a double weapon in one hand is probably less specific than Jotungrip, so I don't...

I would probably say that you could use double weapons in one hand (with Jotungrip) when using as a two-handed weapon (one attack) but not when using it as a double weapon. A double weapon "as if fighting with two weapons" doesn't fall within the "two-handed weapon" description of Jotungrip.

So you could use two meteor hammers in fortress mode and get two attacks with TWF. But you'd only get one of the shield bonuses since they don't stack.


redward wrote:
I would probably say that you could use double weapons in one hand (with Jotungrip) when using as a two-handed weapon (one attack) but not when using it as a double weapon. A double weapon "as if fighting with two weapons" doesn't fall within the "two-handed weapon" description of Jotungrip.

A Jotungripping barbarian could two-weapon fight with greataxes. So fighting "as if with two weapons" doesn't mean they must be one-handed.


Grick wrote:
redward wrote:
I would probably say that you could use double weapons in one hand (with Jotungrip) when using as a two-handed weapon (one attack) but not when using it as a double weapon. A double weapon "as if fighting with two weapons" doesn't fall within the "two-handed weapon" description of Jotungrip.

A Jotungripping barbarian could two-weapon fight with greataxes. So fighting "as if with two weapons" doesn't mean they must be one-handed.

Right. But she couldn't hold two quarterstaffs (quarterstaves?) and get 4 attacks. She'd be two-weapon fighting with each quarterstaff acting as a two-handed weapon (converted to one-handed weapon due to Jotungrip).


redward wrote:
Right. But she couldn't hold two quarterstaffs (quarterstaves?) and get 4 attacks. She'd be two-weapon fighting with each quarterstaff acting as a two-handed weapon (converted to one-handed weapon due to Jotungrip).

No-one would get four attacks, TWF doesn't work that way.

What about wielding a single quarterstaff in one hand, using it as a double weapon? It's a two-handed weapon, so Jotungrip lets you use it in one hand. It's a double weapon, so you can attack as if with two weapons. Since you can normally two-weapon fight with one arm, I don't see anything prohibiting it.

And if you can do it with one, you can do it with two. You're still limited to a total number of attacks based on BAB and feats.


Grick wrote:

No-one would get four attacks, TWF doesn't work that way.

What about wielding a single quarterstaff in one hand, using it as a double weapon? It's a two-handed weapon, so Jotungrip lets you use it in one hand. It's a double weapon, so you can attack as if with two weapons. Since you can normally two-weapon fight with one arm, I don't see anything prohibiting it.

And if you can do it with one, you can do it with two. You're still limited to a total number of attacks based on BAB and feats.

I think we're talking past each other. I'm saying that a double weapon used as a two-handed weapon is one thing, and applicable to Jotungrip. A double weapon used as two weapons is another thing, and is not.

So one could get two attacks with one quarterstaff in each hand, using each as a two-handed weapon. One could not get four attacks with one quarterstaff in each hand, using each as a double weapon.

Similarly, one could use two meteor hammers in fortress mode, one in each hand, but they would only get the shield bonus from one. I'm not sure that single shield bonus is worth the -2 penalty to each attack, on top of the TWF penalties.

In general, I'm not sure where you're ever gaining an advantage by using a double weapon in each hand, since you'd be able to achieve the same damage using it normally and without the attack penalties. I think you'd always be better off using a 2H weapon instead.


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redward wrote:
I'm saying that a double weapon used as a two-handed weapon is one thing, and applicable to Jotungrip. A double weapon used as two weapons is another thing, and is not.

A quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. No matter how you wield it, the weapon size category does not change.

The fact that you fight "as if with two weapons" does not mean it's not still a two-handed weapon. The rule only refers to it being light and one-handed for purposes of TWF penalties. Not for any other purpose.

And because it's a two-handed weapon, Jotungrip lets you use it one-handed, no matter how you wield it.

redward wrote:
One could not get four attacks with one quarterstaff in each hand, using each as a double weapon.

Two-Weapon fighting gives you one extra attack total, not one per weapon.

Lets say the titan mauler buys two quarterstaves. One one, he enchants one end flaming, the other frost. The other one has one end shocking, the other acid. When he full attacks, he can choose which end of which weapon he wants to use. If he's level 6+ he could mix it up, two hits from fire, or a frost and a shock, etc. If he uses two-weapon fighting, he chooses one end of one staff as primary, and one as his off-hand. The other two ends don't get used.

A 9th level TitanMauler2/Thunderstriker7 could have a longspear in one hand, a quarterstaff in the other, both hands wearing spiked gauntlets, both arms with bucklers, with boot blades, a barbazu beard, and improved unarmed strike. He could attack with any of those ten weapons as he chooses. First at +9, then another at +4. If he decided to use Two-Weapon Fighting, he could make two attacks with one of those weapons (+9/+4) and one attack with another (+9).

The number of attacks is not tied to how many manufactured weapons you have.

redward wrote:
In general, I'm not sure where you're ever gaining an advantage by using a double weapon in each hand, since you'd be able to achieve the same damage using it normally and without the attack penalties. I think you'd always be better off using a 2H weapon instead.

I assume BBT wants to wield one in fortress mode, for reach and shield bonus, and the other in meteor mode to threaten adjacent squares, without having to double up on weapon-specific abilities like weapon focus.


I think you're right, as long as it's in the Two-hand Weapon category it's fair game for Jotungrip. So with TWF, one could use either end of the double weapon and/or whatever's in their other hand for a total of two attacks (at BAB < 6).

That said, I'm not sure I agree with the maths in your example:

If he uses either the longspear or quarterstaff, he's at -2 for Jotungrip and -1 for the Buckler ("a thunderstriker takes no penalty on attack rolls when using a weapon in two hands while wearing a buckler"). So -3 unless he drops one of the weapons to wield it two-handed. And that's just for standard/full attacks.

If he uses TWF, he's at:
+7/+2, +7 - 1-hand, light
+5/+0,+5 - 1-hand, 1-hand
+3/-2, +3, Jotungrip, Jotungrip

And that's not including the Buckler penalties.

I just don't think you're going to connect much with +3s and -2s at level 9. At least with a 2H (vs. Double) you're generally getting larger dice and better critical multipliers and/or ranges.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A Titan Mauler can wield a double weapon in one hand, so a double weapon Meteor Hammer is wielded in one hand, while in the other hand it is wield as a reach weapon. Just because the weapon has two "modes" does not mean it does not follow the rules of double weapons. It simply does stop being the weapon it is because it does not fit ones tastes.
The combination is absolutely doable.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Titan Mauler can wield a double weapon in one hand, so a double weapon Meteor Hammer is wielded in one hand, while in the other hand it is wield as a reach weapon. Just because the weapon has two "modes" does not mean it does not follow the rules of double weapons. It simply does stop being the weapon it is because it does not fit ones tastes.

The combination is absolutely doable.

Yes, but. Revising my earlier statement, due to this:

Quote:
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

So, yeah, I think you could use the meteor hammer as described, with the following restrictions:

-You can only use one end of each hammer in a given round
-You can only get one shield bonus in a given round

But it is an intriguing idea. I'd been looking to use a meteor hammer with a character for a while now. This certainly merits consideration.

EDIT:
Crap. Depending on how you read that, you may not be able to use it in meteor mode at all using one hand.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Why?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why?

Because of this line:

Quote:
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

combined with this line:

Quote:
Meteor: In meteor mode you use it as a double weapon.

A strict reading would indicate that you can't use it in meteor mode one-handed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, you use it as a double weapon, which requires two hands, but a Titan Mauler can do it with one hand.
The Titan Mauler wields a double weapon in one hand in a different manner than a common PC does.
That is the difference.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, you use it as a double weapon, which requires two hands, but a Titan Mauler can do it with one hand.

The Titan Mauler wields a double weapon in one hand in a different manner than a common PC does.
That is the difference.

I would rule differently, but YMMV. Here's my logic, FWIW:

Jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

So you can use a 2-handed weapon in one hand. Good, so the meteor hammer can be now be wielded in one hand. So let's look at the Meteor Hammer description:

Meteor Hammer wrote:

You may use this weapon in two different ways:

Meteor: In meteor mode you use it as a double weapon.
Fortress: In fortress mode you cannot use it as a double weapon but gain reach and a +1 shield bonus to AC.

I think we both agree that Fortress mode is a non-issue. Two-handed weapon in one hand, so with Jotungrip you can use it at a -2 attack penalty. But the Meteor mode specifically states you're using it as a double weapon. Looking at the definition of Double Weapons...

Double Weapons wrote:
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

And nothing in the Jotungrip specifically overrides that. In fact, the only other way I know of to be able to wield a double weapon in one hand is the Quarterstaff Master feat, which specifically disallows using it as a double weapon in one hand.

So depending on your GM, you may get to use it in Meteor mode in one hand, but only attack with one end per round. Or you may not be able to use it in Meteor mode at all.

BTW, the reason I'm so anal about this is because I only play in PFS, so whenever I'm exploring weird situations like this, I want to have an airtight case going in to any game.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, a Titan Mauler, with Jotungrip, can only attack with one end of a double weapon, even if he has a BAB of +6 or higher?

Is this not wielding it as a double weapon?

If a PC is wielding a Meteor Hammer in Meteor Mode, must he attack with ends to be doing so?

Can he not be in Meteor Mode, and attack with it using one hand, just like any other double weapon?

If a PC is in Meteor Mode, but attacks using one hand, does he suddenly have reach, even though he made his choice at the beginning of the round?

Does Meteor mode require you to wield it with two hands, unlike other double weapons?

Is this restricted in the text?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, a Titan Mauler, with Jotungrip, can only attack with one end of a double weapon, even if he has a BAB of +6 or higher?

Is this not wielding it as a double weapon?

If a PC is wielding a Meteor Hammer in Meteor Mode, must he attack with ends to be doing so?

Can he not be in Meteor Mode, and attack with it using one hand, just like any other double weapon?

If a PC is in Meteor Mode, but attacks using one hand, does he suddenly have reach, even though he made his choice at the beginning of the round?

Does Meteor mode require you to wield it with two hands, unlike other double weapons?

Is this restricted in the text?

Quote:
Meteor: In meteor mode you use it as a double weapon.
Quote:
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

I think that's pretty clear. No exceptions are given and Jotungrip doesn't specifically override any of those restrictions.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, wielding a double weapon with one hand as average PC, and wielding it with one hand using Jotungrip is a treated exactly the same in all ways, except when using Jotungrip you suffer a penalty?
That sounds mind bogglingly silly.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, a Titan Mauler, with Jotungrip, can only attack with one end of a double weapon, even if he has a BAB of +6 or higher?

Is this not wielding it as a double weapon?

If a PC is wielding a Meteor Hammer in Meteor Mode, must he attack with ends to be doing so?

Can he not be in Meteor Mode, and attack with it using one hand, just like any other double weapon?

If a PC is in Meteor Mode, but attacks using one hand, does he suddenly have reach, even though he made his choice at the beginning of the round?

Does Meteor mode require you to wield it with two hands, unlike other double weapons?

Is this restricted in the text?

If you move and then attack, you only get a single attack. Does it have to act like fortress mode then, instead of staying meteor? Obviously not.

Just because you can attack with both ends of a double weapon, doesn't mean you always will. It's not exactly a good idea when you don't have the right feats, and you may have a double weapon just so you can switch damage types / enchants easily, rather than to TWF.

So the Titan Mauler can choose to use it in Meteor mode, and then choose which end he attacks with. But he can't choose to use both ends, because only one end can be used per round.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I agree Bobson. This still does not disallow a Titan Mauler to wield one Meteor Hammer in Fortress mode, while wielding another in Meteor mode.

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