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Hello, these questions came up on the thread of Walter's Guide to the Magus. I thought they were important enough to put them here in the Rules section instead of the Advice section
If you find any of these questions interesting/not clear (like I do), please hit the FAQ button
1) Can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
(EDIT: like with icy, shock, speed, not +6)
2) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
3) A Magus uses Arcane Pool to make his weapon a +1 flaming katana: does he need then to spend a standard action to activate with a command word the flaming ability?
On a personal note, I think the answers are yes/no/no, but I saw good arguments for both sides
The one I really want to know the answer to is #1, for it makes a huge difference for the archetype in the long run...
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I believe RAW is no to all 3.
Magical item ego is based off of their enhancements (among other things) and the blac blade has a non standard ego progression. Since adding stuff to the black blade would up its ego, and we have no way of determining what the new ego would be, its not covered in the rules. Not covered = not allowed.
Besides, the point is to have a weapon that you power up with your arcane pool
Boom. You have a very good argument for number 1. What about the others?
Name Violation wrote: I believe RAW is no to all 3.
Magical item ego is based off of their enhancements (among other things) and the black blade has a non standard ego progression. Since adding stuff to the black blade would up its ego, and we have no way of determining what the new ego would be, its not covered in the rules. Not covered = not allowed.
That is a good point, but I guess asking for clarification could not hurt. Besides, usually the black blade works with the magus, so the ego score/struggle is a bit less of an issue (in my opinion)
Quote: Besides, the point is to have a weapon that you power up with your arcane pool But on the higher level games, being limited to a +5 weapon makes the archetype significantly worse than a magus without the archetype that can have a +6/+7 weapon that he can enhance past +10 with the arcane pool
I've read many times that not all options are meant to be equal and that there are some sub-optimal choices. But in this case, not being able to improve the black blade seems to run against the very idea of the archetype (in my opinion)
45ur4 wrote: Boom. You have a very good argument for number 1. What about the others? 2 no. if the rules dont say you can, then you cant
3 I'm just assuming the intention is to let you have ou're special propertys here and now, not spend the round activating them
Name Violation wrote: I believe RAW is no to all 3.
Magical item ego is based off of their enhancements (among other things) and the blac blade has a non standard ego progression. Since adding stuff to the black blade would up its ego, and we have no way of determining what the new ego would be, its not covered in the rules. Not covered = not allowed.
Besides, the point is to have a weapon that you power up with your arcane pool
Point of order: not covered = badly written abilities whose writers didn't think everything through, not "not allowed."
Quick glances say there is nothing explictly stoping any of the three actions from happening, just massive headaches in adjudicating them.
in fact number 2 is explicitly allowed as all special properties count as a total enhancement bonus. (flaming is +1, holy is +2, ect.) so long as the total bonus does not exceed the total the blade can have it doesn't matter if it's all enhancement bonus or a mix of +1 and special properties.
I would say that the precedent set by paizo for this is found with their treatment of the paladin bond and, similarly, the arcane archer enhancement abilities. Total enhancement is capped at +10, flat bonuses capped at +5, special abilities capped at an additional +5.
So 1) no
2) no, since the entry is clear about it being an enhancement bonus and not a special ability bonus. The section about magic weapons clarifies that an enhancement bonus is a bonus to hit and damage, where as a special ability bonus counts as an additional bonus. Also, there would probably be a list of special abilities that the magus would be able to choose from.
3) given the limited duration of the ability, I can only assume the intent was for the abilities to apply on the weapon in their activated state. It doesn't seem right to penalize the magus for applying a special ability by adding an activation action on top of it, especially with a duration of 1 minute - also known as combat-only-activation :p So no.
TLDR
1) no
2) no
3) no
Also, Point of order: not covered =/= badly written abilities whose writers didn't think everything through. May be intentional omission, or unintentional oversight. Intent is unknown, can only be guessed at.
1. No, due to the effect of ego as Name Violation stated. Even the simple increasing + enhacement is great, the weapon grows in power as you do.
2. No, using PFS as the standard I expect them to rule on the conservative side and only allow a straight increase in the + enhancement and no trades for special abilities. With a conservative ruling a GM can look at the level of the magus and note the enhancement bonus and know it is legal. The other way would be more complicated and require some kind of special cert.
3. No, I would expect to flame on instantly.
Edited to remove advise information once I saw it was in the rules section.
Doug
2) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
I'm inclined to say no, because then you could switch the special property to "Bane: that thing i'm fighting" and get a +2 and +2d6 damage in EVERY fight.
BigNorseWolf wrote: 2) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
I'm inclined to say no, because then you could switch the special property to "Bane: that thing i'm fighting" and get a +2 and +2d6 damage in EVERY fight.
Thank God for Inquisitors, eh?
Name Violation wrote: 3 I'm just assuming the intention is to let you have ou're special propertys here and now, not spend the round activating them This is actually kind of my problem. If we are going for intentions on the arcane pool special properties, my immediate question is "what was the intention on improving the black blade enhancement?".
And I agree it is awesome to have a weapon that grows with you. It's awesome flavor and I am actually playing one and enjoying every second.
@Magicdealer: I though that the paladins were no longer capped at +10. I could be wrong, but I could not find any FAQs about it. Do you have a reference?
Like I said, I do see a good arguments why all the answers should be "no", but I think that the wording is slightly confusing. I don't think a clarification is uncalled for
EDIT: Please hit the FAQ button!! If nothing else, you can say that you won an argument on the internet ;)
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/divineBondOver9000&page=2&source=search#72
No faq needed since it's just a clarification and reinforcement of existing rules, not a major change in functionality. And, yeah, it sucks :(
And, so you don't think it's just his opinion, his next post in that topic is:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:
To be clear, I didn't weigh in with my "opinion."
I weighed in with both the letter and the intent of the rule. Case closed.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/path finderRPG/rules/divineBondOver9000&page=2&source=search#95
I haven't seen anything since to override it, though I have had my off periods where RL made me pay less attention to the forums than I would have liked.
Magicdealer wrote: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/divineBondOver9000&page=2&source=search#72
No faq needed since it's just a clarification and reinforcement of existing rules, not a major change in functionality. And, yeah, it sucks :(
And, so you don't think it's just his opinion, his next post in that topic is:
Joshua J. Frost wrote:
To be clear, I didn't weigh in with my "opinion."
I weighed in with both the letter and the intent of the rule. Case closed.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/path finderRPG/rules/divineBondOver9000&page=2&source=search#95
I haven't seen anything since to override it, though I have had my off periods where RL made me pay less attention to the forums than I would have liked.
Sorry, but the links are not working :(
But even if I were to concede the point, the question remains if it is fair BEFORE you hit the +10 maximum enhancement. After all, a lvl 12 magus can spend his/her money in buying a +4 weapon (relatively easily, probably more) and has the same enhancement given by the arcane pool (+3), in which case neither reaches the +10
More exacerbated: lvl 16 bladebound magus has a +4 weapon and +4 arcane pool (total +8). A lvl 16 normal magus can have a +6 weapon and +4 arcane pool
Once again, this is assuming that the +10 is still a cap. I really though they had determined it wasn't (one of the big complains when they said they wold put that limitation after the playtest)
BigNorseWolf wrote: I'm inclined to say no, because then you could switch the special property to "Bane: that thing i'm fighting" and get a +2 and +2d6 damage in EVERY fight. How so? Enhancements won't be swappable, because they work just as a normal enchanted weapon.
The answers so far to 2 and 3 are more subjective and arguable at least. Just note that the description part of the enhancement is missing in the BB magus page. It might be an overlooking.
Number 3 is clearly what RAI wants. This is however still against the RAW. Hit FAQ button at least to see in the next UM edition clarified.
BigNorseWolf wrote: 2) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
I'm inclined to say no, because then you could switch the special property to "Bane: that thing i'm fighting" and get a +2 and +2d6 damage in EVERY fight.
Bane Blade (Su): Whenever the magus enhances his
weapon using his arcane pool, he may spend 1 additional
point from his arcane pool to add the bane special ability
to the weapon. The magus must be at least 15th level before
selecting this arcana.
There is a new arcana in UC covering that exact quality.
DougErvin wrote: BigNorseWolf wrote: 2) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
I'm inclined to say no, because then you could switch the special property to "Bane: that thing i'm fighting" and get a +2 and +2d6 damage in EVERY fight.
Bane Blade (Su): Whenever the magus enhances his
weapon using his arcane pool, he may spend 1 additional
point from his arcane pool to add the bane special ability
to the weapon. The magus must be at least 15th level before
selecting this arcana.
There is a new arcana in UC covering that exact quality. Yeah, I'm assuming that even if they allow to use the enhancement as properties (which I doubt), you cannot choose a flexible bane quality
JJ said in his Ask Jacob James thread basically the bane quality is so cheap because it is fixed. Sorry, can't give a citation due to size of the thread. One thing to consider, since the blackblade is sentient, it could choose which enemy the bane was for even if it was not in campaign. If I were GMing I would roll in the intelligent item section of the PFCRB to determine what the sword's purpose and if appropriate its sworn enemy.
I think i had the paladin's weapon pool in my head when i was reading. never mind.
Link One
Link Two
Try them now. Tested them, and they're working on my side.
Drothmal wrote:
But even if I were to concede the point, the question remains if it is fair BEFORE you hit the +10 maximum enhancement. After all, a lvl 12 magus can spend his/her money in buying a +4 weapon (relatively easily, probably more) and has the same enhancement given by the arcane pool (+3), in which case neither reaches the +10
If I understand what you're trying to say here, the weapon is still limited to a maximum of a +5 enhancement bonus total, and a +5 special ability bonus total, for a combined maximum of a +10 bonus. That magus should have spent some of her money elsewhere. Many similar arguments came up on the paladin divine weapon thread, and there was much rage involved. Some of it was my own :(
Drothmal wrote:
More exacerbated: lvl 16 bladebound magus has a +4 weapon and +4 arcane pool (total +8). A lvl 16 normal magus can have a +6 weapon and +4 arcane pool
Once again, this is assuming that the +10 is still a cap. I really though they had determined it wasn't (one of the big complains when they said they wold put that limitation after the playtest)
Once the magus hits 5th level, he can use his arcane pool to add special abilities instead of a flat enhancement bonus. The magus can use his arcane bond ability for special ability bonuses, and his black blade for the enhancement bonuses, and spend all that money he saved - 200,000 gold - on better armor, better rings, staves, and wondrous items. Ect. Basically, allowing these abilities to surpass the enhancement cap would be pretty unbalancing, though again awesome. I can understand why they did it even if I don't like it.
Further into the post that I linked into, he points out that even the temporary bonus of greater magic weapon is counted in that +10 cap. It's on the next page, but I won't bother linking it. It's there if you want to read it. You can also see there many similar arguments to the ones you're making.
Actually, MagicDealer, later in that thread you posted was an opinion by James Jacobs that the +5 / +10 limits only apply to permanent enhancements, not temp enhancements from class abilities or spells.
Follow his links and check the last page of the thread.
Pol Mordreth wrote: Actually, MagicDealer, later in that thread you posted was an opinion by James Jacobs that the +5 / +10 limits only apply to permanent enhancements, not temp enhancements from class abilities or spells.
Follow his links and check the last page of the thread.
Care to link the relevant part?
Side question bout the black blade
Does the Black Blade have its own Pool while the Magus has his own pool or so they share a pool?
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Drothmal wrote: More exacerbated: lvl 16 bladebound magus has a +4 weapon and +4 arcane pool (total +8). A lvl 16 normal magus can have a +6 weapon and +4 arcane pool
Once again, this is assuming that the +10 is still a cap. I really though they had determined it wasn't (one of the big complains when they said they wold put that limitation after the playtest)
The cap and this has been determined for all similar class abilities whether it's the magus arcane bond, paladin divine weapon, or all other similar abilities. the total cap that can be put on a non epic weapon is not +10 but +5/+5 +5 of enhancment and +5 of special abilities.
Well, I don't know about the +5/+5 but I just saw the errata for the core rulebook:
Errata for 4th printing wrote: Page 461—In the Armor section, change the third
sentence of the second paragraph to read as follows:
A suit of armor cannot have an effective bonus
(enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus
equivalents, including those from character abilities and
spells) higher than +10.
Eratta for 4th printing wrote: Page 468—In the Weapons section, change the third
sentence of the third paragraph to read as follows:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus
(enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus
equivalents, including those from character abilities and
spells) higher than +10.
LazarX wrote: Drothmal wrote: More exacerbated: lvl 16 bladebound magus has a +4 weapon and +4 arcane pool (total +8). A lvl 16 normal magus can have a +6 weapon and +4 arcane pool
Once again, this is assuming that the +10 is still a cap. I really though they had determined it wasn't (one of the big complains when they said they wold put that limitation after the playtest)
The cap and this has been determined for all similar class abilities whether it's the magus arcane bond, paladin divine weapon, or all other similar abilities. the total cap that can be put on a non epic weapon is not +10 but +5/+5 +5 of enhancment and +5 of special abilities. This is also how I understand it working. This is how we play paladins and I am sure this is how it was intended for the magus. The benefit to a bladebound magus is that his black blade goes up in enhancement automatically as he rises in level. Eventually he won't need to spend arcane points to enhance the + portion of the blade, but he can still add up to +5 in special properties to his +5 blade by spending the appropriate amount of arcane points.
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Right, but that was James' opinion, while Joshua made very clear that he was posting as the letter and intent of the rules, which he reinforces with his later post about gmw and its interaction.
*holds hands out*
I don't really see the wiggle room. One guy posts an "offical" ruling, while another guy posts his opinion. One cannot oppose the other. Now, if James had put on his official hat like Joshua did, we might have something. As it is... not so much.
And, of course, James' comment was in regards to bane weapons and whether the bonuses against the bane species would stack with the enhancement bonus already in place on the weapon. In his opinion, since bane is a +1 enhancement, that is how it is counted. And then, later in the post after he writes something different about gwm than joshua, he backs off and tells people to use whichever version they want.
Meanwhile, Joshua is clear that he is posting in an official capability, which means his posts are raw, and james' posts are james' opinion on how to run it.
Oh, and here's joshua's post on gmw
Joey Virtue wrote: Side question bout the black blade
Does the Black Blade have its own Pool while the Magus has his own pool or so they share a pool?
They have separated pools, you can notice that by this:
From d2opfsrd wrote: Black Blade Arcane Pool: A black blade has an arcane pool with a number of points equal to 1 + its Intelligence bonus. Also, to avoid confusion Black Blade =/= Bladebound.
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Malthule wrote: LazarX wrote: Drothmal wrote: More exacerbated: lvl 16 bladebound magus has a +4 weapon and +4 arcane pool (total +8). A lvl 16 normal magus can have a +6 weapon and +4 arcane pool
Once again, this is assuming that the +10 is still a cap. I really though they had determined it wasn't (one of the big complains when they said they wold put that limitation after the playtest)
The cap and this has been determined for all similar class abilities whether it's the magus arcane bond, paladin divine weapon, or all other similar abilities. the total cap that can be put on a non epic weapon is not +10 but +5/+5 +5 of enhancment and +5 of special abilities. This is also how I understand it working. This is how we play paladins and I am sure this is how it was intended for the magus. The benefit to a bladebound magus is that his black blade goes up in enhancement automatically as he rises in level. Eventually he won't need to spend arcane points to enhance the + portion of the blade, but he can still add up to +5 in special properties to his +5 blade by spending the appropriate amount of arcane points. That is correct. Essentially a Bladebound Magus has no need to spend a dime on his weapon., at least not his main blade.
Magicdealer wrote: Right, but that was James' opinion, while Joshua made very clear that he was posting as the letter and intent of the rules, which he reinforces with his later post about gmw and its interaction.
*holds hands out*
I don't really see the wiggle room. One guy posts an "offical" ruling, while another guy posts his opinion. One cannot oppose the other. Now, if James had put on his official hat like Joshua did, we might have something. As it is... not so much.
And, of course, James' comment was in regards to bane weapons and whether the bonuses against the bane species would stack with the enhancement bonus already in place on the weapon. In his opinion, since bane is a +1 enhancement, that is how it is counted. And then, later in the post after he writes something different about gwm than joshua, he backs off and tells people to use whichever version they want.
Meanwhile, Joshua is clear that he is posting in an official capability, which means his posts are raw, and james' posts are james' opinion on how to run it.
Oh, and here's joshua's post on gmw
Thanks Magicdealer. I did not know about this, but you have convinced me that it is so (as much as I do not like it, but I feel I'm preaching to the quire)
I would like to ask if there is any trouble in enhancing the black blade with OTHER weapon properties (such as dueling). I don't see why not, but after this new discovery, I don't think it hurts to ask...
LazarX wrote: Malthule wrote: LazarX wrote: Drothmal wrote: More exacerbated: lvl 16 bladebound magus has a +4 weapon and +4 arcane pool (total +8). A lvl 16 normal magus can have a +6 weapon and +4 arcane pool
Once again, this is assuming that the +10 is still a cap. I really though they had determined it wasn't (one of the big complains when they said they wold put that limitation after the playtest)
The cap and this has been determined for all similar class abilities whether it's the magus arcane bond, paladin divine weapon, or all other similar abilities. the total cap that can be put on a non epic weapon is not +10 but +5/+5 +5 of enhancment and +5 of special abilities. This is also how I understand it working. This is how we play paladins and I am sure this is how it was intended for the magus. The benefit to a bladebound magus is that his black blade goes up in enhancement automatically as he rises in level. Eventually he won't need to spend arcane points to enhance the + portion of the blade, but he can still add up to +5 in special properties to his +5 blade by spending the appropriate amount of arcane points. That is correct. Essentially a Bladebound Magus has no need to spend a dime on his weapon., at least not his main blade. Here is the specific reason I'm wondering if money can be spent, not if it needs to be spent. I understand that I can use my Arcane Pool points for adding enhancements to a weapon as I so need, but those are used for a lot more than just weapon enhancements. To wit:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---mag us-arcana/pool-strike-su
By spending an Arcane Pool Point, I can add 2d6 [ my Magus is currently lv.5 ] to my damage. But making sure that my blade is Keen would be exceptionally beneficial also. If I only have 5 Pool Points-- which I will remind you that the Bladebound Magus gets significantly less of to begin with at a maximum of 6+Int Bonus instead of 10+Int Bonus --then I have to decide between the extra damage, or the possibility of getting a critical hit. That's a hell of a gamble.
I'm not looking to exceed the +5 enhanchement / +5 special ability cap, but it would be odd if I could not add special abilities of any sort, especially considering that any weapon held by any other character that does not happen to be a black blade does not have that limit.
In short; I can create a Thundering, Shock, Throwing, Returning, Keen +5 katana, but I can't have a +2 Keen Black Blade if I spend the cash? Seems a little odd. Some clarification on this would be very appreciated.
I have talked about this with my GM and we came to the following conclusion. I and only I can improved the weapon, since it`s just a masterwork weapon for everybody else (you could argue that you could enhance that masterwork weapon, but it might just overlap).
I whenever the black blade gets better I have to spend the GP difference between the unenhanced cost to create and the cost including my improvedments.
That's fair as far as I can tell - since I suggested it. I might even get some backup weapons, maybe some +1 spellstoring daggers, some +1 bane weapons. Add greater magic weapon and your arcane pool to taste. Serve hot or cold ^^
Malthule wrote: LazarX wrote: Drothmal wrote: More exacerbated: lvl 16 bladebound magus has a +4 weapon and +4 arcane pool (total +8). A lvl 16 normal magus can have a +6 weapon and +4 arcane pool
Once again, this is assuming that the +10 is still a cap. I really though they had determined it wasn't (one of the big complains when they said they wold put that limitation after the playtest)
The cap and this has been determined for all similar class abilities whether it's the magus arcane bond, paladin divine weapon, or all other similar abilities. the total cap that can be put on a non epic weapon is not +10 but +5/+5 +5 of enhancment and +5 of special abilities. This is also how I understand it working. This is how we play paladins and I am sure this is how it was intended for the magus. The benefit to a bladebound magus is that his black blade goes up in enhancement automatically as he rises in level. Eventually he won't need to spend arcane points to enhance the + portion of the blade, but he can still add up to +5 in special properties to his +5 blade by spending the appropriate amount of arcane points. Of course he could also just craft or buy a +1 bane spell storing holy weapon or choice and then decide every time if he wants to add more enhancement bonus or abilities (up to an effective +10).
Sebastian Hirsch wrote: I have talked about this with my GM and we came to the following conclusion. I and only I can improved the weapon, since it`s just a masterwork weapon for everybody else (you could argue that you could enhance that masterwork weapon, but it might just overlap).
I whenever the black blade gets better I have to spend the GP difference between the unenhanced cost to create and the cost including my improvedments.
That's fair as far as I can tell - since I suggested it. I might even get some backup weapons, maybe some +1 spellstoring daggers, some +1 bane weapons. Add greater magic weapon and your arcane pool to taste. Serve hot or cold ^^
That's actually a pretty good way to handle the method, Sebastian, thanks for the suggestion! You have a very good point; as far as anyone else is concerned, using the Black Blade just makes it a Mastercraft Sword [ Reskinned Katana in my case ] so it would be impossible for someone to add an additional enhancement bonus to it.
Seeing as my Magus is also our party craftsman, having him do the work personally would make sense, especially with the bond he is supposed to have with his weapon as it is.
All told, I still think it couldn't hurt for a developer to weigh in on this issue!
Holy thread rez, batman! :D
I remember something similar to that from a 3.5? 3.0? class. I believe it was a samurai or something similar who sacrificed wealth to his ancestors to improve his weapon. It was a major class feature as I recall.
Not a bad way to go about it, as long as you're requiring the magus to have the appropriate craft feats, access to the right spells, and rolling the craft check for it.
It does seem a bit powerful if you're allowing the magus to ignore all the requirements as well though, however the cap on bonuss seems to negate the power level a bit.
I should also mention that if you're adding permanent magical enhancements to the black blade, you'll be adjusting its ego as well.
Page 535 of the crb shows you the ego modifier value that depends on the base magic item value. I'd just go with the value of the enhancement on the weapon. I.e. a +2 weapon costs 8000g, so should be a +2 ego modifier.
You could, of course, go with the black blade chart instead, but then you'd be improving the in and wis/cha of the blade as well.
Again you and your dm might not care, which is cool. Just thought I'd mention it :p
Magicdealer wrote: Holy thread rez, batman! :D
I remember something similar to that from a 3.5? 3.0? class. I believe it was a samurai or something similar who sacrificed wealth to his ancestors to improve his weapon. It was a major class feature as I recall.
Not a bad way to go about it, as long as you're requiring the magus to have the appropriate craft feats, access to the right spells, and rolling the craft check for it.
It does seem a bit powerful if you're allowing the magus to ignore all the requirements as well though, however the cap on bonuss seems to negate the power level a bit.
Yes, the Samurai added in the Oriental Adventures book for 3.0/.5 [ There was kind of a debate about which it was intended for at the time ] had the Daiymo Class feature, which was pretty awesome. It would allow you to improve the base weapon by sacrificing wealth and gained loot at full value to increase the bonus and abilities of the blade.
Magicdealer wrote: I should also mention that if you're adding permanent magical enhancements to the black blade, you'll be adjusting its ego as well.
Page 535 of the crb shows you the ego modifier value that depends on the base magic item value. I'd just go with the value of the enhancement on the weapon. I.e. a +2 weapon costs 8000g, so should be a +2 ego modifier.
You could, of course, go with the black blade chart instead, but then you'd be improving the in and wis/cha of the blade as well.
Again you and your dm might not care, which is cool. Just thought I'd mention it :p
In the game that I'm a part of with my Black Blade, I'd be all for this honestly. The blade happens to be the sword of my Magus' grandfather, who has transferred his consciousness into the blade. Considering he was a powerful warrior and Magus in his day as well, it would make plenty of sense for the ego to be more powerful, as well as the Int/Wis modifiers.
I think for the most part though the issue is pretty straight forward. A Magi should be able to improve the black blade outside of requiring Arcana to do so on a temporary basis, but not past the +5 Enhancement / +5 Feature / +5 Temporary limitations that any other weapons would be restricted to.
My opinion would be to allow additional features, but not enhancement bonus, as the weapon will hit a +5 in its own right in time, and updating it early would cause balance issues. Consider the fact that a +1 Black Blade [ lv.3-4 ] could be turned into a +2 for only 3k if the Magi has Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Here's the math on that...
+1 Bonus; 2k
+2 Bonus; 8k
Difference; 6k
Cost of turning a +1 into a +2 is 6k, halved with Crafting Feat.
This would put a +3 Black Blade into the hands of a lv.5 Magi, and that is a bit powerful for the level.
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Vid Avehn wrote: I'm not looking to exceed the +5 enhanchement / +5 special ability cap, but it would be odd if I could not add special abilities of any sort, especially considering that any weapon held by any other character that does not happen to be a black blade does not have that limit. Actually that limit is for EVERYONE. +5/+5 is the limit for non-epic weapons. No matter what they are, divine bond, arcane pool, or straight enchantment via craft magic arms and armor.
From what I have read about the black blade (if you don't over think it) is that the magical blade has its own properties and the magus can use his Arcane Pool to add the listed properties to it just like a normal magus can add properties to his +1 Spell Storing blade. The black blade does not get the spell storing ability on his weapon in any shape form or fasion that I can find. Thats the only draw back i can find for the BLack BLade vs the regualr magus in weapons. He doesn't have to buy his tho. So Spell storeing, thundering, and acid damage seem to be beyond the black blade. (+1 Spell Storing Thundering Corrosive Sword) seems to be what a regular magus ends up with plus a +# and his pool gives the rest. the Black Blade gets bonuses the reg magus doesnt get like extra damage (black blade strike) an unbreakable weapon, energy replacement for melee damage(for those with dr), teleport blade, eventually a larger ap with tranfer arcana, spell defence if you get high enough(yeah free sr) and life drink if you live long enough. So. is all that a resonable replacement for Spell storing and a 8d on crits and a d6 of acid damage........ i think they are evenish, depending on dungeon diving or roleplaying misshapes. You decide
LazarX wrote: Actually that limit is for EVERYONE. +5/+5 is the limit for non-epic weapons. No matter what they are, divine bond, arcane pool, or straight enchantment via craft magic arms and armor. Exactly. If that limit is for EVERYONE, no matter what they are, then that means that it is reasonable that additional bonuses could in fact be added to the Black Blade so long as they fall under that limit.
If I add a +1 bonus, and I use an Arcane Point, as per the Divine Bond, my Arcane Point addition would only bring my Black Blade up to the +5 total and simply not push it past that point. But to say that the Black Blade cannot have these bonuses means that +5/+5 is for everyone except the Black Blade who gets +5/+0.
Von Marshal wrote: From what I have read about the black blade (if you don't over think it) is that the magical blade has its own properties and the magus can use his Arcane Pool to add the listed properties to it just like a normal magus can add properties to his +1 Spell Storing blade. The problem with this is that it's a little short sighted. As a Bladebound Magus, I am currently in the middle of a dungeon where due to damage resistance I have had to expend 3 Arcane Points to deal any sort of reasonable damage against my opponents, and this is within the first few legs of the dungeon.
We are lv.5, my Magus has an INT score of 18. The Bladebound Magus only gets 1 Arcane Point for every three levels, meaning he does not get a second point until lv.6. This means I have only two Arcane Points for the rest of the dungeon as a whole.
In two more creatures I run risk of becoming entirely incapable of dealing any significant damage with my primary weapon because I have used all of my Arcane Points because I cannot separately enhance my weapon.
Von Marshal wrote: The black blade does not get the spell storing ability on his weapon in any shape form or fasion that I can find. Thats the only draw back i can find for the BLack BLade vs the regualr magus in weapons. He doesn't have to buy his tho. So Spell storeing, thundering, and acid damage seem to be beyond the black blade. (+1 Spell Storing Thundering Corrosive Sword) seems to be what a regular magus ends up with plus a +# and his pool gives the rest. the Black Blade gets bonuses the reg magus doesnt get like extra damage (black blade strike) an unbreakable weapon, energy replacement for melee damage(for those with dr), teleport blade, eventually a larger ap with tranfer arcana, spell defence if you get high enough(yeah free sr) and life drink if you live long enough. So. is all that a resonable replacement for Spell storing and a 8d on crits and a d6 of acid damage........ i think they are evenish, depending on dungeon diving or roleplaying misshapes. You decide Further, what if I instead end up using all my Arcane Points for Spell Recall? You're saying that by being unable to add additional effects, the Bladebound Magus must choose between the effective use several class features, and standard weapon options available to any other character, archetype or otherwise.
I have gone over the Bladebound archetype several times, reveiwing it repeatedly, trying to see where it would specify that the Black Blade cannot be otherwise be given magical effects, and I cannot find anything that would explicitly preclude it.
I agree that the major challenges would lay in other smiths or crafters being able to enhance it, as it is a standard weapon in anyone elses hands, but I do not see this as being a hard no. Especially seeing as suggested Arcana for the class are things that would expend additional Arcane Points of the very limited pool the archetype has.
The simplest reason for the inability to enchant Black Blades come from looking at it's properties:
1. It is a magic item that cannot be created by PCs.
2. Many if it's rules fall outside of the 'standard rules' for item creation. (such as gaining power with the wielder, and no other weapon does that.
3. It does not have a 'market value', which is always the base needed to determine how much it would cost to enchant it anyway.
4. It can only be destroyed in one specific manor.
If you combine those features, what do you get? A minor artifact! And can you enchant artifacts? no, because their magic is boyond mortal means.
The Black Blade is a sword made of solid Plot-onium, and nothing is changing anything ebout it but the GM!
No (not supported by rules, doubtfully RAI, excluded by RAW), No (but a GM could house rule, as would technically be 'balanced' as much as the standing rules), and No (Obvious RAI issue, and most common RAW interp)
Banatine wrote: The simplest reason for the inability to enchant Black Blades come from looking at it's properties:
1. It is a magic item that cannot be created by PCs.
2. Many if it's rules fall outside of the 'standard rules' for item creation. (such as gaining power with the wielder, and no other weapon does that.
I can agree with 1, but 2 is outright incorrect.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin#TOC-Divine-Bond-Sp-
Divine Bond if taken as a weapon gains +1 bonus and various other permanent enchantments as a Paladin levels up.
Banatine wrote: 3. It does not have a 'market value', which is always the base needed to determine how much it would cost to enchant it anyway.
4. It can only be destroyed in one specific manor.
A weapon is a weapon is a weapon, and as it has a +1 enhancement already [ in the hands of the Bladebound, at least ], then it already meets the prerequisite for adding additional effects such as Keen, or Shock.
Magic Weapons wrote: Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once. For example, Dueling does not have a modified bonus, it has a flat value. The same could be said for the various bonuses of the Black Blade. Telepathy isn't a +3 cost, it's a 2,893gp [ random number provided for the sake of argument ] cost, so it doesn't equate to a +#, and therefore does not stack with the Enhancement bonuses towards the +5/+5 limits.
And a Black Blade can be destroyed so long as its pool of Arcane Points have been exhausted, at which point it could be destroyed in the same way any other weapon can be destroyed. This is not exactly one specific manner.
Banatine wrote: If you combine those features, what do you get? A minor artifact! And can you enchant artifacts? no, because their magic is boyond mortal means.
The Black Blade is a sword made of solid Plot-onium, and nothing is changing anything ebout it but the GM!
I'll give you some credit towards the artifact comparison, but it would still be nice to see some developer clarification on this front.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Drothmal wrote: Hello, these questions came up on the thread of Walter's Guide to the Magus. I thought they were important enough to put them here in the Rules section instead of the Advice section
If you find any of these questions interesting/not clear (like I do), please hit the FAQ button
1) Can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
(EDIT: like with icy, shock, speed, not +6)
2) Can a Bladebound choose to apply a weapon special property instead of normal weapon enhancement? Let's say for example by level 5: the chart says that the Blackblade has a +2 bonus, can it be a +1 spellstoring blackblade? Also, can a Black Blade be further enchanted over the +5 with normal magical weapon crafting rules?
3) A Magus uses Arcane Pool to make his weapon a +1 flaming katana: does he need then to spend a standard action to activate with a command word the flaming ability?
On a personal note, I think the answers are yes/no/no, but I saw good arguments for both sides
The one I really want to know the answer to is #1, for it makes a huge difference for the archetype in the long run...
Actually the answers are no/no/no. +5/+5 is an absolute limit for ALL non-epic weapons no matter how you get there, standard enchantment, paladin divine bond, Scrollmaster wizard, Mage Bullet, Arcane Pool, bladebound, etc. That's been stated time and time again.
LazarX wrote: Actually the answers are no/no/no. +5/+5 is an absolute limit for ALL non-epic weapons no matter how you get there, standard enchantment, paladin divine bond, Scrollmaster wizard, Mage Bullet, Arcane Pool, bladebound, etc. That's been stated time and time again. Okay, here's the issue.
A) With the exception of Question One, these questions and answers do not address the concept of spending actual gold on the weapon. They refer explicitly to the inherent bonuses the Black Blade gains as the Bladebound Magus levels up.
2) Players have said that but there is NO POINT in the writing of the game where it explicitly states that the Black Blade cannot be given specific abilities.
I agree with No to the first. I agree with No to the second. I agree with No to the third.
I am not asking these questions.
I am asking this question, and a follow-up; can a Magus can spend gold instead of Arcane Points, because he chooses to, to add special effects to his blade that would not take him past the +5 limit of Special Abilities.
Follow-up; if not, where does it specify this explicitly in the rules. Not a "Well because of class features, he doesn't need to." I am looking for a "No, he cannot because on Page X [ or a link for those of us who do not have all the books ] it states that the Black Blade cannot be given Special abilities even if the Magus pays the costs."
Answer: No he cannot.
Follow-up: Where does it specify explicitly in the rules that once a character is dead he is no longer allowed to take actions? Where does it specify explicitly that a Fighter can't use Teleport by clicking his heels three times and saying "there's no place like home"?
The rules tell you what you CAN do. Not what you CAN'T.
If you COULD further enchant the black blade, it would say in the entry that you CAN. It does not say anything about it. Therefore, you CANNOT!
I'm not sure how i can explain this any clearer.
Banatine wrote: Answer: No he cannot.
Follow-up: Where does it specify explicitly in the rules that once a character is dead he is no longer allowed to take actions? Where does it specify explicitly that a Fighter can't use Teleport by clicking his heels three times and saying "there's no place like home"?
The rules tell you what you CAN do. Not what you CAN'T.
If you COULD further enchant the black blade, it would say in the entry that you CAN. It does not say anything about it. Therefore, you CANNOT!
I'm not sure how i can explain this any clearer.
Don't be facetious. Especially when you're wrong.
Injury and Death
Paizo wrote: Dying (Negative Hit Points)
If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you're dying.
A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions.
A dying character loses 1 hit point every round. This continues until the character dies or becomes stable.
Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).
Certain types of powerful magic, such as raise dead and resurrection, can restore life to a dead character.
Paizo wrote:
Caster Level
A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the Dc of the check).
Teleport
Paizo wrote: Teleport
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner 4, magus 5, witch 5; Domain travel 5; Bloodline abyssal 7, arcane 7
I don't see Fighter listed there. I see the casters that can explicitly cast that spell and what level they need to be to do so. If a Fighter manages to get themselves the ability to cast lv.7 Wizard spells, or a pair of particularly fancy boots, he sure as hell could.
Boots of Teleportation
Paizo wrote: Boots of Teleportation
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th
Slot feet; Price 49,000 gp; Weight 3 lbs.
Description
Any character wearing this footwear may teleport three times per day, exactly as if he had cast the spell of the same name.
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, teleport; Cost 24,500 gp
It does not explicitly state that you can add special effects to the Black Blade, it also does not explicitly state that you cannot. Until we get clarification on this rule it's house ruled, and I can live with that, but it would be nice to get some clarification.
I see your quotation, but it only specifies what effect a DYING character is suffering. It never says anything about a DEAD character. Show me where it says a DEAD character cannot act, without 'house-ruling' it.
See, sometimes being rediculous is the only way to get your point across. If the word even means anything in a game where you can turn a dragon into a chicken with a couple of silly words and gestures, and you can't throw balls of fire without a handful of bat poo...
Following only the letter of the rules means you end up with a system with many, gaping, logical holes. If we are only following what is explicitly stated, then AM BARBARIAN becomes a perfectly viable character build, and he is literally the definition of facetious!
Now i think we should agree to disagree, as i fear i might start becoming belligerent if we continue like this much longer! *offers a handshake*
The black blade is a class feature, not a magical item. It is never defined as a magical item.
Quote: The problem with this is that it's a little short sighted. As a Bladebound Magus, I am currently in the middle of a dungeon where due to damage resistance I have had to expend 3 Arcane Points to deal any sort of reasonable damage against my opponents, and this is within the first few legs of the dungeon.
We are lv.5, my Magus has an INT score of 18. The Bladebound Magus only gets 1 Arcane Point for every three levels, meaning he does not get a second point until lv.6. This means I have only two Arcane Points for the rest of the dungeon as a whole.
Just deal unreasonable damage.
Conserve resources better. Buy rods of ectoplasmic metamagic. Buy a secondary weapon that breaks DR silver, DR cold iron, etc. I'm assuming you're fighting a ghost-- the black blade is +1 and deals half damage with no arcane pool point expenditure. If the DM is making you fight monsters with DR 10, DR 15 at level 5, it's not the magus's shortcomings which are crippling your character-- it's the DM's. At that point, just start cheating if you feel your DM is being absurd.
You sundered my class feature!
Banatine wrote: I see your quotation, but it only specifies what effect a DYING character is suffering. It never says anything about a DEAD character. Show me where it says a DEAD character cannot act, without 'house-ruling' it. See, sometimes being rediculous is the only way to get your point across. Oh for the love of bullets. Fine, you want to nitpick the rules away, technically it doesn't say that the dying status stops when you die. Just that you have the added state of being dead. There, now I've been ridiculous to get my point across too.
Banatine wrote: If the word even means anything in a game where you can turn a dragon into a chicken with a couple of silly words and gestures, and you can't throw balls of fire without a handful of bat poo...
Following only the letter of the rules means you end up with a system with many, gaping, logical holes. If we are only following what is explicitly stated, then AM BARBARIAN becomes a perfectly viable character build, and he is literally the definition of facetious!
Now i think we should agree to disagree, as i fear i might start becoming belligerent if we continue like this much longer! *offers a handshake*
For the record, you've already gotten belligerent. As for following only the letter, sure, I can kind of agree with you on that. But that's why my point states that no clarification means you can't assume that you can't just because it isn't said any more than you can assume that you can because it isn't said.
That's why I'm asking for developer clarification, not house rule decisions. If I wanted a house rule decision, I'd say that only the Magus can do it, seeing as its only a masterwork weapon in anyone else's hand.
I'd specify that they would require the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat, and that they would then need to meet any of the other crafting requirements. Personally, I also like the example of the Daimyo feature from Oriental Adventures, and would also allow that in my games.
As it stands, whatever. /handshake
On to the next point...
Ice Titan wrote: Conserve resources better. Buy rods of ectoplasmic metamagic. Buy a secondary weapon that breaks DR silver, DR cold iron, etc. I'm assuming you're fighting a ghost-- Constructs.
Ice Titan wrote: the black blade is +1 and deals half damage with no arcane pool point expenditure. I'm not sure where you're getting that even a little bit.
Ice Titan wrote: If the DM is making you fight monsters with DR 10, DR 15 at level 5, it's not the magus's shortcomings which are crippling your character-- it's the DM's. At that point, just start cheating if you feel your DM is being absurd. Just DR 5, but that's the issue. My best and in some cases only way to bypass that as a Magus with the Black Blade is with Arcane Points.
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