Masterwork Transformation legal for PFS play?


Pathfinder Society

1 to 50 of 89 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
The Exchange

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

hey all, is it legal to use Masterwork Transformation (ultimate magic)in PFS play to turn a non-masterwork heirloom weapon into a masterwork heirloom weapon permanently ? ( being a bard, buying a 2nd level scroll when i have access to it, and casting it myself )

its not called out as being illegal in the additional resources section of the site. but i don't know how instantaneous ,aka. really permanent, spells work in society with the upgrading equipment rules.

Grand Lodge

Seraphimpunk wrote:
its not called out as being illegal in the additional resources section of the site. but i don't know how instantaneous ,aka. really permanent, spells work in society with the upgrading equipment rules.

(Hopefully without a huge drama-storm...)

No, it's not legal. The effect would end at the end of the session.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

is that along the line of reasoning that day per level buffs like Ironwood only last the session? "any spell cast by a PC and still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does." ? because i don't think that applies. its an instantaneous spell, its not 'active' when the scenario ends like ironwood.

or does that mean spells like remove disease and raise dead would only last until the end of the session too?

( just getting clarification. pfs already allows you to upgrade masterwork weapons to magic weapons, and the only thing this would effect is heirloom items becoming masterwork items by spending the appropriate gold ( 450gp for a scroll ). storywise/game wise, having a particular weapon be made masterwork doesn't negatively impact anything )

the developers seem to have just written in a way for a character to start with a sword, make that sword masterwork without re-forging the weapon, and then later upgrade that to a magic item. its a fair process, and costs an additional 150gp (beyond the mwk cost of the item ) if you do it from a scroll, a fair addition to the price IMHO.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

ahh boo. did some searching and found mention of it , where its vetoed by mark link

::shrug:: i guess my character will keep his heirloom weapon, and buy a masterwork one eventually. the heirloom one provides better bonuses for maneuvers, even when masterwork or magic is applied to the item.

I hope it enters the FAQ at some point.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:

ahh boo. did some searching and found mention of it , where its vetoed by mark link

::shrug:: i guess my character will keep his heirloom weapon, and buy a masterwork one eventually. the heirloom one provides better bonuses for maneuvers, even when masterwork or magic is applied to the item.

I hope it enters the FAQ at some point.

The additional resources indicate how to retcon your heirloom weapon.

If you had one prior to the date of the change to Armory book (forget its name) then you get to keep the masterwork quality of the weapon.


Who cares if it only lasts to the end of the session? It only needs to last long enough to enchant it.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

waytoomuchcoffee wrote:
Who cares if it only lasts to the end of the session? It only needs to last long enough to enchant it.

I don't think so. A weapon that reverted back to non-masterwork status, would no longer qualify for the enhancements applied to it. Essentially, the magic would "bleed" out of the item since it was no longer of a quality capable of maintaining it.

Since Ultimate Magic is a relatively new product, and Masterwork Transformation is assumed to be a permanent effect, I don't recall seeing anything that would cover this issue.

Actually, IMO, it's more of a general PF question moreso than PFS. What would happen to your magic item if the Masterwork Transformation was dispelled? That would essentially be the same thing we're talking about with regards to its duration ending at the conclusion of a scenario.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Actually, IMO, it's more of a general PF question moreso than PFS. What would happen to your magic item if the Masterwork Transformation was dispelled? That would essentially be the same thing we're talking about with regards to its duration ending at the conclusion of a scenario.

Since the duration is instantaneous, it wouldn't be dispellable.

I don't think it would be vulnerable to a Break Enchantment, either.

To be honest, other than a Limited Wish or better, I don't think this could be a regular PF issue. It is caused by one of the PFS house rules, the one about effects from spells not continuing past the end of an adevnture.

Sovereign Court

This whole issue seems to be made way too complicated. Let them use Masterwork Transformation to keep their Heirloom Weapons competitive. It still costs a lot (more) to upgrade via the spell. There's just no reason to deny this action, nor does it have ways to abuse it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As long it gets flagged FAQ, it may get addressed. The blanket instantaneous durations ending at the end it kind of silly when you look at all spells that have that duration.

Is this blanket rule in the Guide to Organized Play?

Grand Lodge

Shar Tahl wrote:
Is this blanket rule in the Guide to Organized Play?
The Guide, pg. 20 wrote:
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts bless on the party and bless is still active when the scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create undead or fabricate.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Shar Tahl wrote:

As long it gets flagged FAQ, it may get addressed. The blanket instantaneous durations ending at the end it kind of silly when you look at all spells that have that duration.

Is this blanket rule in the Guide to Organized Play?

As far as I can tell, the real reason that instantaneous spells expire is to prevent necromancers from slowly amassing a huge army of undead. The rule makes no sense with a lot of other instantaneous spells, such as healing spells or make whole. It would make more sense to me to simply limit created undead as combat "buddies", the same way that familiars/animal companions/eidolons are; e.g., one at a time.

I could see fabricate being a possible issue too, as PFS PCs aren't supposed to be able to make stuff at the 1/3 cost rate. Plus, you could get cheap full plate that way - 500gp raw materials, pay 450gp for the wizard to cast it = 950gp full plate.

They shoulc clarify that certain instantaneous spells do not expire - otherwise, RAW, raise dead expires at the end of the session and that makes no sense. No one (AFAIK) actually plays that way.


Quote:


I don't think so. A weapon that reverted back to non-masterwork status, would no longer qualify for the enhancements applied to it. Essentially, the magic would "bleed" out of the item since it was no longer of a quality capable of maintaining it.

"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality." The rule doesn't say they were masterwork to begin with or not, as it doesn't matter. Read as written, once it is magic, it is considered to be masterwork.

Sovereign Court

Mark Garringer wrote:
Shar Tahl wrote:
Is this blanket rule in the Guide to Organized Play?
The Guide, pg. 20 wrote:
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts bless on the party and bless is still active when the scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create undead or fabricate.

Seems easily solvable... pay an NPC to cast the spell on your weapon.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

waytoomuchcoffee wrote:
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality." The rule doesn't say they were masterwork to begin with or not, as it doesn't matter. Read as written, once it is magic, it is considered to be masterwork.

From a build perspective, that is very confusing. So if I create a new item with a +1 enhancement, then it is automatically MW. That does not seem to jive with the build progression of mundane-masterwork-enchanted.

IMO, this is a question moreso for the general rules forum, but keep in mind that the magic item creation rules are core and at that time, a way to modify a mundane item directly to masterwork quality did not exist.

If it is possible to "dispel" the effect of Masterwork Transformation you enter the realm of GM adjudication. So first we would need to determine if dispel effects can affect MT. And if so, what happens to an enhanced item when this occurs.

Of course, the easy decision, and probably the correct one for organized play, would be to make it immune to dispelling, rendering the second part moot.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Zape wrote:
Seems easily solvable... pay an NPC to cast the spell on your weapon.

While perhaps this may be true by strict RAW, I do not think this adheres to the intention of the rules. We just need to correct the language to eliminate the "by a PC."

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
waytoomuchcoffee wrote:
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality." The rule doesn't say they were masterwork to begin with or not, as it doesn't matter. Read as written, once it is magic, it is considered to be masterwork.

From a build perspective, that is very confusing. So if I create a new item with a +1 enhancement, then it is automatically MW. That does not seem to jive with the build progression of mundane-masterwork-enchanted.

IMO, this is a question moreso for the general rules forum, but keep in mind that the magic item creation rules are core and at that time, a way to modify a mundane item directly to masterwork quality did not exist.

If it is possible to "dispel" the effect of Masterwork Transformation you enter the realm of GM adjudication. So first we would need to determine if dispel effects can affect MT. And if so, what happens to an enhanced item when this occurs.

Of course, the easy decision, and probably the correct one for organized play, would be to make it immune to dispelling, rendering the second part moot.

Well masterwork transformation is an instantaneous effect, therefore dispel would not work on it.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Andrew Christian wrote:


Well masterwork transformation is an instantaneous effect, therefore dispel would not work on it.

I wasn't limiting my comments to the Dispel Magic spell, but including other methods for dispelling effects. Without thoroughly researching (which I am not inclined to do for this minor issue), I don't know if there are other ways to render the item mundane again.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:


Well masterwork transformation is an instantaneous effect, therefore dispel would not work on it.
I wasn't limiting my comments to the Dispel Magic spell, but including other methods for dispelling effects. Without thoroughly researching (which I am not inclined to do for this minor issue), I don't know if there are other ways to render the item mundane again.

If the effect is instantaneous, then there is no spell effect to dispel. Therefore you could not render the item non-masterwork without some other spell effect that would transform it backwards.

The only magic that can be dispelled are on-going magical effects. When the duration is instantaneous, the magic happens in the moment the spell is cast, and then no longer is considered on-going. The item the spell affected is now essentially a different item.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
waytoomuchcoffee wrote:


"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality." The rule doesn't say they were masterwork to begin with or not, as it doesn't matter. Read as written, once it is magic, it is considered to be masterwork.

Enchantment requires that the target item be masterwork.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
waytoomuchcoffee wrote:


"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality." The rule doesn't say they were masterwork to begin with or not, as it doesn't matter. Read as written, once it is magic, it is considered to be masterwork.

Enchantment requires that the target item be masterwork.

He knows that. What’ he’s saying is that when you use masterwork transformation to turn a weapon masterwork, and then enchant it before the “PFS Campaign home-rule for instantaneous effects ending at the end of a session”, then the masterwork would not go away, because by rule all magic items are masterwork.


ryric wrote:


... The rule makes no sense with a lot of other instantaneous spells, such as healing spells or make whole...

They shoulc clarify that certain instantaneous spells do not expire - otherwise, RAW, raise dead expires at the end of the session and that makes no sense. No one (AFAIK) actually plays that way.

Ouch, it sounds like PFS would have a fairly high mortality/creating new characters rate if that was true.

Shadow Lodge

So, either:
1) Cast it yourself and get it turned into a magic weapon by the end of the scenario.

or

2) Have an NPC cast it and thus it will not end at the end of the scenario, and you can keep it mw or enchant it whenever you feel like.

Both sound perfectly legit to me.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:

ahh boo. did some searching and found mention of it , where its vetoed by mark link

::shrug:: i guess my character will keep his heirloom weapon, and buy a masterwork one eventually. the heirloom one provides better bonuses for maneuvers, even when masterwork or magic is applied to the item.

I hope it enters the FAQ at some point.

The additional resources indicate how to retcon your heirloom weapon.

If you had one prior to the date of the change to Armory book (forget its name) then you get to keep the masterwork quality of the weapon.

my character is new, for the intro series. I took heirloom weapon in the errata'ed version. Everyone who had it previously gets to pay 300gp and keep their masterwork heirloom weapon, and continue to pay money to make it magical.

I can't, because they've vetoed using masterwork transformation to pay 450gp and turn my own weapon into a masterwork weapon.

Getting it upgraded immediately that session to a magic weapon might work.

It might eventually avoid the whole thing when i gain bard 5 as an arcane duelist and turn my heirloom whip into my arcane bonded item, which as per wizard, is masterwork. or would i only be able to use an existing masterwork whip as my bonded item? i would then be able to magic it to +1 myself for 1000gp since it functions as the wizard's arcane bond with items and 5th level bard meets the requirements for craft magic arms and armor to augment his bonded item.


Bob Jonquet wrote:


If it is possible to "dispel" the effect of Masterwork Transformation you enter the realm of GM adjudication.

It's not possible to do so, nor is it possible to 'dispel' past cure spells on your PC...

Honestly the rule on carrying over effects is frankly too broad in scope and confusing to say the least when you really think about it.

Rather than do this, address the one or two spells that there might be an issue with...

What would they be?

Fabricate? Say the cost for this spell is the normal cost to buy such an item. Done.

Animate Dead? Limit the number of combatant 'pets' that a PC can bring into a mod. Done.

What else?

James

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I find James and myself in agreement.

The rule that all spells end at the completion of a scenario is (a) artificial to the PFS OP environment, (b) overbroad. As everyone helpfully notes, it's not true for the results of some, but not all, instantaneous spells.

It's ambiguous whether it applies to conditions brought about by spells. (Blindness from blindness, or a disease from contagion]. A weapon's condition from [i]rusting grasp or make whole.

I am happy to judge the game as the campaign coordinators see fit. But I'm of the opinion that Pathfinder Society can serve as an introduction the the Pathfinder game line, and the fewer special rules cases that the campaign coordinators deem necessary, the better it serves that purpose.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:

I find James and myself in agreement.

A sign of the Apocalypse no doubt. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Garringer wrote:
Shar Tahl wrote:
Is this blanket rule in the Guide to Organized Play?
The Guide, pg. 20 wrote:
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts bless on the party and bless is still active when the scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create undead or fabricate.

This, by default, also means an item that has the opposite happen, such as disintegrate cast on it is made whole again after the scenario is over. This rule is seriously flawed as written and need revision.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Shar Tahl wrote:
Mark Garringer wrote:
Shar Tahl wrote:
Is this blanket rule in the Guide to Organized Play?
The Guide, pg. 20 wrote:
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC casts bless on the party and bless is still active when the scenario ends, the bless spell ends at the conclusion of the scenario. This includes spells with an instantaneous or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create undead or fabricate.
This, by default, also means an item that has the opposite happen, such as disintegrate cast on it is made whole again after the scenario is over. This rule is seriously flawed as written and need revision.

Not unless the Disintegrate was cast by another PC, which would probably run straight into either the no PvP or the Don't Be a Jerk rules.

The rule is both too broad, and too narrow, at the same time.

Too broad, in that it would negate the effects of a Raise Dead cast by a PC on another PC or NPC at the end of the module, along with any form of Restoration spell used.

Too narrow in that it is prejudicial against PCs.

Is there a reason a PC cannot cast, at normal cost, Continual Flame on his shield, and, forevermore have a shield that glows in the dark? After all, there are both advantages and disadvantages to this approach, since it makes it a lot harder to use Stealth, as an example.

And there is already an example in the rulebooks of an item permanently enchanted with Continual Flame that only has costs for the material components (50 gp) and the item being enchanted (25 gp), since an Ioun Torch only costs 75 gp.

Yes, if they list out the spells that explicitly cannot continue after a module ends, it may take some additional work when a new resource with new spells comes out, but it would be better for the campaign.

It would also allow certain spells that are currently forbidden to work more the way the PTB, old at least, would have wanted. Permanent would probably work better, in PFS terms, as an extension on spell duration to just the length of the module. Of course, that would probably require a pricing adjudication, but they should have already done that for Continual Flame, in my opinion.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mark clarified instantaneous spells here.

Paraphrasing, a spell which removes a condition (including damage) does not revert to reinstating the condition. A spell which creates or enchants or transmutes (etc) will expire at the end of a scenario.

So because masterwork transformation actually changes the weapon into something different, it expires. Make whole, which removes the broken condition, would not.

Shadow Lodge

So, Fireballs create damage, right? So they revert at the end of the scenario, right? So if somebody uses a spell to meet the goals of their faction mission, those are reversed at the end of the scenario so they likely wouldn't get their prestige?

Liberty's Edge 4/5

K Neil Shackleton wrote:

Mark clarified instantaneous spells here.

Paraphrasing, a spell which removes a condition (including damage) does not revert to reinstating the condition. A spell which creates or enchants or transmutes (etc) will expire at the end of a scenario.

So because masterwork transformation actually changes the weapon into something different, it expires. Make whole, which removes the broken condition, would not.

So, since it is a transmutation spell, Stone to Flesh would end at the end of a module?

Be careful how you answer that, this is a campaign legal, if not utterly required, spell for the campaign (Sorry, played a scenario recently which had a couple of medusae in it, so being able to transform some PCs back into flesh is essential.)

So, if you get turned into stone by a medusa, gorgon, etc., you will need a Stone to Flesh cast on you at the beginning of any game you want to play this character in?

BTW, Masterwork Transformation does not change the weapon into something different, it is still an X if it was an X before. All it does, really, is remove the non-masterwork condition that the weapon suffered from previously. See? It is all in how you want to phrase it.

Grand Lodge

Callarek wrote:
K Neil Shackleton wrote:

Mark clarified instantaneous spells here.

Paraphrasing, a spell which removes a condition (including damage) does not revert to reinstating the condition. A spell which creates or enchants or transmutes (etc) will expire at the end of a scenario.

So because masterwork transformation actually changes the weapon into something different, it expires. Make whole, which removes the broken condition, would not.

So, since it is a transmutation spell, Stone to Flesh would end at the end of a module?

Be careful how you answer that, this is a campaign legal, if not utterly required, spell for the campaign (Sorry, played a scenario recently which had a couple of medusae in it, so being able to transform some PCs back into flesh is essential.)

So, if you get turned into stone by a medusa, gorgon, etc., you will need a Stone to Flesh cast on you at the beginning of any game you want to play this character in?

BTW, Masterwork Transformation does not change the weapon into something different, it is still an X if it was an X before. All it does, really, is remove the non-masterwork condition that the weapon suffered from previously. See? It is all in how you want to phrase it.

Stone to flesh changes a condition permanently, once that happens it doesn't revert back at the end of a scenario.

Petrified Condition wrote:

A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character's petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

There is no non-masterwork condition.

Grand Lodge

Varthanna wrote:
So, Fireballs create damage, right? So they revert at the end of the scenario, right? So if somebody uses a spell to meet the goals of their faction mission, those are reversed at the end of the scenario so they likely wouldn't get their prestige?

Fireballs do not create an on going effect and do not revert at the end of a scenario. The do however inflict damage and damage is not a condition. There are rule for recovering hit points and it is assumed that a character avails himself to one of the may ways of healing between sessions.

I have doubts that even though a person were to cast the spell continual flame during a mission to satisfy a mission goal would retroactively loose them just because the scenario was finished. It hasn't come up yet, doubt that it will.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Stone to flesh changes a condition permanently, once that happens it doesn't revert back at the end of a scenario.

So, according to the normal PF rules, does Masterwork Transformation.

It has a duration of instantaneous. It changes something into something else, just like Stone to Flesh does.

So, masterwork and non-masterwork are not conditions. Is dead a condition?

Shadow Lodge

Callarek wrote:


So, according to the normal PF rules, does Masterwork Transformation.

It has a duration of instantaneous. It changes something into something else, just like Stone to Flesh does.

So, masterwork and non-masterwork are not conditions. Is dead a condition?

Both dead and unconscious are conditions, which is why the fireball'd person would rez and you would get no prestige.

Grand Lodge

Callarek wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Stone to flesh changes a condition permanently, once that happens it doesn't revert back at the end of a scenario.

So, according to the normal PF rules, does Masterwork Transformation.

It has a duration of instantaneous. It changes something into something else, just like Stone to Flesh does.

So, masterwork and non-masterwork are not conditions. Is dead a condition?

Yes Dead is a condition.

Dead wrote:

The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

A complete list of conditions you can find it at http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#conditions


Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Callarek wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Stone to flesh changes a condition permanently, once that happens it doesn't revert back at the end of a scenario.

So, according to the normal PF rules, does Masterwork Transformation.

It has a duration of instantaneous. It changes something into something else, just like Stone to Flesh does.

So, masterwork and non-masterwork are not conditions. Is dead a condition?

Yes Dead is a condition.

Dead wrote:

The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

A complete list of conditions you can find it at http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#conditions

"Wounded" is not a condition.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast aka heretic

Since the Original Heirloom Weapon thread I wondered about how Masterwork Transformation would work in PFS. This thread has pretty much settled the staus quo.

Though I don't "like" it as such: The situation seems clear enough: under current rules the spell effect won't last further than the end of the session it was cast.

PFRPG rules allow some things that the PFS rules don't, this is one of them. I suspect it is a case of old rules not quite gelling with new circumstances (the spell is new, the rules on conditions that govern this kind of thing having been here from year dot)

Two questions remain I think: as to wether an item under the effect of the spell can then be enchanted and if so are there any further ramifications! Also is this spell actually worth having a specific errata to get around the problem and allow it to persist (and thus be practically speaking relevant to PFS play)?

IMHO for what it is worth: if the rules allow Enchanting it to go on fire and cast lightning bolt when it hits someone then logically they should also permit one to enchant it to be a little stronger and better balanced.

Not a matter of the utmost urgency but it would be nice to have the Heirloom Weapon issue finally put to bed.

W

Sovereign Court

Callarek wrote:
Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:
Stone to flesh changes a condition permanently, once that happens it doesn't revert back at the end of a scenario.
So, according to the normal PF rules, does Masterwork Transformation.

+1

I'd like to hear other than stubborn, unreasonable excuses as to why Masterwork Transformation should be banned. It isn't game-breaking; you still pay the price (often you need to get the scroll too).

Liberty's Edge

<Example of something I often find maddening on Paizo forum....>

Poster #1 wrote:

So, either:

1) Cast it yourself and get it turned into a magic weapon by the end of the scenario.

or

2) Have an NPC cast it and thus it will not end at the end of the scenario, and you can keep it mw or enchant it whenever you feel like.

Both sound perfectly legit to me.

I.e., ray of sunshine for the Heirloom PCs. ....But wait:

Poster #2 wrote:

Mark clarified instantaneous spells here.

Paraphrasing, a spell which removes a condition (including damage) does not revert to reinstating the condition. A spell which creates or enchants or transmutes (etc) will expire at the end of a scenario.

So because masterwork transformation actually changes the weapon into something different, it expires. Make whole, which removes the broken condition, would not.

Dark clouds suddenly close in on the ray of sunshine. Or do they? -- What Poster 2 writes doesn't directly refute what Poster 1 wrote, or address it (and thus the maddening incongruity prompting one to grab a fistful of hair and begin to tear).

Poster #3 wrote:
Not a matter of the utmost urgency but it would be nice to have the Heirloom Weapon issue finally put to bed.

Exactly.

One gets a general impression that the campaign doesn't like it, but that it isn't willing to definitively "put its foot down" (when doing so would be as easy as just saying so) for some reason which remains evasively obtuse from the player's perspective.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Please don't tear your hair out, Mike :)

I was not responding to Poster #1, but referring people to Mark's original statement about what instantaneous spells "expire", as part of the broader discussion. It was more of a response to Callarek's post directly preceding mine for example.

And I was only linking/paraphrasing the earlier post, not discussing rationale.

Poster #2

Grand Lodge

Mike Schneider wrote:
One gets a general impression that the campaign doesn't like it, but that it isn't willing to definitively "put its foot down" (when doing so would be as easy as just saying so) for some reason which remains evasively obtuse from the player's perspective.

Since it is presently not legal to do so, I'm not sure how this could be more definitive?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

While you might question the reasoning why Masterwork Transformation is illegal, as the rules exist, it is just that. So, the question as to "how" it works in PFS is moot. Feel free to continue to discuss your opinion whether or not that it "should" be banned.

Our new CC (Mike Brock) is well aware that there might (some opinions) be some ambiguity in the existing general rule as to what spells do/do not persist beyond the end of a scenario. I am sure he will be addressing that concern in the near future and the language will be adjusted if necessary.

The FAQ is still a relatively new feature for PFS and once Mike gets relocated, it can receive the attention that frankly Mark has not had the time to devote.

I expect that as a new employee, Mike will impress his new bosses by working 30 hour-days, seven days a week, to give all of the society everything we have asked for. He will then personally, hand-deliver, the update Guide to all players :-)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
I expect that as a new employee, Mike will impress his new bosses by working 30 hour-days, seven days a week, to give all of the society everything we have asked for. He will then personally, hand-deliver, the update Guide to all players :-)

After that, he will balance the federal budget, negotiate world peace, and bring about a Super Bowl victory for the Hawks.

Okay, I'm kidding about the Super Bowl.

Sovereign Court

Bob Jonquet wrote:

While you might question the reasoning why Masterwork Transformation is illegal, as the rules exist, it is just that. So, the question as to "how" it works in PFS is moot. Feel free to continue to discuss your opinion whether or not that it "should" be banned.

The problem with your statement is that it's based on the false assumption the PC will cast it. The only rule that would prevent Masterwork Transformation from lasting beyond the current session applies only if a PC does it. There is nothing in the guide that says spells cast by an NPC go away. I know I have a player who has every intention of spending the 450(300+150) GP soon, and I see no grounds to deny this spell casting service.

Grand Lodge

Fozzy Hammer wrote:

"Wounded" is not a condition.

I'm not sure that this is directed at me as I don't think that I have claimed it so. But you are right "wounded" is not a condition.

Grand Lodge

Zape wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:

While you might question the reasoning why Masterwork Transformation is illegal, as the rules exist, it is just that. So, the question as to "how" it works in PFS is moot. Feel free to continue to discuss your opinion whether or not that it "should" be banned.

The problem with your statement is that it's based on the false assumption the PC will cast it. The only rule that would prevent Masterwork Transformation from lasting beyond the current session applies only if a PC does it. There is nothing in the guide that says spells cast by an NPC go away. I know I have a player who has every intention of spending the 450(300+150) GP soon, and I see no grounds to deny this spell casting service.

No that's not true, we assume that no one will cast it in the scope of a PFS game. It can't be used by NPC or PC. No scenario has been or will be written with NPCs that will perform spell acting that violates these rules.

Sovereign Court

Michael Griffin-Wade wrote:


No that's not true, we assume that no one will cast it in the scope of a PFS game. It can't be used by NPC or PC. No scenario has been or will be written with NPCs that will perform spell acting that violates these rules.

How can I take that back to a player? It is not in the restricted spells list from the resources guide, and Spellcasting Services section of the guide pretty much says spells less than 7th level can be purchased using the cost rules from page 159 of the Core rulebook. Sure, it's not been used in a scenario, but that same logic could be applied to a large range of spells. "Sample spellcasting costs for common spells" and look on the following page for rules on pricing other spells both make me wonder where I can find the text you are suggesting says it violates some rules.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm sorry, Michael; I don't understand.

The PFS OP rules explain that --as a special frule of organized play --the duration of spells cast by Player Characters always end between scenarios.

Quote:
Any spell cast by a PC during the course of a scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends when the scenario does. ... This includes spells with an instantaneous or permanent duration, such as continual flame, create undead or fabricate.

1) Already, there's a problem, because when we talk about instantaeneous spells like fireball and animate dead, the spell has already ended. So there's a gentlemen's understanding that this includes spell effects, not just spells. So not only is it the case that permanent spells like continual flames peter out, but the effects of instantaneous spells also end. That's not how the guide reads, but that's the interpretation we use.

2a) But not all spells with instantaneous durations. Cure serous wounds has an immediate duration, but we don't imagine that characters sudenly re-take damage. Make whole has an immediate duration, but we don't presume that your restored weapon is broken at the beginning of the next adventure. Raise dead. Etc.

2b) A few people have claimed that the actual, intended meaning here is that the effects of spells that PCs cast, that have a permanent or instantaneous duration, end, unless they remove a condition. So remove disease removes a condition, so it's permanent, but the effects of contagion would go away at the end of the scenario, because it doesn't remove a condition. Make whole removes the "broken" condition, so it's permanent, but masterwork transformation doesn't remove a condition, so its effects would fade away at the completion of a scenario.

2c) But cure spells don't remove a condition, so we need another exception: ...or unless they heal damage. Spels like stone to flesh don't remove a condition, either. Do their effects continue permanently? Do we need another exception?

Well, okay, so the work around is for a Pathfinder to get an NPC to cast the spell.

Quote:
Generally speaking, you can pay to have spells cast on you at any time during the scenario so long as you’re in a settlement or have access to a church, temple, shrine, or wandering mystic. Page 163 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook covers the rules for purchasing spellcasting services and the associated costs are listed in the “Spellcasting and Services” table on page 159...Spells that are 7th level or higher are not available from spellcasting services.

Spells like stone to flesh and masterwork transformation fall into this category of spells that PCs can't use successfully, but we can get NPCs to cast.

3) But you are now asserting a new rule, that NPCs will never cast instantaneous or permanent spells for Pathfinders. That's wholly new, and doesn't seem to make sense.

Look, there's something going on with some long-lasting spells. Somebody doesn't like something about them. But making a rule, and then kludging it, and then kludging the kludges, and on and on: it's bad game design.

Speaking for myself as a table-GM, I have no idea what the campaign leaders want.

1 to 50 of 89 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Masterwork Transformation legal for PFS play? All Messageboards