Holy Gun paladin archtype from Ultimate Combat...why!?


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The Exchange

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

why would you ever want to give up persistent smite until said creature is dead, with +cha to hit, +level to damage, in order to get a grit deed that you can use, is dependent on another ability score (wis), and costs 1 grit to use, and doesn't give a bonus to hit, just slightly more damage, each time you spend a grit??


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:

why would you ever want to give up persistent smite until said creature is dead, with +cha to hit, +level to damage, in order to get a grit deed that you can use, is dependent on another ability score (wis), and costs 1 grit to use, and doesn't give a bonus to hit, just slightly more damage, each time you spend a grit??

...because you want a gun at level 1?

Honestly, I don't see the appeal of guns outside of the Gunslinger and the wizard archetype.


Here's a superior Gun-Paladin build: Take Mysterious Stranger 1, prioritizing Cha heavily. Then go paladin.

Bang! You win over Holy Gun.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Perhaps it is there for those who want to do Rolland from Steven King's Dark Tower series


A standard paladin is 1000% more effective than a Holy Gun at shooting things. The ONLY thing that Holy Gun does better is let you have a gun at first level. That's it. It's a ridiculously worthless archetype.


Because it lets you be a GUN PALADIN.


Jonathon Vining wrote:
Because it lets you be a GUN PALADIN.

You can be a GUN PALADIN from second level onwards with the plain jane Core Rulebook paladin. No need to completely gimp yourself long term by giving up Smite Evil for an extremely cruddy 3.0 throwback variant.


Well, he smites with every shot for double damage against the big baddies. It gets depleted quickly, but someone's going to hurt.


Fozbek wrote:
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Because it lets you be a GUN PALADIN.
You can be a GUN PALADIN from second level onwards with the plain jane Core Rulebook paladin. No need to completely gimp yourself long term by giving up Smite Evil for an extremely cruddy 3.0 throwback variant.

Although i agree with you, the gun paladin's smite has one more extra, always twice damage against undead, evil dragons, and evil outsiders.

Also the standard paladin has to spend two feats on this (amateur gunslinger and gunsmith)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

not if he does do it the gunslinger 1/paladin 1 method.
he'd get gunsmith, and grit.

the regular paladin would get twice their usual smite damage vs. the big baddies too, on the first hit.

and they wouldn't have to spend a grit, even if they miss. if you spent grit when you connected, it wouldn't be bad. but when you have a chance to miss, it can suck.


leo1925 wrote:
Although i agree with you, the gun paladin's smite has one more extra, always twice damage against undead, evil dragons, and evil outsiders.

Not really, no. You have to spend a standard action to use Smiting Shot. That means you get one shot a round with it (two with a double-barreled gun, I guess, if you want to take -4 to hit and have twice the misfire). The normal paladin gets his first attack at double smite too, and he's not limited to just one attack a round or to Charisma mod smiting attacks per day (or to one per day for the first ten levels).

Holy Gun is mind-bleedingly bad. It's so bad that it would be a bad archetype for the 3.5 Paladin.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

jah. remove the deed. and give him back smite. and fine its a fine archtype. the deed / taking away smite just makes it ... cannon fodder. ::snickers::


The Holy Gun Paladin doesn't seem that bad actually. Going this route means having a high Wisdom stat but since you are ranged now you don't need STR as much. With Extra Grit you can be quite good. Say you have +2 Wisdom bonus. You gain 1 Grit per day and have max of 2. With Extra Grit you gain 3 per day and have max of 4.

Now you a ranged touch attack that does your CHR modifier + Paladin level and if you kill the target or score critical hit you gain 1 grit back possibly two if critical and kill the target.

For example a 1st level Holy Gun Paladin with +3 Dex bonus, +2 Wis bonus and +3 Chr Bonus is shooting a group of Zombies(4). He target a 10 touch AC with a +4 to hit. Doing a musket for 1D12 +5 damage for an average of 12 damage (6.5+5). That kills the zombie, regain a grit shoot the next zombie. So in this fight on average the Holy Gun will regain grit with every shot allowing 4 smiting shots against 4 zombies. The regular Paladin gets to smite 1 zombie and the smite does double damage the first attack only and last until the zombie is dead. Seems better than regular paladin to me. As well better than archer too who has to deal with 5 DR on their ranged attacks where the haven't picked up a Strong Pull bow yet.

So from what I can it's not too weak nor too powerful.


Fozbek wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Although i agree with you, the gun paladin's smite has one more extra, always twice damage against undead, evil dragons, and evil outsiders.

Not really, no. You have to spend a standard action to use Smiting Shot. That means you get one shot a round with it (two with a double-barreled gun, I guess, if you want to take -4 to hit and have twice the misfire). The normal paladin gets his first attack at double smite too, and he's not limited to just one attack a round or to Charisma mod smiting attacks per day (or to one per day for the first ten levels).

Holy Gun is mind-bleedingly bad. It's so bad that it would be a bad archetype for the 3.5 Paladin.

Ok first of all we still wait for a clarification/FAQ on double pistol, i seriously doubt that it can give you manyshot on every attack, effectively doubling the number of your attacks.

Now yes i know what you are talking about and i agree with you, but the thing is that a gun paladin should be played the way voska66 said, but still this way might not be good enough at higher levels where you get a big number of attacks.


voska66 wrote:
For example a 1st level Holy Gun Paladin with +3 Dex bonus, +2 Wis bonus and +3 Chr Bonus is shooting a group of Zombies(4). He target a 10 touch AC with a +4 to hit.

Sure, until one of them gets into melee combat. Then you're attacking a 10 touch AC with -4 to hit because of fighting in melee and soft cover penalties, because you had to spend your feat on not making the class suck instead of getting Precise Shot.

Also, your example ONLY works against CR 1 enemies and ONLY if the Holy Gun never misses. As soon as you miss, or roll below average, or fight something tougher than a baseline zombie, skeleton, dretch, or lemure, you're totally screwed. And your attack damage basically doesn't scale, because you're permanently restricted to only a single attack if you want to smite.


Fozbek wrote:
voska66 wrote:
For example a 1st level Holy Gun Paladin with +3 Dex bonus, +2 Wis bonus and +3 Chr Bonus is shooting a group of Zombies(4). He target a 10 touch AC with a +4 to hit.

Sure, until one of them gets into melee combat. Then you're attacking a 10 touch AC with -4 to hit because of fighting in melee and soft cover penalties, because you had to spend your feat on not making the class suck instead of getting Precise Shot.

Also, your example ONLY works against CR 1 enemies and ONLY if the Holy Gun never misses. As soon as you miss, or roll below average, or fight something tougher than a baseline zombie, skeleton, dretch, or lemure, you're totally screwed. And your attack damage basically doesn't scale, because you're permanently restricted to only a single attack if you want to smite.

Guys 2nd level, not 1st. The gun paladin gets his smiting shot in the 2nd level.


voska66 wrote:
The regular Paladin gets to smite 1 zombie and the smite does double damage the first attack only and last until the zombie is dead.

A Paladin who uses Smite on an enemy that can be killed in one shot is a stupid Paladin. (And likely a dead Paladin.)


Fozbek wrote:
voska66 wrote:
For example a 1st level Holy Gun Paladin with +3 Dex bonus, +2 Wis bonus and +3 Chr Bonus is shooting a group of Zombies(4). He target a 10 touch AC with a +4 to hit.

Sure, until one of them gets into melee combat. Then you're attacking a 10 touch AC with -4 to hit because of fighting in melee and soft cover penalties, because you had to spend your feat on not making the class suck instead of getting Precise Shot.

What?

First of all how precise shot helps you with soft cover penalties*? and why exactly are you taking a -4 penalty for firing someone who is in melee with you?
or by the "one of them gets into melee combat" you mean with one of your allies? if yes then i agree with you.

*improved precise shot helps you with soft cover penalties.


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Whether or not you think it is bad, it HAD TO BE DONE!

Have Gun Will Travel featured a man called Paladin who traveled around the old west and blasted bad guys, sometimes fr profit ;)

if you notice several of the feats and abilities pay homage to this popular and classic show, which many of you should watch, because it was definitely groundbreaking for its time.

How often did you hear a character on tv from that time frame say things like "I don't want to kill you, but i will kill you, and your brother, and anyone else that stands in my way."

classic, man, classic.

And I LOVE the holy gun.


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgvxu8QY01s

here's a link.


Because archtypes are the new bloat.

To everyone going "Ok but I want to play this character," you're missing something: you can do that with the regular paladin.

Ideally archtypes are something that shakes up the class and brings something new and unique to it. In reality, they make great page fillers.


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archtypes are the new prestige classes. it's the exact same bloat all over. i see that Cirno has noticed it as well.

i beleive that instead of making special archtypes that give free guns off the bat, they should have just made the guns a lot cheaper. i mean 1st level pocket change cheap. i beleive that removing the misfire chance and making the revolver (an advanced firearm,) the default pistol could have gone a long way.

guns are literally the only weapon that suffer a penalty for low rolls.

roll a 1 on a bow attack, your bowstring doesn't snap

roll a 1 on a crossbow attack, the lever doesn't jam

roll a 1 on a sword swing, the sword doesn't crack

but roll a 1 on a gun and it suddenly explodes.

fricken BS.

remove the damn misfire chance.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

archtypes are the new prestige classes. it's the exact same bloat all over. i see that Cirno has noticed it as well.

i beleive that instead of making special archtypes that give free guns off the bat, they should have just made the guns a lot cheaper. i mean 1st level pocket change cheap. i beleive that removing the misfire chance and making the revolver (an advanced firearm,) the default pistol could have gone a long way.

guns are literally the only weapon that suffer a penalty for low rolls.

roll a 1 on a bow attack, your bowstring doesn't snap

roll a 1 on a crossbow attack, the lever doesn't jam

roll a 1 on a sword swing, the sword doesn't crack

but roll a 1 on a gun and it suddenly explodes.

fricken BS.

remove the damn misfire chance.

But remember that neither bows, nor crossbows, nor swords nor any weapon targets touch AC. Also revolvers as advanced firearms neither explode nor target touch ACs in the first range increment (they do target touch AC at the 5 range increments).

Sure they maybe could have done some of the gun weilding classes a little better but still i think that it's ok, the gunslinger is quite well made so if anyone wants to play a gun weilding class he can play a gunslinger.

Also remember that they gave us rules for guns to be more common, so if you, in your game, want the guns to be better just assume the guns everywhere and nearly everyone gets cheap guns.

Liberty's Edge

Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

archtypes are the new prestige classes. it's the exact same bloat all over. i see that Cirno has noticed it as well.

i beleive that instead of making special archtypes that give free guns off the bat, they should have just made the guns a lot cheaper. i mean 1st level pocket change cheap. i beleive that removing the misfire chance and making the revolver (an advanced firearm,) the default pistol could have gone a long way.

guns are literally the only weapon that suffer a penalty for low rolls.

roll a 1 on a bow attack, your bowstring doesn't snap

roll a 1 on a crossbow attack, the lever doesn't jam

roll a 1 on a sword swing, the sword doesn't crack

but roll a 1 on a gun and it suddenly explodes.

fricken BS.

remove the damn misfire chance.

Depends what game you are playing. In pretty much every game I play:

roll a 1 and bow string likely snaps
roll a 1 and crossbow likely jams
roll a 1 and overstep giving mob AoO or loose grip and hurl your sword accross the room, or trip or if real unlucky during the intensity of the fight you swallow your own tongue and begin choking
Obviously the severity of the failure depends on % roll.

But I am aware all the above are optional rules we choose to use, it seems BS that the Gun is the one weapon where critical failure rules are suddenly forcefull applied.


UltimaGabe wrote:
voska66 wrote:
The regular Paladin gets to smite 1 zombie and the smite does double damage the first attack only and last until the zombie is dead.
A Paladin who uses Smite on an enemy that can be killed in one shot is a stupid Paladin. (And likely a dead Paladin.)

True, just illustrates the point even better. The regular Paladin wouldn't use Smite in this situation but he Holy Gun can.

In my games I've seen Paladins go long stretches with out using smite because they kept saving it for single tougher encounters. Finding this quite a bit in my King Maker game with the exploration. Seems the evil bad guys are all in groups of smaller CR creatures till the BBEG of the book though some there exceptions to this.

Now remember I'm not saying Smiting Shot is great or better than Smite Evil but it's has its uses.


Cause's fun?

Don't tell me that you guys wanted archetypes to be BETTER than Vanilla classes? Instead than roughly the same? Because that's kinda against the point of the archetypes.


Pixel Cube wrote:

Cause's fun?

Don't tell me that you guys wanted archetypes to be BETTER than Vanilla classes? Instead than roughly the same? Because that's kinda against the point of the archetypes.

No, we wanted them to be roughly the same, not dramatically worse.


Asteldian Caliskan wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

archtypes are the new prestige classes. it's the exact same bloat all over. i see that Cirno has noticed it as well.

i beleive that instead of making special archtypes that give free guns off the bat, they should have just made the guns a lot cheaper. i mean 1st level pocket change cheap. i beleive that removing the misfire chance and making the revolver (an advanced firearm,) the default pistol could have gone a long way.

guns are literally the only weapon that suffer a penalty for low rolls.

roll a 1 on a bow attack, your bowstring doesn't snap

roll a 1 on a crossbow attack, the lever doesn't jam

roll a 1 on a sword swing, the sword doesn't crack

but roll a 1 on a gun and it suddenly explodes.

fricken BS.

remove the damn misfire chance.

Depends what game you are playing. In pretty much every game I play:

roll a 1 and bow string likely snaps
roll a 1 and crossbow likely jams
roll a 1 and overstep giving mob AoO or loose grip and hurl your sword accross the room, or trip or if real unlucky during the intensity of the fight you swallow your own tongue and begin choking
Obviously the severity of the failure depends on % roll.

But I am aware all the above are optional rules we choose to use, it seems BS that the Gun is the one weapon where critical failure rules are suddenly forcefull applied.

Those aren't optional rules, they are house rules.


Fozbek wrote:
Pixel Cube wrote:

Cause's fun?

Don't tell me that you guys wanted archetypes to be BETTER than Vanilla classes? Instead than roughly the same? Because that's kinda against the point of the archetypes.

No, we wanted them to be roughly the same, not dramatically worse.

I don't think that it's dramatically worse, just worse.


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Fozbek wrote:


No, we wanted them to be roughly the same, not dramatically worse.

Worse from which point of view? The one that this archetype lets you have guns at first level? The one that makes you play a Sacred Sheriff, the character you always wanted? The one that there is really no point in discussing maths in a game about fantasy adventurers?

Now, before the endless balancebalancebalance mantra ensues, I would like to point out that while maybe many players cannot comprehend why would you choose something that is mechanically worse that the core, and would rather have a game where everything is obsessively balanced, many players actually can understand why you would pick something flavourful over something "balanced", and that's because they have fun with it.

I'm just glad Paizo is not catering only to the first group.


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Pixel Cube wrote:
Fozbek wrote:


No, we wanted them to be roughly the same, not dramatically worse.

Worse from which point of view? The one that this archetype lets you have guns at first level? The one that makes you play a Sacred Sheriff, the character you always wanted? The one that there is really no point in discussing maths in a game about fantasy adventurers?

Now, before the endless balancebalancebalance mantra ensues, I would like to point out that while maybe many players cannot comprehend why would you choose something that is mechanically worse that the core, and would rather have a game where everything is obsessively balanced, many players actually can understand why you would pick something flavourful over something "balanced", and that's because they have fun with it.

I'm just glad Paizo is not catering only to the first group.

You do realize you can play a Sacred Sheriff with a Core Paladin, right? Every Paladin ability works with guns by default. There's absolutely zero reason you can't have exactly the same flavor of character with a normal Paladin. There's no need to nerf yourself into oblivion for the sake of flavor.

As I've already said, the only advantage Holy Gun has over normal Paladins is that you can start with a gun at level 1 instead of waiting until level 2. That's it. That's the sum total of the advantages.

You can whine about "obsessive balancers" all you like, but your entire post is a false dichotomy. You're saying that it's impossible (or undesirable, which is even worse) to have archetypes that are both mechanically useful and flavorful. That's bull****. There's no reason we should have to sacrifice usefulness for flavor. Mechanically weaker classes are not automagically better for roleplaying.


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Fozbek wrote:
You're saying that it's impossible (or undesirable, which is even worse) to have archetypes that are both mechanically useful and flavorful.

Where did I ever said that. What is this, 4chan, were we like to put into each other's mouth words that were never said?

Yes, I do realize that you can have the same flavour with the regular class. To this, I reply: then what is the bloody point of the thread. You want a Sacred Sheriff without "gimping" yourself? Use the regular class. You want a gun at level 1? Use the archetype. You want to do something else entirely? Suit yourself, it's your game.

Complaying if an archetype is not as powerful "as it should have been" it's, in my opinion, a made up issue, as it is every argument about overpowered/underpowered options/classes/whathaveyou. It presumes that somehow you have played everything ever and have an extensive knowledge about how everything is going to go during a game, which is frankly impossible (90% of these threads are made by someone that HASN'T played the class/option in question, but he is somehow magically capable to know if it's "umbalanced" by just looking at the numbers). And it ultimately boils down to "my character kicks your character's ass".


Fozbek wrote:
You do realize you can play a Sacred Sheriff with a Core Paladin, right?

No, you can't.

You can roleplay something only if the rules say so. Thinking outside the box is not permitted. eg before UC, you couldn't roleplay a samurai. The rule didn't allow this. You were able to roleplay a fighter, a paladin or a cavalier, but certainly not a fighter pretending he's samurai. With the UC, you can.

Therefore, without the archetype, you're not allowed to play a sacred sheriff. You can play a standard paladin with a gun, but the rules don't allow you to pretend he's a sacred sheriff.


Excuse me, probably this is a typo, but... does the Holy Gun gain a grit-requiring deed at 2nd level, and grit points at 11th?


Morieth wrote:
Excuse me, probably this is a typo, but... does the Holy Gun gain a grit-requiring deed at 2nd level, and grit points at 11th?

You really want to complain about something? Now, that's an actual problem that deserves discussion. What the hell Paizo, some double checking would have been nice.


My bad, the archetype gives you the Amateur Gunslinger feat -which in turn grants you, ehm... one grit at the start of each day, +1 grit for each crit and +1 for each killing blow, to a maximum of your Wis modifier.

Uhm, I'm not familiar with these rules, but this Holy Gun seems more focused on slaying mobs than facing dragons.


Pixel Cube wrote:
Now, that's an actual problem that deserves discussion.

Now you're complaining that an archetype is not as powerful "as it should have been".

Why should the archetype be able to use his deed? It's all about the flavor of playing a sacred sheriff with a gun at first level.


Morieth wrote:
Uhm, I'm not familiar with these rules, but this Holy Gun seems more focused on slaying mobs than facing dragons.

As for pretty much every gunslinger. You don't do loads of damage, but you can shoot fast.


GâtFromKI wrote:


Now you're complaining that an archetype is not as powerful "as it should have been".

Except I'm not, I'm complaining about Paizo not checking if the class can use abilities up until level 11 when he's supposed to get them at level 2 according to the book, so I'm complaining about EDITING (an unjustified complain, as Morieth pointed out in his second post), and that you are basically trying to troll me.


Pixel Cube wrote:
Morieth wrote:
Uhm, I'm not familiar with these rules, but this Holy Gun seems more focused on slaying mobs than facing dragons.
As for pretty much every gunslinger. You don't do loads of damage, but you can shoot fast.

Yes, but this is a Paladin archetype: it shifts the focus of the class -a lot. It's quite different from being the "tank" or killing linnorms in 2 round.

Now that I know it, it no longer seems that bad: smite an evil target as a ranged touch attack (standard action) every round, as long as you crit or fell enemies with a single blow. It could work.


Morieth wrote:
Yes, but this is a Paladin archetype: it shifts the focus of the class -a lot. It's quite different from being the "tank" or killing linnorms in 2 round.

That's why I like it.


Pixel Cube wrote:
Morieth wrote:
Yes, but this is a Paladin archetype: it shifts the focus of the class -a lot. It's quite different from being the "tank" or killing linnorms in 2 round.
That's why I like it.

Nothing against it on my part, but on such situations a little disclaimer could've been useful: an experienced player/GM can understand this by reading the rules and making a few "mental experiments", while someone more interested in flavour or RP might take it for the gun-factor and then discover it to actually play more like a different class.


Morieth wrote:


Nothing against it on my part, but on such situations a little disclaimer could've been useful: an experienced player/GM can understand this by reading the rules and making a few "mental experiments", while someone more interested in flavour or RP might take it for the gun-factor and then discover it to actually play more like a different class.

What sort of disclaimer? They are already archetypes, most of them are chosen because you want something slightly different from vanilla classes.


Morieth wrote:
Pixel Cube wrote:
Morieth wrote:
Yes, but this is a Paladin archetype: it shifts the focus of the class -a lot. It's quite different from being the "tank" or killing linnorms in 2 round.
That's why I like it.
Nothing against it on my part, but on such situations a little disclaimer could've been useful: an experienced player/GM can understand this by reading the rules and making a few "mental experiments", while someone more interested in flavour or RP might take it for the gun-factor and then discover it to actually play more like a different class.

In my experience, most of those who are more interested in flavor or RP aren't looking to be the same old thing. If they want that they'll usually play the original class.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Pixel Cube...sorta


Pixel Cube wrote:
Fozbek wrote:
You're saying that it's impossible (or undesirable, which is even worse) to have archetypes that are both mechanically useful and flavorful.
Where did I ever said that.

When you said it was perfectly fine for Paizo to produce material that is worthless from a mechanical sense because it was flavorful (nevermind that the flavor isn't anything that couldn't be done with the default class).

Quote:
What is this, 4chan, were we like to put into each other's mouth words that were never said?

I dunno, I was just following your lead. Calling people obsessive about balance because we point out that an archetype both, A) is significantly weaker and without adequate scaling with level and B) doesn't open any new roleplaying avenues, is just a bit rude and condescending.

Quote:
Yes, I do realize that you can have the same flavour with the regular class. To this, I reply: then what is the bloody point of the thread.

Apparently, the point of this thread is for you to say we're having badwrongfun for wanting our archetypes to be both useful and flavorful. Sorry for treading on your sacred ground.


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Fozbek wrote:
Apparently, the point of this thread is for you to say we're having badwrongfun for wanting our archetypes to be both useful and flavorful. Sorry for treading on your sacred ground.

So making a thread about something over the internet is perfectly fine, just as long you don't expect people to actually comment giving their opinions. Those party poopers.


Pixel Cube wrote:
Morieth wrote:


Nothing against it on my part, but on such situations a little disclaimer could've been useful: an experienced player/GM can understand this by reading the rules and making a few "mental experiments", while someone more interested in flavour or RP might take it for the gun-factor and then discover it to actually play more like a different class.
What sort of disclaimer? They are already archetypes, most of them are chosen because you want something slightly different from vanilla classes.

"Slighlty" is not exactly the degree of difference between making smite work as a single attack, performed as a standard action, that can (theoretically) be used ad infinitum & making smite work as a swift action, x times/day, that adds damage to evey attack you made against a single enemy (until such enemy is dead).

One encourages the use of full-attack actions, the other leaves you with a move action; one has more damage output, the other offers a different degree of mobility. Given the way grit is replenished, the gun-paladin must also smite smartly, against opponent that he can kill in a single blow, while the standard paladin is better served by declaring his smite as soon as possible -and probably against big, evil monsters.

While the overall "power level" might be the same, they really don't play the same (or at least, they don't seem to me); I'm not very familiar with archetypes, so I could be totally wrong, but this is on a whole different level than, say, the gun wizard.


Buz Halfboot wrote:
you are basically trying to troll me.

No.

If I didn't respond this to you, someone else would have. That's how those boards work: whatever you say, someone will respond "there's no problem, because it's all about flavor".

eg: a ranger with the infiltrator archetype gains hide in plain sight at level 17, but he can't use it. It's not a problem, since having HIPS is all about flavor.

eg: having a bunch of useless archetypes isn't a easy way to fill pages, "it's all about flavor".


Buz Halfboot wrote:
and that you are basically trying to troll me.

Why in the world did you respond then!? 0.o


Morieth wrote:

"Slighlty" is not exactly the degree of difference between making smite work as a single attack, performed as a standard action, that can (theoretically) be used ad infinitum & making smite work as a swift action, x times/day, that adds damage to evey attack you made against a single enemy (until such enemy is dead).

One encourages the use of full-attack actions, the other leaves you with a move action; one has more damage output, the other offers a different degree of mobility. Given the way grit is replenished, the gun-paladin must also smite smartly, against opponent that he can kill in a single blow, while the standard paladin is better served by declaring his smite as soon as possible -and probably against big, evil monsters.

While the overall "power level" might be the same, they really don't play the same (or at least, they don't seem to me); I'm not very familiar with archetypes, so I could be totally wrong, but this is on a whole different level than, say, the gun wizard.

Well, figuring out the right tactics to use should be the player's job. Let him come up with how to play his own class. I still don't see the need of putting a disclaimer "THIS ARCHETYPE PLAYS DIFFERENTLY", followed by a short "how to" guide. Tips and strategies have their own places, namely, the Advice section of this very board.

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