Holy Gun paladin archtype from Ultimate Combat...why!?


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Obsidian wrote:
As I was reading through this post I had a genius Idea that I want to pitch to my DM but y'all tell me if its too overpowered.

It depends on your balance point.

  • If your balance point is a monk with vow of poverty, then your idea is way overpowered.
  • If your balance point is a witch with slumber or ice tomb, then your idea is way underpowered.
  • If your balance point is something in-between, then your idea is something in-between overpowered and underpowered.


  • leo1925 wrote:
    Archlich and baelnorn are from forgotten realms right?

    Yep. They're most common in that, however they also make their appearance in generic D&D occasionally, and are also found in the Libris Mortis, which was pretty much the big book of lots of goofy undead. I have Libris Mortis and the worst thing about the entire book is it adds more undead than I could ever or want to ever use, and yet it has no information regarding their creation or anything of the sort. In the entire book, the only creature in the book that is explained how it is created or how to make one is actually a golem made out of grave dirt. Lame.


    I rewrote the Holy Gun... Here is my version, and I would like to see what you all think of it.

    Holy Guns give up the following paladin abilities in favor of the abilities described below; Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Smite Evil, Channel Positive Energy, Aura of Justice, and Holy Champion.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency

    Holy guns are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, firearms, and light armor.

    Have Gun

    At 1st level, the holy gun gains a firearm of her choice;
    Early Firearms Setting: Blunderbuss, Musket, or Pistol
    Advanced Firearms Setting: Shotgun, Rifle, Pistol, or Revolver

    Her starting weapon is battered, and only she knows how to use it properly. All other creatures treat her gun as if it had the broken condition. If the weapon already has the broken condition, it does not work at all for anyone else trying to use it. This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it’s worth 4d10 gp when sold). The holy gun also gains Gunsmithing as a bonus feat.

    Holy Grit (Ex)

    At the start of each day, a holy gun gains a number of grit points equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). Her grit goes up or down throughout the day, but cannot go higher than her Charisma modifier or 1. This changes to 2 at 4th level, 3 at 7th level, 4 at 10th level, and a limit only equal to her Charisma Modifier at 11th level, though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. A holy gun spends grit to accomplish deeds (see below), and regains grit in the following ways.
    Critical Hit with a Firearm: Each time the holy gun confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the holy gun’s character level does not restore grit.
    Killing Blow with a Firearm: When the holy gun reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the holy gun’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any grit.

    Divine Deed: Smiting Shot (Su)

    At 1st level a holy gun can spend 1 grit point to make a smiting shot with a firearm attack as a standard action. If the target is evil, the holy gun adds her Charisma bonus and her paladin level to the damage of the firearm attack. If the target of the smiting shot is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage increases to the Charisma modifier plus 2 points of damage per level the paladin possess. Regardless of the target, smiting shot automatically bypasses any DR the creature might have. All smite evil feats will effect smiting shot the same, except for extra smite evil which cannot be taken.

    Lay On Hands (Su)

    Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/3 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.

    Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.

    Deeds

    At 4th level a holy gun gains the use of a single gunslinger deed that a level 1 gunslinger can use. At 11th level and every 3 levels after a holy gun can select any deed that a gunslinger of her paladin level -4 could use.

    Divine Bond: Firearm (Sp)

    Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. A holy gun can form a divine bond with her starting weapon or a weapon of the same type if that weapon was lost. She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.
    Starting at level 8 this bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a celestial spirit for 1 minute per paladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed light as a torch. At 8th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 8th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: axiomatic, brilliant energy, distance, flaming, flaming burst, holy, keen, merciful, reliable, seeking, and speed. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost (see Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities). These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The celestial spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the paladin but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the paladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. A paladin can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.
    If a weapon bonded with a celestial spirit is destroyed, the paladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until she gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

    Holy Slinger (Ex)

    At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smiting shot and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smiting shot immediately ends. In addition, whenever she uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.

    Liberty's Edge

    RW,

    First, when you have something you want to say, instead of dragging up a 3 year old topic, start a new thread. Especially if you're only tangentially on topic to the thread you're necroing up.

    Second, this thread is in Paizo's products, your re-write of the class should be posted in the homebrew section.


    Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

    One of the players in my friend's Wrath of the Righteous campaign is playing a slightly modified Holy Gun. The changes were:

    -Gives up spellcasting.
    -Gets Gun Training (as a Gunslinger) at level 5.
    -Smiting Shot does give an accuracy bonus, doesn't add Charisma to damage, and is activated as part of an attack roll instead of as a standard action.
    -Grit pool equal to Charisma modifier at level 1; level 11 ability just gives extra deeds.

    With these changes, she is actually a beast in this campaign. Since she dual wields pistols, she can burn 2-3 smites in a single attack routine, getting double smite damage each time. Plus the ability to recover her grit pool in the usual ways means she often gets MORE smite attacks in a given day than a typical Paladin could expect to get, even having to burn a grit point each time.

    EDIT: Ah, sorry, didn't realize I was contributing to a necro... ~hangs head in shame~


    Many archetypes are suboptimal, and if your PF game consists of bog standard expectations regarding the APs or your adventures then they will play substandard. However, if you're playing an Old West genre setting and you still want to be a paladin, then Holy Gun is your only real option. Of course in such a game the standard expectations aren't there and it all works out with everyone having fun. Really, unless it were an Old West genre game, gunslingers and their ilk usually don't fit in my standard game, so I need to play a gun specific setting to use. And in such a setting everyone has fun doing just that.


    To everyone that replied,

    My bad on drudging up an old post, a friend of mine is getting me into PF for the first time. I was previously a hc dnd person... This is where google lead me when I was looking for better optimized versions of this template... Honestly I just posted here without looking at the dates.

    My apologies for being an accidental necro :(

    Contributor

    I did a damage analysis between a Holy Gun 19 / Mysterious Stranger 1 and a Paladin 20 with a gun in my blog, Everyman Gaming.

    Check out my findings here.

    Liberty's Edge

    Alexander Augunas wrote:

    I did a damage analysis between a Holy Gun 19 / Mysterious Stranger 1 and a Paladin 20 with a gun in my blog, Everyman Gaming.

    Check out my findings here.

    If you really wanted to examine the holy gun archetype you should have compared the archetype either on its own or in the same build, either:

    Holy gun 19 / Stranger 1
    vs.
    Paladin 19 / Stranger 1

    Or

    Holy Gun 20
    vs.
    Paladin 20

    Both of those will show that holy gun is even worse than what your comparison showed.

    Also, a typical paladin's smite persists from one turn to the other, it doesn't end at the end of turn as you seem to imply when you claim that a paladin will only get one hit from his smite levels 1 - 5. You also didn't charge the paladin the feat cost to become proficient with a gun (or, if the paladin is archer, take the whole touch AC into account.)

    Contributor

    @Shadowcat

    I noticed that while you critiqued the heck out of my build, you really didn't touch upon my verdict about the Holy Gun: the standard paladin is a boss killer, the Holy Gun is a moon killer. You can very easily one-shot weaker opponents with one smithing shot as a Holy Gun, which restores the grit point used to activate Smiting Shot.

    The Exchange

    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Alexander Augunas wrote:

    @Shadowcat

    I noticed that while you critiqued the heck out of my build, you really didn't touch upon my verdict about the Holy Gun: the standard paladin is a boss killer, the Holy Gun is a moon killer. You can very easily one-shot weaker opponents with one smithing shot as a Holy Gun, which restores the grit point used to activate Smiting Shot.

    exactly.

    Contributor

    GeneticDrift wrote:
    Alexander Augunas wrote:

    @Shadowcat

    I noticed that while you critiqued the heck out of my build, you really didn't touch upon my verdict about the Holy Gun: the standard paladin is a boss killer, the Holy Gun is a moon killer. You can very easily one-shot weaker opponents with one smithing shot as a Holy Gun, which restores the grit point used to activate Smiting Shot.

    exactly.

    That should read, "the Holy Gun is a mook killer".

    I can't get'em right every time, it seems. : /


    Everyone can kill mooks, that's why they're called mooks. Casters can remove them from the premises, en masse, in the first round or two of combat. The one thing martial characters truly excel at is applying direct damage to single targets, and the default Paladin (or a Mysterious Stranger 1 / Paladin X) is better at it than the Holy Gun.

    Contributor

    Athaleon wrote:
    Everyone can kill mooks, that's why they're called mooks. Casters can remove them from the premises, en masse, in the first round or two of combat. The one thing martial characters truly excel at is applying direct damage to single targets, and the default Paladin (or a Mysterious Stranger 1 / Paladin X) is better at it than the Holy Gun.

    Yes, but a standard paladin cannot smite mooks, therefore she cannot reasonably unleash her full damage potential against them. As a result, the standard paladin really cannot kill mooks in a turn or two.

    On the other hand, the Holy Gun essentially loses no uses of smite for smiting weaker opponents so long as she receives the killing blow against them (or critically hits). Aside from the Mysterious Stranger's smiting shot, the Oath of Vengeance is the only other way in the game for a paladin to regain uses of smite evil, which is what makes the Holy Gun special compared to other paladin options.

    Is it the most optimized in terms of single target damage? No, not by a longshot (heh). Does that makes this archetype useless? Again, not by a longshot. Similar to how taking the antipaladin alternate class changes your role expectations for the paladin, the holy gun archetype should be changing your role expectations as well.

    After all, if the wizard can rely on your endless ability to destroy the mooks, he can prepare other spells for you. Like fly. Or black tentacles. ("Hold'em down while I shoot'em up!")

    Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

    I'm glad I jumped into this thread, I really had actually wondered how the Holy Gun could be any good at all and this kind of helped.

    So thanks for that AA and everyone else! I now get the premise behind what I thought was a really bad archetype, and is actually a very situational one.

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