Holy Gun paladin archtype from Ultimate Combat...why!?


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Pixel Cube wrote:
Fozbek wrote:
Apparently, the point of this thread is for you to say we're having badwrongfun for wanting our archetypes to be both useful and flavorful. Sorry for treading on your sacred ground.
So making a thread about something over the internet is perfectly fine, just as long you don't expect people to actually comment giving their opinions. Those party poopers.

Giving your opinion is fine. Calling us obsessive, saying the thread is pointless, claiming that we're inventing issues, implying that we're playing the game wrong for wanting new options to be at the same power level as old options, that's all called "being a jerk".


The Holy Gun seems much more a sniper then a rough and tumble gunman.


Azten wrote:
Why in the world did you respond then!? 0.o

Because sometimes you just have to.


Pixel Cube wrote:
Well, figuring out the right tactics to use should be the player's job. Let him come up with how to play his own class. I still don't see the need of putting a disclaimer "THIS ARCHETYPE PLAYS DIFFERENTLY", followed by a short "how to" guide. Tips and strategies have their own places, namely, the Advice section of this very board.

It also helps to avoid those strange terms like "underpowered".

In relation to some player's expectations? Yes.
In relation to its intent as a sniper? Perhaps.


Fozbek wrote:
Giving your opinion is fine. Calling us obsessive, saying the thread is pointless, claiming that we're inventing issues, implying that we're playing the game wrong for wanting new options to be at the same power level as old options, that's all called "being a jerk".

Spoiler because I can't figure out how to send PMs (if that's even possible).

For Fozbek eyes only:
I don't understand why are you taking this so personally. I hold no grudges against you or the OP. I just wanted to give my opinions on a (to me at least) false issue. The "obsessive" was referred to the system rather than the players (I consider an obsessively balanced game a game that puts balance first, fun later. Maybe it wasn't the right word to use, but english is not my first language, I try to do my best but cut me some slack here). Nobody said that you are playing a game wrong for wanting options that have exactly the same power: I said that I'm glad Paizo isn't focused on that only, and flavor-for-the-sake-of-flavor options are included too. And "I will call you a jerk in a indirect way" is just as bad as the regular namecalling. This discussion is over to me, I hope I made myself more clear now.

Silver Crusade

Now After looking over the Holy Gun is the only paladin type to possibly get free Smites all day long and synergies well with quite a few archetypes and combos. One being Taking Gunslinger for 11 levels and gaining Signature Deed to apply to with Smiting Shot...or Focused aim..And doing this EVERY ROUND ... I guess you could extrapolate the Holy Grit ability and simply take signature Deed At 15th but thats splitting hairs... I mean off the top of my head I could create A Holy Gun/ Hospitalier/ Warrior of Light/ Divine Defender/ Mysterious Stranger with Variant Channeling if I wanted to who'd do fine at support and Ranged damage, every round. And With that build you would need Str, Just Cha and Dex and you'll be fine..Your adding Cha to damage Twice and paladin Level of 9 to Damage twice if its Evil Undead, Dragon or Outsider, and this all quadruples on a crit soo..I think it works fine; Then again I like mental exercises


You only get smites all day long if you either crit or kill on every single attack. That is not going to happen past level 1 or 2. You're also giving up your ability to make multiple attacks in a round if you do it.

Also, you cannot take Holy Gun and Divine Defender, because they both replace/alter Divine Bond, and you cannot take both Holy Gun and Hospitaler, because they both replace/alter Smite Evil.

Silver Crusade

Did you Miss the Signature Deed Part...Maybe; and from what I see Divine Defender gives you the Option of using armor not requiring you to do so...it doesn't even say it replaces or changes Divine Bond; Hospitaler just moves the times you gain additional Smite evil..it is still in the same slot to be replaced, so It should legally work..either way Holy Gun + Mysterious Stranger = Cha to damage ouch..

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

thats a pretty good point about regaining your grit once you crit or kill a foe. and signature deed certainly makes it nicer. Even with that, i'd probably rather have my once a day smite for when i'm going up against a bid bad with a high (touch) AC or when i don't want to chance rolling a lot of 2's and 3's.

raise your hand if you'd rather have the deed replace the first d6 of lay on hands, or reduce some other ability, and still be able to do regular smite?

guess it needs to be played out in home games and at different levels to really throw stones at it.

Silver Crusade

GâtFromKI wrote:
Fozbek wrote:
You do realize you can play a Sacred Sheriff with a Core Paladin, right?

No, you can't.

You can roleplay something only if the rules say so. Thinking outside the box is not permitted. eg before UC, you couldn't roleplay a samurai. The rule didn't allow this. You were able to roleplay a fighter, a paladin or a cavalier, but certainly not a fighter pretending he's samurai. With the UC, you can.

Therefore, without the archetype, you're not allowed to play a sacred sheriff. You can play a standard paladin with a gun, but the rules don't allow you to pretend he's a sacred sheriff.

This is so stupid, I actually hope you were ironical while writing this.


Jonathon Vining wrote:
Because it lets you be a GUN PALADIN.

I formally suggest the official portmanteau for this term is: Gungadin.

Paizo Employee Sales Associate

Evil Lincoln wrote:
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Because it lets you be a GUN PALADIN.
I formally suggest the official portmanteau for this term is: Gungadin.

POWladin

Silver Crusade

Cosmo wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Because it lets you be a GUN PALADIN.
I formally suggest the official portmanteau for this term is: Gungadin.
POWladin

Snipeadin

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Because it lets you be a GUN PALADIN.
I formally suggest the official portmanteau for this term is: Gungadin.

The term "Gungadin" triggered in my brain a mental image of Jar-Jar-Binks in shining silver full plate holding two handguns, and I'm not sure if I can recover from that.


Maxximilius wrote:
This is so stupid, I actually hope you were ironical while writing this.

I am always serious.

How else could you justify archetypes which make you worse at being the archetype than the base class?

Silver Crusade

I have a player currently using a paladin with the Holy Gun archetype (his concept is that the paladin was a gunmarshal from Alkenstar that took part in the recent Mendevian Crusade but now works with others to right wrongs across the land). He too voiced the same concerns about losing his regular Smite Evil for the Smiting Shoot deed.

That was until he tried it.

You see with all the ruckus going on about the deed, you're leaving out a very important detail: getting your Charisma modifier to the damage rather than to the attack roll (and AC for that matter, but that's a whole separate issue). Doesn't seem like much, does it? Well, let's see. Using my player's character - 13th level with an 18 Charisma, that's an extra 17 points of damage against evil opponents (compared to just 13 points of damage otherwise). Against outsiders with the evil subtype, evil dragons, and undead, it becomes 30 points of damage (as opposed to 26). And that's with each Smiting Shot taken (as written in the description, the deed has no first attack clause the way Smite Evil does).

Now he loves it.


Gorbacz wrote:
The term "Gungadin" triggered in my brain a mental image of Jar-Jar-Binks in shining silver full plate holding two handguns, and I'm not sure if I can recover from that.

Its so.. so cool though.


Blayde MacRonan wrote:

I have a player currently using a paladin with the Holy Gun archetype (his concept is that the paladin was a gunmarshal from Alkenstar that took part in the recent Mendevian Crusade but now works with others to right wrongs across the land). He too voiced the same concerns about losing his regular Smite Evil for the Smiting Shoot deed.

That was until he tried it.

You see with all the ruckus going on about the deed, you're leaving out a very important detail: getting your Charisma modifier to the damage rather than to the attack roll (and AC for that matter, but that's a whole separate issue). Doesn't seem like much, does it? Well, let's see. Using my player's character - 13th level with an 18 Charisma, that's an extra 17 points of damage against evil opponents (compared to just 13 points of damage otherwise). Against outsiders with the evil subtype, evil dragons, and undead, it becomes 30 points of damage (as opposed to 26). And that's with each Smiting Shot taken (as written in the description, the deed has no first attack clause the way Smite Evil does).

Now he loves it.

4 points of damage 4 times a day is better than being able to fire three times in a single round with smite?

Silver Crusade

For my player...it works. I'm guessing you find that so hard to believe, but its true.

But why is he just limited to 4 times a day? Remember, if he crits with his gun or deals the killing blow, he gains back grit which allows for more than just 4 uses a day. The deed works and interacts with grit the same as any gunslinger's does.

Sure, he doesn't crit all that often, but his character is usually the one getting the killing shot in combat (the party consists of a ranger [spell-less, Kobold Quarterly], a wizard, a druid [also noncasting, but, thanks again to Kobold Quarterly, is more wildshape oriented], an alchemist, a bard, and a cleric in addition to the paladin), so he does just fine.


Unless he's taken Improved Critical, he's more likely to misfire than to crit, and with 7 (!!!!!) party members, he shouldn't be getting a very high percentage of killing blows.

Even saying he does get half the killing blows, though, the normal Paladin still will do more damage because he's not limited to a single attack when he smites.

Silver Crusade

Sure it is, it called teamwork and clever usage of abilities. The player probably targets weakened creatures and since they are touch probably kills them gaining Grit back, or when he's low, does a full attack like any other Pally would against one or multiple targets, possibly dropping or critting them and thus gaiining Grit back. The difference in the two are choice... A regular pally has to worry about targeting the strongest looking enemy and focusing damage on them; They Hopefully being evil. A Holy Gun is pretty much smiting every time he uses that standard action and if optimized could have a 22-24 cha..meaning he'd be smiting much more than a regular Pally. When the Pally runs out of Smites his damage drops and he has to wait till next day, When a Holy Gun loses grit, he kills something or crits and gets it back

BTW Reliable Property can pretty much get rid of misfire along with Quick Clear and of course if they Multiclass


I am very skeptical that a Holy Gun is "smiting every time he uses a standard action". There's simply no way that that's sustainable in any realistic scenario. Further, Holy Guns are actually less able to optimize towards Charisma than a standard Paladin, because they need Wisdom (to store Grit) and standard Paladins do not.

In my experience, in the 3.5 and Pathfinder games that I've run, killing blows are spread out fairly evenly across every party member, even the ones that are optimized for combat and the ones that aren't. Further, delaying killing an enemy (so that the Holy Gun can finish it off to regain Grit so he doesn't suck) is almost always a bad idea, because an enemy with 1 hit point has exactly as much offensive power as the same enemy with 100% health. Not to mention it breaks the flavor of the class horribly.


Fozbek wrote:

I am very skeptical that a Holy Gun is "smiting every time he uses a standard action". There's simply no way that that's sustainable in any realistic scenario. Further, Holy Guns are actually less able to optimize towards Charisma than a standard Paladin, because they need Wisdom (to store Grit) and standard Paladins do not.

In my experience, in the 3.5 and Pathfinder games that I've run, killing blows are spread out fairly evenly across every party member, even the ones that are optimized for combat and the ones that aren't. Further, delaying killing an enemy (so that the Holy Gun can finish it off to regain Grit so he doesn't suck) is almost always a bad idea, because an enemy with 1 hit point has exactly as much offensive power as the same enemy with 100% health. Not to mention it breaks the flavor of the class horribly.

Most people agree that taking your first level as mysterious stranger and then go for holy gun. Maybe that's why they don't find so much of a problem.


Fozbek wrote:
Further, delaying killing an enemy (so that the Holy Gun can finish it off to regain Grit so he doesn't suck) is almost always a bad idea, because an enemy with 1 hit point has exactly as much offensive power as the same enemy with 100% health. Not to mention it breaks the flavor of the class horribly.

... not to mention it's not even possible to delay killing. There's no way to know the HP of an enemy.


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I'm going to make the paladin archtype "Holy Baker" that loses literally all of his paladin abilities but gains "Skill Focus: Professor: Baker" twice.

This will then become the best roleplaying archtype ever.


ProfessorCirno wrote:

I'm going to make the paladin archtype "Holy Baker" that loses literally all of his paladin abilities but gains "Skill Focus: Professor: Baker" twice.

This will then become the best roleplaying archtype ever.

I actually have a character that would take this.

And a different character, who actually used profession(midwife) last session to a concrete benefit.

Is that enough "roleplayer" cred?


ProfessorCirno wrote:

I'm going to make the paladin archtype "Holy Baker" that loses literally all of his paladin abilities but gains "Skill Focus: Professor: Baker" twice.

This will then become the best roleplaying archtype ever.

His pastry must be godly....Bet he kills enemies by giving them super delicious food that turns them good from unimaginable flavors put in to the treats! (XD)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ProfessorCirno wrote:

I'm going to make the paladin archtype "Holy Baker" that loses literally all of his paladin abilities but gains "Skill Focus: Professor: Baker" twice.

This will then become the best roleplaying archtype ever.

I'd buy a PDF of that.

Liberty's Edge

Holy Gun definitely doesn't convince me. The standard action is the real killer. By lvl 6 you can smite for double damage against outsiders and undead EVERY shot.....but the Paladin can attack twice in around, then at higher lvl or with haste 3 times. Smite 3 x for +12 or once for +24...

Add the fact that it is only once per grit point and it is looking sketchy. Sure, you can gain them by killing or critting, but even so, at lvl 6 a Paladin with 18 Cha can smite twice a day as normal, but also 3 additional times assuming they are an Oath of Vengeance Paladin. So 5 times a day they could smite the hard part will be finding 5 encounters worth smiting in a day. Hell, go a step further and start taking Extra LoH - each Feat is essentially giving you one extra smite a day.

So yeah, the Holy Gun is a cool concept, but seems flawed, but that may be because I think Guns suck and that the original Gunslinger is underwhelming at least until he gets Dex as damage


Evil Lincoln wrote:

I actually have a character that would take this.

And a different character, who actually used profession(midwife) last session to a concrete benefit.

Is that enough "roleplayer" cred?

You're saying this because Cirno forgot the clause "an archetype should be worse than the base class at being the archetype".

1. The Holy baker lose profession (baker) as a class skill.
2. At level 1, the Holly baker gain a +1 bonus to profession (baker). This bonus increase to +2 at level 10, and +3 at level 20.
3. The Holy baker can't take the skill focus feat nor the master crafter feat. Instead, Holy baker gain access to the following feats:

Quote:

Baker skill

Condition: Holy baker level 1
Effect: the character gain +3 to profession (baker).
Quote:

Improved baker skill

Condition: Holy baker level 5, Baker skill
Effect: the character gain +2 to profession (baker).
Quote:

Greater baker skill

Condition: Holy baker level 10, Baker skill, Improved baker skill
Effect: the character gain +3 to profession (baker).
Quote:

Baker supremacy

Condition: Holy baker level 15, Baker skill, Improved baker skill, Greater baker skill
Effect: the character can craft magical bread.


Too bad Signature dead requires you to be a level 11 gunslinger. That feat could almost make this build.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
I formally suggest the official portmanteau for this term is: Gungadin.

Nice one! You're my new punning idol.

Sadly, I'm not sure anyone else on the thread has heard of Gunga Din. Not a lot of Kipling fans in Paizo-land, I guess.


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GâtFromKI wrote:
I am always serious.

"... and don't call me Shirley."


ProfessorCirno wrote:

I'm going to make the paladin archtype "Holy Baker" that loses literally all of his paladin abilities but gains "Skill Focus: Professor: Baker" twice.

This will then become the best roleplaying archtype ever.

Can he Smite during food fights?


GâtFromKI wrote:
Maxximilius wrote:
This is so stupid, I actually hope you were ironical while writing this.

I am always serious.

How else could you justify archetypes which make you worse at being the archetype than the base class?

Ok, I know I'm asking for all kinds of hate coming my way with this, but maybe not everything needs to be equal? Can't something just be cool?


Ivan Rûski wrote:
Ok, I know I'm asking for all kinds of hate coming my way with this, but maybe not everything needs to be equal? Can't something just be cool?

I don't think you understand. It's not as cool as the base paladin. The base paladin is easily better at using guns than the holy gun, and the holy gun's entire theme is using guns. Can you see what the problem is?


Ivan Rûski wrote:
Ok, I know I'm asking for all kinds of hate coming my way with this, but maybe not everything needs to be equal? Can't something just be cool?

I want things to be cool. What I don't want is to be actively punished for wanting to play cool things. To my mind, personally, well-written rules should not go out of their way to discourage you from playing cool things, by making them as unattractive as possible, and as likely as possible to get you killed.

My favorite example is assigning a feat chain that eventually lets the character wear a black cloak, instead of a blue one.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
I don't think you understand. It's not as cool as the base paladin. The base paladin is easily better at using guns than the holy gun, and the holy gun's entire theme is using guns. Can you see what the problem is?

I really don't see how the base paladin is better at using guns since the base has to spend a feat to be able to use guns in the first place.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

I want things to be cool. What I don't want is to be actively punished for wanting to play cool things. To my mind, personally, well-written rules should not go out of their way to discourage you from playing cool things, by making them as unattractive as possible, and as likely as possible to get you killed.

My favorite example is assigning a feat chain that eventually lets the character wear a black cloak, instead of a blue one.

I also fail to see how they are being actively punished. At first level, they get effectively an additional 2 feats and a 1,000+gp weapon. That seems like one hell of an incentive to play one to me. As is not having to multiclass to play what you want to. Yeah, smiting shot as good as smite evil, but like I said, not everything needs to be equal. I just don't see it as a punishment.


Forgive my ignorance, couldn't you just take extra grit as a feat?

so the main argument seems to be

that holy smite is better than smiting shot?

and that smiting shot is less useful? because it uses wisdom to power the grit pool, and is less effective?

EDIT:And do you ever resolve the whole charisma and wisdom grit points issue do you eventually get to run your grit points off cha instead of wis?
like ninja and monks ki pool? you can the ki pool to run off one or the other.?
can any body clear this up?

maybe lay down a 5 point sum up of the main issue with holy gun

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

I would like to see any proposed in game feat fixes also like extra grit,
or a 1 level dip in gunslinger.


Ivan Rûski wrote:
I also fail to see how they are being actively punished. At first level, they get effectively an additional 2 feats and a 1,000+gp weapon. That seems like one hell of an incentive to play one to me.

If feats scaled with level (and I think they should), I'd be right there with you. But they don't, whereas smite evil most assuredly does -- and especially so because as you get higher in level, you more often encounter the sorts of critters that give you the 2 x level damage bonus. So the archetype provides strong incentive to play it as a first-level character, and then every level it becomes comparatively weaker and weaker, until in a few levels you're bitterly regretting the choice you made and end up asking the GM if you can just ditch your archetype but keep the gun. As our old friend Admiral Akbar would say, "It's a trap!"


Asteldian Caliskan wrote:

Holy Gun definitely doesn't convince me. The standard action is the real killer. By lvl 6 you can smite for double damage against outsiders and undead EVERY shot.....but the Paladin can attack twice in around, then at higher lvl or with haste 3 times. Smite 3 x for +12 or once for +24...

Add the fact that it is only once per grit point and it is looking sketchy. Sure, you can gain them by killing or critting, but even so, at lvl 6 a Paladin with 18 Cha can smite twice a day as normal, but also 3 additional times assuming they are an Oath of Vengeance Paladin. So 5 times a day they could smite the hard part will be finding 5 encounters worth smiting in a day. Hell, go a step further and start taking Extra LoH - each Feat is essentially giving you one extra smite a day.

So yeah, the Holy Gun is a cool concept, but seems flawed, but that may be because I think Guns suck and that the original Gunslinger is underwhelming at least until he gets Dex as damage

In my opinion this is the only the wrong with the Holy Gun. Smiting Shot should not be a Standard Action. I mean this rules out using Vital strike for it as well and not being to full action shoot a smite. I'm house ruling you can apply the smiting shot to any attack action using the gun and for every attack in full attack action you can smite by spending the grit for each attack.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Jonathon Vining wrote:
Because it lets you be a GUN PALADIN.
I formally suggest the official portmanteau for this term is: Gungadin.

Meesa so mad at you for making this Star Wars reference.


Serisan wrote:
Meesa so mad at you for making this Star Wars reference.

Alright, you philistines, let's get something straight.

If George Lucas decides to subconsciously (or consciously) plagiarize Rudyard Kipling when naming a species, let us not forget that his pen also birthed such gems as "Mon-Calamari" and "Ewok" (being "wookie" backwards not really).

Fine. I'm fine with that. But I was not making a Star Wars reference. Man, I'm just so tired of all these Star Wars.


Looks like someone woke up on the Dark Side of the bed this morning... :)


Gunga Din by Rudyard Kipling

Regards,
Ruemere


Link fixed


ruemere wrote:
Gunga Din by Rudyard Kipling

Yeah, I was grumbling about Kipling something like 13 posts ago.


So let me get this straight, I can do gun damage + bonuses + smite bonus x 2 to an enemy (and hopefully drop them and do it again) or I can do gun damage x2 + bonuses x 2 on a regular full attack.

In my experiance bonuses times two would do more damage, sure you could do it when you cant take a full attack (as a ranged combatent) but your less likely to drop someone tk gain grit back.

So this smite is actually gimping my attack?


Apologies for the wrong link. Apparently the phone messed up a little.

Regards,
Ruemere


voska66 wrote:
In my opinion this is the only the wrong with the Holy Gun. Smiting Shot should not be a Standard Action. I mean this rules out using Vital strike for it as well and not being to full action shoot a smite.

This. If using your Full-BAB-Class-Damage-Bonus ability didn't limit you to one attack per round, it'd be a decent archetype. With that limitation, though, it basically forces you to choose between damage that doesn't scale or ignoring your primary damaging class ability. That's just poor design.

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