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couldn't find anything in the books that clarifies the sohei's light armor proficiency in combination with his other abilities, like flurry of blows or the monks level dependant AC bonus and wisdom bonus to AC.
so, how does it work?
does it work together at all? and if not, why give him a light armor proficiency?
A clarification would be nice.
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i believe flurry requires you to be unarmored / not carrying a shield. so you wouldn't be able to flurry.
your unarmed attack damage never increases from d6 anyway.
sohei's are a mush. a mounted monk class without a bonded mount ability, monk training but with armor proficiency, and can flurry with any trained weapon after 6th level.
he loses a lot, and doesn't get much back in return.
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Monastic Mount is pretty good, if you break down what it actually does. For example, it's a bit weird, but technically a Sohei wearing his light armour doesn't get the Monk AC bonus, but his unarmoured mount standing next to him (or being ridden) does get that bonus, via Monastic Mount. AC bonus, high jumping, Ki striking mounts are just cool... Not that you'd usually bother unless you were multi-classing with a Class which gets a decent Mount as a Class feature, of course... or you manage to find yourself a better-than-a-horse mount some other way (Leadership and a special mount for a Cohort, for example).
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i believe flurry requires you to be unarmored / not carrying a shield. so you wouldn't be able to flurry.
your unarmed attack damage never increases from d6 anyway.
sohei's are a mush. a mounted monk class without a bonded mount ability, monk training but with armor proficiency, and can flurry with any trained weapon after 6th level.
he loses a lot, and doesn't get much back in return.
You're wrong. Flurry requires you to be using a monk weapon, and for a Sohei, come level 6 they can flurry with any weapon they pick for weapon training. They can also enhance their weapons with their ki. Also, wearing light armor makes them less MAD, because they no longer need to max out a wisdom score just to have acceptable AC.
It's not the best monk in Ultimate Combat, but it's certainly better than core.
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Sohei's mounts are OK as mounts for the majority of the sweet spot, since they can be fed temp hp and automatically get all of the monk defensive abilities. They won't be effective fighters, but the sohei doesn't give up much for them, either.
The primary problem that un-enhanced mounts face is area effect damage outright killing them even on a save. Improved Evasion and the temp hp pretty much eliminates that. It would be nice if the monk could share his base save bonus, though.
You can fix it by taking one level of cavalier/samurai.
Horse Master (Combat)
You blend horsemanship skills from disparate traditions
into a seamless mounted combat technique.
Prerequisites: Expert trainer class feature (Advanced
Player’s Guide 33), Ride 6 ranks.
Benefit: Use your character level to determine your
effective druid level for determining the powers and
abilities of your mount.
Normal: You use your cavalier level to determine your
effective druid level for determining the powers and
abilities of your mount.
Actually, that also gets you heavy armor proficiency, which is kinda neat.
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Samurai don't get Expert Trainer. But yes, that's actually not a bad option if you want a serious fighting mount on your Sohei. It'll be fine with just the base Cavalier mount plus the Sohei bonuses until level 7.
Whoops, just Cavalier then. Actually, I've been looking specifically at the Emissary archetype. Full foot-speed in medium armor (good for the tight spaces), and trade Tactician for Mounted Combat.
EDIT: Derp, Expert Trainer is 4 levels of Cavalier. It's not as good an option as I thought it was.
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There's always the Boon Companion Feat (Seekers of Secrets page 16) to up your Animal Companion's level by 4 (up to your character level), which would help for a bit if you just took a 1-level dip into a class with an Animal Companion; but that's probably better if you're not aiming for high-level play. Otherwise, I'd just stick to Leadership and a Cohort mount.
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I've been looking at Sohei again, and it actually makes for quite a good archer if the combat allows for mounted archery to shine. Consider that they can take mounted feats with their bonus feats without needing prerequisites, and they can grab trick riding at level 2 to further protect their mount.
Losing fast movement doesn't hurt very much because they'll be in the saddle, and light armor proficiency is a bonus. At level 6 they get the ability to flurry with a bow, and they can already give it an extra enhancement bonus with ki points.
Just be prepared to buy a couple dozen horses up until leadership at level 7.
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I'm not wrong Mergy.
( from monk class, under weapon/armor proficiency:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#monk. since sohei is an archtype, while they get broader armor and weapon proficiency. it doesn't negate the consequences of wearing armor or using a shield )
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
and any class thats mount centric should get some sort of mount/animal companion that levels up a little. even if its class level -3. otherwise their horse is the obvious target to negate a broad range of their abilities/feats.
Well, I hope a developer can clarify the OP's question.
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Actually, the Sohei CAN Flurry in light armor. In ANY armor, in fact. The ban against FoB in armor is part of the "Weapon & Armor Proficiency" section of the Monk Class Features. The Sohei does not have that bit. They have a different, independent "Weapon & Armor Proficiency" section. One with no restrictions on FoB.
Note that AC bonus and Fast Movement (but not FoB), while called out in the proficiency section, include their own seperate armor bans. Also, the Zen Archer and Empty Hand Monk proficiency sections reference & modify the core Monk - only the Sohei actually replaces it.
My Paladin 4/Sohei 1 Crane Style longsword flurry guy is back on track.
Actually, the Sohei CAN Flurry in light armor. In ANY armor, in fact. The ban against FoB in armor is part of the "Weapon & Armor Proficiency" section of the Monk Class Features. The Sohei does not have that bit. They have a different, independent "Weapon & Armor Proficiency" section. One with no restrictions on FoB.
Note that AC bonus and Fast Movement (but not FoB), while called out in the proficiency section, include their own seperate armor bans. Also, the Zen Archer and Empty Hand Monk proficiency sections reference & modify the core Monk - only the Sohei actually replaces it.
Huh. I think you might have cracked it. At least, this is the most logical answer I've seen yet. Although this system does leave the oddity that an armored sohei would lose evasion (since it mentions armor), but not improved evasion (it still mentions helplessness, but not armor).
Actually, the Sohei CAN Flurry in light armor. In ANY armor, in fact. The ban against FoB in armor is part of the "Weapon & Armor Proficiency" section of the Monk Class Features. The Sohei does not have that bit. They have a different, independent "Weapon & Armor Proficiency" section. One with no restrictions on FoB.
Note that AC bonus and Fast Movement (but not FoB), while called out in the proficiency section, include their own seperate armor bans. Also, the Zen Archer and Empty Hand Monk proficiency sections reference & modify the core Monk - only the Sohei actually replaces it.
My Paladin 4/Sohei 1 Crane Style longsword flurry guy is back on track.
OMG, this suddenly makes me want a Splintering Weapon Sohei with the Thrown weapon block.
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the sohei is a monk archtype. it doesn't need to reprint the monk weapon and armor proficiencies for each archtype. if they could flurry in armor, that would be the exception to the class's rule, and would need to be listed in the archtype. they only added to the proficiencies and armor, since monks are not proficient in all simple and martial weapons, nor light armor.
a sohei has an option: wear armor, lose flurry, lose monk AC bonus, but get a nice solid Armor bonus that he can improve upon,
or not wear armor, flurry, and rely on his monk AC bonus. it gives him options rather than having to artificially inflate his wisdom stat.
the sohei is a monk archtype. it doesn't need to reprint the monk weapon and armor proficiencies for each archtype. if they could flurry in armor, that would be the exception to the class's rule, and would need to be listed in the archtype. they only added to the proficiencies and armor, since monks are not proficient in all simple and martial weapons, nor light armor.
a sohei has an option: wear armor, lose flurry, lose monk AC bonus, but get a nice solid Armor bonus that he can improve upon,
or not wear armor, flurry, and rely on his monk AC bonus. it gives him options rather than having to artificially inflate his wisdom stat.
But consider the difference between the Zen Archer and the Sohei Monk
Zen archers are proficient with longbows, shortbows, composite longbows, and composite shortbows in addition to their normal weapon proficiencies.
A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.
The Sohei Monk does not modify the current proficiencies, but replaces them entirely, thus losing the line about flurrying in armor. The Zen Monk only modifies the proficiencies, and so cannot flurry in armor, even if she spends a feat on it.
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Zen archer adds specific martial weapons. the Sohei is specifically proficient in simple and martial weapons. No kama, no sai, no monk weapons. they don't need text to the effect of "in addition to his normal proficiencies" because it doesn't include his normal proficiencies. it makes no mention of a change in flurry of blows, so flurry of blows and its restrictions mentioned in weapon and armor proficiencies of the Monk class still apply.
I keep hearing from Sean about players reading into abilities in the summoner forum. if its not mentioned, then its not changed.
you can house rule it all you want, but RAW, monks cannot flurry in armor. a sohei is a monk. they only changed what they changed, they did not change the entire monk entry on armor.
if you have a question about it, flag it for FAQ. they certainly screwed up on entries in the Monk section in UC (tretori i'm looking at you)
eventually they might even answer
Zen archer adds specific martial weapons. the Sohei is specifically proficient in simple and martial weapons. No kama, no sai, no monk weapons. they don't need text to the effect of "in addition to his normal proficiencies" because it doesn't include his normal proficiencies. it makes no mention of a change in flurry of blows, so flurry of blows and its restrictions mentioned in weapon and armor proficiencies of the Monk class still apply.
I keep hearing from Sean about players reading into abilities in the summoner forum. if its not mentioned, then its not changed.
you can house rule it all you want, but RAW, monks cannot flurry in armor. a sohei is a monk. they only changed what they changed, they did not change the entire monk entry on armor.
if you have a question about it, flag it for FAQ. they certainly screwed up on entries in the Monk section in UC (tretori i'm looking at you)
eventually they might even answer
The general rule is that an archetypal class ability completely replaces it's core class ability equivalent.
When a character selects a class, he must choose to use the standard class features found in the Core Rulebook or those listed in one of the archetypes presented here. Each alternate class feature replaces a specific class feature from its parent class.
Specific class abilities alter this general rule to make it so that the new class ability only modifies the old one. Zen Archer is one such case, where the new class ability states that it exists in conjunction with the old one.
Since the Sohei does not include any language suggesting that his weapon and armor proficiency exists in conjunction with the old one, it completely replaces that entire class ability. As that class ability is the only place it is mentioned that armor restricts his flurry of blows (as opposed to fast movement, and AC bonus, which include similar language in those class ability sections), that restriction is removed from the Sohei monk.
I think shoei monk is proficient in monk weapons. It's not as is written, but he can take monk weapons with weapon training. An errata will explain this, but the purpose it's quite clear. I can't say the same for wis armor bonus. Maybe it's not intended to be used with light armor, nor is flurry (but this would be more strange).
Definitively, we need errata.
I think shoei monk is proficient in monk weapons. It's not as is written, but he can take monk weapons with weapon training. An errata will explain this, but the purpose it's quite clear. I can't say the same for wis armor bonus. Maybe it's not intended to be used with light armor, nor is flurry (but this would be more strange).
Definitively, we need errata.
No monk is prof. with all monk weapons, there is although a fighter archetype that does that.
Ok there is a lot of speculation on this topic but nothing posted that i can find online about this problem. I'm creating a monk for my pathfinder campaign and i need to know whether or not the Sohei gets the AC bonus while wearing light armor and is he allowed to do furry of blows while wearing his light armor and is he allow to use his monk weapons. Since the archetype page states “Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class,”so would the change with the Weapon and Armor Proficiency change its entire text to what the Sohei's Weapon and Armor Proficiency text is and if so would he then be allowed to do Furry of Blows and get his AC bonus as well??
General consensus is no, then yes. Everyone agrees that the Sohei loses his Wisdom bonus to AC when wearing armor, so that's definitely no. The Sohei proficiency replaces the normal monk proficiency, therefore you get to flurry in armor (as is the general consensus). As i read it, it appears to work like this:
-Monk proficiency included a no flurry in armor clause
-Sohei archetype replaces normal monk proficiency
-Sohei proficiency purposfully omits the no flurry in armor clause, therefore making it legal to flurry in armor
from how im reading it, the sohei is a mix between a calvalier and a monk; mixing in the armor, weapons, and horse components of a knight with some of the abilities of a monk.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9rag
Monk, Sohei: Can a sohei use flurry of blows while wearing light armor?
Yes (but not medium or heavy armor). However, a sohei does not gain his monk AC bonus class feature when wearing armor.
The next printing of Ultimate Combat will be changed to reflect this ruling.