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I'm trying to build a formidable 9th-level monk - basically trying to recreate someone like Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda to use as a potential antagonist. I decided to try using the Maneuver Master archetype, but I ran into problems almost immediately:
The Maneuver Master seems like he would not be good acting on his own, but needs to be a support fighter. He makes for an insanely good grappler if you take the right feats (improved & Greater Grapple, Body Shield) and he can trip & disarm opponents like nobody's business. In fact, with Flurry of Maneuvers, he can disarm, then trip, then grapple you all in one full-round action.
The thing is, if I'm reading the "Flurry of maneuvers" description right, he can't combine maneuvers and strikes - he's either maneuvering you or damaging you, but he can't do both in the same round, unless I'm missing something. This presents a problem, since it seems to me that unless he can somehow use terrain to his advantage (throwing or repositioning you off a cliff or into a set of spikes or something) then he'll have a hard time actually hurting anyone, especially if he's threatened by multiple opponents. He'll be able to hold them off for a damn long time, but taking them down will have to be done mostly with Attacks of Opportunity.
So - am I missing something, or is he more a support archetype than someone who could be a big bad guy in his own right?
Next, I think I'll see what I can do with a Master of Many Styles.
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I'm trying to build a formidable 9th-level monk - basically trying to recreate someone like Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda to use as a potential antagonist. I decided to try using the Maneuver Master archetype, but I ran into problems almost immediately:
The Maneuver Master seems like he would not be good acting on his own, but needs to be a support fighter. He makes for an insanely good grappler if you take the right feats (improved & Greater Grapple, Body Shield) and he can trip & disarm opponents like nobody's business. In fact, with Flurry of Maneuvers, he can disarm, then trip, then grapple you all in one full-round action.
The thing is, if I'm reading the "Flurry of maneuvers" description right, he can't combine maneuvers and strikes - he's either maneuvering you or damaging you, but he can't do both in the same round, unless I'm missing something. This presents a problem, since it seems to me that unless he can somehow use terrain to his advantage (throwing or repositioning you off a cliff or into a set of spikes or something) then he'll have a hard time actually hurting anyone, especially if he's threatened by multiple opponents. He'll be able to hold them off for a damn long time, but taking them down will have to be done mostly with Attacks of Opportunity.
So - am I missing something, or is he more a support archetype than someone who could be a big bad guy in his own right?
Next, I think I'll see what I can do with a Master of Many Styles.
Here's something I put together with an 11th level Monk, though you might be able to do it with a 9th, depends on the pre-req's for Vicious Stomp:
While working out a Manuever Master monk I realized I could do three manuevers and three AoO's to two opponents on one attack action.
A
X
B
-------------------
So Player X trips Opponent A (Improved Trip)
Which provokes an AoO (Greater Trip)
Player X slams Opponent A into Opponent B with a Bull Rush (Improved Ki Thow)
Opponent B is knocked prone adjacent to Player X (thanks to the wall behind him) provoking another AoO (Combat Reflexes and Vicious Stomp)
Opponent A lands prone in Opponent B's old square provoking another AoO (Combat Reflexes and Vicious Stomp)
Player X then locks in a swift action grapple on Opponent A (Binding Throw)
That's all on the first manuever. He could maintain the grapple for the next Manuever or two to do damage, or he could pin and do damage, or grapple for damage and then disarm one or both opponents.
The best thing is, if they stand up they provoke, and you can rinse and repeat on your next round.
Or picture readying to perform a flurry of manuever's as someone approaches you.
Trip, AoO, Ki throw and land, AoO, Grapple, all on the first manuever. Then you use the rest of your manuevers to disarm and pin him.
Tripped, grapples, disarmed, and pinned all in the same round.
I'd tap out...
So - am I missing something, or is he more a support archetype than someone who could be a big bad guy in his own right?
Combat maneuers in general are considered mostly a support/control function as you're essentially debuffing or messing with the other guy so your friend the barbarian can turn them into a wet smear on the ground.
If you want a crazy bad guy who can straight up hurt you there's nothign wrong with a Martial Artist/MAster of Many styles. That to me fits Tai Lung much better anyway. He'll hit really hard adn can have some impressive defenses. If you give him a couple of maneuver master cronies h can very easily pose a potent challenge to an unprepared group.
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Here's something I put together with an 11th level Monk, though you might be able to do it with a 9th, depends on the pre-req's for Vicious Stomp:
While working out a Manuever Master monk I realized I could do three manuevers and three AoO's to two opponents on one attack action.
A
X
B
-------------------
So Player X trips Opponent A (Improved Trip)
Which provokes an AoO (Greater Trip)
Player X slams Opponent A into Opponent B with a Bull Rush (Improved Ki Thow)
Opponent B is knocked prone adjacent to...
Okay, this sounds better. Basically, he's going to need combat reflexes for the extra AOOs, plus Combat Expertise to get access to the feat trees for trip and disarm, etc. I've got 7 feats to work with, which is a pretty tight budget - maybe I should bump him up to 11th level.
What about stats? Can't decide whether to favor Strength or Dex. If I favor Dex, I'll have to blow a feat on Agile Maneuvers (and probably weapon finesse), so I'm thinking strength is the way to go.
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If you want a crazy bad guy who can straight up hurt you there's nothing wrong with a Martial Artist/Master of Many styles. That to me fits Tai Lung much better anyway. He'll hit really hard and can have some impressive defenses. If you give him a couple of maneuver master cronies h can very easily pose a potent challenge to an unprepared group.
I hadn't thought about maneuver master mooks, but that's a great idea. The "Flowing Monk" is actually pretty damn brilliant for a single guy who's going to be moving around a lot (In Soviet Russia, Attack of Opportunity provokes you!) but I'm thinking Master of Many Styles is going to be more the way to go.
once you have successively grappled a dude you can do max damage the next round.
Okay, this sounds better. Basically, he's going to need combat reflexes for the extra AOOs, plus Combat Expertise to get access to the feat trees for trip and disarm, etc. I've got 7 feats to work with, which is a pretty tight budget - maybe I should bump him up to 11th level.
What about stats? Can't decide whether to favor Strength or Dex. If I favor Dex, I'll have to blow a feat on Agile Maneuvers (and probably weapon finesse), so I'm thinking strength is the way to go.
You don't need Combat expertise because Manuever monks can take Greater feats as bonus feats after 6th.
Stats (20 points):
S - 16
D - 16
C - 12
I - 10
W - 14
Ch - 8
At 9th you have 5 regular feats, 1 bonus human feat (if you go that way), and 3 bonus monk feats for a total of 9(as well as Improved Unarmed, and Stunning blow).
Feats you need for above:
1st - Improved trip (bonus monk feat)
1st - improved grapple
1st - Ki Throw
2nd - combat reflexes
3rd - Binding throw
5th - Improved Bull Rush
6th - Greater trip (bonus monk feat)
7th - improved ki throw
9th - Vicious Stomp (though I'm not sure what the pre-req's for this are)
By 3rd level you can already trip and grapple a guy in one action.
I'm not sure if Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler are even necessary (the 10th and 11th level feats I'd take) because you might be able to do the same thing with a Flurry of Manuevers. But the extra +2 to grapple is nice. Also, if you take Greater Bullrush, I think the bullrush created by the Ki Throw would then provoke from everyone around the target. So even if you push him away form you, others may be able to get the AoO.
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Okay, this sounds better. Basically, he's going to need combat reflexes for the extra AOOs, plus Combat Expertise to get access to the feat trees for trip and disarm, etc. I've got 7 feats to work with, which is a pretty tight budget - maybe I should bump him up to 11th level.
What about stats? Can't decide whether to favor Strength or Dex. If I favor Dex, I'll have to blow a feat on Agile Maneuvers (and probably weapon finesse), so I'm thinking strength is the way to go.
You don't need Combat expertise because Manuever monks can take Greater feats as bonus feats after 6th.
Stats (20 points):
S - 16
D - 16
C - 12
I - 10
W - 14
Ch - 8At 9th you have 5 regular feats, 1 bonus human feat (if you go that way), and 3 bonus monk feats for a total of 9(as well as Improved Unarmed, and Stunning blow).
Feats you need for above:
1st - Improved trip (bonus monk feat)
1st - improved grapple
1st - Ki Throw
2nd - combat reflexes
3rd - Binding throw
5th - Improved Bull Rush
6th - Greater trip (bonus monk feat)
7th - improved ki throw
9th - Vicious Stomp (though I'm not sure what the pre-req's for this are)By 3rd level you can already trip and grapple a guy in one action.
I'm not sure if Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler are even necessary (the 10th and 11th level feats I'd take) because you might be able to do the same thing with a Flurry of Manuevers. But the extra +2 to grapple is nice. Also, if you take Greater Bullrush, I think the bullrush created by the Ki Throw would then provoke from everyone around the target. So even if you push him away form you, others may be able to get the AoO.
Hey man, I believe monks only get access to the Improveds as bonus feats, not the Greaters.
Hey man, I believe monks only get access to the Improveds as bonus feats, not the Greaters.
Maneuver masters get them as bonus feats.
Hey man, I believe monks only get access to the Improveds as bonus feats, not the Greaters.Okay, this sounds better. Basically, he's going to need combat reflexes for the extra AOOs, plus Combat Expertise to get access to the feat trees for trip and disarm, etc. I've got 7 feats to work with, which is a pretty tight budget - maybe I should bump him up to 11th level.
What about stats? Can't decide whether to favor Strength or Dex. If I favor Dex, I'll have to blow a feat on Agile Maneuvers (and probably weapon finesse), so I'm thinking strength is the way to go.
You don't need Combat expertise because Manuever monks can take Greater feats as bonus feats after 6th.
Stats (20 points):
S - 16
D - 16
C - 12
I - 10
W - 14
Ch - 8At 9th you have 5 regular feats, 1 bonus human feat (if you go that way), and 3 bonus monk feats for a total of 9(as well as Improved Unarmed, and Stunning blow).
Feats you need for above:
1st - Improved trip (bonus monk feat)
1st - improved grapple
1st - Ki Throw
2nd - combat reflexes
3rd - Binding throw
5th - Improved Bull Rush
6th - Greater trip (bonus monk feat)
7th - improved ki throw
9th - Vicious Stomp (though I'm not sure what the pre-req's for this are)By 3rd level you can already trip and grapple a guy in one action.
I'm not sure if Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler are even necessary (the 10th and 11th level feats I'd take) because you might be able to do the same thing with a Flurry of Manuevers. But the extra +2 to grapple is nice. Also, if you take Greater Bullrush, I think the bullrush created by the Ki Throw would then provoke from everyone around the target. So even if you push him away form you, others may be able to get the AoO.
Master of Manuever monks get access to the greaters at 6th level.
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Vicious Stomp works whenever a guy falls prone next to you, so builds using it aren't limited to just the Trip Feats, they can go Overrun too or leverage other methods of 'proning' people (wand of Gease, fighting on ice... that sort of thing).
Elephant Stomp from the Sargava book actually works really well with an overrun / Viscious Stomp build (but you need to get past the confusing wording and check out the designer's intent for the thing, posted around here someplace - search for Elephant Stomp and you'll find it).
Tripping is usually easier though...
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The thing is, if I'm reading the "Flurry of maneuvers" description right, he can't combine maneuvers and strikes...It doesn't say anything like that in the flurry of maneuvers description.
To paraphrase, it says, "Make a full attack. Gain one or more bonus maneuvers at a penalty." There are no restrictions on what sort of attacks or maneuvers you can make as part of your full attack.
Ah - I see where I'm confused. Trip and Disarm can both be used in place of an attack, but grappling requires a standard action (unless you have Greater Grapple, in which case it's a move action). Dirty Trick, Drag, Steal, and Reposition are all standard actions as well.
In those cases, you can't grapple, etc. as part of a full attack routine. However, you're saying that the Flurry of Maneuvers allows you to do either:
- Any Standard Action Combat Maneuver + bonus Flurry Maneuvers
OR
- Full Attack Routine + bonus Flurry Maneuvers
If that's the case, can I do one or more of the bonus Flurry Maneuvers BEFORE I do the full attack routine? That would be good!
I don't see why not. The only thing you might not be able to do is perform your bonus maneuvers in the middle of your regular full attack routine. But I don't see anything preventing you from doing them before your attack routine.
So looking at this like two weapon fighting, which is what Flurry emulates...
All of the "off-hand" attacks normally granted by Flurry of blows are replaced with combat maneuvers, but the "Main hand" attacks of the routine can still be unarmed strikes?If so that's pretty bad-ass.
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The primary strength of the Maneuver Master is to choose feats early -- but once you get over that (i.e., level up), as a "dip" class it's not offering you anything.
Master of Many Styles, however, gives you access to some awesome stuff which you otherwise couldn't even have -- such as an entire three-chain Style arc at 1st-level. Also at 1st level he can "Fuse" two styles (have the up at the same time). -- Take a look at Panther and Crane, and imagine having them going at the same time. You could have both arcs by 3rd-level as a monk1/figh2.
The primary strength of the Maneuver Master is to choose feats early -- but once you get over that (i.e., level up), as a "dip" class it's not offering you anything.
Master of Many Styles, however, gives you access to some awesome stuff which you otherwise couldn't even have -- such as an entire three-chain Style arc at 1st-level. Also at 1st level he can "Fuse" two styles (have the up at the same time). -- Take a look at Panther and Crane, and imagine having them going at the same time. You could have both arcs by 3rd-level as a monk1/figh2.
That depends on what you mean by "both arcs."
There is only one way I can find to have all of Crane style remotely that early, and it is not as you have described. Some of the others, like Panther, can be done easily because the only feat in the tree that has a prereq outside of the tree itself is the first feat. Crane won't work that way because the first feat has 2 feat prereqs, and the 2nd and 3rd in the tree have increasing BAB/Monk level reqs.
If you were MoMS Monk2/Fighter2 you could have Crane 2 and Panther 3, but there is no way to have Crane 3 unless you are only dipping fighter and take the mediocre Unarmed Fighter Archetype. He gets a style feat as his bonus 1st level and only has to meet style-progression prereqs, not all prereqs.
The primary strength of the Maneuver Master is to choose feats early -- but once you get over that (i.e., level up), as a "dip" class it's not offering you anything.
Master of Many Styles, however, gives you access to some awesome stuff which you otherwise couldn't even have -- such as an entire three-chain Style arc at 1st-level. Also at 1st level he can "Fuse" two styles (have the up at the same time). -- Take a look at Panther and Crane, and imagine having them going at the same time. You could have both arcs by 3rd-level as a monk1/figh2.
That depends on what you mean by "both arcs."
There is only one way I can find to have all of Crane style remotely that early, and it is not as you have described. Some of the others, like Panther, can be done easily because the only feat in the tree that has a prereq outside of the tree itself is the first feat. Crane won't work that way because the first feat has 2 feat prereqs, and the 2nd and 3rd in the tree have increasing BAB/Monk level reqs.
If you were MoMS Monk2/Fighter2 you could have Crane 2 and Panther 3, but there is no way to have Crane 3 unless you are only dipping fighter and take the mediocre Unarmed Fighter Archetype. He gets a style feat as his bonus 1st level and only has to meet style-progression prereqs, not all prereqs.
Actually, a Master of Many Styles monk does NOT have to meet most prereqs for style feats.....
"Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels
thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style
feat or the Elemental Fist feat (Advanced Player’s Guide 158).
He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat,
except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of
many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such
as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he
already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child
Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet
any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.
This ability replaces a monk’s standard bonus feats."
So the monk can ignore all BAB, skill rank, or feat requirements for style feats... so long as he selects it as a bonus monk feat.
Not only that, but interestingly they can pick up the 3rd style feat in the chain and skip over the 2nd. They only need the first style feat to qualify, and ignore all other pre-reqs.
This is great for some style chains where the 2nd feat is kind of a dud (Mantis Wisdom comes to mind).
Therefore a human master of many styles monk could get all 3 crane feats by level 2.
Level 1 Human Bonus Feat - Dodge (required pre-req for Crane Style)
Level 1 Feat - Crane Style
Level 1 Monk Bonus Feat - Crane Wing (ignore pre-reqs)
Level 2 Monk Bonus Feat - Crane Riposte (ignore pre-reqs)
Actually, a Master of Many Styles monk does NOT have to meet most prereqs for style feats....."Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels
thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style
feat or the Elemental Fist feat (Advanced Player’s Guide 158).
He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat,
except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of
many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such
as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he
already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child
Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet
any...
Okay, so I slightly misinterpreted that passage; however my original point that there is no way you get all of Crane and Panther at ECL3 stands.
I do see now that you could have all of Crane by then, if you wanted to spend the real feat on Dodge.
Also, what you pointed out about the way that passage is written definitely exposes an exploit, whether it's RAI or not, that is useful as you said. There are definitely a few Style trees that have a downer of a 2nd feat but a decent 3rd.
The Style feats are also Combat feats, and some (the "easy" ones) could therefore be taken with fighter levels.
I kind of like the idea of an inquisitor or magus taking the Kirin Style feats.
The Style feats are also Combat feats, and some (the "easy" ones) could therefore be taken with fighter levels.I kind of like the idea of an inquisitor or magus taking the Kirin Style feats.
I made up a Middle Aged Master of many styles 2/unarmed fighter 1/ Inquisitor 7 with all three Kirin Style focusing on Wisdom and Int for rediculous knowledge checks in all categories that I could come up against. I also tossed in Knowlege Devotion since it was for a HB game. That guy is alot of fun. He usually has +17ish dmg and +7ish to attack off anything he can identity with those knowlege bonuses around 36ish. He can at lvl 10 max identify the terrasque. He is alot of fun for roleplaying. I got the Guided enchant for him on his Ropedart.
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The primary strength of the Maneuver Master is to choose feats early -- but once you get over that (i.e., level up), as a "dip" class it's not offering you anything.
Personally I'd say the primary strength of the class is the Flurry of Maneuvers Class Feature. Not only does it give you a 'free' maneuver per full-attack action, which can be any maneuver (not just the 'replaces an attack' ones), but the -2 to-hit only applies to combat maneuver checks, not to your normal attack rolls. Also, nothing indicates you can't so this in full plate too. In essence, you gain a free combat maneuver per turn and lose nothing. This is what makes the Maneuver Master an awesome 1-level dip for any melee class, IMHO.
Of course, that whole ability may be nerfed once the Paizo chaps get round to doing errata for UC... ;)
The maneuver flurry text never mentions anything like "otherwise functions as flurry of blows", so the dipper gets to use whatever weapons or armors or shields they like, and they get an extra maneuver at -2 every time they full attack, with no penalty to non-maneuver attack rolls. It's tough for me to avoid dipping this archetype with almost any combatant.
The maneuver flurry text never mentions anything like "otherwise functions as flurry of blows", so the dipper gets to use whatever weapons or armors or shields they like, and they get an extra maneuver at -2 every time they full attack, with no penalty to non-maneuver attack rolls.
This is true, but I can easily see how GMs would object to this. For example: flurry of blows with a whip? I merely joked about it and my GM gave me a dirty look. In all honesty, though, Monk weapons can still do this Archetype justice.
With a Kyoketsu Shoge or a Double Chained Kama you can flurry from reach and make trip, disarm, or grapple combat maneuvers. It still maintains the spirit of the "Flurry" class features and has you performing multiple combat maneuvers per round from reach at low levels. This is especially useful because your Monk's AC will most likely tend to be on the low side until you gather enough magic items, so you don't want to get too close to that Troglodite wielding a Greataxe (and remember, increases in modifiers due to Headbands of Inspired Wisdom and Belts of Incredible Dexterity add points directly to a Monk's AC in addition to other Dex and Wis benefits.)But I digress. You may still find that these are not your optimal choices, as you require an Exotic Proficiency (Damn that +1 BAB requirement!) or a level of a class proficient in the weapon you wish to make it useful.
I would also concur that this seems to be a dip Archetype class (as the benefits of the 11th and 15th level Archetype features seem to be useful but come a little late) if it were not for the sheer amount of choice you now have in performing combat maneuvers with a Flurry of Manuevers. With Ki Throw feats, Vicious Stomp, a Monk reach-trip or disarm weapon, and any Greater manuever feat of your choice you've turned your formerly melee damage based class into a major force of debuffs and battlefield control while still doing damage from Attacks of Opportunity with your unarmed strikes.
And remember: your requirement-free Combat Maneuver Feats? They can only be selected as Monk Bonus Feats. That's why you don't just start taking fighter levels and be able to provoke AoOs with every maneuver in the game.
Flowing Monk + Panther style.
Just throwing that out there.
It doesn't seem like Flowing monk and Panther would stack very well?
Flowing already let's you retaliate but it is an immediate (so uses your swift)
And Panther also requires your swift (until you get to Panther Claw)