What about Golarion bugs you?


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Actually Andorra sounds more like a people name than Andoran. Andorra sounds like a female name, while Andoran sounds like a place, or region.

And people were named after Gods. They just aren't in this day an age. A lot of that is probably because of the major religions worshipped today, there are some major differences between religions of today, and religions of the past.

In the past, almost every God (or spirit) had a name. Be it Asian, European, African, American etc. they all had names. Many people were named after Gods or religious people 'in their honor' just as humans do today with characters from favorite T.V. shows, or books, or personal heroes, or political inspirations etc.

However, when you look at the religions of today, there are some major differences. In Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, Gods name is supposed to be secret. However, Christians believe Jesus to be, not only the Son of God, but also God at the same time, while being separate from God himself. So, in one way, Jesus is a 'God' or at least a Divine Entity, and people are named after Jesus.

While Judaism and Islam don't have the Jesus name to draw from (not like Christians do anyway), there are plenty of others to use. Moses and Muhammad in particular, or Abraham, or Noah. Christianity also has a number of Saints to name their children after, and many of the people you know may bare one of their names.

Also, many people are named after places. States for example, like Georgia, or Victoria, aren't just location names, they are people names.

Honestly, when I look at the names that Pathfinder has for it's world and countries, never once have I thought of them as people names. But, it wouldn't surprise me at all for people in Golarion to have named their children after a country, or region, or God.

In fact, I bet there are probably scores of people named Cayden, or Iomedae, or Norgorber, or Aroden within Absolam. It's the area where 4 mortals Ascended after-all.


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Tels wrote:


And people were named after Gods. They just aren't in this day an age. A lot of that is probably because of the major religions worshipped today, there are some major differences between religions of today, and religions of the past.

Technically, anyone named Jesus or Joshua is named after a god, according to trinitarians.

I've met a woman named Shakti.

Sovereign Court Contributor

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RJGrady wrote:
Tels wrote:


And people were named after Gods. They just aren't in this day an age. A lot of that is probably because of the major religions worshipped today, there are some major differences between religions of today, and religions of the past.

Technically, anyone named Jesus or Joshua is named after a god, according to trinitarians.

I've met a woman named Shakti.

My mom is named Diane. My daughter has a friend named Odin. I knew a kid when I was young named Krishna. Both my cats are named after goddesses (Nyx and Nut).

I agree that Cayden and Iomedae are probably still ordinary names in Golarion. Norgorber probably isn't.

Grand Lodge

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While I love the setting overall, as it really does allow you to play just about anything you can think of, some of the nations are so "strange" or far different from their next door neighbors, I sometimes find it difficult to believe that some of them even exist side-by-side, or exist at all. Don't know how else to say it.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The part of the world where "ZDZISŁAW GRZEGORZ BRZĘCZYSZCZYKIEWICZ" is a perfectly valid and normal name sees your concerns about how "Golarion" sounds like a person's name, and raises you a bottle. Of Żubrówka.


Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Jeff Erwin wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Tels wrote:


And people were named after Gods. They just aren't in this day an age. A lot of that is probably because of the major religions worshipped today, there are some major differences between religions of today, and religions of the past.

Technically, anyone named Jesus or Joshua is named after a god, according to trinitarians.

I've met a woman named Shakti.

My mom is named Diane. My daughter has a friend named Odin. I knew a kid when I was young named Krishna. Both my cats are named after goddesses (Nyx and Nut).

I agree that Cayden and Iomedae are probably still ordinary names in Golarion. Norgorber probably isn't.

I know at least five "Tor," and three "Freja" - and two of those have (weirdo) parents who are indeed naming their children after their gods.


that there are no male gods of love and beauty

Lantern Lodge

xLegionx wrote:


Another example, Faerun. I like that name because simply it just doesnt sound like something you would name somebody. And its the name of the continent in the forgotten realms so to me that helps to make me feel like the world is more believable.

I'm honestly not familiar with the Faerun setting, like I know its a THING but thats about it. And to be honest, if i didnt know any better, I could totally place an elf in my campaign 'Faerun Whisperwind' and no one would bat an eye.


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xavier c wrote:
that there are no male gods of love and beauty

There was one, but he went nuts and now he is the god of pain and shadow.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

{brandishes +1 mithral comb of nit-picking} I like, even love, much of the campaign setting (guns, Numeria, oodles of gods, analogs of Earth cultures/nations)... but that's another thread topic. So, in no particular order:

  • Not enough use of proteans (and other neutral beings). Way too much reliance on demons and devils.

  • Back off, Toadstool $lut! There is never too much demons (who gives a crap about devils)!!!

    Seriously though, the machination of demon lords are the plot of some of D&D's most enduring adventures: Queen of the Spiders, Temple of Elemental Evil, Lost Caverns of Tsojancth, The Bloodstone Series (some may argue with that one), The Shackled City and Savage Tide adventure paths, Dead Gods, etc.

    One blogger did wrote that Dungeons & Dragons should've been called Dungeons & Demons given that published adventures seem to have demons more often the lead villains that dragons.


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    Amaranthine Witch wrote:
    xavier c wrote:
    that there are no male gods of love and beauty
    There was one, but he went nuts and now he is the god of pain and shadow.

    The irony is that in the real world, the he-man woman-hater Norse pantheon have a male god of beauty, not something you would expect. Although I think Balder being a god of beauty is more of a present day interpretation of him than how he was viewed and worshipped back then.


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    Where do I start? Don't get me wrong, I love Golarion and the people at Paizo are the best yet at world/game creation, but it seems like every game world that I've played on has to have real earth analogues on the campaign world. I'm rather tired of it, that's been done to death...lets be a bit more creative ok? Do we really have to have all of the Earth races represented? Maybe some new races with blending of features and appearances. Maybe we could mix it up a wee bit more. The overdone cliche of being stuck in the middle ages/renaissance for the most part..even considering magic and divine presence. Do we really need the French and American revolutions? Really???? More diversity.

    The art, don't get me started. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum and I shouldn't even go there, but... no more up nose shots ok? Who wants to see nasal cavities? Find new and hopefully better artistic talent...enough.

    I don't know, I would like a bit more of the fantastic and fresh.


    Annika L wrote:

    Where do I start? Don't get me wrong, I love Golarion and the people at Paizo are the best yet at world/game creation, but it seems like every game world that I've played on has to have real earth analogues on the campaign world. I'm rather tired of it, that's been done to death...lets be a bit more creative ok? Do we really have to have all of the Earth races represented? Maybe some new races with blending of features and appearances. Maybe we could mix it up a wee bit more. The overdone cliche of being stuck in the middle ages/renaissance for the most part..even considering magic and divine presence. Do we really need the French and American revolutions? Really???? More diversity.

    The art, don't get me started. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum and I shouldn't even go there, but... no more up nose shots ok? Who wants to see nasal cavities? Find new and hopefully better artistic talent...enough.

    I don't know, I would like a bit more of the fantastic and fresh.

    It would refreshing to see blond Asians and redheaded Africans and Nordic amerinds.


    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
    Abyssal Lord wrote:
    Annika L wrote:

    Where do I start? Don't get me wrong, I love Golarion and the people at Paizo are the best yet at world/game creation, but it seems like every game world that I've played on has to have real earth analogues on the campaign world. I'm rather tired of it, that's been done to death...lets be a bit more creative ok? Do we really have to have all of the Earth races represented? Maybe some new races with blending of features and appearances. Maybe we could mix it up a wee bit more. The overdone cliche of being stuck in the middle ages/renaissance for the most part..even considering magic and divine presence. Do we really need the French and American revolutions? Really???? More diversity.

    The art, don't get me started. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum and I shouldn't even go there, but... no more up nose shots ok? Who wants to see nasal cavities? Find new and hopefully better artistic talent...enough.

    I don't know, I would like a bit more of the fantastic and fresh.

    It would refreshing to see blond Asians and redheaded Africans and Nordic amerinds.

    Wouldn't it just make it more effort to convey what players are encountering? The advantage of stereotypes is that they are shortcuts. I don't see who is being damaged by Golarion having blond, bearded Vikings and Asian looking ninjas. What's the gain in deliberately contradicting real world expectations?


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    Causing someone's imagination and brain to activate?


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    RJGrady wrote:
    Causing someone's imagination and brain to activate?

    I guess. I just don't see a big advantage in not using what's already there. It seems to me that fantasy is still stimulating whether its built on real world assumptions or something designed to contradict those.


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    Because when you build completely away from the norm, it doesn't just 'cause imagination to activate' what it does is cause confusion. There are more than just 'cause I said so' reasons for why people developed the way they did.

    For instance, notice how everyone who 'bred white' lives in moderate climates with winters and warm summers. Where as everyone who 'bred brown' lived in hot climates with lots of sun (even deserts). Animals developed things like spots and stripes to help blend into their surroundings. Whether your believe in religion or not, Humans are still animals, and we develop things just like everyone else.

    For instance, people who live in the mountains of Nepal and South America, genetically, have more capillaries in their limbs. This helps keep them warm, and better able to breathe, since the mountains have lower air pressure.

    Sure, it's a 'fantasy world with magic' but there needs to be some realism there. The reason why most campaign settings operate on a 'roughly earth norm' is because humans can't possibly envision all of the different changes a world would have, due to something as seemingly minor as a different level of gravity.

    Notice, for instance, in nearly every desert population in the world, they use things like shawls and robes to shield themselves from the burning sun. This wasn't just because it's a fashion statement, it's a method of survival. Or how, despite being separated by thousands of miles, people in China and people in England still built ships that operated on roughly the same principles. Sure, designs varied, but they were still pretty similar from a mechanical point of view.

    Why? Because that's how the world works. Open up a big sheet, and you can turn the wind into a fairly easy to harness energy.

    Granted, you are unlikely to change such features in a new world, but putting 'earth-like' countries in a region makes sense. Matching the religions and such up should be different, but many aspects of their lives should be fairly similar.

    For instance, in desert regions, you're not going to find wooden houses with thatch roofs. Simply because those resources won't be available. Similarly, you won't find them growing food like rice, because that requires an abundance of water, something that is scarce in a desert.

    The people who adapted to the region of the world they live in, are the way they are for a reason. It's because those adaptations were necessary for survival. Trying to come up with an alternate method of civilization is not only foolish, it's egotistical. What makes you, a person not living in such an environment, so much smarter than the millions that do/did live there? What makes you so sure such ideas would actually work?

    There is a reason why people who lived in the northern parts of the world, dressed in furs (it's cold) and tended towards raiding/marauding. It's because resources were more scarce, and sometimes, the only way to survive, is to take what you need from others.

    There is a reason why people wore loose clothing from head to toe in desert regions. It's to protect themselves from the hot sun, and blistering sand.

    There is a reason why people in rainforests tended to wear less clothing. It's because it's hot, and humid and the clothes make it worse.

    You won't find people wearing heavy furs in the deserts of Egypt, nor would you see them in the jungles of Africa. You also won't see people wearing what amounts to nothing more than a loincloth (and little else) in Norway as their normal everyday clothing.

    As for hair color, keep in mind that black is the most numerous natural hair color on the planet. Followed by brown, blonde, then red/orange.

    You could certainly change that if you wish, but why would you do so? This game is already hard enough to picture for most people as it is. Letting them make comparisons to real world places and people actually helps their immersion into a setting. Being able to describe a place as similar to China, or Mongolia, or Italy in ancient times helps them build characters that could survive, even thrive, in such places. It helps them understand the socio-political environments, without bogging down the game as you explain every subtle nuance of a new country you made up that is different than anything on Earth.

    Being able to say that "Taldor is like Rome after the schism between Byzantium and Rome" lets them know things like it was expansionistic empire that broke apart (Taldor and Cheliax mostly), but is still limping along, however reduced in power.

    Calling Azlant similar to the myths of Atlantis lets you know it's an ancient civilization, lost to the world, rumored to be highly advanced and highly civilized, beyond anything we may have seen today (in the Pathfinder time period).

    These 'analogues' help people immerse themselves in the world. It's far harder to play a game in a world where everything is like nothing Earth has seen before, so you have to learn all different kinds of rules and culture and technologies. It'd be like visiting a different country where gravity is stronger, the sky is yellow, it rains apple juice instead of water, is ruled by an intelligent race of evolved hedgehogs, and being wealthy is a bad thing because it means you have a responsibility to take care of those less wealthy than yourself. The poorer you are, in this imaginary country, the more spoils you attain.


    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

    Yeah, that's what I think too. I like the fact it's close to the real world but different - it makes gaming with people who don't read between sessions much more efficient.

    Silver Crusade

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    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Also, changing things for sake of change smells heavily of Eberron's "everything is really different (but really, it's the same)", and that wasn't a good trend. "Everybody is used to underground spider-worshipping drow, so let's make ours surface scorpion people, so f original!" was one of many things that turned me away from E.


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    Idk, I think the drow was one of their better decisions in Eberron. It curtailed Drizzt Syndrome and the history behind them were pretty cool. Remember, the scorpion drow were but one sect of drow in Eberron.

    That said, the alternate names they gave dinosaurs (and the reasoning behind it) was so dumb. I literally wanted to scream at Baker for it :p

    Silver Crusade

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    Odraude wrote:

    Idk, I think the drow was one of their better decisions in Eberron. It curtailed Drizzt Syndrome and the history behind them were pretty cool. Remember, the scorpion drow were but one sect of drow in Eberron.

    That said, the alternate names they gave dinosaurs (and the reasoning behind it) was so dumb. I literally wanted to scream at Baker for it :p

    Oh yes, the Shardtooth Spineslasher a.k.a. 'raptor and the "Eberron didn't have Latin so why call something T-rex?" rationale was mind-boggling.


    Gorbacz wrote:
    Odraude wrote:

    Idk, I think the drow was one of their better decisions in Eberron. It curtailed Drizzt Syndrome and the history behind them were pretty cool. Remember, the scorpion drow were but one sect of drow in Eberron.

    That said, the alternate names they gave dinosaurs (and the reasoning behind it) was so dumb. I literally wanted to scream at Baker for it :p

    Oh yes, the Shardtooth Spineslasher a.k.a. 'raptor and the "Eberron didn't have Latin so why call something T-rex?" rationale was mind-boggling.

    Yeah. My hatred of that is well documented on the forums.


    @Tels ~ Thank you for the lesson, but you are somewhat missing the point. encouraging imagination is a good thing. You don't have to rip out all of the earth similarities to give it a more fantasy sense.

    If people have that much difficulty with their imagination that they need to play earth with a thin paint of fantasy over the top, why bother to play a rpg at all? Why not just stick to WOW or what ever? You don't need for it to rain apple juice to make it seem like a world on it's own.

    Say, why not allow people who live in the continent to the East to be a more European-ish sort, or another race entirely. Yes, there are genetic and biologically climate based reasons for the peoples to appear as they do, to a point, but there is also cultural and racial migration to be considered. There are many points in Earth's history where if a people had migrated left instead of right, as it were, we would have a culturally and racially different appearance to the world today. ...if say, you have an Asian-type people, why must they all speak, eat, drink and dress exactly like their Earth-based counterpart? There is no reason for it. It doesn't need to be so different that any comparison to reality is impossible for it to be more fantastic. It appears that most of you want to merely play on a fantasy dipped earth. Is imagination truly that difficult? You don't need to run mad off the cliff and go all Eberron to make a fantasy world. I'm frustrated with people for not being willing to use a little imagination. Perhaps I'm not being clear enough in what I'm trying to say, for which I apologize. I'm truly awful at being articulate in posts.

    Reality if a great place to be, but a little imagination isn't fatal either.


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    You're making the false assumption that making loosely, real-world analogues in fantasy somehow requires less imagination. Especially when real-life can be such a great jumping point for making worlds. Personally I think it's more original to use real like as a starting point and going your own way with it, rather than just going "Hey these guys are white people but with an asian culture! So original!!"

    Reality is sometimes way more interesting than fiction, especially if you look in the right places.


    I think that we all have our different view on what makes something fantasy to us. Peace. I don't want to start a war. Merely wishing for some entirely different cultures and appearances and not having all based on an earth similarity. I'll make up my own and toss canon out the window. If it makes the majority happy and they keep buying the Paizo products, I'm good, I'd rather have a game that I like rather than see it fold for lack of money. Just saying that this is what bugs me about Golarion, and indeed, most other game worlds.

    RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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    I'm reminded of Rosenburg's Guardian of the Flame series, where they come across some Pacific Islanders, complete with dark hair and bronzed skin...and they use Viking Dragonships and have a rolling Nordic accent because they are all descended from Vikings drawn across from earth centuries ago.

    But for all that, they lived in thatch huts, wore light clothing, etc, because the environment determined effects.

    This is probably more along the lines of what you want to do culture wise. Just look at the impact Western civilization has had on the far east. Traditional clothing is largely absent, they've all gone to the shirt/trousers/blouse/skirt paradigm in patterns. The only hold-outs are the Middle East, and usually on religious grounds, not from lack of desire to wear pants (when you stone women for wearing pants, they will wear those robes).

    Indeed, probably the oddest thing in Golarion is you're not seeing samurai run around in full plate. European armor was prized among the elite of the far east because they had nothing to equal it, and while you can 'flavor' samurai style armor however you want, it was not the equal of all-metal European armor in reality. So armor styles should be bleeding over there. Once you have that, weapon styles to crack armor should start migrating as well...katanas are not, in reality, very effective against all metal armor. They are designed to deal with the lighter armors of the far east.

    ==Aelryinth


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    Gorbacz wrote:
    Also, changing things for sake of change smells heavily of Eberron's "everything is really different (but really, it's the same)", and that wasn't a good trend. "Everybody is used to underground spider-worshipping drow, so let's make ours surface scorpion people, so f original!" was one of many things that turned me away from E.

    I really don't understand how someone can claim Eberron was made poorly because it changed things to elegantly fit into a single game world. The only things that were bad about it were the stupid dinosaur names and the few monsters and prestige classes that were shoehorned in to meet the WotC requirements that everything from Core 3.5 had to exist in the contest applicants world.


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    Wow, earlier in this thread so many folks put forth the earth analogs on Golarion as something that is less than favorable and now we are getting this argument? Remember this thread is about what bugs you – everyone has a right to their opinion.

    While I understand the need for some frame of reference I too would have preferred something a little more imaginative – little things such as the Aldori Sword Lords using Katana style swords (something I found refreshing rather than - “oh, we are in the shogunate now, let's get out the samurai gear”).

    For illustrative purposes here are some of the things I think Paizo got right:
    - Absolom, the Star Stone, the fall of Azlant.
    - Cheliax, Westcrown in particular, and the evil vassal states.
    - Varisia, Magnimar, and the diversity of this region are fantastic.
    - The Aldori Sword Lords
    - Lost Lands like Thassilon, Jistka, etc. (basically the Lost Kingdoms & Lost Cities books)
    - The Distant Worlds book
    - The First World
    There is more, this is just a sample.

    Some examples of what falls short or feels like it was added in after the fact:
    - Androran (We're Mericka!)
    - Galt (zu Aristos! Madame La Guillotine awaits!)
    - On the far western continent savage Amerids await (Oh look, red skinned humans with Mohawks! I wonder if they'll be friends with me?)
    - Osirion (Walk like an Egyptian...)
    - Stereotypical lands like Qadira and Vudran – the culture and look could have been pushed further from our reality.
    - Kyonin (Oh wait, we need an elfin realm)
    - The Five Kingdoms (Oh wait, we need a dwarven realm)

    Other worlds that got it right:
    I don't care if you liked it or not but the World of Greyhawk had a diverse mix-up of races and history and had a passionate following for over 30 years. That is a hell of a run for any game world.

    Eberon has been mentioned, attacked and defended – I only have a few of the source books so won't jump in, but I like what I have read and would incorporate things like the magic blended with technology if I ever had time to write up a game world of my own, “Mage-Steam Punk” if you will.

    There are other influences like Talislanta, think more of Jack Vance's Dying Earth series than the traditional mix of Tolkien with Earth Mythologies and cultural analogs.

    Sword and Sorcery's Scarred Lands had a terrific take on a world that was both unique, seamlessly ensconced in the game system, yet accessible.

    All in all I believe that a lot more fantastic themes could have been included on Golarion without losing easy points of reference.

    Speaking of diversity -
    I have a problem with a certain lack of permeability. The non-human races feel more like they were bolted on after the fact as I mentioned above.

    Some areas are sort of self-contained microcosms. Things going on in them never really affect anything outside of them. Take the Whispering Tyrant. His history does not seem to have affected any country other than Ustalav and Last Wall; yet supposedly he had conquered most of central Avastan not once but twice. Yet there is no mention in the other countries about how this affected them.

    The last problem I will bring up is history (mainly of gods) getting retconned. What bothers me with the retconning is we have build campaigns around certain facts. Many of my own characters and the campaign I run involve:

    - As a knight of Ozem Iomedae was a paladin of Arazni not Aroden.
    - Arazni was at least a demigoddess or goddess (As she was worshiped by the knights of Ozem and Iomedae) not just a “Herald to Aroden”, “mythic hero god” or “knight” of the crusade.

    I have built a couple of my characters in various campaigns around some of this history – and campaign events centered around them. In the campaign I run many details I have extrapolated from these histories is or is going to be evident.

    Maybe it isn't truly an attempt at retconning but if not then some of the writers really don't know their material and Paizo needs some fact checking to go along with the editorial process.


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    Tels wrote:


    For instance, notice how everyone who 'bred white' lives in moderate climates with winters and warm summers. Where as everyone who 'bred brown' lived in hot climates with lots of sun (even deserts). Animals developed things like spots and stripes to help blend into their surroundings. Whether your believe in religion or not, Humans are still animals, and we develop things just like everyone else.

    I struggle to apply this theory of human development to Palm Beach Florida and Brooklyn, New York.


    Obviously, modern transportation changes the game a bit. But if you look at the people who live natively in a given region, it's a relatively steady, if not smooth, gradient of dark to light as you get farther from the equator.


    Odraude wrote:

    "Hey these guys are white people but with an asian culture! So original!!"

    No more original that the paladin inconic is an African woman prancing around in full plate that is obviously inspired by Medieval Europe.


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    These are a few of the things that bug me about Golarion.

    - The extreme humanocentricity of the setting.
    - The goblins. I just do not like how Wayne Reynolds drew them. It's one gripe I have about his art, and that is the way he draws mouths on various creatures (and the fact that many of his humanoids have no wrists). But they chose the right Wayne to recruit from those who contributed to 3rd Edition. SO glad they didn't bring on Wayne England, and I hope I never have to see anything of his again.
    - The "always chaotic evil" of many of the traditional adversarial races. Goblins, kobolds (more lawful, but still evil), orcs, gnolls... Especially gnolls.
    - Paizo's obsession with Varisia (Sandpoint in particular), while ignoring much of the rest of the world (especially outside of the Inner Sea).
    - The patchwork feel of the Inner Sea region. As someone mentioned pages ago, it seems like Ravenloft, only without the mists. It wouldn't be bad, with the kitchen sink full inclusion setting that Golarion seems to be, but a bit of blending between the neighboring nations would be better.
    - The Lovecraft crap, and in relation, the aberrations in the bestiaries. I am just glad that they can't have mindflayers. What really annoys me is the idea that our brains can't comprehend tentacles. But I can comprehend jellyfish, squids, octopus, and other tentacular creatures. But somehow a four-legged boil with tantacles is supposed to break my mind? That's more a gripe about Lovecraft as a whole, but it annoys the poo out of me that his crap is included in the setting.
    - The profuse abundance of demons and devils. Every bestiary has 6+ of each (it seems). I was never a fan of such creatures.

    That's all that comes to mind at this point. Luckily, in my setting (that I have been working on for 10 years now) fixes a lot of this (non-humanocentric, traditional adversary races aren't always evil, etc). Now if only I could get the map finalized. It has changed about twice each year since I started back in October 2003 (yes, 20 or more times).


    Question for everyone:

    What do you think of the Mauxi?

    My pet peeve: The art tends to make me think that everything is turned to 11 all the time. The people even sleep furiously. Also, how much stuff is listed as "no one can say (smirk)." I don't think it's intentional, and certainly not all people smirk about it, but the feeling of the existence of that smirk gets to me sometimes.


    Adjule wrote:

    These are a few of the things that bug me about Golarion.

    - The profuse abundance of demons and devils. Every bestiary has 6+ of each (it seems). I was never a fan of such creatures.

    Back off, you mangy cur! The more demons the better!


    Adjule wrote:


    - The goblins. I just do not like how Wayne Reynolds drew them. It's one gripe I have about his art, and that is the way he draws mouths on various creatures (and the fact that many of his humanoids have no wrists). But they chose the right Wayne to recruit from those who contributed to 3rd Edition. SO glad they didn't bring on Wayne England, and I hope I never have to see anything of his again.

    Oh! Wrists and ankles! Wrists have their problems, but I'm constantly amused at how many tricks are used to make sure that not a single ankle ever gets shown--and thus drawn poorly.

    I feel for him, though. Ankles are hard to draw.


    More fiends!

    Grand Lodge

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    Wrong John Silver wrote:
    Adjule wrote:


    - The goblins. I just do not like how Wayne Reynolds drew them. It's one gripe I have about his art, and that is the way he draws mouths on various creatures (and the fact that many of his humanoids have no wrists). But they chose the right Wayne to recruit from those who contributed to 3rd Edition. SO glad they didn't bring on Wayne England, and I hope I never have to see anything of his again.

    Oh! Wrists and ankles! Wrists have their problems, but I'm constantly amused at how many tricks are used to make sure that not a single ankle ever gets shown--and thus drawn poorly.

    I feel for him, though. Ankles are hard to draw.

    Ignoring the body parts that you suck at/just hate drawing worked just fine for Rob Liefeld...

    SM


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    StarMartyr365 wrote:
    Wrong John Silver wrote:
    Adjule wrote:


    - The goblins. I just do not like how Wayne Reynolds drew them. It's one gripe I have about his art, and that is the way he draws mouths on various creatures (and the fact that many of his humanoids have no wrists). But they chose the right Wayne to recruit from those who contributed to 3rd Edition. SO glad they didn't bring on Wayne England, and I hope I never have to see anything of his again.

    Oh! Wrists and ankles! Wrists have their problems, but I'm constantly amused at how many tricks are used to make sure that not a single ankle ever gets shown--and thus drawn poorly.

    I feel for him, though. Ankles are hard to draw.

    Ignoring the body parts that you suck at/just hate drawing worked just fine for Rob Liefeld...

    SM

    Being terrible in general worked just fine for Rob Liefeld.


    Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
    Obviously, modern transportation changes the game a bit. But if you look at the people who live natively in a given region, it's a relatively steady, if not smooth, gradient of dark to light as you get farther from the equator.

    Well, unless you count the healthy racial diversity of the Roman Empire and its Greek predecessors. There is a grain of truth in what you are saying. It's just that, that grain is about 11,000 years old.

    Lantern Lodge

    RJGrady wrote:
    Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
    Obviously, modern transportation changes the game a bit. But if you look at the people who live natively in a given region, it's a relatively steady, if not smooth, gradient of dark to light as you get farther from the equator.
    Well, unless you count the healthy racial diversity of the Roman Empire and its Greek predecessors. There is a grain of truth in what you are saying. It's just that, that grain is about 11,000 years old.

    I believe it took HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of years for human beings to evolve and adapt to their surroundings in various parts of the globe. At the time, the people were too far apart to intermingle and so distinct regional differences appeared.

    The Roman Empire is fascinating because it touched so many cultures so early in humanities cultural evolution. But just because Rome had holdings in Gaul and Ethiopia didn't mean that the populations were going to become fully integrated.


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    Revenantdog wrote:


    I believe it took HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of years for human beings to evolve and adapt to their surroundings in various parts of the globe. At the time, the people were too far apart to intermingle and so distinct regional differences appeared.

    The Roman Empire is fascinating because it touched so many cultures so early in humanities cultural evolution. But just because Rome had holdings in Gaul and Ethiopia didn't mean that the populations were going to become fully integrated.

    The migration of the Aryan peoples from the Indus valley to Europe took not even two thousand years. Intermingling has been the constant state of humanity basically forever. The Roman Empire was about as integrated as one can imagine. Blue eyes probably arose from a single ancestor about 10,000 years ago.

    All that is required to produce "regional differences" is a limited genetic pool and a certain amount of time. So-called "racial differences" between human ethnic groups are biologically insignificant.

    While the general trend is for humans to tan closer to the equator, and lighten up as they get closer to the polar, there is no reason to suppose any specific human population reflects such long-term adaptations. The Romani (gypsies) migrated from India only a few hundred years ago. The Japanese people are mostly descended from a single wave of Chinese colonists less than 2000 years ago, mingled with whatever native population they didn't kill off or consign to servile castes. The little people of the forests of Africa have very strong physical distinctiveness (they're four feet tall), but have lived as next-door neighbors to taller people with whom they have traded and occasionally intermingled since time forgotten.

    The threats of skin cancer (on one hand) and vitamin D deficiency (on the other) can drive changes in a group's appearance quite quickly (in biologic terms) if they remain fairly isolated genetically. But even a small stream of immigration is likely to neutralize such drifts. In two hundreds years, Europeans living in Australia have yet to darken noticeably.


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    Khelavraa wrote:

    Wow, earlier in this thread so many folks put forth the earth analogs on Golarion as something that is less than favorable and now we are getting this argument? Remember this thread is about what bugs you – everyone has a right to their opinion.

    While I understand the need for some frame of reference I too would have preferred something a little more imaginative – little things such as the Aldori Sword Lords using Katana style swords (something I found refreshing rather than - “oh, we are in the shogunate now, let's get out the samurai gear”).

    For illustrative purposes here are some of the things I think Paizo got right:
    - Absolom, the Star Stone, the fall of Azlant.
    - Cheliax, Westcrown in particular, and the evil vassal states.
    - Varisia, Magnimar, and the diversity of this region are fantastic.
    - The Aldori Sword Lords
    - Lost Lands like Thassilon, Jistka, etc. (basically the Lost Kingdoms & Lost Cities books)
    - The Distant Worlds book
    - The First World
    There is more, this is just a sample.

    Some examples of what falls short or feels like it was added in after the fact:
    - Androran (We're Mericka!)
    - Galt (zu Aristos! Madame La Guillotine awaits!)
    - On the far western continent savage Amerids await (Oh look, red skinned humans with Mohawks! I wonder if they'll be friends with me?)
    - Osirion (Walk like an Egyptian...)
    - Stereotypical lands like Qadira and Vudran – the culture and look could have been pushed further from our reality.
    - Kyonin (Oh wait, we need an elfin realm)
    - The Five Kingdoms (Oh wait, we need a dwarven realm)

    Other worlds that got it right:
    I don't care if you liked it or not but the World of Greyhawk had a diverse mix-up of races and history and had a passionate following for over 30 years. That is a hell of a run for any game world.

    Eberon has been mentioned, attacked and defended – I only have a few of the source books so won't jump in, but I like what I have read and would incorporate things like the magic blended with technology if I ever...

    To be fair, much of those lands like Qadira, Vudra, and Arcadia have barely been touched upon. Especially Arcadia, where almost nothing is known about it save for the three foreign colonies there. Not to mention, many of the devs like Adam Daigle have even said that Arcadia isn't going to be a complete analogue like the Inner Sea is and will most certainly not be a land filled with the noble savage stereotype.

    Personally, my issue wasn't the poster not liking parts of Golarion. That's fine. But assuming that making lands with real-world analogues doesn't spur the imagination is what got me. I think that's just silly, especially when many of these lands are more than just their inspiration. Andoran is more than just colonial America, especially if you've actually read the source book and not make assumptions about it. Though I definitely agree on the non-human nations. They aren't very well done (especially the Dwarf Kingdoms) and I feel that is a fault of the humanocentric nature of the world, which I agree is a flaw. I feel Janderhoff is much better at being an interesting dwarf kingdom than the Five Kings Mountains and the elves of the Mordant Spire are much more compelling than Kyonin. It's kind of sad that more isn't done with them, but there's nothing that can be done about it since the chances of them getting redone are probably nil. Doesn't help that the Creative Director hates dwarfs...

    Abyssal Lord wrote:
    Odraude wrote:

    "Hey these guys are white people but with an asian culture! So original!!"

    No more original that the paladin iconic is an African woman prancing around in full plate that is obviously inspired by Medieval Europe.

    Can't really compare the two honestly. The iconic paladin has an actual compelling backstory and was an attempt at showing diversity among the heroes. Essentially cementing the idea that anyone can be a hero no matter the race, human ethnicity, or gender. My example was showing the laziness it takes to just take a culture and an ethnicity and simply switch them.

    Rather, I think a good thing to do is to take some aspects of a culture (or cultures) and expand upon them in creative ways. I think one good example is Avatar the Last Airbender cartoon. Here, you had a culture based on the Inuit tribes, but they expanded on it quite a bit, taking into account the magic that they cast. I thought that was pretty interesting and fairly well done.


    That the present year 4713 AR, is 1918 AD "over here".


    It would be nice to create "diversity" by moving beyond the stereotypes and the obvious and think outside the box.


    Abyssal Lord wrote:
    It would be nice to create "diversity" by moving beyond the stereotypes and the obvious and think outside the box.

    You mean like the Mauxi?

    My point about the Mauxi is that the diversity is there, it's just that no one knows what to do with it, because it is different.


    Klebert L. Hall wrote:
    Detect Magic wrote:
    ...It's hard to present a cohesive world setting when you've got stone-age tech all the way up to space-age tech (Numeria). Just doesn't sit well.

    You realize that you have just described Earth, right?

    -Kle.

    I just don't dig the Numerian cyborg/sci-fi angle. I'd hardly compare our technology to that stuff. Conan meets Star Trek isn't really my bag, dig? (And yes, I realize I'm responding to a really, really old post.)


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    Klebert L. Hall wrote:
    Detect Magic wrote:


    Pretty much this. It's hard to present a cohesive world setting when you've got stone-age tech all the way up to space-age tech (Numeria). Just doesn't sit well.

    You realize that you have just described Earth, right?

    -Kle.

    Pretty sure most Third World fights go down with Kalashnikovs, not stone clubs and axes.

    Sovereign Court Contributor

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    Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
    Klebert L. Hall wrote:
    Detect Magic wrote:


    Pretty much this. It's hard to present a cohesive world setting when you've got stone-age tech all the way up to space-age tech (Numeria). Just doesn't sit well.

    You realize that you have just described Earth, right?

    -Kle.
    Pretty sure most Third World fights go down with Kalashnikovs, not stone clubs and axes.

    There are still stone age cultures in our world, in New Guinea and in Brazil, amongst other places.


    Jeff Erwin wrote:
    Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
    Klebert L. Hall wrote:
    Detect Magic wrote:


    Pretty much this. It's hard to present a cohesive world setting when you've got stone-age tech all the way up to space-age tech (Numeria). Just doesn't sit well.

    You realize that you have just described Earth, right?

    -Kle.
    Pretty sure most Third World fights go down with Kalashnikovs, not stone clubs and axes.
    There are still stone age cultures in our world, in New Guinea and in Brazil, amongst other places.

    And they aren't in the public eye at all. They also don't fight giant spider robots in a setting that doesn't even have computer chips.

    Shadow Lodge

    4 people marked this as a favorite.
    Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
    They also don't fight giant spider robots in a setting that doesn't even have computer chips.

    But they should.

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