Is it possible to avoid the caster level requirement of a magic item by adding 5 to the item's creation DC?
For example: My 9th level wizard wants to create a Metamagic Rod which has a CL of 17. The standard DC is 22(5+CL). I do not have the appropiate CL so i decide to add 5(27 total) to the DC to create my metamagic rod.
So a 9th level wizard can create a Metamagic Rod which has a caster level of 17?
Mmm. I think there's something wrong with this rule IMHO
So a 9th level wizard can create a Metamagic Rod which has a caster level of 17?
Yes, just like a 3rd level wizard can create a pearl of power, which has a CL19. The CL sets the DC to make the item and determines how hard it is to dispel, but does not count as a required level. Exceptions to this are called out, like magic weapons and armor, or the Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Ok! thank you for the aswers!
Is it possible to avoid the caster level requirement of a magic item by adding 5 to the item's creation DC?
For example: My 9th level wizard wants to create a Metamagic Rod which has a CL of 17. The standard DC is 22(5+CL). I do not have the appropiate CL so i decide to add 5(27 total) to the DC to create my metamagic rod.
Most of the time, that caster level information is just so you know what caster level the item is, should it become relevant (ie spell penetration).
Very rarely is a CL an actual requirement- the only thing that comes to mind off the bat is the enhancements on magic arms.
Very rarely is a CL an actual requirement- the only thing that comes to mind off the bat is the enhancements on magic arms.
You're fine there too, just increase the DC+5.
There is such a long sad eratta story with all that. It started back in 3.5, there a line of text was in saying you had to be at least the CL of the item - but some say even that was eratta (which I agree with for various reasons). That text made it into the first printing of Pathfinder, then got erattaed out, BUT THEN snuck back in AGAIN in the APG. However, all of that is eratta.
The Bottom line is this:
There are Mandatory Requirements, and non-mandatory requirements.
With Mandatory Requirements, someone involved in the creation must satisfy the requirement (several people can pool their abilities to make an item). These are: The Feat (for all types of items), and also (for specifically spell-trigger and spell-completion items like wands & scrolls, but not other kinds of items) The Spell.
For non-mandetory requirements, you can blow off non-mandatory requirements by adding 5 to the DC, each. These are: Everything that's not The Feat, and (where applicable) The Spell, per above.
See core p.549 (current printing)
So, for example, potion makers can make potions for spells they don't have, since a potion is neither a spell-trigger and spell-completion item. Arms & armor enchanters can make armor and weapons with a higher CL, since those resirements are not one of the enumerated mandatory requirements. All of that just bumps up the DC.
Caster level isn't even a requirement per se for most items. It's only a non-mandetory ever, and only a requirement at all if listed in the requirements entry, or in the rules text related to the item.
If it were a weapon or armor, then yes you would have to add 5 to bypass.
I thought that was a mandatory requirement that you couldn't bypass. If it's not, that changes some of my fundamental assumptions on gearing. Interesting.
Yea, the rule section on p549 is controlling since that creates and defines the distinction between mandetory and non-mandetory. It sets just the Feat (for everything), and the Spell(for specifically spell-trigger and spell-completion items like wands & scrolls). It doesn't enumerate what's non-mandetory, since the construction defines those two things as specifically the "only exceptions" to the 'increase DC by 5 rule if you don't satify the requirement' rule.
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Yea, the rule section on p549 is controlling since that creates and defines the distinction between mandetory and non-mandetory. It sets just the Feat (for everything), and the Spell(for specifically spell-trigger and spell-completion items like wands & scrolls). It doesn't enumerate what's non-mandetory, since the construction defines those two things as specifically the "only exceptions" to the 'increase DC by 5 rule if you don't satify the requirement' rule.
Indeed. Caster level, however, does not fall under any form of requirement unless it's explicitly listed, in which case it falls under "non-mandatory" and can be bypassed. The only mandatory requirements are the item creation feat itself and (if it's a spell completion or spell trigger item) the spell.
Basically: The "requirements" section is both the mandatory and non-mandatory requirements. If it's in that section and it's not one of the two possible mandatory requirements, it can be bypassed. If it's not in the requirements, it isn't needed at all.
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So, for example, potion makers can make potions for spells they don't have, since a potion is neither a spell-trigger and spell-completion item.
This part is not true anymore:
Can a character with Brew Potion create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it? (page 549)
No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.
In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.
—Jason Bulmahn, 07/13/11
But it is true that for most items you can avoid requirements. It can add up, though. A bard player in my Serpent's Skull game wanted to make a headband of mental superiority without knowing any of the stat boost spells - so DC 5+16(CL)+15(missing spells)=DC36 spellcraft check. Pretty tough for a level 7 character to make. She decided to put it off until later.
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So, for example, potion makers can make potions for spells they don't have, since a potion is neither a spell-trigger and spell-completion item.This part is not true anymore:
But it is true that for most items you can avoid requirements. It can add up, though. A bard player in my Serpent's Skull game wanted to make a headband of mental superiority without knowing any of the stat boost spells - so DC 5+16(CL)+15(missing spells)=DC36 spellcraft check. Pretty tough for a level 7 character to make. She decided to put it off until later.Can a character with Brew Potion create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it? (page 549)
No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.
In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.
—Jason Bulmahn, 07/13/11
Does someone else in the party have access to those spells? Because the crafter is allowed to get help for meeting spell requirements. It still might not be enough (if they only know one or two), but it could help.
Ah, so they plugged that.Thanks for the heads up Ryric! But I hate that he opens another can of worms by not just saying "the spell" and instead "without meeting its prerequisites".
That makes it mean that there are no non-mandatory prerequisites for those items. So for example you'd actually have to be lawful to create a staff of defense, whereas a non-lawful crafter could just bump the DC by 5 to make an axiomatic weapon.
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Does someone else in the party have access to those spells? Because the crafter is allowed to get help for meeting spell requirements. It still might not be enough (if they only know one or two), but it could help.
Alas, the party is chock full of spontaneous casters right now. Maybe the magus in the group has them, I'll have to check. Not too familiar with the magus spell list yet.
Also keep in mind that you can take 10 on the spellcraft check. All of a sudden a 9th level wizard with a 24 int (18 base+2race+2levels+2headband) and the appropriate traits can take 10 on anything that's 30 or less without fear of failure and you don't even need a skill focus feat.
+1
So many people blow off/misunderstand/misapply take10/20. Yea, making magic should never be a roll unless you're really pushing it. Just like it says "Cursed items are almost never made intentionally. Instead they are the result of rushed work, inexperienced crafters, or a lack of proper components." i.e. attempts where a 10 on the die wouldn't be enough.
If it were a weapon or armor, then yes you would have to add 5 to bypass.I thought that was a mandatory requirement that you couldn't bypass. If it's not, that changes some of my fundamental assumptions on gearing. Interesting.
It's debatable whether you have the option of adding +5 to the DC when crafting magic weapons and armors, iirc there was a post by Sean saying that they are thinking about it. Until then ask your ST which interpetation he is using, both are valid by RAW.
For what it's worth in my group we go with can't until we get a definite answer.
Mmm. I think there's something wrong with this rule IMHOOne point of interest the original printing (which I have at home) did have one sentence in the magic item creation that stated you could not create items that had a caster level above your current caster level.
It has since been removed by errata.
I personally still stick with that rule because I do not enjoy crafting shenanigans which my players seem to engage in with great gusto.
You know that you don't avoid crafting shenanigans that way right? A lot of items have arbitary CLs (most of them higher than they can be), if you enforce this pre-errata rule you only force your players dig a little deeper and find out that you can actually set the CL of the item they are creating as long as the item's CL isn't lower than the CL needed to cast the spell.