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Disregarding most of the above:
If you're a rogue, you can brag about it.
If you're a ninja then, well...
Ninjas are what rogues should've been.
Since a Ninja can take any Rogue Talent through the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick (page 15) AND any Advanced Rogue Talent through the Advanced Talents Master Trick (page 16), but a Rogue can take ONLY Ninja Tricks through the Ninja Trick Rogue Talent (page 70) but not Master Tricks - since there are no Advanced Talents which grant Master Tricks - I would strongly suggest to 'homebrew' a Master Trick Advanced Talent for Rogues, in order to balance the scales a little more.
Either that, or remove the Advanced Talent Master Trick from the Ninja list.
Regarding your answers, I feel that Ki gives Ninjas a great advantage over Rogues - one of the reasons of the creation of the Ki Pool Rogue Talent (which gives very few Ki Points, compared to a true Ninja).
And a Ninja would greatly benefit from Wakizashi (with which they are proficient) over Short Swords without any doubts - Light Weapon, P or S (instead of P only), Deadly (+4 to the DC of Fort Saves when used to make a Coupe de Grace) AND 18-20 x2 (instead of 19-20 x2).
Just my 2c.
The player in my group that usually plays rogues said with the Ninja there is no reason to play rogues anymore. I'd have to agree, no point in playing rogues now. Sure you give up trap finding but that's not big deal. If it traps are a problem let someone else play an Urban Ranger. I just see the Ninja class putting the rogue class in the dust bin.
This isn't a problem just an observation.
Since a Ninja can take any Rogue Talent through the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick (page 15) AND any Advanced Rogue Talent through the Advanced Talents Master Trick (page 16),
Only somewhat correct.
Advanced Talent can only be taken once, so they can grab a single Master Talent, but not as many as they want.So it's not a huge difference there.
Yes, Wakizashi's are better. However the +4 to coup de grace probably won't be very important alot of times, and the 18-20... well, sneak attack doesn't get multiplied. And to pick up those critical feats, a ninja has to be like level 15 before even qualifying.
So yeah, they're better, but not by alot.
They lose out on trapfinding though, Posion Use is just a waste of space really.
Also by RAW there is not Extra Ninja Trick feat, like there is for rogues (even though I think most GMs will houserule it, or allow them to take the rogue one)
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I asked one of my elder rogue PCs. He just snorted and said, "Ninja are like rogues who can't find the fireball trap, and die when they trigger it, anyways."
It's much easier to build a ranger / rogue PC under most point-buy systems than a ranger / ninja. (What attribute does a ranger / ninja not need?)
I still prefer rogues because I hate to keep track of points of any sort. (I also avoid 1/day powers)
But as many said, the ninja is slightly better, even tough you can make a very decent rogue with the UC.
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I actually prefer rogues with a feat burned for ninja ki. If you're going to be a rogue-type bring trapfinding to the table, and poison use is far worse.
At least, by PFS standards, since none of the "house rule" requests can be honored there. If ninjas start being able to take feats to gain tricks, go that route.
I actually prefer rogues with a feat burned for ninja ki. If you're going to be a rogue-type bring trapfinding to the table, and poison use is far worse.
At least, by PFS standards, since none of the "house rule" requests can be honored there. If ninjas start being able to take feats to gain tricks, go that route.
Well, if you want to be THAT hyperliteral about it, the Ninja IS a rogue. They can use 1 ninja trick to pick up a rogue talent (thus meeting the requirements) and then be able to take any rogue talent they want with the extra rogue talent feat.
Well, if you want to be THAT hyperliteral about it, the Ninja IS a rogue. They can use 1 ninja trick to pick up a rogue talent (thus meeting the requirements) and then be able to take any rogue talent they want with the extra rogue talent feat.I actually prefer rogues with a feat burned for ninja ki. If you're going to be a rogue-type bring trapfinding to the table, and poison use is far worse.
At least, by PFS standards, since none of the "house rule" requests can be honored there. If ninjas start being able to take feats to gain tricks, go that route.
Not so, my friend. I thought like you do, and then looked it up. The prereq for Extra Rogue Talent is not "any rogue talent". Its "Rogue Talent Class Feature". Ninjas don't have the Rogue Talent Class Feature, technically. Even if you take the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick, its still technically a Ninja Trick. Or at least that is a semantic argument that can be made until something is written in the FAQ or for PFS that says otherwise.
Ninjas are what rogues should've been.
I made a ninja and called it a rogue. Re-named the ki pool, so that it's a guile pool.
Problem solved.
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Can we call the Rogue class "Pirate" just for this thread, please?
Can we call the Rogue class "Pirate" just for this thread, please?
I'd be down with that :D
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The player in my group that usually plays rogues said with the Ninja there is no reason to play rogues anymore. I'd have to agree, no point in playing rogues now. Sure you give up trap finding but that's not big deal. If it traps are a problem let someone else play an Urban Ranger. I just see the Ninja class putting the rogue class in the dust bin.
This isn't a problem just an observation.
Ther is a flaw in this arguement - if trapfinding is not a big deal (which I certainly agree with) then even before the Ninja showed up what was the point of playing the Rogue anyway? To feel inferior to the party? To prevent an oversized player group from being too strong?
If you don't care about trapfinding then the Rogue was only played because the player likes the cool concept of a Rogue and prior to the Ninja had no choice but to play a redudant char for the sake of getting to play to his style. The Rogue was in the dustbin before the Ninja, just some die hard fans of the class refused to see him go.
In summary, the Ninja hasn't changed anything for the Rogue. It just gave people the chance to play the type of char they wanted without having to be mechanically crap.
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The player in my group that usually plays rogues said with the Ninja there is no reason to play rogues anymore. I'd have to agree, no point in playing rogues now. Sure you give up trap finding but that's not big deal. If it traps are a problem let someone else play an Urban Ranger. I just see the Ninja class putting the rogue class in the dust bin.
This isn't a problem just an observation.
Ther is a flaw in this arguement - if trapfinding is not a big deal (which I certainly agree with) then even before the Ninja showed up what was the point of playing the Rogue anyway? To feel inferior to the party? To prevent an oversized player group from being too strong?
If you don't care about trapfinding then the Rogue was only played because the player likes the cool concept of a Rogue and prior to the Ninja had no choice but to play a redudant char for the sake of getting to play to his style. The Rogue was in the dustbin before the Ninja, just some die hard fans of the class refused to see him go.
In summary, the Ninja hasn't changed anything for the Rogue. It just gave people the chance to play the type of char they wanted without having to be mechanically crap.
Very true, but with the ninja now present there is absolutely 0 incentive to fix the rogue class, so that's something thats changed i guess
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I kind of think that the Ninja should have its skill points nerfed to add a sense of balance. 6+Int per level seems more than fair, I don't see the reasoning behind a more combat oriented rogue class to have 8+Int per level. I think rogue needs that skill advantage to maintain its flavor.
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The Ninja is more powerful in combat, the Rogue is more versatile out of combat. Most Rogue archetypes don't work with the Ninja, the Ninja does not have a "Extra Ninja Trick" feat. Knifefighter is a great archetype for the Rogue. Are we done yet with the constant "OMG, Ninjas steal Rogues breakfast!" threads?
I kind of think that the Ninja should have its skill points nerfed to add a sense of balance. 6+Int per level seems more than fair, I don't see the reasoning behind a more combat oriented rogue class to have 8+Int per level. I think rogue needs that skill advantage to maintain its flavor.
OMG, Ninjas steal Rogues breakfast!
I kind of think that the Ninja should have its skill points nerfed to add a sense of balance. 6+Int per level seems more than fair, I don't see the reasoning behind a more combat oriented rogue class to have 8+Int per level. I think rogue needs that skill advantage to maintain its flavor.
But really, I don't think it's that the ninja is too good, I think it's that the rogue isn't quite good enough.
Team Designer at Paizo values Evasion a lot more highly than I do, so to them it pretty much works out.