A player in my game wants to make a Cavalier that has a dragon for a mount. It just so happens that there is a nation in my setting that uses dragons for mounts. Is there a Cavalier Archetype out there anywhere that will allow a player to have a dragon mount?
There's the Dragon Rider from SGG. Reports say it's fairly balanced. Not a cavalier, but eh.
There's the Dragon Rider from SGG. Reports say it's fairly balanced. Not a cavalier, but eh.
I looked over it, and it doesn't really sit well with me. I know it doesn't get a lot of abilities, but I think having a full attack bonus and all saves are good just doesn't add up.
Is there a way that you could make a Dragonrider Archetype for the Cavalier?
Why make an archetype? Why not just have him be an Order of the Dragon Cavalier with a Dragon Mount?
Why make an archetype? Why not just have him be an Order of the Dragon Cavalier with a Dragon Mount?
I could do that, but I would have to make stats for the dragons that are used as mounts.
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Would you consider a Large drake instead of a true dragon? You could further flavor your dragonrider with some additional material here and there's two dragon-based cavalier orders in Kobold Quarterly #18 that might fit.
I could do that, but I would have to make stats for the dragons that are used as mounts.Why make an archetype? Why not just have him be an Order of the Dragon Cavalier with a Dragon Mount?
Use the dragonrider mount rules? :)
I should have stated in the OP that there really aren't any "True Dragons" left. I mean, they're there, but they're more a shadow of their former selves. They lost a majority of their power during a war, they've been unable to tap into the arcane power they once had. Their arcane power can only be seen through those mortals that were born into the draconic bloodline ages ago.
But anyway, I'm going to give it more thought. I wish I had the money to get the Kobold Quarterly and the book about Drakes, but sadly I be poor.
Dragonne? They are from the bonus bestiary and were originally meant to be animal companions, but was changed to not be at the last moment. They have stats tho. You can download the bonus bestiary at Paizo.com.
I should have stated in the OP that there really aren't any "True Dragons" left. I mean, they're there, but they're more a shadow of their former selves. They lost a majority of their power during a war, they've been unable to tap into the arcane power they once had. Their arcane power can only be seen through those mortals that were born into the draconic bloodline ages ago.
That complicates things quite a bit. Your PC is essentially asking to be able to ride a "true dragon" into combat and mortal danger in a world where "true dragons" are essentially on the verge of going extinct (a proposal that even a metallic true dragon would find dubious [it would probably want to focus on replenishing it's race rather than pit it's scales, fangs, and claws against mortal steel).
Also there's the fact that your PC is gonna be riding something that probably caused a lot of damage in your campaign setting's world due to this "war" that you mentioned. People might not take kindly to your PC or his "friend" of a mount. However, if you want a dragon mount then I'd recommend the following:
Your PC will need a mount or special mount ability (either Cavalier or Paladin will do I think).
Use the youngest Large sized category of chromatic, metallic, or primal Dragon (note: A DRAGON IS NOT A HORSE! IT SHOULD RESENT being treated as a beast of burden and while a metallic dragon MIGHT settle for being a COMPANION in the PC's adventuring company a chromatic dragon is going to despise the character if he shows any hint of either cruelty towards it or weakness in any fashion [as for Primal Dragons, well, Lava Dragons probably can't be relied on whatsoever for mounts, Cloud Dragons are too solitary and aloof, Brine Dragons prefer water over land, and Umbral Dragons are just down right sinister {and will betray the character as soon as doing so gives them something in return}]).
Treat the PC's mount or special mount ability as a Druid's Animal Companion ability of 1/3rd your character's total Cavalier or Paladin level (rounded down).
That's my two cents. Please emphasize to your PC that a Dragon IS NOT A HORSE! It is a armor plated, swords for teeth, daggers for fingers, fire-breathing, hyper intelligent, KILLING MACHINE and does not stand for being treated as something a mere human can tell what to do whenever the human wants.
Why does that one nation use dragons as mounts? What do dragons get out of it? The SGG dragonrider has a nice fluff for that, and I really do think that's the best option here. Getting the dragon to do anything but move takes a standard action, so the combination of full BAB + dragon (+good saves, like a paladin. Who also gets full BAB, might I add) isn't so bad.
The way I see it, the Dragonrider is a paladin that trades being awesome in combat with having an awesome mount. An awesome mount that requires an expensive action to get them to do anything other than move around.
One thing I recommend is NOT treating them as lower level (especially by using fractions!). They'll be extremely frail.
I looked over it, and it doesn't really sit well with me. I know it doesn't get a lot of abilities, but I think having a full attack bonus and all saves are good just doesn't add up.
Just commenting on this. Normally Low starting gold, alignment limited classes are extremely well... if you don't like Full Attack Bonus with all saves are to big, make sure you don't allow paladin's. Of course, you could always house rule that that class has one step lower for their BAB.
But just a thought, but why not give them a Summoning like Summoners have? Make it so, with "evolution points" they can advance their mount to be more dragon like? Or make a predetermined base for them so they don't get to wild with a dragon that has no wings, tenticals, and all that. Just make sure it has the basics and you are set (let him choose somethings, because a two headed dragon is all reasonible, just don't let it get out of hand in ways where he has like 20 tenticals or something? lol)
Just my thought, I'm about to post my Blackpowder Alchemist, but I wish you luck on your campain ^^
+~edit~+
wait... I know there was a class with perfect saves and perfect BAB in my book... Did Paladin get errata'ed or is my book a typo?
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There's the Dragon Rider from SGG. Reports say it's fairly balanced. Not a cavalier, but eh.I beg to disagree, it's a horribly unbalanced class. Fighter BAB, Monk saves, and sorcerer spellcasting with full ARMORED spellcasting access to the wizard spell list. And that's before you throw in a class mount that not outweighs all other class mounts combined, but is supposed to be one of the more feared monsters in the Bestiary. It's a class that essentially obsoletes every other class in the game.
I think people aren't actually looking at the stats of the dragons. The devil is in the details, my friend.
These aren't normal dragons. These are sucktackular versions of dragons that eventually grow so large that they can't go in small spaces. The powerful ones take a standard action (from the rider) all the way up to 8th level just to do anything but move around. Then it's a move action until level 16.
These dragons are just a step better than most animal companions (a lion will still do a lot better, since it can go more places, has pounce (!!!), and your druid can make it fly with spells). And the only class abilities that Dragonriders get other than a dragon are 3 bonus feats and sense upgrades. Well, and spell resistance, very late in the game.
They kinda need good saves, HD, BAB, and mediocre spell casting to help them out, especially for when the dragon can't go in places. Take away the dragon, and they're pretty boring.
Also, they can only cast spells in LIGHT ARMOR. Just like a bard. Not Full Plate.
Like any other arcane spellcaster, a dragonrider wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
The war that lead to the True Dragons losing most of their power was not with man kind persay. It was a war with Giants and Outsiders, ages before the rise of mortal nations, and the Undead War. The war with Giants is when the dragon population fell drastically, the war with the Outsider invasion is were the dragons arcane power took a pretty good hit. It wasn't until The Undead War that the dragons' power was dwindling quickly. They found it harder to tap into their arcane power and fled back to their homeland of Zarcona.
The humans in Zarcona were split into two kingdoms, The Onyx Court and The Crystal Flame. The Onyx Court saw this time to capture the dragons to use as slaves and weapons, while The Crystal Flame set up a pact with the some dragons to help them reclaim their arcane power.
This is a rough summery of how the dragons started to loose their power and why the nation uses dragons as mounts.
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I've read your post. Multiple times. I really do not understand how you think that without the mount it's overpowered. Or even with it. I'm not even sure that you've read the class. You already said you thought they could cast in full armor, which is patently not true.
Ok, so let's ignore the dragon mount. What about the class do you find unbalanced? Strip off every single one of the abilities specifically related to the dragon mount. That leaves us Resist Energy, the improvements to senses, and spell resistance. Also the form of the dragon.
So they get full BAB, d10 hit die, the ability to cast weak sorcerer spells in light armor, and great saves. And pretty much nothing else other than some circumstantial defenses, and good senses. You honestly think that obsoletes all other classes? That's what you said a few posts ago.
Rogues are seen as sucking because of their inability to stand toe to toe with enemies due to the light armor they wear. They'll have, on average, one less HP per level than a dragonrider, but get sneak attack, a decent way to boost damage when the circumstances are correct. What does the dragonrider get to boost their damage? Oh. Nothing. Hmm...
They get no offensive abilities. Just defensive. Just look at all the other full BAB classes. Fighters get amazing damage and to-hit abilities. Paladins can absolutely tear through evil creatures. Rangers can hit very hard against a few enemies and can switch hit. Barbarians just destroy stuff. Dragonriders without their mounts...do nothing. Paladins can probably even outlast them since they get phenomenal saves, and can wear heavy armor. Dragonriders can wear light armor. That means they can't stand toe-to-toe with enemies and expect to survive for long, saves be damned.
Without their mounts, they're weak. Are the mounts better than most Animal Companions? Yes. Of course. They are freaking dragons. And that's basically everything the class is about. The dragon. Lions are about equal to the power of the dragons, other than the flying part. And that's fixable. They might even be more powerful, since at most a dragon is going to So it's fine for a Druid to be a full caster, lots of other great abilities, and have a lion?
And your view on 3rd party being about wish fulfillment and not caring about balance is laughably uninformed. If they were always so overpowered, people wouldn't be able to get their GMs to allow it. And then they would never sell. If anything, the need to balance is even stronger for 3rd parties, for that very reason. They can't rely on being Paizo to sell stuff.
Hell, even SKR is on the record for saying that SGG's stuff is balanced.
In short, I really do not understand at all how you can think this class is unbalanced. ESPECIALLY how you can think that even without the dragon mount that they are overpowered. As I said, the devil is in the details. Just glancing over the class will make one think its overpowered, and I know that's what I thought when I first glanced it over. But when I actually went back and read it closely, it became crystal clear just how wrong I was before.
Spyder, what did you end up doing? Another option that could work would be have him make a dragon eidolon, and ride that around. Have him swap out the ability to use Summon Monster as a SLA for Tactician or whatever other aspects of the cavalier he wants. He'll even get some nifty spells then, but will still have the crappy light armor.
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I've read your post. Multiple times. I really do not understand how you think that without the mount it's overpowered. Or even with it. I'm not even sure that you've read the class. You already said you thought they could cast in full armor, which is patently not true.
Ok, so let's ignore the dragon mount. What about the class do you find unbalanced? Strip off every single one of the abilities specifically related to the dragon mount. That leaves us Resist Energy, the improvements to senses, and spell resistance. Also the form of the dragon.
So they get full BAB, d10 hit die, the ability to cast weak sorcerer spells in light armor, and great saves. And pretty much nothing else other than some circumstantial defenses, and good senses. You honestly think that obsoletes all other classes? That's what you said a few posts ago.
Rogues are seen as sucking because of their inability to stand toe to toe with enemies due to the light armor they wear. They'll have, on average, one less HP per level than a dragonrider, but get sneak attack, a decent way to boost damage when the circumstances are correct. What does the dragonrider get to boost their damage? Oh. Nothing. Hmm...
They get no offensive abilities. Just defensive. Just look at all the other full BAB classes. Fighters get amazing damage and to-hit abilities. Paladins can absolutely tear through evil creatures. Rangers can hit very hard against a few enemies and can switch hit. Barbarians just destroy stuff. Dragonriders without their mounts...do nothing. Paladins can probably even outlast them since they get phenomenal saves, and can wear heavy armor. Dragonriders can wear light armor. That means they can't stand toe-to-toe with enemies and expect to survive for long, saves be damned.
Without their mounts, they're weak. Are the mounts better than most Animal Companions? Yes. Of course. They are freaking dragons. And that's basically everything the class is about. The dragon. Lions are about equal to the power of the dragons, other than the flying...
I second Cheapy on this one, it doesn't seem any more OP than any other Pathfinder class. Go for it.
Sorry for the late post. Classes started today so I'll be busy a lot of the time with that.
I think I'm going to use SGG's Dragonrider, but I'm going to tweak it a little. I don't think they should be spell casters. Thinking back to The Dragondriers of Pern series, I don't remember any of the characters being spell casters. I could be wrong, though, I haven't read them since elementary school. I'm going to look over the Dragonrider and the Cavalier again and post some ideas. I want to thank everyone who posted on this thread. It might not seem like it, but it has helped me quite a bit.
Edit: I want to state this now, which I should have a while ago, dragon's don't have the alignments they have in the Bestiary. There are good chromatic dragons just as there are evil metallic dragons. Their attitude depends on the creature they're dealing with. As with the two kingdoms in Zarcona, the dragons show hatred towards any creature bearing the symbol of The Onyx Court (even those that are enslaved) and are friendly to creatures bearing the mark of The Crystal Flame. To all other creatures they are indifferent, unless the dragons feel that they're being threatened.
I think the reason that the Dragonrider gets arcane spells is because dragons oftentimes have their source of power being arcane.
If the player is a part of the Crystal Flame, being able to cast spells would make sense. If he's a part of the Onyx court, not being able to cast spells makes a ton of sense.
Sounds like an awesome chance to customize something to fit your world :)
I added to my last post.
Using the stats for a Roc companion sounds like a great idea. What I would do is allow the dragon to have the breath weapon (not as good as it would be if it was without a rider), be able to fly (limiting the speed and maneuverability of course), maybe increase the STR so it could hold the rider, and make a separate chart so that the dragon could increase his abilities and gain more dragon powers. Thinking about it, I wouldn't mind the Dragonrider to be a spell caster. I would like for them to be able to cast spells in heavy armor, but as it advances in level the arcane armor penalty lessens.
That is pretty much all I have so far.
I forgot that a quadruped's STR carrying capacity was multiplied by 1.5. I do like the Strong Back feature you suggested, so that will be used. Still trying to decide how the dragon is going to advance is abilities as it levels up.
One thing brought up elsewhere is that you can just force the character to multiclass out of Dragonrider before they get spells.
For a dragonrider multiclassing into cavalier, sacrificing the cavalier’s mount ability increases the draconic steed’s level by a number equal to the character’s cavalier level –2, with a minimum of +1 draconic steed level.
Maybe work up a feat to let Summon Steed's uses per day stacking with cavalier levels.
I'm just saying the Dragonrider because it's less work. Mok's suggestions are great as well.
I just thought of something. I'm going rewrite the fluff to say that those who have enslaved dragons as mounts inbred the dragons to make perfect obedient mounts. Those who have made pacts with the dragons were given a special clutch of eggs that were perfect for mounts. So far I have decided to call these dragons, Draaks. So they will start out with animal-level intelligence. Their alignment will be reflected by their rider, since that is who the Draak will be interacting with.
Figured i'd take a shot at it. I designed an animal companion called the riding drake, and a prestige class for 'awakening' more of the dragony bits.
In either case the fluff concept is that the dragon that the character would have is a domesticated dragon, who's a bit less intelligent than a true dragon, and like other domesticated creatures, has softened a bit to be more workable with humanoids. Thus they aren't tricked out with all the elements that come with true dragons.
Yep, that is what I want to do. As the dragonrider advances in levels the Draak will will gain more abilities of True Dragons, but they'll never be True Dragons. Also, the biggest they'll get will be large size.
Figured i'd take a shot at it. I designed an animal companion called the riding drake, and a prestige class for 'awakening' more of the dragony bits.
I'm downloading the document now.
I have to say I myself would not allow the dragon rider class. The dragon is to good and mixed with the class {way,way o good with the mount) I would ban it.
The issue is both size and power of said mount. Its well above the power of any current mount (barring maybe an eldion) and even if ya count an Edilon its way tougher at low levels.
2 d12 HD, breath weapon ,all good saves, full BAB, flight, immunity's, 3 attacks..hell yes its better then any mount ever.
I have to agree with the poster that called it a Mary sue class as it is. It simply is not balanced in any sense of the word.
holy baloney. i just took a look at it (that first one)...like hell that class will ever be allowed.
Oh man, you guys never fail to amuse me. I will simply say that comparing the dragons to other animal companions / mount is a stupid thing to do. In all other classes, those are secondary or tertiary class features. For the dragonrider, it's the main class feature. Of course it's going to be powerful, and without the dragon, the dragonrider is really weak and can't do much of anything. You are more than welcome to read my posts above on why it is balanced.
Now on to default's version...
Fly speed of the Riding Drake should probably be clumsy.
Reach needs to be 10' to match the size.
There's some wonkiness between the table and the description.
Ride shouldn't need 6 ranks, only 5. Otherwise people with this class will never be able to get all 14 levels.
Powerful Bite adds 2*str mod to damage, not 1.5x. When making new stuff, you generally want to either keep it the same, or make it way different.
The +hp mechanics of Powerful Drake are bad. It sounds like a one time deal, which is where the badness comes from.
Getting low-light vision at level 13-14 is uh....really late. Really, really late.
I like the idea of Ferocious Cooperation. Not entirely sure about the take-10 thing, but I like that it lasts.
All in all, the class and the mount seem weak. What does the Drake Rider get? An average animal companion and a few defensive / sensory enhancements. Ok...so at least Challenge increases. Other than that, you don't get much in the way of offense.
It's also really weird that this is best for Paladins. You mean I can get Smite Evil, a better mount than a horse, Challenge, an Order (!!!), add my charisma mod to saves, potentially (with Shining Knight archetype) add my charisma mod to saves, cast a few spells (most notably Hero's Defiance, which'll heal for 3d6 damage when you drop <0), etc? Why would I ever be a cavalier before going in here. The ability to give a teamwork feat as a standard action once per day? Hmm....
it only stacks with smite power, so you only get 2/day
and the bite thing was the dragon version. did that have a different name?
the hp for powerful is supposed to be like toughness, only you and the drake split the HP
class should be your 7th level. 6 to qualify + 14 prestige.
true about the low-light, but thats what critiques are for, right?
the take 10 means they automatically succeed. (take 10 is vs AC 10)
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I know the OP said he couldn't afford the Book of Drakes, but I've gotta say it again. Much of making this concept work really well could be solved with the book. I know I risk tooting my own horn here, but I agonized over a chapter in the book where I provide a system for folks to make their own drake using a sort-of-point-buy system. It helps keep the critter in line with level balance and CR issues while still providing a ton of customization (and guidelines for further customization by the GM or player).
I was a bit too hasty in my reply...
You're right, math fail on my part.
Ignore the part about Reach....
And the Powerful Bite thing. Apparently it's in Universal Monster Rules that dragons add 1.5 to bite. Strange that the T-Rex adds 2*mStr.
Is the Powerful supposed to be "at the time you take this feat, gain HP equal to your level, split evenly between you and your mount."? What happens if you do it at level 7? Who gets 4 HP, and who gets 3?
Also, the Paladin could turn his LoHs into smites, and the celestial template will give the drake a Smite.
I guess my main complaint is that the Paladin gets so much more out of this PrC than the class that it was meant for. That and the lack of offensive capabilities other than Challenge.
The SGG Dragonrider took the idea that the focus was the mount. That's why the mount is so powerful, and the base class is well...not. The Drake Rider's mount is ... just a mount. An unusual one, but not a super powerful one. For that reason, I think the offensive capabilities of the PrC need to be boosted, and perhaps restricted to *just* Cavaliers.
IMO, It's at the point where it's too weak for cavaliers but really good (although not overpowered) for Paladins.
I'll post some possible fixes tomorrow.
Alright. Cleaned it up some. Check the changelog!
I know the OP said he couldn't afford the Book of Drakes, but I've gotta say it again. Much of making this concept work really well could be solved with the book. I know I risk tooting my own horn here, but I agonized over a chapter in the book where I provide a system for folks to make their own drake using a sort-of-point-buy system. It helps keep the critter in line with level balance and CR issues while still providing a ton of customization (and guidelines for further customization by the GM or player).
Indeed , A most excellent book. Off the top of my head I would make an archetype.
Rough idea
At 1st level a drake bound caviler gains draconic as a free language.
Banner (Ex)
A Drake bound cavalier’s banner is a symbol of inspiration to his allies and companions. As long as the Drake bound cavalier’s banner is clearly visible, all allies within 60 feet receive a +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made as part of a charge. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, these bonuses increase by +1. The banner must be at least Small or larger and must be carried or displayed by the cavalier or his mount to function.
This replaces the cavilers mount.
Dragon Friend (Ex): A drake bound caviler knows how to deal with all types of dragons, adding half her drake tamer level (minimum 1) to ll Charisma-based skill checks when interacting with creatures of the dragon type.
This replaces expert training.
Drake Companion (Ex):
At 5th level, the Drake bound cavalier gains a drake companion. This drake is a Medium drake {if the caviler is small) or if the caviler is medium a large drake with the young templet(the templet is removed when the caviler gains 6th level in this class.) with 15 feature points. This mount has a d12 HD, all good saves, 6+int skills per level, dragon traits and and advances as the edilion chart with the caviler level standing in for summoner level.The drake does not gain evolution points or the share spells ability. The Drake does however gains 5 new feature points per each new caviler level.
This replaces the standard Caviler banner
I have to say I myself would not allow the dragon rider class. The dragon is to good and mixed with the class {way,way o good with the mount) I would ban it.
The issue is both size and power of said mount. Its well above the power of any current mount (barring maybe an eldion) and even if ya count an Edilon its way tougher at low levels.
2 d12 HD, breath weapon ,all good saves, full BAB, flight, immunity's, 3 attacks..hell yes its better then any mount ever.
I have to agree with the poster that called it a Mary sue class as it is. It simply is not balanced in any sense of the word.
Compare it to the druid AND its big cat companion. Because the dragon rider has to spend a standard action in order for the dragon to get more then a move action on it's turn. Compariing it to any single pet is not a valid comparison. Seriously people, read the whole class before claiming a lack of balance.
The reality is in play it is in fact quite balanced. The players I have seen use it dont even take the most powerful dragons because its too long before you can focus fast enough for it to get actions. Not to mention the ever menacing presense of the 5ft wide hallway/doorway.
For the plays i've actually seen it, the dragon was essentially a flying archery platform and little more at lower levels. At high levels it opens up more, but compared to what a druid or a summoner can do at that level, it is hardly unbalanced.
I have to say I myself would not allow the dragon rider class. The dragon is to good and mixed with the class {way,way o good with the mount) I would ban it.
The issue is both size and power of said mount. Its well above the power of any current mount (barring maybe an eldion) and even if ya count an Edilon its way tougher at low levels.
2 d12 HD, breath weapon ,all good saves, full BAB, flight, immunity's, 3 attacks..hell yes its better then any mount ever.
I have to agree with the poster that called it a Mary sue class as it is. It simply is not balanced in any sense of the word.
Compare it to the druid AND its big cat companion. Because the dragon rider has to spend a standard action in order for the dragon to get more then a move action on it's turn. Compariing it to any single pet is not a valid comparison. Seriously people, read the whole class before claiming a lack of balance.
The reality is in play it is in fact quite balanced. The players I have seen use it dont even take the most powerful dragons because its too long before you can focus fast enough for it to get actions. Not to mention the ever menacing presense of the 5ft wide hallway/doorway.
For the plays i've actually seen it, the dragon was essentially a flying archery platform and little more at lower levels. At high levels it opens up more, but compared to what a druid or a summoner can do at that level, it is hardly unbalanced.
Thank you. It's a subtle class. I haven't seen a single person (myself included!) that didn't think it was overpowered at first glance.
Spyder, Default:
What do you want from the class? Do you want the main focus to be the rider, or the dragon? The Dragonrider takes the view that the main focus is the dragon. The Drake Rider is kind of a mix between the two, but erring towards the dragon.
Looking thru the updated version, it's a lot better. I would recommend not forcing a feat to get the use of Smite Evil, but rather have a catchall feature called "Continuing Training" which advances Order abilities or Lay on Hands (including Mercies?). Then another catchall that advances either Smite or Challenge.
Paladin is still a better lead in, but that's just because the Paladin is a better class than the cavalier.
Also, Will save should be good, and reflex bad. Dragons are very strong willed. They suck at dodging fireballs.
I would also give the dragon a spell-like ability, based on the element chosen. Say twice per day, and not necessarily related to damage. This will buff up the dragon a bit, setting it clearly above other animal companions.
The Draconic Bloodline has a class skill of Perception, so perhaps the Drake Rider should as well.
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Knowing that some of my players frequent this site, I feel compelled to say that I would never allow a dragon to be mounted.
That being said, the PCs are invited to ride inside any dragon of their choosing...
I am still gonna have to disagree, the mount is very unbalanced as is the class tied to said mount. It is simply hands down the best mount on top of being allowed to ride one of your size. It is simply far to good. If you guys think otherwise, well good gaming to you, but I'll never allow it in any game I run.
Also using the druid as a bar to measure power is the wrong way to do so. The druid is an anomaly, an unbalanced high end , and over powered class as it stands .All you get is another unbalanced, broken class by using it as the standard when it simply is not the standard.
I am still gonna have to disagree, the mount is very unbalanced as is the class tied to said mount. It is simply hands down the best mount on top of being allowed to ride one of your size. It is simply far to good.
And the druid is also broken, using it as a bar to measure power is the wrong way to do so. All you get is another unbalanced, broken class.
Yea, and the mount is the only real thing they have going for them.
Of course it's going to be powerful and the best mount.
Well, except for when you have to go through small spaces, or go inside a castle, or fight in a building, or do anything in any place that won't fit a gargantuan mount.
I truly do not understand how people can't see that the dragon is the main point of the class and how without it, the character is really weak. They get NO offensive capabilities outside of their dragon.
Comparing these to other mounts and animal companions is silly at best. Those are all secondary class features. The dragon mount is *the* class feature.
How is the dragonrider without a mount unbalanced? A lightly armored fighter that gets crappy spellcasting, some resistances, good saves, some sensory improvements, and absolutely no offensive capabilities is too powerful?
By saying the class without the dragon is too good is saying it's better than fighters, rangers, and paladins. How exactly is that the case? Paladins can wear full armor, have amazing saves, can cast spells, and have very powerful offensive capabilities.
Fighters can do ridiculous damage without even trying and can wear heavy armor. Plus, they're supremely customizable due to all the feats they get.
Rangers can switch hit better than anyone in the game, making them extremely good. They get a nice flanking buddy, and they can do huge amounts of damage in the right conditions.
Dragonriders? They can stay in battle for a little bit, hoping their Mirror Image that is the core of their defenses (that chainmail won't cut it. Ever.) won't go down. They can make more saves than other classes can. Oh, and they can see in the dark. Yay?
I'd really appreciate someone giving actual reasons for why they view them as overpowered as compared to other classes. Right now, it's just everyone saying "I don't feel it's balanced" and "The mount is too powerful compared to all other companions [except maybe the eidolon]".
These guys are just Paladins that give up offensive capabilities and supreme durability to get a really good mount.
I am still gonna have to disagree, the mount is very unbalanced as is the class tied to said mount. It is simply hands down the best mount on top of being allowed to ride one of your size. It is simply far to good. If you guys think otherwise, well good gaming to you, but I'll never allow it in any game I run.
Also using the druid as a bar to measure power is the wrong way to do so. The druid is an anomaly, an unbalanced high end , and over powered class as it stands .All you get is another unbalanced, broken class by using it as the standard when it simply is not the standard.
Comparing it to the core class it most closely resembles is in fact the right way to measure power. You have a ludicrous notion of balance if you feel that within the range of the core material is not balanced. Nothing will be balanced with everything in the game, it will be more or less powerful then some things. But there is a range. And if that acceptable range for you is not what exists in the core 11 classes then you really dont have ground to stand on in terms of a relative power discussion.
You are taking very specific things and latching on to them and saying well this thing is better then ONE other thing in the game so therefore the entire class is unbalanced, without looking at the class as whole and taking into account what it can do when compared to other comparable classes. That in fact is the wrong way to measure balance. I dont measure a single bonus feat against rage. I measure the barbarian against the fighter. If you are not able to do that, you shouldn't be talking about balance.
I'd use the Beast Master Cavalier. I'd do up an animal companion for a Drake to be selected at 4th level. At 7th or later I'd allow the Leadership feat to be taken to make a Dragon the players cohort. Then I'd do up a base animal companion for the type of dragon giving a it better base stats of dragon due to also being a cohort.
Any way you slice it though it will be unbalanced. If you want more balance keep it as a drake. A drake works well if you convert it to animal companion using the Pteranodon as template. I've done it for a game just don't have it handy or I'd post it here.
Comparing it to the core class it most closely resembles is in fact the right way to measure power. You have a ludicrous notion of balance if you feel that within the range of the core material is not balanced. Nothing will be balanced with everything in the game, it will be more or less powerful then some things. But there is a range. And if that acceptable range for you is not what exists in the core 11 classes then you really dont have ground to stand on in terms of a relative power discussion.
It is not the core classes, it is people using the druid as a measuring stick for balance. You simply do not use one of the most powerful ( many think well over powered) classes as a bar you aim at. In this case the druid and the most optimized pet was used as the bar for if something was over powered as it was not as good as the druid with the large cat. Almost every class is not as good as the druid with the large cat..it is not a measuring stick, it is an anomaly.
As this class runs closer to classes like the caviler that should be your ruler, not a full caster with the most optimized pet. If you keep your bar as (its not as strong as the druid with a large cat so its weak) then you have large flaw in how you balance things.
If you as GM allow it or have a GM that will..well good for you. I simply will not.