Many of the people I have gamed with see clerics as too weak a class to mess with, yet want SOMEONE to run one so that their blood and guts fighters can be healed. I have run several clerics over the years and must disagree. I have found that clerics can be every bit as effective as combat characters AND healers.
Opinions.....?
Many of the people I have gamed with see clerics as too weak a class to mess with, yet want SOMEONE to run one so that their blood and guts fighters can be healed. I have run several clerics over the years and must disagree. I have found that clerics can be every bit as effective as combat characters AND healers.
Opinions.....?
wait...clerics weak? GWAH? Are these people looking at the same 3.x clerics as I am?
Clerics are one of the most capable classes in the game. There is a reason why they are always listed in 'tier 1'. Anyone who things clerics in general are weak is clearly doing it wrong because it doesnt take a lot of work to make them badass.
If clerics are so weak, why are people always running to them asking for the cleric to put their pancreas, kidneys, and spleen back into place after they got displaced by some dragon's claws?
Smart comments aside, clerics are just fine. With a little prep, they can wade into battle as very effective melee combatants. They make fine archers. And in either case, they can still heal when needed. There's a reason why the term 'CoDzilla' existed in 3.5, and that the 'C' stood for 'cleric'.
Any class can seem weak if it's played in a manner that works against its strengths or if the character in question lacks a particular focus in its suite of abilities. Those blood and guts warriors wouldn't do well if all their feats were tied up in Skill Focus and Weapon Focus, now would they?
|
They can be effective characters. No argument there.
My only gripe is that their even levels are boring: All they get is an extra spell slot per day and, once or twice, a second domain ability. I often wonder why they put the channel energy ability at odd levels when those are the levels clerics get spells.
Basically, clerics have three things: Domains, spells and channeling. Domains have one ability at 1st, and one at an even level (2 things at even levels total). Spells and channeling get non-trivial upgrades at odd levels. So the only things that clerics get at even levels (as far as class specific stuff goes) is a domain ability, and only on 2 of their 10 even levels.
Because feats are also odd levels, these blanks get accentuation and feel very boring in comparison to other classes, which generally get some kind of "talent" or other feature at even levels.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm playing a Cleric of Knowledge & Trickery, and the party lives in my shadow. Domains give me mastery of subterfuge and deception, and with one casting of Divine Power, I'm in front with my full BAB and STR 20, rocking the house (I have the Power Attack feat).
Clerics are revoltingly powerful when used properly. They can tank as good as a Fighter with 1-2 rounds of prep (Divine Power FTW), and rule the fight with battlefield control and buffs/debuffs with Wizard-like effectiveness.
They're pretty weak as blasters, but "oh noes".
Clerics are far from weak. They get full spell progression, decent attack bonus and good saves. They can self buff and on occasion heal a whimpering fighter to prevent him from dieing. They even have more spells per level than most casters thanks to Domanins. Weak, I think not, that said they don't have a great attack bonus and they have to balance their casting stat with Str, Dex, and Con. Then again monks have to do that too, but monks can't cast spells.
I'm playing a Cleric of Knowledge & Trickery, and the party lives in my shadow. Domains give me mastery of subterfuge and deception, and with one casting of Divine Power, I'm in front with my full BAB and STR 20, rocking the house (I have the Power Attack feat).
Clerics are revoltingly powerful when used properly. They can tank as good as a Fighter with 1-2 rounds of prep (Divine Power FTW), and rule the fight with battlefield control and buffs/debuffs with Wizard-like effectiveness.
They're pretty weak as blasters, but "oh noes".
not sure if that is what you meant, but you realize divine power doesn't give full BAB anymore ? still a very good spell by the way.
|
|
Clerics are far from weak. They get full spell progression, decent attack bonus and good saves. They can self buff and on occasion heal a whimpering fighter to prevent him from dieing. They even have more spells per level than most casters thanks to Domanins. Weak, I think not, that said they don't have a great attack bonus and they have to balance their casting stat with Str, Dex, and Con. Then again monks have to do that too, but monks can't cast spells.
To be fair, those extra spell slots are exactly too flexible.
Anyway, I would (personally) never argue that clerics are weak. They are definitely not. But do they get dead levels? Oh hell yes they do, 8 of them. One of which is the first level-up they ever receive (2nd level).
with one casting of Divine Power, I'm in front with my full BAB and STR 20,
Clerics are probably pretty good if you are still playing 3.5e, yeah >>
They're only weak if you're playing them as healbots. Just SOD or SOS the enemy to death and consider it "pro active healing" its more effective
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I'll echo the "if the cleric is weak, you're doing it wrong" sentiment. It's also been my observation that the cleric is one of the most amazingly flexible classes in the Core. Between the variety of spells (healing, buffs, attack/control), the variety of domain powers, and the weapon/armor proficiency and 3/4 BAB, you can build them to be almost anything.
Give them stats like a fighter (18 STR, 12 WIS) and have them cast buffs before charging into the fray.
Give them stats like an archer (18 DEX, Precise Shot) and take domains that let them shoot rays of fire, lightning, etc.
Max out the WIS for an epic caster who never fails a will save.
Just about the only thing they can't do is be a skill monkey.
They can be effective characters. No argument there.
My only gripe is that their even levels are boring.
I give you boring, but as a GM I have only seen great power and feats of heroism from the Clerics, and I am very strict with "keeping good with what your God wants". I mention them that at any moment I can remove all their powers if they break faith or anger their deity.
Still, Clerics rise to legend. They have a myriad of ways of doing things, and are blessed with a lot of great carry on features.
Solid Hp, BAB, 2 good Saves.
Skills: Shafted with bad progression, but very solid class skills for roleplay.
Plus Domains and Spells and spontaneous Cures. And Channel Energy.
What's the downside?
...
You tell me...
|
I will echo that clerics are amazing, both as domain-splash and as solo classes. I do agree that, perhaps unlike every other class, they get everything at odd levels and nothing at even levels. My PFS guy just leveled to 2 and I realized "wow, I got... a BAB". But minor gripe aside, a well-built cleric is still one of the most powerful classes avail.
with one casting of Divine Power, I'm in front with my full BAB and STR 20,Clerics are probably pretty good if you are still playing 3.5e, yeah >>
Well, the buffed Divine Power in PF, so I doubt they got any weaker. :p
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I will echo that clerics are amazing, both as domain-splash and as solo classes. I do agree that, perhaps unlike every other class, they get everything at odd levels and nothing at even levels. My PFS guy just leveled to 2 and I realized "wow, I got... a BAB". But minor gripe aside, a well-built cleric is still one of the most powerful classes avail.
This is why I proposed a house rule to modify their channeling, giving you a little something at the even levels.
reads Divine Power
ACK!!!!
Wow, my bad.
Actually... that's ... situationally better.
12th level Cleric... +4 to hit... and with a Belt of Strength, it stacks and...
Okay. I can live with that.
Better tell my GM.
I find Cleric to be one of the most powerful classes. They are better than Wizards powerwise. Compare the two. Same spell progression is about it. The Cleric get 2 domains to the Wizard 1 school. Granted the School powers are little better in most cases. The Cleric gets 3/4 BAB and 1D8 hit dice comapared to the Wizards 1/2 BAB and 1D6 hit dice. The cleric get channel energy compared the wizards couple bonus feats and arcane bond. The Cleric can cast in armor and get heavy armor with a feat while the wizard is severly restricted in armor use. The Cleric gets 2 good save to the Wizard 1 good save. They both get the same skills per level but the wizard come out ahead in class skills wise with Knowledge skills.
So seems to me the only thing wizard is better at is skills. With Int as thier core stat and 16 class skills they come out ahead but still fall short of skill monkey due to lacking class skills.
Of couse some would argue that Wizard spells are more powerful but I don't find that to be true. It was in 2E days but not so much now.
I find Cleric to be one of the most powerful classes. They are better than Wizards powerwise. Compare the two. Same spell progression is about it. The Cleric get 2 domains to the Wizard 1 school. Granted the School powers are little better in most cases. The Cleric gets 3/4 BAB and 1D8 hit dice comapared to the Wizards 1/2 BAB and 1D6 hit dice. The cleric get channel energy compared the wizards couple bonus feats and arcane bond. The Cleric can cast in armor and get heavy armor with a feat while the wizard is severly restricted in armor use. The Cleric gets 2 good save to the Wizard 1 good save. They both get the same skills per level but the wizard come out ahead in class skills wise with Knowledge skills.
So seems to me the only thing wizard is better at is skills. With Int as thier core stat and 16 class skills they come out ahead but still fall short of skill monkey due to lacking class skills.
Of couse some would argue that Wizard spells are more powerful but I don't find that to be true. It was in 2E days but not so much now.
How exactly are arcane spells *not* better than divine spells in almost every way? Sure, clerics are better at healing and can self-buff better (which they basically need to do in combat), but arcane spells are better for pretty much everything else. Battlefield control, SoDs, SoSs, blasting, utility, etc.
In Pathfinder, to be brutally honest, there are no weak characters. There are weak players.
A cleric can be a GOD amid the battle field, or he can be a lousy healbot that is bored and useless. It is all in the player, not the class.
Rogue :)
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rogue :)In Pathfinder, to be brutally honest, there are no weak characters. There are weak players.
A cleric can be a GOD amid the battle field, or he can be a lousy healbot that is bored and useless. It is all in the player, not the class.
"It's the player" still stands. Guess you'd better brush up. ;)
The existence of this thread amuses me. I still remember the days of CoDzilla, and while Pathfinder has balanced things a good bit more, clerics are still extremely powerful.
And everyone seems to hate on rogues, but I happen to enjoy them and play them well. It's not hard to build a good rogue :P
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
And everyone seems to hate on rogues, but I happen to enjoy them and play them well. It's not hard to build a good rogue :P
Having just started my very first rogue (in PFS, with one scenario under his belt), I'd be very curious to hear some of your thoughts/tips/experiences/pointers about making viable rogues. In another thread, of course. :)
Not.
Cleric was one of the 3 top classes in 3E and got slightly BUFFED in Pathfinder (to be fair, so did Wizards, in both cases you just wonder why), so... no way are they weak. They are the pinnacle. They are more boring than other primary casters, IMO, but boring absolutely does not = weak.
I laughed when i saw the title of this thread.
Sure the clerics lost something from the transaction from 3.5 to PF (lost heavy armor, no full BAB divine power, no divine metamagic + persistant spell, no nightsticks, no good cloistered cleric) and they gained a few things (prof. with deity's weapon, better domains), in the end i have to say that they lost something but are still pretty good if built and used correctly.
Check this thread.
"It's the player" still stands. Guess you'd better brush up. ;)
Yes yes yes... the super top secret tricks to playing a rogue that make that player superior to all others...
Many of the people I have gamed with see clerics as too weak a class to mess with, yet want SOMEONE to run one so that their blood and guts fighters can be healed. I have run several clerics over the years and must disagree. I have found that clerics can be every bit as effective as combat characters AND healers.
Opinions.....?
I'll go and laugh for ten hours straight now.
[...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
I needed that. Now my jaw hurts. And my sides. And I'm dehydrated from all the tears I laughed.
Clerics weak?
Some get this crazy notion, but I think they have these delusions because they somehow think clerics may learn nothing but healing spells.
As you have noted yourself, they can be quite effective as both healers and warriors - and if they ignore the healing part, they can become quite frightening.
Pathfinder defused the situation to the point where they don't completely overshadow every martial class, but they're far from weak.
I laughed when i saw the title of this thread.
Sure the clerics lost something from the transaction from 3.5 to PF (lost heavy armor, no full BAB divine power, no divine metamagic + persistant spell, no nightsticks, no good cloistered cleric) and they gained a few things (prof. with deity's weapon, better domains), in the end i have to say that they lost something but are still pretty good if built and used correctly.
Check this thread.
Who lost heavy armor? Yah freak! This here is masterwork stone plate an have yah met may heavy flail. think yah can outrun a dwarf cleric in stone plate, you would be wrong thanks to travel domain my speed is 30 same as yours, and longstrider bumps me up to 40 for most of the day!
[sarcasm]You think clerics are weak, you should try a wizard. No armor or decent weapon proficiencies, low hit dice, terrible BAB, crappy fort saves, and they can't heal themselves. Wizards are the truly terrible class, even next to clerics.[/sarcasm]
And in Pathfinder too. They didn't lose much in the transition.with one casting of Divine Power, I'm in front with my full BAB and STR 20,Clerics are probably pretty good if you are still playing 3.5e, yeah >>
I have heard tales of splat books and night sticks.
I think the PF cleric is a bit weaker than that which shall not be named.
But yeah if your cleric is bad it is because he is being bad on purpose or by accident. Clerics are fantastic proactive characters with healing to boot, only forced out of that role by the king of proactive spellcasting, the oracle. Clerics are cool.
I'm glad to see my opinion so widely shared.
My first (and toughest) cleric inspired fear
and respect everywhere he went. Very few even
TRIED to mess with him. He was (and is) totally
devoted to his group and takes no @#$% from anyone.
As a fighter, he stands right up there with the
best of them.
Clerics are fantastic proactive characters with healing to boot, only forced out of that role by the king of proactive spellcasting, the oracle.
I need to disagree with this (admittedly semantic and tangential) point - prepared casters are specifically designed to benefit more from proactivity than spontaneous casters. In any situation that you see coming, spontaneous casters are limited to the same preparation as non-casters (i.e. buy items to compensate). Prepared casters - especially clerics, due to automatic access to their full spell list - can completely change their signature class ability when given forewarning. Spontaneous casters are much better when reacting to an unforeseen situation.
But back to the main topic, the consensus remains that clerics are immensely powerful, and I can't disagree in the slightest.
Clerics are fantastic proactive characters with healing to boot, only forced out of that role by the king of proactive spellcasting, the oracle.I need to disagree with this (admittedly semantic and tangential) point - prepared casters are specifically designed to benefit more from proactivity than spontaneous casters. In any situation that you see coming, spontaneous casters are limited to the same preparation as non-casters (i.e. buy items to compensate). Prepared casters - especially clerics, due to automatic access to their full spell list - can completely change their signature class ability when given forewarning. Spontaneous casters are much better when reacting to an unforeseen situation.
But back to the main topic, the consensus remains that clerics are immensely powerful, and I can't disagree in the slightest.
Prepared spell casters can be more effective in certain situations
where spontaneous casters are in others. I have played both. Moststill tend to have a "fly by the seat of your pants" way of
operating, though. That's just MY preference, I suppose.
HEAL? NOT NOW, AM KILLING. AM CHANNEL ENERGY AFTER BATTLE.
HEAL? NOT NOW, AM KILLING. AM CHANNEL ENERGY AFTER BATTLE.
Good cleric, good cleric. Channel that negative energy after battle.
"It's the player" still stands. Guess you'd better brush up. ;)Yes yes yes... the super top secret tricks to playing a rogue that make that player superior to all others...
Rogues are situationally great. Depends on the game and the player. Heavy skill games are great for a rogue. Heavy combat games...yeah they don't shine so much.
As for cleric? I find them boring, but they are quite tough.
How exactly are arcane spells *not* better than divine spells in almost every way? Sure, clerics are better at healing and can self-buff better (which they basically need to do in combat), but arcane spells are better for pretty much everything else. Battlefield control, SoDs, SoSs, blasting, utility, etc.I find Cleric to be one of the most powerful classes. They are better than Wizards powerwise. Compare the two. Same spell progression is about it. The Cleric get 2 domains to the Wizard 1 school. Granted the School powers are little better in most cases. The Cleric gets 3/4 BAB and 1D8 hit dice comapared to the Wizards 1/2 BAB and 1D6 hit dice. The cleric get channel energy compared the wizards couple bonus feats and arcane bond. The Cleric can cast in armor and get heavy armor with a feat while the wizard is severly restricted in armor use. The Cleric gets 2 good save to the Wizard 1 good save. They both get the same skills per level but the wizard come out ahead in class skills wise with Knowledge skills.
So seems to me the only thing wizard is better at is skills. With Int as thier core stat and 16 class skills they come out ahead but still fall short of skill monkey due to lacking class skills.
Of couse some would argue that Wizard spells are more powerful but I don't find that to be true. It was in 2E days but not so much now.
Wizard spells just plain aren't better. They aren't worse either. About all the wizard has is more variety but the spells are no more powerful than Cleric spells.
Now back in AD&D and 2E days, cleric spells were less powerful. In 3E and PF I find the Cleric spells on par with Wizard spells though wizard can switch things up a bit more.
weaklings. if it weren`t for big daddy, or big mommy, or big $&)%(/&)(/))( (unspeakable abomination), they wouldn`t be nothin`.
Many of the people I have gamed with see clerics as too weak a class to mess with, yet want SOMEONE to run one so that their blood and guts fighters can be healed. I have run several clerics over the years and must disagree. I have found that clerics can be every bit as effective as combat characters AND healers.
Opinions.....?
Yeah, you're right to disagree. Clerics are awesome. Definitely one of the most powerful and versatile classes in the game.