Oredia Vlaskinov |
So a buddy and I have been doing a bit of number crunching thanks to the armor as DR optional rule in Ultimate Combat. As of yet, I havn't had a chance to play in a high level game in pathfinder, but by the number it seems thus:
The guidelines in the manual as to how much of your money you should be spending on defensive items is complete bupkiss.
From my research, in the DM section they suggest that a player should be spending around 25% of their gp on defensive items. At lvl 12, that's 27000. Spending that, the most defensive character I can think of, a fighter in full plate and large sheild, is going to have around 28-30 AC. A purple worm (CR 12) has a +25 bonus to hit! So by design, the most defensive member of the party is supposed to be hit pretty much every time? Seriously? Then we have the option of taking off 5 of that AC to get DR 7. Maybe 8. That's negated by the fact that the Worm is Gargantuan. I don't get it, can someone explain?
Evil Lincoln |
By level 12, HP becomes the more important defense.
Most big high level monsters will always hit almost anyone with their primary attack. Martial characters are typically built to survive at least one such attack.
Even so, a high AC is still desirable to mitigate secondary attacks.
The guidelines in the book are just that, guidelines. Few real characters come anywhere near the expenditure ratio they offer, but it is useful for making PCs at levels higher than 1st fairly.
Jiggy RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
From my research, in the DM section they suggest that a player should be spending around 25% of their gp on defensive items. At lvl 12, that's 27000. Spending that, the most defensive character I can think of, a fighter in full plate and large sheild, is going to have around 28-30 AC.
Hm... How are you spending the gold? Let's break it down:
MW Full Plate: +9 AC, 1,650gp
MW Heavy Shield: +2 AC, 170gp
+1 enhancement to armor: +1 AC, 1,000gp
+1 enhancement to shield: +1 AC, 1,000gp
Ring of Protection +1: +1 AC, 2,000gp
So far we're up to a +14 to AC - we'll say he has +1 DEX, so an AC of 25 total - for 5,820gp. Over 20,000gp to go:
Upgrade to +2 armor: +1 AC, 3,000gp
Upgrade to +2 shield: +1 AC, 3,000gp
Upgrade to Ring of Prot +2: +1 AC, 6,000gp
Alright, prices getting steeper now: we're up to 28 AC, but at the cost of an additional 12,000gp, leaving us only about 8,000gp. Hm. Starting to look like you're right. Kinda scary...
KrispyXIV |
Big critters with one attack are almost always going to land their one attack by design; its there so that they dont waste their limited actions flailing innefectually at the party.
Look at creatures with iterative or multiple attacks; generally part of their attack line will be at a lower bonus, or their iteratives will.
Finally, you are discounting one of the bigger sets of bonuses to AC here; Fighting Defensively/Combat Expertise can give you how much additional on top of what you've already got?
Cartigan |
By level 12, HP becomes the more important defense.
Bull. I've played a game to level 20 and I'm level 11 in another game. I don't know about armor as DR games but in armor as AC games, you NEVER want to be a punching bag. You WILL lose. If you armor isn't enough to deflect blows, you will be lucky to survive a CR appropriate challenge versus melee monsters.
Most big high level monsters will always hit almost anyone with their primary attack. Martial characters are typically built to survive at least one such attack.
And exactly one. Hopefully the iteratives or REST of the natural attacks won't kill you.
Abraham spalding |
By level 2 a solid defense with good numbers all around becomes the best defense. Having a high AC and good offensive power is fairly easy around level 12.
The actual armor as DR rules:
Armor bonus becomes DR/magic (so full plate would be DR 9/armor) +` per 5 levels (so at level 12 you would have DR 11/armor).
This is if it isn't magical which becomes DR/adamantine. If it's actually Adamantine it becomes DR/-
If you have a natural armor bonus (say from Iron Hide) you gain another couple of points of DR.
If the armor is +4 armor then the armor will provide DR 13/adamantine and from his level bonus said fighter will have DR 15/adamantine.
Now of course the Gargantuan worm will bypass this -- but that's part of the package -- don't like it don't use it.
Raghart |
Hm, the Armor as DR rule is just a suggestion. Personally, i think that it only work relatively well in low-level campaings, in the long run it only benefits the character types who have lots of life, natural DR, and low CA, name: barbarians.
Also, you can see that monsters and enemies are affected by this rules as well, so, the combat is "diferent" and surely, the bigger monsters are more dangerous, but maybe it's not that unbalanced. It should be tested.
Oh, and i've seen many characters survive thanks to combat expertise, and with them, their groups.
StarMartyr365 |
I really like the Armour as DR idea and have used the one in Unearthed Arcana. I used the Defense Bonus + Armour as DR variant with the caveat that you got either your Defense Bonus OR your Armour bonus but not both.
I really like how it is implemented in UC and will use it but I'd like to know how it works with touch attack. Does touch attack trump DR since you don't need to actually bypass it to deliver the effect? What about damage from something like acid arrow. I don't have a copy yet so I'm going off what I remember form paging through a friend's copy.
I'd like to just switch to the Defense system from Star Wars Saga and I think this is a step in the right direction but I'm going to wait until I get my copy in October before I really work on it.
SM
KrispyXIV |
KrispyXIV wrote:Combat Expertise is worth roughly nothing in Pathfinder due to it being based statically on BAB.
Finally, you are discounting one of the bigger sets of bonuses to AC here; Fighting Defensively/Combat Expertise can give you how much additional on top of what you've already got?
For a full BAB class at level 12 its a +4 AC. Thats a 20% shift.
Fighting Defensively (with Acrobatics) is another +3.
Thats a total of another +7 (35% shift) in your favor, right?
Oredia Vlaskinov |
Big critters with one attack are almost always going to land their one attack by design; its there so that they dont waste their limited actions flailing innefectually at the party.
Look at creatures with iterative or multiple attacks; generally part of their attack line will be at a lower bonus, or their iteratives will.
Finally, you are discounting one of the bigger sets of bonuses to AC here; Fighting Defensively/Combat Expertise can give you how much additional on top of what you've already got?
Then lets look at a Green Dragon. It has 3 attacks at +21, and three at +16.
Those first three will almost always hit our beefiest def character. A 7-9 isn't an issue. How is that okay? Is the game really designed for you to get hit like that? If so, what happens when that monster decides it doesn't like a squishy? That's also not taking into acount that it's a dragon, and will likely have buffed itself prior to the battle with it's many spell like abilities.
Raghart |
Then lets look at a Green Dragon. It has 3 attacks at +21, and three at +16.Those first three will almost always hit our beefiest def character. A 7-9 isn't an issue. How is that okay? Is the game really designed for you to get hit like that? If so, what happens when that monster decides it doesn't like a squishy? That's also not taking into acount that it's a dragon, and will likely have buffed itself prior to the battle with it's many spell like abilities.
You can consider yourself lucky if the dragon is even coming near you to attack.
KrispyXIV |
Those first three will almost always hit our beefiest def character. A 7-9 isn't an issue. How is that okay? Is the game really designed for you to get hit like that? If so, what happens when that monster decides it doesn't like a squishy? That's also not taking into acount that it's a dragon, and will likely have buffed itself prior to the battle with it's many spell like abilities.
First, consider that with Combat Expertise/Fighting Defensively, thats now a 14-16. With the hitpoint totals a fighter should have, thats a drop in the bucket, right? Fights should cost the party SOME resources.
And squishies are generally less squishy than you'd think. That dragon goes after your typical wizard, and he's looking at swinging through displacement, or a mirror image... he'll be lucky if he can overcome those with a single full attack.
Especially since there's no reason his AC should be totally horrible either.
But the dragon also does have scarier methods of attack.
Dragonsong |
KrispyXIV wrote:Big critters with one attack are almost always going to land their one attack by design; its there so that they dont waste their limited actions flailing innefectually at the party.
Look at creatures with iterative or multiple attacks; generally part of their attack line will be at a lower bonus, or their iteratives will.
Finally, you are discounting one of the bigger sets of bonuses to AC here; Fighting Defensively/Combat Expertise can give you how much additional on top of what you've already got?
Then lets look at a Green Dragon. It has 3 attacks at +21, and three at +16.
Those first three will almost always hit our beefiest def character. A 7-9 isn't an issue. How is that okay? Is the game really designed for you to get hit like that? If so, what happens when that monster decides it doesn't like a squishy? That's also not taking into acount that it's a dragon, and will likely have buffed itself prior to the battle with it's many spell like abilities.
In other words a game where it has been established that offensive capabilities outstrip to a high degree defensive ones shows this again. Do remember that recommended allocations of WBL is in the core book as well it's not something new. Defenses get shafted in this game.
Edit for clarity: straight AC and saves defenses miss chances actually work and scale well.
cibet44 |
So a buddy and I have been doing a bit of number crunching thanks to the armor as DR optional rule in Ultimate Combat. As of yet, I havn't had a chance to play in a high level game in pathfinder, but by the number it seems thus:
The guidelines in the manual as to how much of your money you should be spending on defensive items is complete bupkiss.
From my research, in the DM section they suggest that a player should be spending around 25% of their gp on defensive items. At lvl 12, that's 27000. Spending that, the most defensive character I can think of, a fighter in full plate and large sheild, is going to have around 28-30 AC. A purple worm (CR 12) has a +25 bonus to hit! So by design, the most defensive member of the party is supposed to be hit pretty much every time? Seriously? Then we have the option of taking off 5 of that AC to get DR 7. Maybe 8. That's negated by the fact that the Worm is Gargantuan. I don't get it, can someone explain?
I thought a CR 12 Purple Worm is meant to be a moderate challenge for 4 12th level PCs, not one 12th level PC. From what I understand the CR system is built around a party of four. A 12th level party of four should be able to handle several CR 12 battles in a day without resting (somewhere around 4 or 5). So if you extrapolate that out the same level of challenge for a single 12th level PC would be a CR 3 or 4 creature. The 12 level PC should be able to handle 4 or 5 CR 4 creatures in a day alone and without resting. I think that's the appropriate comparison.
I know it sounds weird but thats how the CR system works if you break it down to a single PC instead of a party.
Cartigan |
Oredia Vlaskinov wrote:I thought a CR 12 Purple Worm is meant to be a moderate challenge for 4 12th level PCs, not one 12th level PC.So a buddy and I have been doing a bit of number crunching thanks to the armor as DR optional rule in Ultimate Combat. As of yet, I havn't had a chance to play in a high level game in pathfinder, but by the number it seems thus:
The guidelines in the manual as to how much of your money you should be spending on defensive items is complete bupkiss.
From my research, in the DM section they suggest that a player should be spending around 25% of their gp on defensive items. At lvl 12, that's 27000. Spending that, the most defensive character I can think of, a fighter in full plate and large sheild, is going to have around 28-30 AC. A purple worm (CR 12) has a +25 bonus to hit! So by design, the most defensive member of the party is supposed to be hit pretty much every time? Seriously? Then we have the option of taking off 5 of that AC to get DR 7. Maybe 8. That's negated by the fact that the Worm is Gargantuan. I don't get it, can someone explain?
It is, other than the fact damage and to-hit aren't divided among 4 PCs. It's a challenge for 4 PCs because 4 PCs can probably stay alive along enough to kill it. Possibly by distracting it with a Fighter sacrifice.
Oredia Vlaskinov |
cibet44 wrote:Oredia Vlaskinov wrote:I thought a CR 12 Purple Worm is meant to be a moderate challenge for 4 12th level PCs, not one 12th level PC.So a buddy and I have been doing a bit of number crunching thanks to the armor as DR optional rule in Ultimate Combat. As of yet, I havn't had a chance to play in a high level game in pathfinder, but by the number it seems thus:
The guidelines in the manual as to how much of your money you should be spending on defensive items is complete bupkiss.
From my research, in the DM section they suggest that a player should be spending around 25% of their gp on defensive items. At lvl 12, that's 27000. Spending that, the most defensive character I can think of, a fighter in full plate and large sheild, is going to have around 28-30 AC. A purple worm (CR 12) has a +25 bonus to hit! So by design, the most defensive member of the party is supposed to be hit pretty much every time? Seriously? Then we have the option of taking off 5 of that AC to get DR 7. Maybe 8. That's negated by the fact that the Worm is Gargantuan. I don't get it, can someone explain?
It is, other than the fact damage and to-hit aren't divided among 4 PCs. It's a challenge for 4 PCs because 4 PCs can probably stay alive along enough to kill it. Possibly by distracting it with a Fighter sacrifice.
Exactly. ><
I guess I just hoped that Paizo had actually fixed this. In a system where every level Offense gets better naturally, but defense only does if you buy it, it's rather biased and silly. Just have to "Fix it" as GM like I did in 3.5 I guess.
Golo |
MW Full Plate: +9 AC, 1,650gp
MW Heavy Shield: +2 AC, 170gp
+1 enhancement to armor: +1 AC, 1,000gp
+1 enhancement to shield: +1 AC, 1,000gp
Ring of Protection +1: +1 AC, 2,000gpSo far we're up to a +14 to AC - we'll say he has +1 DEX, so an AC of 25 total - for 5,820gp. Over 20,000gp to go:
Upgrade to +2 armor: +1 AC, 3,000gp
Upgrade to +2 shield: +1 AC, 3,000gp
Upgrade to Ring of Prot +2: +1 AC, 6,000gpAlright, prices getting steeper now: we're up to 28 AC, but at the cost of an additional 12,000gp, leaving us only about 8,000gp. Hm. Starting to look like you're right. Kinda scary...
Amulet of natural armor +1 2,000gp
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5,000gpDefensive items may also include a cloak of resistance
Claok of resistance +1 1,000gp
KrispyXIV |
Exactly. ><I guess I just hoped that Paizo had actually fixed this. In a system where every level Offense gets better naturally, but defense only does if you buy it, it's rather biased and silly. Just have to "Fix it" as GM like I did in 3.5 I guess.
I'd like you to illustrate the actual problem here; if the Purple Worm, who will almost certainly not survive to go a second round with a 12th level party, has a +25 to hit an AC 35 (28+7), has a 55% chance of actually connecting (assuming there are no additional miss chances from something like Displacement), where is the problem?
The Purple Worm should have less of a chance of dealing some damage?
ProfPotts |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the guy's a level 12 (vanilla) Fighter he's got Armour Training 3, so he can have up to +4 AC from Dexterity in Full Plate, +6 if he's wearing Mithral Full Plate. He could be using a Tower Shield instead of a Heavy Shield. As mentioned he could be fighting defensively with Combat Expertise, not to mention adding other Feats like Dodge, Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, etc... Oh, and maybe the team spellcasters have buffed him up a bit too - by level 12 I'd guess they have a few good spells to help the guy's defenses, yes?
Also... it's a purple worm... it has a 15ft reach, but only a speed of 20ft... see if you can use that and out-think it... (hint: toe-to-toe melee may not be your best option)... ;)
KrispyXIV |
If the guy's a level 12 (vanilla) Fighter he's got Armour Training 3, so he can have up to +4 AC from Dexterity in Full Plate, +6 if he's wearing Mithral Full Plate. He could be using a Tower Shield instead of a Heavy Shield. As mentioned he could be fighting defensively with Combat Expertise, not to mention adding other Feats like Dodge, Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, etc... Oh, and maybe the team spellcasters have buffed him up a bit too - by level 12 I'd guess they have a few good spells to help the guy's defenses, yes?
Also... it's a purple worm... it has a 15ft reach, but only a speed of 20ft... see if you can use that and out-think it... (hint: toe-to-toe melee may not be your best option)... ;)
The other issue with this complaint is that its being assumed the character in question is spending a 'minimal' amount on defensive items; only 25%.
How much does your AC improve if thats what you are focusing on and spend, say, 50% on defensive items?
Add in non-AC defenses (do both! They stack!), and I dont see how a defensive build is at all unworkable.
Oredia Vlaskinov |
Oredia Vlaskinov wrote:
Exactly. ><I guess I just hoped that Paizo had actually fixed this. In a system where every level Offense gets better naturally, but defense only does if you buy it, it's rather biased and silly. Just have to "Fix it" as GM like I did in 3.5 I guess.
I'd like you to illustrate the actual problem here; if the Purple Worm, who will almost certainly not survive to go a second round with a 12th level party, has a +25 to hit an AC 35 (28+7), has a 55% chance of actually connecting (assuming there are no additional miss chances from something like Displacement), where is the problem?
The Purple Worm should have less of a chance of dealing some damage?
Like I said, it was very Nebulous and theory. If it truely won't survive to go a second round, my point is moot, but that seems crazy too! Where does the fighter get +7? Combat Expertise? I've got +4 max there, while fighting defensively only has +2 right? I'm not trying to complain, but was hoping to get imput from people that have actually played at this level to see if that was truely the expectation.
At a AC of 35, I could see the fighter doing what a fighter does best, being a tank. I was just haveing trouble seeing how to get to that 35+ with the money it suggested was balanced.
Just good to know how deadly it can be if the party doesn't take every oportunity to enhance their defences.
Edit: I was going off of the Core rulebook's suggestion for how much a balanced PC would spend on things. I recognise that someone could focus on defense and get crazy; I just also recognise that that can be boring and I for one wouldn't do it.
The main thing I'm wondering is if the "Average ammount" someone should spend on defense should be communicated more clearly, as it seems by design you need to spend more then they suggest currently to stay alive.
Dragonsong |
At a AC of 35, I could see the fighter doing what a fighter does best, being a tank. I was just haveing trouble seeing how to get to that 35+ with the money it suggested was balanced.
Not in this game. Tank is a problematic concept in this game at the best of times. But if you look at the DPR threads fighter is a striker.
meabolex |
From my research, in the DM section they suggest that a player should be spending around 25% of their gp on defensive items.
No, that's the "balanced" approach, but it doesn't apply evenly to all characters. The next sentence after the one you paraphrase is:
Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
Melee characters spend almost all their money on weapons and/or armor. A heavily armored sword 'n board fighter should probably spend about half their wealth on armor. A two-weapon fighter could easily spend half of their wealth on weapons.
KrispyXIV |
Oredia Vlaskinov wrote:Not in this game. Tank is a problematic concept in this game at the best of times. But if you look at the DPR threads fighter is a striker.
At a AC of 35, I could see the fighter doing what a fighter does best, being a tank. I was just haveing trouble seeing how to get to that 35+ with the money it suggested was balanced.
Tanking is a valid role in a tabletop RPG, it just functions completely differently than in an MMO. The fighter just has to make himself the closest target, and as unignorable as possible.
Oredia Vlaskinov |
Oredia Vlaskinov wrote:Not in this game. Tank is a problematic concept in this game at the best of times. But if you look at the DPR threads fighter is a striker.
At a AC of 35, I could see the fighter doing what a fighter does best, being a tank. I was just haveing trouble seeing how to get to that 35+ with the money it suggested was balanced.
I agree actually, it just seems really skewed unless you know what you're getting into and prepare. I started this thread to see if like in many games, you can't just go off the numbers, or I wasn't considering something.
Edit: I guess what I'm really driveing at is that it'd be nice to see how they designed the monsters. What AC do they expect a character to have at certain levels to stay competitive with the monsters at their CR. That's what I'd like to know as a GM so that I can advise my players as such, or come up with a way to make what they have work.
Raghart |
I'm actually playing with a Dwarf Cavalier (Order of the Lion) level 14 and CA 29. Actually, it's the poorest fighter in the group in comparison to the fighter and de invulnerable rager, but i like it because is most versatile, beeing relatively good at fighting defensively and ofensively.
I'd used sometimes Combat Expertise + Fighting defensively, with gets me to CA 36, and with mi Challenge power to CA 40, also, most that melees my dwarf gets tripped very fast (and that is a -4 to attack if you don't want a caress of my flail! xD).
In true: i think that are many options that can put a fighting type player to have high defenses, but combats with Great Beasts (such as Dragons and Purple Worms) are really, really, quick and brutal, the Ace for Win is most who can do more Damage more Quickly, BUT even like that it's not impossible to defend against their attacks.
Of course, without Armor as DR ... with it you are pretty much f%$&ed, as i see, battling big baddies.
Dragonsong |
Dragonsong wrote:I agree actually, it just seems really skewed unless you know what you're getting into and prepare. I started this thread to see if like in many games, you can't just go off the numbers, or I wasn't considering something.Oredia Vlaskinov wrote:Not in this game. Tank is a problematic concept in this game at the best of times. But if you look at the DPR threads fighter is a striker.
At a AC of 35, I could see the fighter doing what a fighter does best, being a tank. I was just haveing trouble seeing how to get to that 35+ with the money it suggested was balanced.
It's about looking at other classes to do the job pally/anti-p, inquisitor, heavy armor cleric/oracle of battle get enough boosts all around to be able to 'tank'. Pallies now get spells that can force someone to target them actually making those options work better for that sort of role most people are just going to have to suck up a lot of damage and hope they can survive it these classes do too but might in a minuscule way do that better than other wannabe bricks.
ProfPotts |
Where does the fighter get +7? Combat Expertise? I've got +4 max there, while fighting defensively only has +2 right?
Fighting Defensively gives you +3 if you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics (Core book page 90).
At a AC of 35, I could see the fighter doing what a fighter does best, being a tank. I was just haveing trouble seeing how to get to that 35+ with the money it suggested was balanced.
You have 13 (or 14 if human) Feats as a level 12 Fighter. Many can be used to suppliment AC in some manner. You can also spend money on items which aren't 'defensive' but which improve your defense (such as belts which boost your Dexterity) in addition to your strict defensive items budget (if that's what you're sticking to). You can also add in temporary magical effects (from items - also with a seperate budget - or friendly spellcasters).
So...
+2 Full Plate: +11 AC
+2 Heavy Shield: +4 AC
+2 Ring of Protection +1: +2 AC
Dexterity 18: +4 AC
Dodge Feat: +1 AC
Shield Focus Feat: +1 AC
Greater Shield Focus Feat: +1 AC
Fighting Defensively with 3+ ranks in Acrobatics: +3 AC
Combat Expertise Feat: +4 AC
That's AC 41... without really trying (it's only 4 of your 13 or 14 Feats, for example).
Oredia Vlaskinov |
Oredia Vlaskinov wrote:Where does the fighter get +7? Combat Expertise? I've got +4 max there, while fighting defensively only has +2 right?Fighting Defensively gives you +3 if you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics (Core book page 90).
Oredia Vlaskinov wrote:At a AC of 35, I could see the fighter doing what a fighter does best, being a tank. I was just haveing trouble seeing how to get to that 35+ with the money it suggested was balanced.You have 13 (or 14 if human) Feats as a level 12 Fighter. Many can be used to suppliment AC in some manner. You can also spend money on items which aren't 'defensive' but which improve your defense (such as belts which boost your Dexterity) in addition to your strict defensive items budget (if that's what you're sticking to). You can also add in temporary magical effects (from items - also with a seperate budget - or friendly spellcasters).
So...
+2 Full Plate: +11 AC
+2 Heavy Shield: +4 AC
+2 Ring of Protection +1: +2 AC
Dexterity 18: +4 AC
Dodge Feat: +1 AC
Shield Focus Feat: +1 AC
Greater Shield Focus Feat: +1 AC
Fighting Defensively with 3+ ranks in Acrobatics: +3 AC
Combat Expertise Feat: +4 ACThat's AC 41... without really trying (it's only 4 of your 13 or 14 Feats, for example).
Pretty sweet. Also assumes that a fighter that focuses on heavy armor is going to have a dex of 18, which is unlikely to me in a standard game, then again maybe not with magic. Can you combine CE and fighting defensive? It used to be one or the other so I didn't know.
Edit: Guess you can! Very cool. Thanks for the replies! Seems like I was just missing a few things.
ProfPotts |
Also assumes that a fighter that focuses on heavy armor is going to have a dex of 18, which is unlikely to me in a standard game, then again maybe not with magic.
Yeah - by level 12 there's a good chance Cat's Grace is available, if nothing else, so it's more like 14 Dexterity, which wouldn't be that unusual for a well-rounded Fighter.
Can you combine CE and fighting defensive? It used to be one or the other so I didn't know.
Nothing suggests you can't, as far as I know.
Much of the perceived BAB Vs AC disparity seems to come from the fact that you automatically gain BAB as you level, but have to choose options (be they Feats, equipment, or spells) to boost AC. That makes it possible, even easy, to build characters with woefully low AC for their level - so-called 'glass cannons' and the like. IMHO, natch... ;)