Starting Harrowstone in six weeks: Advice on build rules, step-advancement


Carrion Crown


I intend to run "The Haunting of Harrowstone" for a group of gamers in about a month and a half. The players are a nearly-even mix of experienced PFRPG players and total newbies. The idea is that each chapter of Carrion Crown will be run as a mini-campaign with six PCs at a time, and at the end of each chapter, players can drop out and skip a chapter or two, giving other interested players a chance to join in (our group has about 100 active members and I have at least a dozen who are expressly interested in Carrion Crown, so rotation will likely be heavy between AP chapters with one or two mainstay players playing through the whole campaign).

To combat power creep and min/maxing by the more experienced players, I'm strongly considering having them do a 10-point buy for their characters. Is this going to leave the group at too much of a disadvantage? I want them to feel somewhat fragile - as is appropriate for a horror game, IMO - but I know they'll get frustrated if they have too much of a glass jaw.

Also, I'd like to incorporate Sean K. Reynolds' step-advancement system in lieu of traditional XP tracking - largely because I almost always run into problems with people not recording their XP, and this system gives me an easy way of keeping track: "Well, we've played this many encounters, so you should have this many steps if you attended all the sessions so far." Is one "step" per encounter (role-playing or combat) a good rule of thumb for rate of advancement?

Finally, there's a good deal of interest in steampunk among these gamers. I've heard that Ultimate Combat offers some great guidelines on working guns into the game without actually allowing the gunslinger class - but is other steampunk-style tech well-represented in the book? If so, I'd like to introduce it immediately into "Harrowstone". A few of the items in Legendary Games' first release also caught my eye - can anyone offer an estimation of how useful that supplement would be for adding steampunk flavor?

(I dunno how I'm gonna justify steampunk in Golarion, but I was thinking that maybe some Ustalavian adventurers penetrated the Red Redoubt of Karamoss and are now flooding the market with scrounged tech.)

Thanks in advance for your help!

Liberty's Edge

I've not read or played Carrion Crown (though I'd love to play it, which is why I haven't read it) but on the mention of 10 point buy, I think you might actually find that giving such a small point buy causes more of a problem than it solves. I'll use myself as an example.

Giving me a 10 point point buy is going to do two things, I'm going to min max my other attributes, hard, and I'm going to be as SAD as possible. Instead of playing a (semi) well rounded gish of some type, you're going to get a pure caster with all the important attributes about as high as if I'd been given 25 points.

Quick Example:

10 point buy elven wizard:
8 Str, 16 dex, con 12, Int 18, Wis 7, Chr 7

25 point Magus (human)

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Chr 8


ShadowcatX wrote:


Giving me a 10 point point buy is going to do two things, I'm going to min max my other attributes, hard, and I'm going to be as SAD as possible. Instead of playing a (semi) well rounded gish of some type, you're going to get a pure caster with all the important attributes about as high as if I'd been given 25 points.

Point taken. BTW: Are you using SAD as an acronym for something or capitalizing for emphasis? If it's the former, I'm not familiar with the term.

Sovereign Court

Will you be switching players mid chapter or only between chapters? If each chapter will be played by the same core group you can always just use the advancement track and save yourself a lot of time.

I think you should stick to 15 pt buy. There is a lot of neat stuff in this AP to challenge the players.

Nothing sticks out as Steam-punk to me so far. I have read books 1-4. You could always try and flavor it steam-punk but I would go further than just adding guns. Guns dont really seem steam-punkish to me alone. Personally I went with 1920's America inspired heavily by Lovecraft. Its working out well maybe my best game yet.

Grand Lodge

Power Word Unzip wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:


Giving me a 10 point point buy is going to do two things, I'm going to min max my other attributes, hard, and I'm going to be as SAD as possible. Instead of playing a (semi) well rounded gish of some type, you're going to get a pure caster with all the important attributes about as high as if I'd been given 25 points.
Point taken. BTW: Are you using SAD as an acronym for something or capitalizing for emphasis? If it's the former, I'm not familiar with the term.

Single Attribute Dependancy.

Go for 15 points - you can still get decent but not superhuman builds - it more or less locks people into 16-17 as their top stat before racial adjustments.

Also set a minimum (after adjustment) stat of 8. This stops stupid arse power dumping and getting stats like 5 CHA... and again leads to more evenly distributed stats.


Pan wrote:
Will you be switching players mid chapter or only between chapters? If each chapter will be played by the same core group you can always just use the advancement track and save yourself a lot of time.

Players will be (hopefully) attending each game of the chapter - so I'd have one group for all of Harrowstone, one group for the entirety of Trial, one group for all of Broken Moon, etc.

By advancement track, do you simply mean to level the PCs up at the appropriate points denoted in the story synopsis, or are you basically saying, "Just use the XP system"? Because I really don't want to use traditional XP awards at all.

Quote:
Nothing sticks out as Steam-punk to me so far. I have read books 1-4. You could always try and flavor it steam-punk but I would go further than just adding guns. Guns dont really seem steam-punkish to me alone. Personally I went with 1920's America inspired heavily by Lovecraft. Its working out well maybe my best game yet.

Yeah, I'm still working on how to do this properly. It doesn't help that I'm not really familiar with steampunk as a genre myself to begin with. But I know the players will appreciate the extra effort, so I want to at least try. I'm thinking of introducing things like steam-powered carriages and maybe reskinning certain creatures to have a more mechanical aspect to their appearance and maneuvers without having to change too much in the actual stat blocks.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

I think the solution to "min-maxing" is just to put restrictions on the min and the max.

In the game of CC I'm running right now, character creation rules were such: 15 point buy, but only one stat can be purchased lower than 9, and no stat can be purchased higher than 16. Then apply racial. It forced everyone into a middle-band and worked out wonderfully.

As for "steam punk"... that's tricky to do in CC. Steampunk is all about "science is awesome, and a bit fantastic", in an HGWells or pulp sense. But CC is horror, not awesome. In particular, the 2nd Book in CC wants to communicate the idea that "science is horrific, and leads to places that man was not meant to go." The two ideas don't mesh terribly well. The idea of steampunk is also slightly antithetical to some of the themes in Book 4, but to a lesser extent.

Grand Lodge

Guns can work without needing Gunslingers - lots of Archetypes in UC give a class feature that allows gun use and gives 1 grit... but then Guns become a fire and forget feature for a round or two of combat before the swords need to come out.

Sovereign Court

Power Word Unzip wrote:
Pan wrote:
Will you be switching players mid chapter or only between chapters? If each chapter will be played by the same core group you can always just use the advancement track and save yourself a lot of time.

Players will be (hopefully) attending each game of the chapter - so I'd have one group for all of Harrowstone, one group for the entirety of Trial, one group for all of Broken Moon, etc.

By advancement track, do you simply mean to level the PCs up at the appropriate points denoted in the story synopsis, or are you basically saying, "Just use the XP system"? Because I really don't want to use traditional XP awards at all.

My apologies for the assumption. Yes the advancement track is as you guessed, a guide of the level the PCs should be when they start and end the chapter. Each book has the advancement track info within the first few pages. I just try and time sessions as best I can so players can level when appropriate. I do not use XP anymore and my games have improved greatly. I only have one player who is very old school who struggles without it. The players are much more focused on role playing and story then killing stuff and turning every rock for xp. YMMV


If you are switching players, why not use a 15 or 20 point buy and pre-fabricate the characters so power mongering isnt working.


+1 for 15 Point Buy. My group is an experienced one and we use the 15 PB in all of our APs. Also, no lowering stats below 8 and you can only have one stat 8. For an average character it boils down to 14 14 14 12 10 8, before racial modifiers, which I believe is well rounded.


Thanks for the advice. I've upped the point buy to 15 and constrained the upper and lower limits of ability scores to 8 and 16 before racial adjustments. May seek more advice as the campaign gets underway - our first meeting isn't until Sept. 30th, so I have awhile to prep, thankfully!


There's really no need to set the limit for the high scores, because it doesn't really pay off putting anything more than 15... AT BEST 16, if you're a wizard, but even then it pays off more to put into something else. So, if you wanted to put a 17, you'd have to be crazy.

Especially since APs usually go up to 15th lvl, so PCs have 3 stat increases (4th, 8th, 12th lvl) meaning there's no difference in modifiers between 16 (which will go up to 19, without racials/stat boosters) and 15 (which will go up to 18).

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Toadkiller Dog wrote:
There's really no need to set the limit for the high scores, because it doesn't really pay off putting anything more than 15... AT BEST 16, if you're a wizard, but even then it pays off more to put into something else. So, if you wanted to put a 17, you'd have to be crazy.

People still do it and seem convinced of its nessecity. This is actually true for STR scores of double-grip fighters: because of the rounding rules, a 17 STR gives you only +4 to damage, but an 18 STR jumps you up to +6 to damage.

That being said, I also put limits on my character's stats: nothing higher than 16, and only one stat below 9 (preracial). Leads to less of a gulf between characters. I want the Cleric/Rogue/whatever to be able to participate in melee too. I think the game is better for it, rather than everyone only being able to do one thing.


Erik Freund wrote:
Toadkiller Dog wrote:
There's really no need to set the limit for the high scores, because it doesn't really pay off putting anything more than 15... AT BEST 16, if you're a wizard, but even then it pays off more to put into something else. So, if you wanted to put a 17, you'd have to be crazy.

People still do it and seem convinced of its nessecity. This is actually true for STR scores of double-grip fighters: because of the rounding rules, a 17 STR gives you only +4 to damage, but an 18 STR jumps you up to +6 to damage.

I know, and they'll have 18 STR by level 4. That's just one chapter of an average AP, it's really not worth it to sacrifice 3 points for +2 dmg 3 levels earlier, it's not like the whole campaign depends on it. Whereas, he can invest those 13 points in INT, and he is now egligible for Combat Expertise and every other feat derived from it. And now has an extra skill point per level. Or he'll put those 13 points in Dexterity, raising his AC, Reflex saves, and is egligible for all feats that require 13 Dex (Dodge etc).

Making a character with STR 16 right of the bat severly gimps your other scores, and actually makes you weaker than other characters since the total of your modifiers (before racial) will be +5, whereas the usual is +6. Is +2 dmg for first three levels really worth it?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Toadkiller Dog wrote:
Making a character with STR 16 right of the bat severly gimps your other scores, and actually makes you weaker than other characters since the total of your modifiers (before racial) will be +5, whereas the usual is +6. Is +2 dmg for first three levels really worth it?

To the people I play with, yes. "You must have an 18 in your key stat, otherwise you suck." There is *intense* power-competition and arms-racing between the PCs at my table. I personally find it disgusting, as it leads to winners and losers, with the losers feeling like chump change and scrapping their characters trying to chase down the next power-build. However, those are my PCs. So I do what I can to reign in the problem.


Personally, I'd say the losers are those who put 16 as a starting stat, since in total, they have less. For wizards and their ilk - sure, but even then I'd rather go with a 15, since it gives more for other stats...

Oh well, to each his own.

Sovereign Court

Erik Freund wrote:
Toadkiller Dog wrote:
Making a character with STR 16 right of the bat severly gimps your other scores, and actually makes you weaker than other characters since the total of your modifiers (before racial) will be +5, whereas the usual is +6. Is +2 dmg for first three levels really worth it?
To the people I play with, yes. "You must have an 18 in your key stat, otherwise you suck." There is *intense* power-competition and arms-racing between the PCs at my table. I personally find it disgusting, as it leads to winners and losers, with the losers feeling like chump change and scrapping their characters trying to chase down the next power-build. However, those are my PCs. So I do what I can to reign in the problem.

Thats too bad, but not as awful as players who plan the "build" to level 20 with magic equipment based on the WBL. For some reason a few players I have run across think they deserve, no scratch that, are entitled to WBL in hard cash handed over between each level. Not only that but expect every town and market to have special or rare magic items ready to go right when they want them. Seriously what do they think this is Eberron?

Sorry for the /rant folks.


Pan wrote:

Seriously what do they think this is Eberron?

Sorry for the /rant folks.

You got support for that?


Pan wrote:
Thats too bad, but not as awful as players who plan the "build" to level 20 with magic equipment based on the WBL.

What is WBL?


Mortiana27 wrote:
Pan wrote:
Thats too bad, but not as awful as players who plan the "build" to level 20 with magic equipment based on the WBL.
What is WBL?

Wealth by level.

Liberty's Edge

Erik Freund wrote:

I think the solution to "min-maxing" is just to put restrictions on the min and the max.

In the game of CC I'm running right now, character creation rules were such: 15 point buy, but only one stat can be purchased lower than 9, and no stat can be purchased higher than 16. Then apply racial. It forced everyone into a middle-band and worked out wonderfully.

As for "steam punk"... that's tricky to do in CC. Steampunk is all about "science is awesome, and a bit fantastic", in an HGWells or pulp sense. But CC is horror, not awesome. In particular, the 2nd Book in CC wants to communicate the idea that "science is horrific, and leads to places that man was not meant to go." The two ideas don't mesh terribly well. The idea of steampunk is also slightly antithetical to some of the themes in Book 4, but to a lesser extent.

The solution to min maxing is to make players have to deal with their mins. Harrowstone has lots of ways those low scores will come into play, particularly if you try and dump charisma...if you've run the adventure you know about the chart and what I am talking about...good luck making friends...

Personally I find Min/Max complaints generally fall to the GM not being willing to force the players to deal with the consequences of the mins, or players whining about having to deal with them. If you take a low score in an attribute, you have a low score and your GM should have NPC's interact with you as such.

As to steampunk, it could work if you conceptually make the professor someone who was interested in that type of stuff and that being how he met all the PC's. Perhaps he was studying in Alkanstar for example.

I agree it may cause some issues later, but nothing that can't be overcome.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:
Pan wrote:

Seriously what do they think this is Eberron?

Sorry for the /rant folks.

You got support for that?

Gamemastery guide lays out what you can expect to find in a town of given size.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/settlements


Toadkiller Dog wrote:
+1 for 15 Point Buy. My group is an experienced one and we use the 15 PB in all of our APs. Also, no lowering stats below 8 and you can only have one stat 8. For an average character it boils down to 14 14 14 12 10 8, before racial modifiers, which I believe is well rounded.

I don't mean to cry "you're doing it wrong!!!" in any way, shape, or form, but for me, horror is about having characters with weaknesses, being menaced by things capable of exploiting those weaknesses.

So if you have somebody who has built a fighter brick type with a 20 strength, a 6 wisdom, and a 4 charisma (probably not exactly the numbers, but just an example), here's somebody who alienates everybody in town thus leading him to social isolation, which in turn can facilitate his becoming an "alone victim" that Jason/Freddie Kruger/Michael Myers/Alien/Jaws is so utterly fond of.
Here's somebody that possessing entities will naturally be drawn to as the easiest mark in the group. If he gets chased out of town by the city guard for being socially unacceptable, he has to sleep out in the woods where there's.....stuff howling at other stuff. And he's dumb, so he can't tell if it's a wolf or a barghest.....
So when this guy fights the customary 6 goblins/kobolds/mooks or what-have-you in the usual 1st level adventure (again just an example, no spoilers have been doled out).....this guy is naturally going to mow through that opposition.
Then,.... when the mind controller type monsters show up,......
MWAHAHAHAHA!!! He's thoroughly hosed...
Personal weakness, IMHO, is thoroughly exploitable by that which is terrible, and as such is a staple of horror. It is to be encouraged, because Dungeons and Dragons characters are soooooooo much tougher than the typical entourage of teen victims or "zero level commoner types" in a horror flick.


ciretose wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Pan wrote:

Seriously what do they think this is Eberron?

Sorry for the /rant folks.

You got support for that?

Gamemastery guide lays out what you can expect to find in a town of given size.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/settlements

My point was he was trying to say Eberron just allows for magic items to be handed out like candy.


All of my players finally met this past Friday and got to talk over their character concepts a bit. Here's what the party breakdown is going to look like so far:

- female halfling rogue
- indeterminate-gender human rogue (most likely an investigator archetype)
- female gnome summoner
- male dwarf fighter/ranger (player is undecided on exact class)
- male human cleric, who intends to multiclass into monk as we go forward
- female human sorcerer, working toward harrower prestige class

So a lot of sneaky-stabby and a lot of arcaney-casty. Cleric/monk guy, whom I've written about elsewhere on the boards, asked about taking the Leadership feat later on down the line. I told him that with a six-person group, I wasn't interested in adding a bunch of NPCs that needed to be tracked in combats and accounted for in an already-convoluted story line.

Everyone has a concrete build ready except the dwarf and the investigator. The dwarf player tends to hammer his guys out at the last minute anyway, and the investigator player is totally new to Pathfinder and is going to meet with me to play around with HeroLab. Everyone else seems pretty familiar with the mechanics, and I've approved their characters for the first session. I may start a separate thread to log my experiences running this AP once things kick off.

Thanks again for all the advice, and keep chiming in if you see something you feel should be addressed. I appreciate advice from other GMs who have already run CC, because I want this to be as fun as it can be for my players.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Carrion Crown / Starting Harrowstone in six weeks: Advice on build rules, step-advancement All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Carrion Crown