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Actually, the character I currently run is a charisma combat caster. Four levels of Sorc, one level of Oracle. Oracle of Lore lets you use charisma in place of dex for AC and Reflex, which is huge. Add a nice martial weapon (or exotic, if you are willing to wait), and life gets interesting. Namely, enlarge person + wand of leadblades and suddenly, you can turn out a hellacious ammount of damage. Plus, shield + mage armor + shield of faith, for a net +10 to armor class? You quickly become just as armored as the paladin, with a whole lot more damage behind you.
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I would not recommend mystic theurge. It's not a great prestige class in any event and with PFS limited to 12th level, you won't be able to access the levels where it gets tolerable.
My Charisma based PFS characters:
Oracle (Heavens) with spell focus and greater spell focus illusion. DC 17 Will saving throws for Color Spray when you get the spell at 2nd level. The Awesome Display revelation - subtract your Charisma modifier from the opponents hit dice for illusion pattern spells is great in PFS due to the level 12 limit.
Barbarian /Oracle (Battle). Enlarge person. Roll twice for initiative and take highest as a revelation. Grace (swift spell which negates AoO for movement. I will take my first rage prophet level the next time I level. I went Oracle 4 / Barbarian 2 for more emphasis on spellcasting (regular group has plenty of melee), but you can go Oracle 2 / Barbarian 4 for greater melee focus.
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I would like to play a charisma-based neutral cleric of a neutral deity. I would take Extra Channel and Selective Channel at first level, and channel negative energy. At higher levels, I would take Versatile Channeler and Improved Channel.
Race: Human
Statistics:
STR: 10
DEX: 10
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 15
CHA: 19 (17+2)
I realize this CON score is low, but I am not willing to decrease anything else to increase it.
The character could channel 9x per day and exclude 4 comrades.
Anyway, there is my 2 coppers worth.
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I realize this CON score is low, but I am not willing to decrease anything else to increase it.Why not? Is there something magical about a 10 ability score? Is an 8 so far out of line as would be a 12?
I don't mean to pick on you expressly, but I've seen this crop up with people before that somehow see the progression from 8 to 10 to 12 as having a huge spike in the middle and I don't understand it.
-James
James, counter question. With this design goal, what would YOU lower to 8?
Strength? Lowered carrying capacity, and this build looks like it will need heavier armor...
Dexterity? Reflex is the bad save for this class, and taking a penalty t initiative isn't totally a bad thing for a positive channeling cleric, I don't see the benefit for a negative channeling cleric...
Intelligence? That reduces the already low number of skills, including some of the virtual class requirements, might as well ignore entirely the set of knowledge skills...
Wisdom? Lowering it to 14 will add back a couple of points, and, if two level bumps, or a headband of Wisdom, are applied to Wisdom, allow 6th level spells at 12th level. Then again, as a Charisma-oriented build, the player is probably planning on using the level bumps and basic headband slot for Charisma instead...
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You make some excellent points, James.
I had started CHA at 19 with the intent of increasing it to 20 at level 4. That would give another use of channeling and increase the DC to resist the channel.
It would make far more sense to start CHA at 18, and put the 3 points into CON or CON and STR. A headband to increase CHA would compensate nicely.
I have a personal bias against "dump stats" but no saving throws depend on INT so lowering INT wouldn't hurt quite as much as lowering DEX or CON.
My current thought on feat progression is:
1: Selective Channel, Improved Channel
3: Command Undead
5: Versatile Channeler
7: Turn Undead
9: Extra Channel
11: ? (I haven't thought that far ahead...)
Thanks for the thoughts. I hope the OP has gleaned as much as I from this thread.
I am running a barbarian who will eventually multiclass into sorcerer and then dragon disciple. That character is not entirely CHA-based, though.
Edit: I really don't see this character relying much on melee, so decreasing STR wouldn't hurt much either. That would mean even more points for CON and DEX.
Edit II: The 70 lb limit for STR 7 is the maximum heavy load. The maximum light load at STR 7 is 23 lbs - less than most types of medium armor and three types of light armor. This build needs armor. And do I really want to expend a spell slot for Ant Haul?
Developer
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Edit II: The 70 lb limit for STR 7 is the maximum heavy load. The maximum light load at STR 7 is 23 lbs - less than most types of medium armor and three types of light armor. This build needs armor. And do I really want to expend a spell slot for Ant Haul?
You're a cleric in heavy armor, being heavily encumbered really doesn't affect you all that much. You don't move any slower, your max dex is pretty much the same. The only thing is ACP, but you don't strike me as the type to be leaping about the battlefield. You don't need ant haul.
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Edit II: The 70 lb limit for STR 7 is the maximum heavy load. The maximum light load at STR 7 is 23 lbs - less than most types of medium armor and three types of light armor. This build needs armor. And do I really want to expend a spell slot for Ant Haul?First, what's wrong with heavy load? Why would you want to be lightly encumbered? Again I would add a feat for heavy armor. It's a feat that gives you +3 AC for a build that's going to walk up to the enemies' front ranks (or within them) and encourage them to attack him.
15-20 movement is what's wrong. Do you really not want to be able to get away from the BBEG who is good at melee and can smash you into tidbits?
Seriously, a 9-10 Str is a minimum except for Sorc/wizards.
One combo that works very well for Cha based builds is 10 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 18 Cha. Perhaps dump Wis to an 8 and increase Int or Str to a 12 depending on your priorities and if you have a 'good' save in Will, but it avoids the weaknesses of dumping stats and makes you strong where you need to be (HP and AC).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Seriously, I really wish I knew who the heck came up with that idea that low wisdom on a "healer/buffer" is "fine." Whoever it was didn't know this rule, and so now whenever I see this crop up I am going to repost the counter in big bold letters:
In order to cast a spell, you must have a score in your primary casting stat of at least 10 plus the spell's level.
Even if you plan to never cast a spell requiring a saving throw (and I can see how you might be able to get away with that with the right spell/domain selections) you simply CANNOT get away with anything less than a 12 in PFS play.
WIS 12 is an interesting spot, actually - you can spend all your spell slots casting bless and bull's strength before/at the beginning of every fight. Remember that even if your WIS is insufficient to cast higher-level spells, you still (as you level up) gain access to those slots, and can use them to cast lower-level spells.
So you could, in theory buy an 11 WIS, casting bless, CLW, or utility spells until you hit level 4 and bump to 12 WIS, and from there forward just cast more and more instances of bull's strength while having your stats built totally non-traditionally: a "fighter array" with an 18STR, etc; a high-CHA negative channeller; even a 20 DEX dervish dancer!
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Umm the character in question was going to be a channeling cleric so I don't think that a 10 or 8 WIS score is a good call.-James
Details. Ummm good point (it still stands for sorc, oracle, and some bard builds) it's what I get for not reading fully.
For cleric.
10 Str, 12 Con, 12 Dex, 7 Int 16 Wis, 18 Cha
If you make a decision to go full out on channeling, you can actually ditch wisdom down to 7. You just have to stick to wands. Since bless and bull strength are on your spell list, there is nothing stopping you from pinging them off all day.
Also, with very high charisma, you can take Dangerously Curious, and add UMD to your class skills, and also giving you a +1 to the check. Add in masterwork tool, and the appropriate ioun stone (for 50gp and 200gp, respectively), and you can have UMD checks of:
1st level: +1 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) +1 (trait) + 2 (tool) +1 (ioun) +5 (charisma) = 13
Given the high UMD, you can also pick up utility wands from every class that interests you.
I've played a negative channeler in light armor. As long as you take advantage of the size of the AOE, you can stay out of the fray.
The real fun comes from modules with zombies, skeletons, or any other undead. You with Improved Channel, and the high charisma score, you soon hit the point where they just can't make their saves.
It also would not hurt to pick up scrolls of Animate Dead, to make your own buddies (though they only last the length of the module).
My negative channeler was Wis14, but I often thought that I could have done almost as well at spellcasting, and better at channeling if I had stuck to a much lower wisdom score.
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I would like to play a charisma-based neutral cleric of a neutral deity. I would take Extra Channel and Selective Channel at first level, and channel negative energy. At higher levels, I would take Versatile Channeler and Improved Channel.
Race: Human
Statistics:
STR: 10
DEX: 10
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 15
CHA: 19 (17+2)I realize this CON score is low, but I am not willing to decrease anything else to increase it.
The character could channel 9x per day and exclude 4 comrades.
Keeping a character with those states alive, even as a spam-can cleric who spends a feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency, is going to be a horrible chore and a half (and, frankly, I don't think it can be done).
-- and the best your channels are going to be is 6d6, or ~18hp worth. While handy in a pinch after the bad-guy fireball soften-ups, you're killing your guy preemptively to give him a few extra.
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One combo that works very well for Cha based builds is 10 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 18 Cha. Perhaps dump Wis to an 8 and increase Int or Str to a 12 depending on your priorities and if you have a 'good' save in Will, but it avoids the weaknesses of dumping stats and makes you strong where you need to be (HP and AC).
I wouldn't dump WIS like that unless you have a race/class combo which offsets the crippling will-saves and horrible Perception checks you're going to saddle yourself with.
My halfling rogue/paladin started with STR-12, DEX+17, CON:14, INT:12, WIS:07, CHA:16. -- this works because halflings are +2 to Perception and +1 to all saves, rogues have Perception as a class skill, and paladins are immune to fear and apply their CHA bonus to all saves.
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Btw, I loathe DEX:14 because there is no best-in-category armor which meshes with it, mithral or otherwise (aside from mithral full-plate + Belt of Physical Perfection +2) -- so it's a waste spending 3 build points going from 12>14 when they're better spent in some other stat. E.g., the build in the quote above could have 12 DEX and a 13 instead of a 10 in either STR for Power Attack or INT for Combat Expertise; suit up in ordinary cheap full-plate and be good to go.
I also like making my best stat an odd starting number; this makes it "even" from 4th to 8th (the dangerous levels when the power disparity between various tiers is acute) and 12th+ (final arc plus probably incredible dangerous post-retirement "special mission" type scenarios).
So, a 10 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 16(18) Cha could, with a little shuffling, instead be DEX:12, CHA:17(19) -- or STR:12, DEX:12, CON:14, INT:12, WIS:12, CHA:15(17) -- or STR:12, DEX:14(16), CON:12, INT:12, WIS:12, CHA:15
Keeping a character with those states alive, even as a spam-can cleric who spends a feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency, is going to be a horrible chore and a half (and, frankly, I don't think it can be done).
-- and the best your channels are going to be is 6d6, or ~18hp worth. While handy in a pinch after the bad-guy fireball soften-ups, you're killing your guy preemptively to give him a few extra.
Well such a build isn't really going to go much past 5th level I would imagine.
But yeah the stats do need work, but as an aside the 6d6 channel averages 21 (save for half) but by that point they've spent 10k to make it 8d6 which averages 28 (save for half). It doesn't much matter because by that point such damage is trivial, and wading into the center of the enemy to do it somewhere between suicidal and ineffective likely both.
But at low levels it could be fun, but I certainly think removing casting will curtail even the range of levels where it is viable.
-James
James,
I'm not sure where you get the "wading into the center of the enemy". Given the size of the area, it's generally possible to stay at least in the second or third tier of combatants.
But I will agree that the damage does not scale well with level. By the end of your career, you might be regretting the career path. The BBEG undead seem to grow in hit dice much faster than the channeler, and since you can't command anything with more HD than you, you find yourself competing with the BBEG for his own minions.
Not to mention that there's at least one or two BBEG's that are controlling undead through artifacts that totally let them get around the HD limitation.
