No Rogue only Ranger in our Group - how to detect magical traps?


Rules Questions


According to the rules you need "trapfinding" only the rogue has to disarm the magic trap.

we have a paladin, sorcerer, witch and ranger in our group.

is there any other way to deal with that? can the ranger take a feat or is a dip into rogue absolutely necessary?

Dark Archive

divby0 wrote:

According to the rules you need "trapfinding" only the rogue has to disarm the magic trap.

we have a paladin, sorcerer, witch and ranger in our group.

is there any other way to deal with that? can the ranger take a feat or is a dip into rogue absolutely necessary?

theres a ranger archetype that gives trapfinding


Name Violation wrote:
divby0 wrote:

According to the rules you need "trapfinding" only the rogue has to disarm the magic trap.

we have a paladin, sorcerer, witch and ranger in our group.

is there any other way to deal with that? can the ranger take a feat or is a dip into rogue absolutely necessary?

theres a ranger archetype that gives trapfinding

hmm the city stuff is not really an option..


With two primary casters, I think detection and bypassing magical "anything" is certainly doable. I'm AFB right now, but wouldn't most magical traps be vulnerable to detection, dispelling or simply destroying via spells?

Liberty's Edge

It's called "meat shield + wand of cure light wounds".

Trapsense is almost completely useless; a fair number of groups with rogues don't bother with traps, because it's faster to send the bag of hit points in.

If you've got a player that wants to play a rogue, great, you'll have to use less cure magic, and thus will probably get through things faster. If you don't have someone who wants to play a rogue, don't worry about it; trapfinding is not a critical ability.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Trapper Archetype for Ranger also has it.

Liberty's Edge

The days of needing a Rogue are long gone. If you are not willing to have the Ranger go Urban, then just suck it up and take the hits. Unseen servant can probably open doors for you so an traps there will be 'disarmed'.
Traps are few and far between and underwhelming, everyone can find and disarm them

Magic traps are even more rare, but my understanding is that everyone can detect them, only Rogues/Archetype Rangers/Archetpe Bards can disable them. But if you know they are there you can avoid them or just use magic to set them off or dispell


Trapper ranger is a viable option, allows you to deal with magic traps, also any ranger should have a decent perception, so they can at least find them as a vanilla ranger.

Just taking enervation traps to the face can be rough, also triggering every alarm spell is unwise, but the paladin should be pretty tough. The Pally could also take a 2 level dip into rogue to get trapfinding, the trap spotter rogue power, a boost to reflex saves and evasion.


-at will detect magic basically means the traps have a sign that says "HERE I AM!"

For dealing with the traps you have

-summoned monsters to set it off

-Unseen servant with a cart of rocks to set it off

-dispel it

-stone shape over it.

-poke it with a 10 foot pole

-Use charmed monsters to walk onto it.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

-at will detect magic basically means the traps have a sign that says "HERE I AM!"

Actually it means if you take a standard action each round, you can detect the presence of a magic aura within a 60ftcone. Magic Aura is a 1st level spell that lasts a Day per caster level. It will foil all those tricks.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

-at will detect magic basically means the traps have a sign that says "HERE I AM!"

Actually it means if you take a standard action each round, you can detect the presence of a magic aura within a 60ftcone.

A move action each round. The duration is Duration concentration, up to 1 min./level (D) Concentrating is a move action.

Quote:
Magic Aura is a 1st level spell that lasts a Day per caster level. It will foil all those tricks.

1) that requires a caster on hand to renew it

2) That allows a will save, since identify and detect magic are about as similar as you can get and still be separate spells.


Magic Rules wrote:
Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


A move action each round. The duration is Duration concentration, up to 1 min./level (D) Concentrating is a move action.

Not according to rules it isn't a move action.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


1) that requires a caster on hand to renew it
2) That allows a will save, since identify and detect magic are about as similar as you can get and still be separate spells.

But detect magic is a 0th level spell, and identify is a 1st level spell, so no, they aren't similar.

P.S. I cast Dispel Blave, DC 23.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

-at will detect magic basically means the traps have a sign that says "HERE I AM!"

For dealing with the traps you have

-summoned monsters to set it off

-Unseen servant with a cart of rocks to set it off

-dispel it

-stone shape over it.

-poke it with a 10 foot pole

-Use charmed monsters to walk onto it.

DM can be used to find magic traps, but it is not foolproof.

3 feet of stone, or a sheet of lead blocks detect magic. If you build that into the trap, detect magic won't find it until it is too late.

Magic aura can be used to suppress the magic aura of a magic trap.

Detect magic also requires the person using it to be in front. Otherwise, you will be constantly detecting the magic items of the other party members(which would then take several move actions to sort through). Most frail caster types are not too keen on being in front as this makes them vulnerable to the non-magical traps.


Yea, detecting a magic trap is just the same as detecting a magic item (or spell effect, depending on the kind of trap).

Quote:

Magic: Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.

A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level). Other characters have no chance to disarm a magic trap with a Disable Device check.
Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps.

But note dispel magic can supress the effect of a magic item for only 1d4 rounds, so yea a caster can detect a magic device trap and supress it, but they better move fast after!


divby0 wrote:

According to the rules you need "trapfinding" only the rogue has to disarm the magic trap.

we have a paladin, sorcerer, witch and ranger in our group.

is there any other way to deal with that? can the ranger take a feat or is a dip into rogue absolutely necessary?

Unless you're playing a pathfinder society game (where your only choice is to take the damage, really), just talk about it with your DM.

I'm a standard bard in a group without a rogue, but since I have such a high knowledge (engineering), he allows me to use that to decipher the workings of traps.

It's come up once. There was a floor set up so that a hallway would fill with flame when a certain amount of weight was put on it. So I jumped to the other side, found the mechanism and examined it as the group set it off with something heavy. My DM allowed me to use knowledge (engineering) to figure out what was going on when it was activated, then it's just a couple precision snips and it's disabled. I'm sure if the trap were magic he would have let me do an arcana or spellcraft check on it.

It may not be RAW, but it's a good way to not screw over a group because no one wanted to play a rogue.


Detect Magic, then Dispel Magic.


Andy Ferguson wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


A move action each round. The duration is Duration concentration, up to 1 min./level (D) Concentrating is a move action.
Not according to rules it isn't a move action.

Whoops.

For moving through the dungeon does it really matter?

BigNorseWolf wrote:


1) that requires a caster on hand to renew it
2) That allows a will save, since identify and detect magic are about as similar as you can get and still be separate spells.

But detect magic is a 0th level spell, and identify is a 1st level spell, so no, they aren't similar.

There is no actual rule about x level spell not working against Y level spell because Y is bigger. Identify says

This spell functions as detect magic , except that it gives you a +10 enhancement bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties and command words of magic items in your possession. This spell does not allow you to identify artifacts.

3 feet of stone, or a sheet of lead blocks detect magic. If you build that into the trap, detect magic won't find it until it is too late.

-those will all also stop the alarm's sensor from working to set off the trap. Line of sight goes both ways.


trap finding is only needed to disarm magic traps anyone using perception can find them
once you find them you have all sorts of options on how to deal with them

Liberty's Edge

BobChuck wrote:

It's called "meat shield + wand of cure light wounds".

Trapsense is almost completely useless; a fair number of groups with rogues don't bother with traps, because it's faster to send the bag of hit points in.

If you've got a player that wants to play a rogue, great, you'll have to use less cure magic, and thus will probably get through things faster. If you don't have someone who wants to play a rogue, don't worry about it; trapfinding is not a critical ability.

If you think traps are nothing to worry about, play a few PFS mods and get back to me.

A simple sliding chute managed to kill one of our PCs last week: he fell into a pool of sewage with an otyug, which grappled and pinned him and mauled him in the grapple until he was unconscious. It let go when the other PCs started rappelling down, but he slid under the muck and drowned before we could find him (the drowning rules are freakin' nasty).

The worst thing a trap can do is separate you from the party and leave you alone with a monster.


Easiest way to detect traps? Thrallherd. Minion 1, run down that corridor.

Alright minion 2 you're up next. This time duck.


roguerouge wrote:
Detect Magic, then Dispel Magic.

Have people actually done this?

At what level do they think that this becomes viable?

If you are encountering a single magic trap that is just CR=APL+1 for example, you wouldn't have a chance to dispel it until the CR stagnated at 9th level spells (CR 10) and the caster level stalled along with it.

It boils down to the group and the DM that you're playing with here how useful dealing with traps is for you.

Ask a few questions:
1. Does the DM use traps at all?
2. Are they merely wandering monsters or are they integrated into the other encounters?
3. Is bypassing a trap a useless little gold star, or very helpful to you?

Many people have DMs where traps rarely occur, their presence isn't taken advantage of by nearby creatures, and they rarely are forced into a situation where being cornered behind a trap is lethal to them.

Thus they conclude that dealing with traps is not useful.

If put into a campaign where social skills were never used they would (and likely did in the past) properly undervalue CHA.

If put into a campaign where there were no combats (or always trivial ones) would undervalue an optimized fighter.

Are they right? Well as long as you take into account the setting they are, but globally they are certainly not.

So ask yourself how useful dealing with traps is for your group by the setting that you find yourself in,

James


Ask a few questions:
1. Does the DM use traps at all?

-Yes

2. Are they merely wandering monsters or are they integrated into the other encounters?

-Two seperate points here

1) Your assumption that a trap is "merely" a wandering monster. I place traps the say way i place monsters: where they make sense. On the door to the vault, at the end of a false tunnel, and on the door to the dark shrine when the priests really don't want to be observed.

You do not trap the steps. you do not put a trap in the living room. You do not trap the broom closet. You don't want to have to recruit and train a new minion every time bob forgets to turn the key to the left or carries a bucket of water and hits the third step from the bottom.

You, in short, don't put a dangerous object in the path of your every day life for the same reasons that heavy machinery comes with safeguards. You know its dangerous,you know if you stick your hand in it it will rip your arm off, you know its there, but if you're around it for years eventually you will screw up. I know the world actually IS designed around the PC's existence but it shouldn't LOOK that way.

3. Is bypassing a trap a useless little gold star, or very helpful to you?

-Bypassing is useless. You don't know how far it is to the next monster , if the trap will do any real damage, and there's no mechanism for luring the next monster onto the trap anyway.

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