Underhanded rogue talent?


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15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

How is this talent supposed to work? It say's if you hit someone with a concealed weapon in the surprise round they take max damage. A surprise round only allows a standard or move action. Even with Quick Draw you can only draw a hidden weapon as a move action.

So does that mean the concealed and hidden are the same term, thus making this pretty useless unless you take the bandit archetype. Or is concealed just flavor text that means a weapon that you don't spend your standard action telling your enemies about, but instead hit them with it.


Andy Ferguson wrote:

How is this talent supposed to work? It say's if you hit someone with a concealed weapon in the surprise round they take max damage. A surprise round only allows a standard or move action. Even with Quick Draw you can only draw a hidden weapon as a move action.

So does that mean the concealed and hidden are the same term, thus making this pretty useless unless you take the bandit archetype. Or is concealed just flavor text that means a weapon that you don't spend your standard action telling your enemies about, but instead hit them with it.

To all those who were complaining about the sword cane being useless. Here's a use for one. A sword cane is a swift action to draw (free if you have quick draw).


Andy Ferguson wrote:

How is this talent supposed to work? It say's if you hit someone with a concealed weapon in the surprise round they take max damage. A surprise round only allows a standard or move action. Even with Quick Draw you can only draw a hidden weapon as a move action.

So does that mean the concealed and hidden are the same term, thus making this pretty useless unless you take the bandit archetype. Or is concealed just flavor text that means a weapon that you don't spend your standard action telling your enemies about, but instead hit them with it.

It isn't the RAW (which, as has been pointed out is kind of useless), but I think the idea is that if you use the "palm a coin sized object" action with sleight of hand to conceal a weapon (which is totally within the realm of the possible for a skilled palmer (palmist?), even though a dagger is much larger than a coin), then you could use this.

It could also be used with a spring-loaded wrist sheath, which makes drawing a concealed weapon a free action. But those aren't core.


Would it work with a natural attack (i.e. punch/kick)?


It's for betraying people. Get up to them, pat them on the back, and then stab them in the back. Surprise round started.


Cheapy wrote:
It's for betraying people. Get up to them, pat them on the back, and then stab them in the back. Surprise round started.

Clearly, this is what is for.

However, drawing a concealed weapon is a standard action. Quick draw only takes it to a move. During a surprise round you can only make a standard or a move action, which means if you draw your previously unnoticed concealed weapon... you are out of actions and can't attack with it until next round, at which point you don't get the maximum damage benefit.


In my opinion, surprise round doesn't start until you start swinging.

I do recall a feat that lets you stab someone after a successful diplomacy check.


Betrayal, that's it. Needs Persuasive and Quick Draw.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I was curious about that myself, then I saw this Rogue Talent:

Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a
Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it
in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

I'm not sure if this lets you conceal a weapon while still holding it (look, I found a quarter behind your ear), or if it lets you conceal it somewhere on your person even though you were obviously holding it in your hand moments before (you think it is in this hand, but tada, I have cleverly hidden it beneith my top hat).

If the first one is the right interpretation is correct, it would seem that you could use underhanded, because it is concealed, but doesn't need to be drawn, so you can use it during the surprise round.


Looks like the first to me.


Rats Archive wrote:

I was curious about that myself, then I saw this Rogue Talent:

Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a
Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it
in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

I'm not sure if this lets you conceal a weapon while still holding it (look, I found a quarter behind your ear), or if it lets you conceal it somewhere on your person even though you were obviously holding it in your hand moments before (you think it is in this hand, but tada, I have cleverly hidden it beneith my top hat).

If the first one is the right interpretation is correct, it would seem that you could use underhanded, because it is concealed, but doesn't need to be drawn, so you can use it during the surprise round.

I agree that it is the first.

I also agree that this would be a good lead in to underhanded. However, it also would appear to be the ONLY lead in to underhanded short of an ability to take a full round action during the surprise round, which makes it seem like underhanded should require one or the other as prereqs in order to protect people from taking it without the ability to use it.


It sounds like you need deft palm in order to do underhanded.


jgtn wrote:
It sounds like you need deft palm in order to do underhanded.

The bandit archetype can get a move and standard in the surprise round starting at fourth level. I am pretty sure there are a few other ways to get this as well. There are multiple means to making this feat work, but as written it is as useful to the rogue out of the box as metamagic.


Bascaria wrote:
jgtn wrote:
It sounds like you need deft palm in order to do underhanded.
The bandit archetype can get a move and standard in the surprise round starting at fourth level. I am pretty sure there are a few other ways to get this as well. There are multiple means to making this feat work, but as written it is as useful to the rogue out of the box as metamagic.

I agree...the only way around it I have found is to take the Quick Draw and as a rogue take the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick and then choose Hidden Weapons which states that a "ninja" with this ability can easily conceal weapons on her body. The ninja adds her level on opposed Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. In addition, she can draw hidden weapons as a move action, instead of as a standard action.

So I am concluding that since normally quick draw changes drawing a hidden weapon from a standard to a move action that this would change it from a move action to a free action.

I am guessing the text is wrong on Underhanded but until I see something otherwise this is my only viable solution.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rats Archive wrote:

I was curious about that myself, then I saw this Rogue Talent:

Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a
Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it
in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

I'm not sure if this lets you conceal a weapon while still holding it (look, I found a quarter behind your ear), or if it lets you conceal it somewhere on your person even though you were obviously holding it in your hand moments before (you think it is in this hand, but tada, I have cleverly hidden it beneith my top hat).

If the first one is the right interpretation is correct, it would seem that you could use underhanded, because it is concealed, but doesn't need to be drawn, so you can use it during the surprise round.

My guess on this is that depending on the weapon you can also make a sleight of hand check to hide/conceal the weapon anyway. The rogue could just hide a polearm without a high ridiculous DC.

There are several weapons which don´t look quite like weapon though.
A Kerambit, the bladed scarf, swordcane, improved unarmed strike, using a rope as whip with the rope trick feat and i´m sure there are more.
Also don´t forget throwing weapons like shuriken and others, which can be drawn free, hidden in a pocketed clothing.

The ninja has some nice tricks like disguising or hiding weapons for this.


Spring loaded wrist dagger!

Altair on that s+*#.


Andy Ferguson wrote:

How is this talent supposed to work? It say's if you hit someone with a concealed weapon in the surprise round they take max damage. A surprise round only allows a standard or move action. Even with Quick Draw you can only draw a hidden weapon as a move action.

So does that mean the concealed and hidden are the same term, thus making this pretty useless unless you take the bandit archetype. Or is concealed just flavor text that means a weapon that you don't spend your standard action telling your enemies about, but instead hit them with it.

Two things, one of which you already mention. 1) A new Rogue Talent from the Ultimate Combat rules:

PRD/Ultimate Combat wrote:
Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

2) Also the Bandit Archetypes gains this ability:

PRD/Ultimate Combat wrote:
Ambush (Ex): At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.


Also, although I suspect it would be a false interpretation of the intent of this talent, you could argue:

If your Rogue is concealed (under successful Stealth) at the beginning of a surprise round, and is holding a weapon ready, it’s reasonable to say the weapon is also concealed… Therefore, attacking from Stealth (with that concealed weapon) in a surprise round would max out your SA damage using the Underhanded talent.

Silver Crusade

Also, the "Betrayer" feat.


Sorry about the thread-necromancy, but I still don't see a satisfactory answer for this question.

I see three possible answers on how to use this discussed here:

1) Betrayer feat - looks like it would work, but that's pretty limited usage since it will only work on creatures that you have a chance to Diplomacy before they attack you. If they attack on sight, you can't use Betrayer.

2) Bandit archetype - looks like it works just fine, but it seems odd to have a Talent that is literally only usable for one archetype. And I do mean literally because:

3) Deft Palm - doesn't work at all because Deft Palm doesn't change the speed of the Slight of Hand. It's still a standard action. If you Deft Palm during the surprise round that consumes your action for the surprise round.

Unless you can Deft Palm way in advance and "hold that roll" as a measure of how well you've concealed the weapon you are holding for an extended period of time (at least several rounds). I think that would require a pretty generous ruling by the GM.

Silver Crusade

Platosbeard wrote:

Sorry about the thread-necromancy, but I still don't see a satisfactory answer for this question.

I see three possible answers on how to use this discussed here:

1) Betrayer feat - looks like it would work, but that's pretty limited usage since it will only work on creatures that you have a chance to Diplomacy before they attack you. If they attack on sight, you can't use Betrayer.

Limited usage, maybe, except if you know how to PROVOKE a diplomacy check... changing shape, disguise check, speaking another language, all this may be enough to enter diplomacy with even an ogre that would want to smack you on sight.

Quote:
2) Bandit archetype - looks like it works just fine, but it seems odd to have a Talent that is literally only usable for one archetype. And I do mean literally because:

It works with Deft Palm, Betrayer feat, and against creatures that didn't see you, so it's not pigeonholed, even if it obviously works easier with this archetype.

Quote:
3) Deft Palm - doesn't work at all because Deft Palm doesn't change the speed of the Slight of Hand. It's still a standard action. If you Deft Palm during the surprise round that consumes your action for the surprise round.

The whole utility of Deft Palm is to have your weapon already drawn when the combat begins, but so that your enemy is unaware of it. Drawing it doesn't require any action, so you may use your standard to attck with it and activate the Underhanded talent.

Dark Archive

There are a few ways, as mentioned above:

1.) Use a sword cane, which is a swift action to draw; or
2.) Use the Betrayer feat; or
3.) Use the bandit rogue archetype which allows for two actions; or
4.) Use the Deft Palm rogue talent to conceal a weapon while weilding it.
5.) Use a shuriken or a similar "ammunition weapon," which can be drawn as free actions.

The easiest option is Deft Palm. You simply hold the weapon, hidden "in plain sight." The coolest option, in my opinion, is Betrayer (the name of the talent is "Underhanded," after all).


Maxximilius wrote:
The whole utility of Deft Palm is to have your weapon already drawn when the combat begins, but so that your enemy is unaware of it. Drawing it doesn't require any action, so you may use your standard to attck with it and activate the Underhanded talent.

I understand that drawing the weapon is not the issue. I didn't mention drawing the weapon at all. According to the rules though, making a Slight of Hand check is a standard action:

"Any Sleight of Hand check is normally a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a move action by taking a –20 penalty on the check."

Deft Palm doesn't alter that description at all.

Unless the weapon is concealed with Deft Palm before the surprise round begins, it looks to me like the Slight of Hand check consumes your action for the surprise round.

If I've missed something on the timing I'd love to know, because I want use this talent - but I want to be confident I'm using it correctly.


Garden Tool wrote:

There are a few ways, as mentioned above:

1.) Use a sword cane, which is a swift action to draw; or
2.) Use the Betrayer feat; or
3.) Use the bandit rogue archetype which allows for two actions; or
4.) Use the Deft Palm rogue talent to conceal a weapon while weilding it.
5.) Use a shuriken or a similar "ammunition weapon," which can be drawn as free actions.

The easiest option is Deft Palm. You simply hold the weapon, hidden "in plain sight." The coolest option, in my opinion, is Betrayer (the name of the talent is "Underhanded," after all).

1) probably works - the surprise round rules say you can use free actions, but don't mention swift actions (swift actions consume a little more time than free - so probably need a GM ruling)

2) usable, but very limited in my experience - Maxximilius has provided suggestions above
3) agreed - as I say above
4) I still disagree - the Slight of Hand check granted by Deft Palm is still a standard action. The Deft Palm Slight of Hand check must occur before initiative or the Slight of Hand check is your surprise round action (again, it's the timing that concerns me)
5) agreed

I agree that Deft Palm lets you wield a weapon your enemies are not aware you have, but I don't see how you can use it *during* the surprise round and still benefit from Underhanded. *Before* the surprise, yes - I can see that working, but not *during*. Other than free action items like shuriken, which may be the intent, I don't see enough actions available to, for example, hide a dagger and then attack with that dagger.


Maxximilius wrote:
The whole utility of Deft Palm is to have your weapon already drawn when the combat begins, but so that your enemy is unaware of it.
SRD wrote:

Deft Palm (Ex)

Benefit: A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

I don't see how Deft Palm allows you to have a weapon considered DRAWN that is concealed.

To me, this reads that you're finding a place to conceal it (secret pocket), even though someone is watching you do it. Nothing else in the game mentions concealing a weapon in a specific way--like, not in a pocket--then it seems odd to allow it in this case. You'd think it would mention "still considered armed for the purposes of Attacks of Opportunity"--or any other number of differences that come with having a weapon drawn--if it were the case.

There's definitely the whole "now you see it, now you don't" deal, but more is just conjecture.

Original writer comments?

EDIT: Just to be a hypocrite with my own conjecture, what about:
Glove of Storing

"The item is shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen"
"Storing or retrieving the item is a free action."

No one sees the weapon, it pops into your hands instantly, and you make an underhanded (har har) stab!

Eh? Eh?

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Can you use Underhanded with a Bladed Scarf (ie its in plain sight, but not obviously a weapon)?

How about with a natural attack (I'm specifically thinking of the Prehensile Hair Hex my Rogue/Witch has)?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Okay, I see a lot of arguements that work. Deft Hands WOULD indeed work IF you had concealed the weapon before combat. It is entirely feasable for a shady character to walk around with a dagger (or possibly short sword) tucked partially in a sleeve or vest, which is the idea behind the talent. And I would agree with the Glove of Holding in the same way I would agree with any weapon that had Invisibility or Vanish cast on it. But, something a lot of people have been overlooking is the spring-loaded wrist sheath. Since you do get a swift action during a surprise round, you can draw it and attack in a surprise round. The only actual issue I have is whether a normal wrist sheathe would be affected by Quick Draw. (DM's call, but would be interested in an official ruling).

pH unbalanced wrote:

Can you use Underhanded with a Bladed Scarf (ie its in plain sight, but not obviously a weapon)?

How about with a natural attack (I'm specifically thinking of the Prehensile Hair Hex my Rogue/Witch has)?

As to these, issues, weapons that aren't recognizable as weapons can fairly confidently be concidered "concealed". However, natural weapons, not so much if you can't retract them. A tengu's beak is a little hard to concider "concealed", as would creatures known to have claws or teeth. The witch hair, however, could be rather easily concidered "concealed".

Sovereign Court

How about a touch attack with a spell-like ability? I'm thinking about either the Shadow Bloodline's power of Shadow Strike, or perhaps Major Magic rogue talent for Shocking Grasp (+3 against metal-bearers!).

Sczarni

Wouldn't the obvious way this would work would be to attack from concealment? If the player is concealed, the weapon is concealed... just saying... Thus you could take "soft cover" from a friend and use it with a 5 foot reach weapon (spear) or some such similar tactic. BOO - YA! Over the TOP of a FRIEND While Hiding in Plain Sight in a friend's shadow...


I was interested in trying this out with an Unarmed-based Rogue.

Would it work with an unarmed attack?
That would be a pretty awesome sucker punch, especially if you combined it with Sap Master.

Obviously super easy to 'conceal', as it's just your fist, lol.


Ravennus wrote:

I was interested in trying this out with an Unarmed-based Rogue.

Would it work with an unarmed attack?
That would be a pretty awesome sucker punch, especially if you combined it with Sap Master.

Obviously super easy to 'conceal', as it's just your fist, lol.

actually a ninja can pull this off if he is standing next too his opponent with just of course underhanded+hidden weapons if there light there hidden...can as a movement action draw both weapons...then attack great combined with say assassinate ability...against say a single guard...and if your dressed like the guard, or disquised as a friend...

unarmed if your a monk or ninja with unarmed in unarmed mastery...you coulf do a lot of damage..vs a mook or sentry...and then fade away...


PRD Charge wrote:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat.

You can charge an opponent in the surprise round but you need QuickDraw or something else to draw a weapon as a free action. Throwing a weapon is also possible but you need QuickDraw too.


I always take this:

Trait:
Veteran of Battle (CN): You have fought in several battles, and each time felt the presence of your god guiding your sword-arm, making you ready to act at a moment’s notice. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Initiative checks, and if you are able to act during a surprise round, you may a draw a weapon (but not a potion or magic item) as a free action during that round.
when I want to build a rogue.


I dont know why everybody is dodging the real answer.

Stop trying to do mundane things that are cool. Bend your knee and realize the power of magic. This game is magic, ot for mundanes. This talent work just fine with invisibility. So get invisibility.


Sorry to bring back a dead thread but I was building a rogue and looking at the Underhanded rogue talent. I believe that I may have a way to use this ability as is.

The ability needs some out of combat interaction with the target, likely through the Bluff skill. Using Bluff I can see several ways that a GM could realistically allow the user to draw the concealed weapon before the beginning of combat without the target realizing it.

Please excuse the long-winded example:

Your character is attempting to infiltrate the lords manor under the guise of a household staff member. Your mission is to secure sensitive documents from the lords own office while he is out of the residence. After picking the lock on the servant's side entrance you make your way to the second floor and down the hallway, only to find the office door guarded by a man-at-arms.

GM: The guard takes note of you but his Perception test fails to penetrate your disguise.

Player: I approach the door and try to enter the room on the pretense of cleaning it.

GM: The guard blocks your path and reminds you that no one is allowed entry while the lord is out of the manor.

Player: "Of course, of course. I can clean elsewhere for now." I move on down the hall a bit. Is there anything breakable in the hall?

GM: There are vases and nick-knacks decorating the area.

Player: Once the guard loses interest in me again I will knock over a vase.

GM: A priceless art treasure shatters against the carpeted floor. The guard looks your way but does not leave his post.

Player: I curse loud enough for him to hear and approach him again. I attempt to bluff him into looking at the broken vase down the hall, taking his eyes off me. "The nine hells, I am going to get a whipping for sure! Would you LOOK at that mess?!"

GM: Roll a Bluff test. He has accepted your disguise so it's unmodified... Ok, good. You succeed on the attempt and the guard looks away from you, down the hallway to the broken remnants of the vase. He is momentarily distracted.

Player: While he is looking away I draw the sap I have concealed up my sleeve.

GM: OK, you draw your weapon and as the guard's eyes return to you they go wide. He begins reaching for his sword. Roll initiative. As he was distracted and unprepared for your attack so you have a surprise round. He is flat-footed.

Player: I strike him with my sap for sneak-attack damage using my Underhanded talent..."

Thoughts anyone?


when does surprise round happen... after the surprise. so i see no reason you can't initiate the surprise with a stab (albeit that would be your surprise rd action). initiative is a player (not character) concept.

Sovereign Court

I dunno. If they've seen the weapon because you've drawn it, it's not really concealed anymore, is it? My thinking would be more like this:

Jack and Joe are standing next to each other watching the street performers. Joe thinks that Jack is his compatriot, but that's a sore error in judgement...

While Joe is distracted, Jack quietly slips a knife out of his pocket and inserts it into Joe's gut.

Joe's dead, and his corpse leans against the man behind him, who hasn't realized that Joe's dead; meanwhile Jack walks away saying something about getting them some beer.


Ascalaphus, I think that scenario works just as well. Any in-character method of getting someone you have interacted with to not be looking when you draw the hidden weapon should do. In your example I doubt a GM would even call for initiative as long as the target went down to the first hit and no one made a perception check to notice the attack in the commotion of a crowd.

Sovereign Court

That's what I think the talent is meant to do, but the rules-writing is a bit clumsy. If they meant it for this kind of thing, it would've been good to say so more explicitly.

Now we're stuck with questions like "are unarmed weapons like fists concealed weapons?" and "if I'm invisible, are weapons I'm brandishing automatically concealed"?


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hey Guys,

I see this question is marked as answered in the FAQ, but I couldn't find it when I looked. Can anyone provide a link to it?

Thanks in advance!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I can't find it either!

Scarab Sages

I don't see it anywhere in the FAQ either and I had the same question about how this trick is intended to be used. Unless they forgot to add a clause about this trick allowing you to draw and throw/stab as part of the same surprise standard action, it seems hard to pull off to me.


Bandit rogue with ambush and spring loaded wrist sheathes


Sheathes? It's a swift action to draw one, right? So wouldn't two be redundant? Or maybe it's an immediate action, I can't remember, but even still.


Really? A complaint about me using the plural form...c'mon man.

If you're using the wrist slot for one of them you might as well get 2...my assassin keeps a wand in one and assassin's dagger in the other.

Yes it's a swift action.


Oh, yeah. No complaint, just seeing if I remembered right. Wouldn't be able to draw them both in the same turn with the same sort of action.


Posted this in another thread already, just want to get maximum exposure.

All you sneaky backstabbers go get a rag. You're about to drool all over this post.

Sleight of Hand wrote:
Your training allows you to pick pockets, draw hidden weapons, and take a variety of actions without being noticed.

Also,

Sleight of Hand wrote:
Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

However,

Sleight of Hand wrote:
When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer's Perception check. The observer's success doesn't prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

So from this we get that you can have a weapon concealed on your person before you approach a target, say in your boot for example.

Then approach the target, say casually walking up to the towns lone gate guard.

Then make a slight of hand check and assuming you beat the targets (in this case, the guard) perception check, draw the weapon out and in your hand completely undetected and avoid a surprise round initiation at this point. To continue the the example, once you get near the guard you check your boot to see if that smell is something you stepped in (slip out the dagger or what ever here). Ok, so the guard didn't see the dagger come out and now you are standing there with a dagger in hand while he watches others come and go, or nods back off to sleep or what ever he was doing.

Then you can Initiate the surprise round by slamming the dagger into his temple which I can tell you, would surprise me. At this point, your Underhanded talent kicks off and your guards head becomes perforated and depending if you're high enough level or in a James Bond film perhaps he will tumble down the cliff and explode.

Tadah! Skills, who'd of thunk it?


Good suggestions, all around, but there's a very simple method to pull this off that I think is being overlooked:

A ninja who takes Vanishing Trick first, then Underhanded (so, by 4th level) can pull this off quite simply. I would argue that since everything you carry is invisible when you are, then the weapons you're using are considered hidden/concealed while you're invisible. Vanishing Trick is a swift action, so can be pulled off in a surprise round without using up your surprise round action. A rogue can do exactly the same thing by first taking the Ki Pool Rogue Talent before the other two (minimum 6th level to get the three talents). No Sleight of Hand checks needed, either. :)

Sovereign Court

I think the strict RAW is that a weapon cannot be both concealed and wielded at the same time. So MrPineapples' tactic doesn't work; if you drew the dagger before the surprise round, it's not a concealed weapon in the surprise round anymore.


Ascalaphus wrote:
I think the strict RAW is that a weapon cannot be both concealed and wielded at the same time. So MrPineapples' tactic doesn't work; if you drew the dagger before the surprise round, it's not a concealed weapon in the surprise round anymore.

I don't know about all that, but if he had this talent he could certainly do it.

PRD wrote:
Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

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