"baseline" combat (fighter) progression?


Rules Questions


(I'm not entirely sure that this is the right place to put this question, but it seemed like the most appropriate - Mods, if this needs to go somewhere else please feel free.)

Where can I find the "baseline" combat progression per level for PF? (IS there one?) More precisely, I'm looking for the "standard" build of a fighter at a series of levels (1,5,10,15,20 or similar), with level-appropriate gear/wealth/abilities; as well as the "typical" opponent he'd face at those levels.

I'm trying to determine the balance of some potential mechanic changes for an upcoming game (not really ready to discuss the changes yet until I have something to compare to), but haven't been able to locate a "Treantmonk's guide to fighters" equivalent.

(Also, if anyone could point me to something similar for SWSE, 3.5 or 4e I'd appreciate that as well.)

Thanks :)


Look at your monster tables in the back of the bestiary. The 'average per CR' chart specifically.

A level equivalent fighter should be able to avoid 75% of the hits from one of those, kill one in 2 rounds or less, and make its weak saves at least 40% of the time and be able to survive at least 2 full rounds of full attacks hitting. He also needs to be able to engage in both melee and ranged combat (though he can be significantly better at one than the other, he needs to be able to participate in both).

A 'high end' fighter will be able to do that for monsters 4 CRs or higher than his level.


Great, just what I was looking for, thanks!

Abraham spalding wrote:
A level equivalent fighter should be able to ... make its weak saves at least 40% of the time

By this, do you mean the fighter should be able to land a status condition (like Stunning Critical) against the monster's weak saves 40% of the time, or should be able to resist monster abilities which attack the fighter's weak saves (like a Pixie's entangle SLA) 40% of the time? (Or something else entirely?)


Tvarog wrote:

Great, just what I was looking for, thanks!

Abraham spalding wrote:
A level equivalent fighter should be able to ... make its weak saves at least 40% of the time
By this, do you mean the fighter should be able to land a status condition (like Stunning Critical) against the monster's weak saves 40% of the time, or should be able to resist monster abilities which attack the fighter's weak saves (like a Pixie's entangle SLA) 40% of the time? (Or something else entirely?)

So be able to resist with his weak saves about 40% of the time.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Look at your monster tables in the back of the bestiary. The 'average per CR' chart specifically.

A level equivalent fighter should be able to avoid 75% of the hits from one of those, kill one in 2 rounds or less, and make its weak saves at least 40% of the time and be able to survive at least 2 full rounds of full attacks hitting. He also needs to be able to engage in both melee and ranged combat (though he can be significantly better at one than the other, he needs to be able to participate in both).

A 'high end' fighter will be able to do that for monsters 4 CRs or higher than his level.

Did you get that from somewhere or is that your own assessment? I did not check it in detail, but it looks like a pretty good set of requirements :-)


Sangalor wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Look at your monster tables in the back of the bestiary. The 'average per CR' chart specifically.

A level equivalent fighter should be able to avoid 75% of the hits from one of those, kill one in 2 rounds or less, and make its weak saves at least 40% of the time and be able to survive at least 2 full rounds of full attacks hitting. He also needs to be able to engage in both melee and ranged combat (though he can be significantly better at one than the other, he needs to be able to participate in both).

A 'high end' fighter will be able to do that for monsters 4 CRs or higher than his level.

Did you get that from somewhere or is that your own assessment? I did not check it in detail, but it looks like a pretty good set of requirements :-)

Yes?

Here's how I built those requirements:

1. Combat is supposed to include 4~5 party members (this is from the section on creating encounters as the baseline of a party).

2. Combat encounters should last between 4~6 rounds and eat up 20% of the party's resources at equal CR. (Based on comments by the designers and various sundry things in the charts and what have you).

3. The fighter is supposed to be the guy that goes into the combat hot zone eating hits and dealing them out -- this is based on the fact that he has nothing 'special' that doesn't simply allow him to do this better.

4. Combat will 'typically' start with an opening round during which the fighter is either going to get no, or a single swing in as he moves to 'intercept' the enemy. The second round he might get in a full attack as the party and enemy position -- at this point he shouldn't be hitting his full combat potential since the party flanker isn't providing flank yet and buffs are just going up. Third round he should really be laying into the enemy -- it should just about be over and he's probably taken between a third and half his HP in damage (he's probably been hit once or twice each round out of about 3~5 swings per round on him). Fourth~sixth round should be clean up -- the casters are in full force either hurting the enemy's chances to hit through debuffs or helping the frontline hitting harder with buffs or simply blasting, the flanker should be fully engaged at this point and taking some of the hits as well. After combat some magical resources go into healing the fighter putting him closer to full and spreading the resource drain of the encounter.

In order for those metrics to happen the fighter needs to be roughly 75% immune to regular attacks, and able to absorb a couple of solid rounds of punishment -- he'll also have to just about finish an enemy in one~two rounds since in truth he's unlikely to get full attacks all the time (meaning it's going to take about 3~4 rounds instead).

5. The saves are based on the fact that 'minimum' and 'optimum' saves versus DCs always end up right around the 45%~55% chance for the caster to succeed. Using that we should guess that this is the minimum the fighter should be able to survive from his actual enemies since he's going to engage them much more often. Note that with party support his saves should increase in actual practice due to buffs/what not from allies.

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