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As the title asks: Does aura of courage make a Paladin immune to the intimidate skill? I know in the description it says "fear effects, magic or otherwise", but Intimidate is a skill, not an effect, yes? It seems weird to me that a class would be completely immune to a skill as of just 3rd level. That'd be like if rogues got a talent that meant their disguises could never be seen through as of just third level, or something like that.
As the title asks: Does aura of courage make a Paladin immune to the intimidate skill? I know in the description it says "fear effects, magic or otherwise", but Intimidate is a skill, not an effect, yes? It seems weird to me that a class would be completely immune to a skill as of just 3rd level. That'd be like if rogues got a talent that meant their disguises could never be seen through as of just third level, or something like that.
Intimidate is not tagged a fear effect, and paladins are not immune to the shaken condition. So it works. I guess.
Intimidate is a skill, but demoralize causes the shaken condition, which is a fear effect, so yes, he/she is immune... unless im wrong :P
The shaken condition from a flavor point of view is caused by fear, but it is not itself a fear effect. Something which is a fear effect will specifically be labeled "This is a fear effect." Neither shaken nor intimidate are labeled as fear effects, so the paladin is not immune to them.
As the title asks: Does aura of courage make a Paladin immune to the intimidate skill?
And grapple is an attack, and trip is a maneuver, and falling is movement. Don't get too sidetracked. Paladins are IMMUNE TO FEAR. Does Intimidate make you afraid?
If it makes you lazy, they are not immune.Stunned? Not immune.
Angry? No.
Happy? No.
Sad? Sleepy? Confused? Hungry? Lonely? No, no, no...
Afraid? Yes. Immune. No touchy.
Intimidate causes a mind-affecting fear based effect, and a morale effect. Anything immune to any of these is immune to intimidate. This includes, but is not limited to, oozes, undead, vermin, constructs, plants, and Paladins.
Edit: Disclaimer: Intimidate used for OTHER reasons, such as insulting someone (see the Jade Regent adventure path) Paladins are not immune to. Only for forcing cooperation, and demoralization.
We had the same conversation when it arose at our table and concluded the Aura > Intimidate.
Common sense, unfortunately, says that Demoralize is a fear affect.
If Demoralize is not a fear effect, then you'd be able to intimidate undead as well as Paladins.
Ya,it's pretty hard to imagine intimidating an ooze
As the title asks: Does aura of courage make a Paladin immune to the intimidate skill? I know in the description it says "fear effects, magic or otherwise", but Intimidate is a skill, not an effect, yes? It seems weird to me that a class would be completely immune to a skill as of just 3rd level. That'd be like if rogues got a talent that meant their disguises could never be seen through as of just third level, or something like that.
Well, barbarians are all-but immune to sneak attacks by 5th level. At 2nd level, they cannot effectively surprised/sneaked up on any more (which means the offensive uses of stealth are severely reduced, and you cannot sneak attack them when you act faster than them, sneak up on them, or are invisible), and at level 5, they all but become immune to flanking (the number one source of sneak attack opportunities). Sure, if you're a rogue 4 levels above them, you can overcome this immunity, but that's a difference big enough to make the barbarian an almost trivial enemy. So the only way you can sneak attack a barbarian (besides completely immobilising them) is to feint - something that usually requires a move action (at least) to set up, so your offensive potential is severely reduced.
Back to our paladin: Paladins are immune to fear. Intimidate works through fear. Ergo paladins are immune to intimidation.
Note that Intimidate is not the same as threats. You can make threats without using the skill. Intimidate is making a threat (direct, indirect or even implied) in a way that you get under the other person's skin. You play on their fear, overcome the rational part of their mind, and influence their behaviour.
A paladin is immune to fear, so you cannot Intimidate them. You can still threaten them, and they might even react to your threat the way you like, but it's because they have rationally decided to act that way.
Adjust your threats accordingly.
You can intimidate a, say, fighter, by telling him that unless he retreats right now, you'll beat him within an inch of his life, and them keep him there while you capture his family and friends and make him watch as you... Well, I won't tell you what I'm going to do. If you're so curious, just defy me - you'll find out then!
Make your Intimidate check and if you succeed he'll be afraid for himself and his loved ones, and this fear, which is probably at least partially irrational, will paralyse him and he'll give in.
Try the same on a paladin and it can go either way: If he thinks you can actually defeat him, can capture all those people and harm them, and believes that you really will do these things if he refuses but will not do them (and not harm the paladin himself) when he retreats, he might actually back down. If he's convinced he can take you, or that you cannot be trusted either way, he'll probably attack you, hoping to defeat you or at least buy time for his loved ones.
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Ya,it's pretty hard to imagine intimidating an ooze
It's easy. You just need a big spoon.
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Does Intimidate make you [...] Sleepy?
I now have a new Pathfinder insult:
"You're so boring you can make people unconscious with an Intimidate check!"
LOL.
Thanks so much for all the input everyone. TBH I can't believe this has never come up in one of my games before, it seems like it would. I think we always just assumed intimidate meant intimidate and didn't do a close enough reading of the Aura of Courage class feature.
Looking like the pally in my game is gonna be immune to the intimidate that a certain aboleth is trying to pull on him.
Ya,it's pretty hard to imagine intimidating an oozeIt's easy. You just need a big spoon.
Ha! Nice ; )
Or maybe a Big Straw? Slurpie anyone?
Demoralize is a fear effect, but a Paladin can still be intimidated. However, since a paladin doesn't feel fear, intimidate is probably not the best choice.
KaeYoss has covered the bases well.
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Yes. Rules wise.
You either "frighten" someone into agreeing with you. Its very obviously a fear effect, to which the paladin is immune.
Or you demoralize them, which is a fear effect, to which a paladin is immune.
I also can't see a paladin, who can walk up to a giant fire breathing dragon that can leave an entire army of hardened veterans wetting themselves, swat it on the nose and say "Bad lizard, no doughnut!" without batting an eyelash suddenly grow terrified of a street tough cleaning their nails with a dagger.
As the title asks: Does aura of courage make a Paladin immune to the intimidate skill?
And grapple is an attack, and trip is a maneuver, and falling is movement. Don't get too sidetracked. Paladins are IMMUNE TO FEAR. Does Intimidate make you afraid?
If it makes you lazy, they are not immune.
Stunned? Not immune.
Angry? No.
Happy? No.
Sad? Sleepy? Confused? Hungry? Lonely? No, no, no...Afraid? Yes. Immune. No touchy.
Intimidate causes a mind-affecting fear based effect, and a morale effect. Anything immune to any of these is immune to intimidate. This includes, but is not limited to, oozes, undead, vermin, constructs, plants, and Paladins.
Edit: Disclaimer: Intimidate used for OTHER reasons, such as insulting someone (see the Jade Regent adventure path) Paladins are not immune to. Only for forcing cooperation, and demoralization.
Actually id doesn't really say that Intimidate causes a mind-affecting fear effect. It says that target is shaken. Just because Fear spell has a descriptor Mind-Affecting, doesn't mean that all of them are.
It's a similar case with the Dazed condition. In its description there's no mention that it's a mind-affecting effect, but common way of making someone Dazed is through mind-affecting spells. So what happens when you use Dazing Assault on a someone who's immune to mind-affecting spells, say, a vampire? He sure as hell will be dazed, but he won't if you cast Daze Monster.
So, my point being, the distinction is not clear and there's ground for discussion. But what happens if you want to intimidate a paladin to improved his attitude for a short while? That doesn't provide a shaken condition that he may be immune to.
Actually id doesn't really say that Intimidate causes a mind-affecting fear effect. It says that target is shaken. Just because Fear spell has a descriptor Mind-Affecting, doesn't mean that all of them are.
So, you'd also say that the Terrifying Howl (Barbarian Rage Power) to make enemies panicked would not be considered a fear effect?
I'm puzzled as the shaken/frightened/panicked description says that it is a state of fear.
You misunderstood me. I never said that Paladins shouldn't be immune to Shaken condition, I'm just arguing whether they should be COMPLETELY immune to Intimidate skill, ie. improving their attitude for a while.
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Note that Intimidate is not the same as threats. You can make threats without using the skill. Intimidate is making a threat (direct, indirect or even implied) in a way that you get under the other person's skin. You play on their fear, overcome the rational part of their mind, and influence their behaviour.
Quoted For Truth. (QFT)
You cannot intimidate the Paladin, but you can engage in a meaningful little six second conversation with him as he chases you..
"Let me walk away, or I will dimension door into that orphanage down the road and drop a fireball on the second floor before I cast fly and go."
You misunderstood me. I never said that Paladins shouldn't be immune to Shaken condition, I'm just arguing whether they should be COMPLETELY immune to Intimidate skill, ie. improving their attitude for a while.
Yes. Immune.
'Improving Your Condition' in this case means "Do what I say or I'll break your floppy #$%&ing arm you shining golden champion of the weak and downtrodden, who is backed by the very will of the gods and wields the powers of holy light." See how it fails? That's what aura of courage means. When you call him a thick-headed stump-minded fool, he hears "shining golden champion of the weak and downtrodden, who is backed by the very will of the gods and wields the powers of holy light". It's supernatural. If you catch the Paladin in an antimagic field, you can intimidate him.
Intimidate IS a mind-affecting fear effect, based on morale. Once again... oozes, plants, undead, vermin, constructs, Paladins...
You cannot use Intimidate to make Flesh Golems friendly, you cannot use it to Gelatinous Cubes friendly, you cannot use it to make Shambling Mounds friendly, you cannot use it to make Paladins friendly. It doesn't really make anyone FRIENDLY anyway... it makes them compliant, as illustrated by another portion of the rules mechanic. The method by which it does this, is subtle or overt threat. That is the definition of intimidation. If you are confused by the uses of the skill, perhaps you need to clarify your understanding of the language.
(From Dictionary.com)
in·tim·i·date
verb (used with object), -dat·ed, -dat·ing.
1.
to make timid; fill with fear.
2.
to overawe or cow, as through the force of personality or by superior display of wealth, talent, etc.
3.
to force into or deter from some action by inducing fear: to intimidate a voter into staying away from the polls.
Synonyms
1. frighten, subdue, daunt, terrify. See discourage.
Shaken, Frightened, and Panicked, are all fear. Paladins are immune to these three conditions unless they are simulated by some weird source, such as... ... nothing even comes to mind. Most things that want to otherwise give you a -2 make you sickened. Paladins are flat out immune to fear.
It's a similar case with the Dazed condition. In its description there's no mention that it's a mind-affecting effect, but common way of making someone Dazed is through mind-affecting spells. So what happens when you use Dazing Assault on a someone who's immune to mind-affecting spells, say, a vampire? He sure as hell will be dazed, but he won't if you cast Daze Monster.
He sure as hell won't.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –5 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to daze opponents you hit with your melee attacks for 1 round, in addition to the normal damage dealt by the attack. A successful Fortitude save negates the effect. The DC of this save is 10 + your base attack bonus. You must choose to use this feat before making the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.
Vampires are immune to...?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Fortitude saves.
It is also not really a similar situation. Fear is in your head. It could be argued that a massive burst of unfocused adrenaline makes you afraid, but Paladins, supernaturally are immune even to that.
Don't be pedantic. I'm going to stop arguing with you now, because Mexico is not a state, and no matter how many times you say it is (barring you saying it for so long it gets annexed while we're having this conversation) it's still not a state. Since I am not going to waste another hour of my life arguing with someone that Mexico is not a state, or in this case that the definition of the word intimidate means 'to cause fear', I must stop arguing this as well.
===========
Aside:
Yes. I spent an hour arguing with someone that Mexico is not a state.
...
Shut up.
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Actually id doesn't really say that Intimidate causes a mind-affecting fear effect. It says that target is shaken. Just because Fear spell has a descriptor Mind-Affecting, doesn't mean that all of them are.
Yeah, there are plenty of ways to make someone shaken. There's vibrating plates. An electric toothbrush after Tim Tailor tuned it up.
Look up shaken. It's on page 563. Go and look what it is listed under.
Let me safe you the gas: It's listed under fear.
This could also work as a Bluff check, I guess. Well, paladins usually have a good Sense Motive bonus but they're not immune to being fooled.Note that Intimidate is not the same as threats. You can make threats without using the skill. Intimidate is making a threat (direct, indirect or even implied) in a way that you get under the other person's skin. You play on their fear, overcome the rational part of their mind, and influence their behaviour.
A paladin is immune to fear, so you cannot Intimidate them. You can still threaten them, and they might even react to your threat the way you like, but it's because they have rationally decided to act that way.
Adjust your threats accordingly.
You can intimidate a, say, fighter, by telling him that unless he retreats right...
Of course. He still gets to rationally weigh the options and decide. He just plays with an incomplete deck, and that Ace of Spades doesn't belong into a harrow deck.
Actually id doesn't really say that Intimidate causes a mind-affecting fear effect. It says that target is shaken. Just because Fear spell has a descriptor Mind-Affecting, doesn't mean that all of them are.
Shaken: A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.
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Actually id doesn't really say that Intimidate causes a mind-affecting fear effect. It says that target is shaken. Just because Fear spell has a descriptor Mind-Affecting, doesn't mean that all of them are.
Shaken: A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.
Yeah, reread Paladin and conditions and am convinced that Paladins are immune to demoralize.
The class feature tellingly does not say that paladins are immune to fear effects (in which case they would not be immune to intimidate since it is not a fear effect). Rather, they are just immune to fear. Shaken is indeed a state of fear, and so Paladins are immune.
Or, put in its most literal interpretation:
A Paladin is not immune to the demoralize action. It is, however, immune to the shaken condition, so demoralize will have no effect.
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What if the Intimidate skill is used to coerce an NPC paladin into a course of action using a threat?
Assuming the course of action is not forbidden to the paladin, can the Intimidate succeed?
"Sir Reginald, if you do not accompany my daughter to the Lord-Mayor's annual ball, I shall reveal an embarrassing secret about your family."
Can this Intimidate succeed?
Is a paladin automatically immune to being "afraid" of the consequences of noncompliance?
Is the Intimidate skill more broadly applicable than to strict "fear" effects?
What if the Intimidate skill is used to coerce an NPC paladin into a course of action using a threat?
Assuming the course of action is not forbidden to the paladin, can the Intimidate succeed?
"Sir Reginald, if you do not accompany my daughter to the Lord-Mayor's annual ball, I shall reveal an embarrassing secret about your family."
Can this Intimidate succeed?
Is a paladin automatically immune to being "afraid" of the consequences of noncompliance?
Is the Intimidate skill more broadly applicable than to strict "fear" effects?
Nothing stopping you from threatening an Aura'd up paladin (insert 'next of kin' joke here). But as stated upthread he will react to that threat rationally. He may well choose to bow to the threat if doing so is in his best interests and doesn't violate his oath. But there is pretty much no way that intimidate is going to make him do what you want.
Ya,it's pretty hard to imagine intimidating an ooze
I want to see the build that makes this possible.
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Ya,it's pretty hard to imagine intimidating an oozeI want to see the build that makes this possible.
Fast empathy
Greater wild empathy: Benefit: You gain a +2 insight bonus on wild empathy checks, and you may use wild empathy to duplicate an Intimidate check rather than a Diplomacy check
Ooze Whisperer Benefit: You may target oozes with spells and special abilities that normally only affect animals as if the oozes were magical beasts with Intelligence 1, though they gain a +4 bonus to their saving throws. You may use wild empathy to influence oozes as easily as you influence magical beasts with Intelligence 1.
I would NEVER scare the poor things though. Usually they're so nice if you rub their belly.
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Would you let someone intimidate vermin? a zombie? a plant? If you let intimidate work on a Paladin (with AoC) then you must let it work on those creatures because you have ruled it to not be a mind affecting fear ability.
It would be nice if they tagged intimidate a mind-effecting fear effect. They didn't. I do not allow Intimidate against paladins with Courage Aura. The intimidate means to frighten someone. That doesn't work on paladins.
I would say Intimidate is a fear effect when used to demoralize in combat. Quoted from the Demoralize section:
This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened.
The same wording exists in every other low-level fear-based spell, from Sotto Voce to Dirge. With the ACG, there's even Disheartening Display to make the intimidate check to demoralize increase the severity by one step further (shaken -> Frightened -> Panicked -> Cowering).
The pattern above is defined under the Fear special ability. I'm going to go with Intimidate to demoralize is fear-based, and therefore a Paladin, being immune to "Magical or otherwise" fear effects, is immune to it.
If you had some kind of weird ability to impose a different condition (such as sickened) on someone when making a demoralize attempt, then this would work on a Paladin. But shaken is specifically fear.
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If you had some kind of weird ability to impose a different condition (such as sickened) on someone when making a demoralize attempt, then this would work on a Paladin. But shaken is specifically fear.
Yes, it is a Fear condition, which, I would argue, the Paladin is immune to.
Now, the demoralize action, seems more appropriately defined, as a Morale effect.
This ultimately would mean, that although not immune to the effect, the Paladin would be immune to the condition said effect creates.
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Hi Random, welcome to the forums.
There's a time and date at the top of every post, and as you can see it's been a while since anyone posted here. You can also see that there's a certain joke that everyone makes.
Back to your post though, yes Paladins are immune to demoralize attempts
A fine sale.
See he's selling Black Onyx (which is a component of necromancy spells) so it's funny because it's another joke about "thread necromancy".