So again quoting the SRD
Special: Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range. For more on special qualities, see Special Abilities.
Notice that it doesn't say 'locate' it says 'detect'
So again quoting the SRD
Notice that it doesn't say 'locate' it says 'detect'
Special: Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range. For more on special qualities, see Special Abilities.
Which unless you're in a particularly smelly area or the creature that is trying to stealthily track you is basically an automatic check, to the point that I would probably rule that unless there are other circumstances, it's an unnecessary roll that just slows things down. Like any other sense, there will be enough times that it isn't automatic to keep it from being game breaking, but in the average situation, I would probably consider it automatic, or at least close enough to not be worth splitting hairs about it, at least as far as detection is concerned. Details regarding what you just detected may well require a higher DC, therefore require a roll.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Which unless you're in a particularly smelly area or the creature that is trying to stealthily track you is basically an automatic check, to the point that I would probably rule that unless there are other circumstances, it's an unnecessary roll that just slows things down. Like any other sense, there will be enough times that it isn't automatic to keep it from being game breaking, but in the average situation, I would probably consider it automatic, or at least close enough to not be worth splitting hairs about it, at least as far as detection is concerned. Details regarding what you just detected may well require a higher DC, therefore require a roll.
It's fine if that's how the GM wants to roll. However, scent is not some ability that always prevents ambushes, and in fact rarely prevents ambushes if only one animal has scent. Animals traveling with humans is not a rare thing, so people who have experienced ambushing people most likely have enough sense to know not to smell suspicious. When traveling with a diverse group there's bound to be lots of smells that come from just the party as well as all the smells of the forest passing by and the smells of the animals. Scent should be useful when locating a creature that is hiding, but an ambush is something that happens fast and surprisingly.
Using the excuse of having an animal as a solution to prevent ever being ambushed, even without good perception scores is cheap and rather munchkiny, nor is it necessarily supported by the rules.
Using the excuse of having an animal as a solution to prevent ever being ambushed, even without good perception scores is cheap and rather munchkiny, nor is it necessarily supported by the rules.
Right, but because
1) you can ambush from 35 feet away
2) You can ambush from 30 feet away from someone other than the party wolf
3) and most importantly, the creature with scent does not prevent the rest of his party being surprised any more than the half elf with skill focus perception making a perception roll prevents the entire party from being surprised. Normally this is mitigated by the creature with scent being an animal, and being fairly limited in its actions (mind you, my dwarven druid has been saved a few times by his pony's perception)
I can see scent having its uses, but a lot of the time it just isn't going to pan out how the player wants.
Take a shambling mound for instance.
Is the average adventurer even going to know what in the heck it smells like?
Smells like plants.
How about a Roper?
A Water Elemental?
A Stone Golem?
A Skeleton?
It might help out against bandits or goblins, but thats cool because its a feat, and you earned it.
However, even then, your average 1/2 orc PC might know, MAYBE, the scents of a few dozen monsters/humanoid races that he's seen firsthand.
He might know that the smell in the woods nearby is an ogre, but he's not likely to know what a gnoll smells like unless he's encountered them. Also things like goblinoids could get confusing. "Smells like goblins, lets get em!" turns into "Oh crap, it was bugbears!"
Kobolds are said to smell like wet dogs. Yar, wet dogs that have set up a mess of pits and deadfalls.
I like to use the scent ability/feat to give my PCs a chance against foes that it would work against, just recently they prevented an ambush by a lurking owlbear in the Kingmaker PbP we're running. (Druid constantly talking to her wolf) She was SoL with the shadows I put in one of the hexes near a cairn tho...
(Come to think of it the shadows turned out to be a bad idea all around.)
So again quoting the SRD
Notice that it doesn't say 'locate' it says 'detect'
Special: Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range. For more on special qualities, see Special Abilities.
Notice that it doesn't mention creatures. It only mentions a scent. Smelling a silver sword under a pile of garbage is one thing. Smelling a creature that comes within 30 ft. is another matter and is handled separately in the rules. The tremorsense rules immediately after your bolded quote mention creatures explicitly.
Quoting is a pain for me since I can only use my phone so bare with me.
Wolf, the interpretation I am using is simple and consistent with the rules. The Scent ability doesn't need to give DCs because those are already listed under Perception. Notice that there are some scents listed already.
So if we use the table, the DC to detect a human hiding in the bushes 30 feet away is:
0 (his scent is noticable)
+3 (30 feet away)
Total: 3
This means that unless something unusual comes into play, the scent ability gives a 100% chance of success.
Let's change things up a bit:
Human hunter uses deer urine to hide his scent (let's say that the Stealth Check is 15)
Strong smell placed 10 feet away
+3 for distance
+2 due favorable conditions for the hiding human (deer urine)
+5 for being distracted by strong scent
Total DC: 25
Now the scent abilitiy will still help because the creature gets +8. If he was just using his eyes, he would have a much harder time.
Quoting is a pain for me since I can only use my phone so bare with me.
I probably shouldn't since I'm at work, but okay...
...I'm bare. Now what?
Scent is an annoying carryover from when Listen, Spot, etc. were all separate skills. If Perception is supposed to be a catch-all for all 5 senses, then things like scent and tremorsense should simply provide a flat bonus to Perception. I use +8 for scent, +8 for tremorsense if you're standing on the ground, and they stack if the critter has both.
And, yes, this means that invisibility isn't just visual.
I use +8 for scent, +8 for tremorsense if you're standing on the ground, and they stack if the critter has both.
Just to clarify for other folks reading this thread: Those aren't Kirth's house rules, those bonuses are actually in the Perception skill.
Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range.
I can see scent having its uses, but a lot of the time it just isn't going to pan out how the player wants.
Take a shambling mound for instance.
Is the average adventurer even going to know what in the heck it smells like?
Smells like plants.
So you've smelled one yourself, have you?
Just to clarify for other folks reading this thread: Those aren't Kirth's house rules, those bonuses are actually in the Perception skill.
Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range.
Yes! The problem is that they included the bonuses, but then they didn't delete any the auto-detect text, which sort of makes the bonuses pointless within range. So for a creature with tremorsense 60 ft., it works like this:
Yes! The problem is that they included the bonuses, but then didn't delete the auto-detect text, which sort of makes the bonuses pointless.
Ah! I didn't pick up on that. (Although it's just tremorsense that says uses the term "automatically".)
That sounds like a good idea, actually. Do you do something similar with blindsense/blindsight?
The bonus isn't pointless, it's used to detect *scents* that are hard to detect.
For instance, smelling rotting garbage is a -10 penalty. What if you're 300 ft. away? The DC is 20. Scent gives you a +8 bonus on that check.
That sounds like a good idea, actually. Do you do something similar with blindsense/blindsight?
Haven't written up a detailed description yet, but they would negate specific Perception DC increases, rather than provide a flat bonus (for example, blindsight would negate the +20 Perception DC from invisibility).
The bonus isn't pointless, it's used to detect *scents* that are hard to detect. For instance, smelling rotting garbage is a -10 penalty. What if you're 300 ft. away? The DC is 20. Scent gives you a +8 bonus on that check.
That's fine, but in the core rules it auto-negates Stealth, invisibility, and a host of other sneak possibilities that are already at a huge disadvantage to begin with. I'm trying to provide rogues in particular with some added value -- I'd like the 20th level master thief to be able to sneak right past the dogs' noses while they're on guard duty, if his skill check is high enough.
The bonus isn't pointless, it's used to detect *scents* that are hard to detect. For instance, smelling rotting garbage is a -10 penalty. What if you're 300 ft. away? The DC is 20. Scent gives you a +8 bonus on that check.That's fine, but in the core rules it auto-negates Stealth, invisibility, and a host of other sneak possibilities that are already at a huge disadvantage to begin with. I'm trying to provie rogues in particular with some added value.
Scent doesn't quite auto-negate invisibility/stealth/etc.
For one thing, there are foils to scent. There are spells that render it useless.
Creatures using scent also don't pinpoint the invisible/stealthing guy -- it's just an alarm that says, "uh oh, someone's around here."
Is scent strong? Yes it is. I'm a bit curious why PF decided to break 3.5 convention and make scent access just a feat away. . . .
For one thing, there are foils to scent. There are spells that render it useless.
(Grinds teeth) My purpose is not to make the rogue MORE useless while making the casters even better. My purpose is to make a skilled character better on his own, so that he can sneak past guards BETTER than a wizard can. So I've added a foil to scent and tremorsense: a sufficiently high Stealth check.
If you want to use them as-is, I'm not stopping you. I'm simply describing what makes sense to me, which at least one other person has seemed to find useful.
Scent specifically says "A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet."
I don't see the word 'automatically' anywhere in there. All scent does is allow you to make an appropriate perception test when your other senses would not get one.
So if your opponent is stealthed and in full cover but is 60 upwind of you, you can make a perception test to smell him.
If your opponent is invisible and within 30 feet of you, you can make a perception test to smell them and since your specifically using a non visual sense you might even make them lose that +40 stealth modifier.
But scent does not mean you know where they are with no tests. Nowhere in the ability does it say it bypasses the standard skill tests for detecting another creature.
If your opponent is invisible and within 30 feet of you, you can make a perception test to smell them and since your specifically using a non visual sense you might even make them lose that +40 stealth modifier.
But scent does not mean you know where they are with no tests. Nowhere in the ability does it say it bypasses the standard skill tests for detecting another creature.
True but without mitigating scents the DC is 0. The check itself falls into the passive non move action perception check line of perception. By the RAW you cannot fail a skill check on a roll of 1. therefore you can go through all those steps every-time and roll needlessly or realize that and grant that they succeed, with the caveat above.
True but without mitigating scents the DC is 0.
I just reread scent and perception and I canot find where it says that. What am I missing?
Smelling SMOKE is DC 0 but smoke is a relatively strong odor, similar to mild garbage. Smelling most creatures is far more difficult, especially if they have taken steps to cover their scent (like by smoking themselves and their clothes or laying strong animal urine or even rotting animal carcases around or near a planned ambush sight) or if they are stealthing (which scent would still have to counter with a perception check, as per the rules).
There are still distance modifiers (-1 per 10 feet distance) on the smell/perception check. If the character is simply walking along and not expecting any trouble, like traveling with companions, they could even be distracted (-5) by talking/passing the time, etc or if they are in melee they could be distracted to anything they are not currently within 5 feet of. Traveling long distances gets boring and it is not unreasonable to talk with your traveling companions and get involved in converstations or arguments or stories. If it is a windy day scents would be dissipated quickly, making for unfavorable (-2) or possibly terrible (-5) conditions for smelling, depending on how strong the wind is and where the 'smeller' is relative to the target. If your in camp for the night and you have a campfire then the smoke will be a competing smell. Also if you group cooks meals that too could be a competing & distracting smell.
Obviously not all ambushers can know that people have scent (it is unusual for most standard PC's to have it IMO) but if your of a race known for it and your ambushers know this, they will usually take appropriate measures to minimize their smells. ESPECIALLY if the attackers are a race WITH scent themselves, or are a culture that has a good knowledge of hunting in the wild.
Nowhere in scent does it say you can bypass the perception and stealth rules. It merely gives you additional opportunities to make a perception check that gives you an advantage.
I just reread scent and perception and I canot find where it says that. What am I missing?
Its a standard perception check; the target (most likely, without houserules) does not have any concealment versus your sense of smell and therefore cannot use Stealth to hide from it, and therefore the DC to notice them is 0 (they are effectively a "visible creature" to you).
Its minor extrapolation, but entirely consistent with the rules.
And yes, its a pain... its a powerful ability. Is it completely unstoppable? I'd say its far less powerful that Darkvision in a lot of cases, honestly; I can't tell you how many low level things annoyingly drop darkness in an enclosed area and my non-dwarf/halforc is now near-completely helpless against them...
I just reread scent and perception and I canot find where it says that. What am I missing?Its a standard perception check; the target (most likely, without houserules) does not have any concealment versus your sense of smell and therefore cannot use Stealth to hide from it, and therefore the DC to notice them is 0 (they are effectively a "visible creature" to you).
Its minor extrapolation, but entirely consistent with the rules.
And yes, its a pain... its a powerful ability. Is it completely unstoppable? I'd say its far less powerful that Darkvision in a lot of cases, honestly; I can't tell you how many low level things annoyingly drop darkness in an enclosed area and my non-dwarf/halforc is now near-completely helpless against them...
Krispy covered it everything else you give is what I call...
wait for it...
Mitigating circumstances (in this case scent) but I will agree distractions etc do apply which I clearly caveated in my post. Please make sure that you actually read the post before you try and dismiss a position to make sure that the writer hasn't already accounted for what you wrote.
It's a powerful ability, but remember the range we are talking here. In most circumstances, it's going to require being 15-30 feet away from the thing just to activate the ability, and usually no more than 20 feet, and often less, when distance penalties and other circumstance modifiers are applied, and it still doesn't pinpoint anything unless the invisible creature is directly in front of the creature with scent. I don't care what level you are, if you don't do anything to mask your scent (and there are plenty of non magical ways to do so, both personally and by oversaturating the environment with other scents), if you try to pass that close to a creature with the scent ability, you will be detected.
I don't care what level you are, if you don't do anything to mask your scent (and there are plenty of non magical ways to do so, both personally and by oversaturating the environment with other scents), if you try to pass that close to a creature with the scent ability, you will be detected.
Agreed. Plus try to remember that most Pathfinder settings are medieval-ish style fantasy worlds and for the most part are not sterile, clean environments.
When you head out camping, for example, you smell smoke from peoples campfires, the smell if the woods and dirt, posisbly the odors of rotting vegetation if your out in a forest (fallen trees, rotting leaves, etc.), animal scat or musk or dead animal smells and these are the smells that we can smell with our normal human noses.
These smells all get even more powerful for those with scent (since if we can smell them then a more powerful sense of smell will sense them even more), and then they have to try to penetrate/sort through those smells to notice the ones that might be important to them, which might not be as powerful as the background smells are.
Yes scent should be useful, but it should not be automatic and folks should take a good long logical look at the encounter area before making scent checks.
And while saying 'you don't have cover' versus my sense of smell is a possibly valid house rule, then smoking ones clothes and self, or applying powerful but innocuous animal or plant scents on oneself should be a valid means of getting 'smell cover' and then stealth would then again apply.
Talk to any hardcore hunter. They can tell you.
Stuff
Talk to any hardcore hunter. They can tell you.
Again we are speaking about mitigating circumstances in all of the things you cite I don't think any one is disagreeing with you that there are techniques and approaches that can and should be used.
HOWEVER, if you don't use them or more importantly allow or make the check secretly for the player who's feat, racial or class trait, spell, etc given scent ability then you are denying by omission the players something that they have decided is important enough to spend a resource on and that, TO ME, is being a bad GM. Make them succeed on the check if mitigating circumstances necessitate it if its an auto win let them be aware and not waste time rolling. They built the character to be more aware of their surroundings to not grant them that leads to loss of character fidelity, which seems to be the issue that leads to frustration and the bad kind of drama at the table.
Quoting is a pain for me since I can only use my phone so bare with me.
Wolf, the interpretation I am using is simple and consistent with the rules.
Mine is simpler and even more consistent. Note that the rules under scent are specific for finding creatures, while the scent bonus under perception is finding anything. One is a rule for detecting creatures, the other is a rule for detecting everything else.
The Scent ability doesn't need to give DCs because those are already listed under Perception. Notice that there are some scents listed already.
But scent DC's are already listed under survival, and yet there are completely different DC's under scent.
So if we use the table, the DC to detect a human hiding in the bushes 30 feet away is:
0 (his scent is noticable)
+3 (30 feet away)
Total: 3
Human hunter uses deer urine to hide his scent (let's say that the Stealth Check is 15)
What in the stealth rules indicates that it is effective against scent? It specifically says that it covers hiding and moving quietly. No mention is made of the skills ability to hide your odor.
I realize that scent really sucks for stealth based characters. So do the rest of the stealth rules.
Also, deer urine is great for hiding from deer. Against wolves... not so much. "YAY DINNER!" is probably the last thought you want the druids animal companion to have.
Yes scent should be useful, but it should not be automatic and folks should take a good long logical look at the encounter area before making scent checks.
And while saying 'you don't have cover' versus my sense of smell is a possibly valid house rule, then smoking ones clothes and self, or applying powerful but innocuous animal or plant scents on oneself should be a valid means of getting 'smell cover' and then stealth would then again apply.
Talk to any hardcore hunter. They can tell you.
In most average cases, coming that close, it will be basically automatic, even with competing scents, unless you take measures to avoid it. Assuming you are starting from DC 0, you have to take significant measures to overcome the guaranteed +8 (and even higher if they are trained in the skill), even if the environment bumps the starting DC to 4 or so, which is what I would probably consider most typical medieval environments. Masking your own scent with the scent of something else takes virtually no time and oversaturuating the environment with a lot of competing strong scents is also quite easy, but it does take at least some effort to avoid being smelled at 5-15 feet away by a creature with scent, which is the effective range we are talking about.
If you are trying to track or ambush someone in an open natural environment at that close of range without taking extra steps to avoid being noticed, you will, and should, fail if someone in the group you are tracking has scent; the environment will not be enough by itself to force a roll. Even cities won't automatically force a roll; the average neighborhood is still clean enough a creature with scent could usually tell something was off, even if they couldn't identify the precise reason.
Plus try to remember that most Pathfinder settings are medieval-ish style fantasy worlds and for the most part are not sterile, clean environments.
Top 10 Myths About the Middle Ages #6
Sure, there were probably peasants who had less sterile, less clean areas, but it wasn't like they totally ignored hygiene. Also, since this is fantasy, in a land with loads of magic, I'm sure they'd be much cleaner than historically, and a lot cleaner than rumored.<.< sorry for derailing...
And while saying 'you don't have cover' versus my sense of smell is a possibly valid house rule, then smoking ones clothes and self, or applying powerful but innocuous animal or plant scents on oneself should be a valid means of getting 'smell cover' and then stealth would then again apply.
There are rules for concealment versus sight and remaining quiet. There are no such rules for smell, sadly, which concealing yourself on that front entirely GM reliant. Which in my mind, makes concealment from Smell a house-rule situation.
Sure, there were probably peasants who had less sterile, less clean areas, but it wasn't like they totally ignored hygiene. <.< sorry for derailing...
Hence why I said medieval-ish. While the vast majority of civilised people WILL be clean, a lot of your enemies probably will not, like orcs, goblins, gnolls some barbarian tribes of nearly any species, etc. Also I was mainly referring to the environment, I should have been clearer.
Most of us live in area's with clean running tap water, interior bathrooms, in countries with good sewage and water filtration, garbage handling, etc due to our level of technical and scientific advancement.
Most "medieval-ish" will have some or possibly all these policies but they will most likely not be at the level we have today.
Walk around Waterdeep and I bet your gonna step in some horse dung and smell some interesting waste flowing in the street, for example.
Of course depending on setting and campaign and the just how prolific magic is, it could be as good or better than our own world. Ebberon is a setting where I would think the civilised area's would be as clean as our real world is today, for example.
But if your out in the wild, then there are lots of amazing smells that can and will compete when using the scent ability.
I agree if you use a feat it should give you an advantage but it should not be an advantage that is so strong as to compeltely be foolproof.
Also keep in mind that it doesn't matter how regularly you bathe. if you spend a day doing strenuous activity like walking through a dungeon, you're going to sweat and smell. If you do it in leather, you'll reek to high heaven, and if you do it in a suit of plate armor, chainmail, and a cloth sweater to keep the links out of your skin HUMANS should be getting bonuses to scent you from downwind.
I’m with BigNorseWolf. Unless there are mitigating conditions like overpowering scents or something like walls or water concealing/blocking the creature’s scent, the scent ability allows you to smell the creature within the ranges given under the ability. If what it really means is you simply get a bonus to all scent based perception checks, it should state that in the ability.
I see where people are coming from when they use the text in perception to come to that conclusion (it is just a bonus). However it reads to me like that text is for all scents not just creatures’ scents which are explicitly covered under the scent ability. Though scent just granting a bonus to perception would be simpler, it doesn’t make much sense within the context of the ranges in scent’s description.
It also doesn’t make sense given that scent allows you to smell things a creature without scent cannot smell – other creatures' natural scent on the wind. A skill focus in perception for example doesn’t give you better hearing or eyesight (or sense of touch or smell) it just makes it more likely that you notice sights, sounds, ect that you are naturally able to sense. A character with 0 perception bonus can still, with the luck of the dice, notice a sound their party member with a +10 perception didn’t. If better perception means better senses then that doesn’t really make much sense. What makes sense to me is that a creature with scent can smell things creatures without it can’t and additionally are more likely to smell things any creature with a sense of smell can smell. So scent grants the ability to detect creatures (that have a smell, animals and the like) within the ranges given and a +8 bonus to perception to detect scents.
I'm with the crowd that says sent is not auto.
Its powerful to say the least, but considering that every single wizard had the the ability since 3.5 of sent via their highly intelligent familiar..
I'm with the crowd that says sent is not auto.
Its powerful to say the least, but considering that every single wizard had the the ability since 3.5 of sent via their highly intelligent familiar..
Scent has always been auto-detecting -- for all of 3.0, 3.5, and PF. There's been no rules to indicate otherwise. All PF has done is make it easier to get scent. . . sometimes just a feat away. I don't think that's a good idea, at least given the legacy behavior of the scent ability.
And as a GM, I snicker every time a wizard-playing player picks arcane bond item over a familiar (:
|
I just thought I'd add that the Perception check can be useful for better roleplaying. In fact I encourage my players to cast the die while asking the question, 'what do I see?'
E.g. - What do I smell? (Roll d20)
Roll of 5 - You're picking up a new scent. Possibly a person. You're not sure.
Roll of 10 - You're picking up a new scent. Leather armor and sweat.
Roll of 20 - You're picking up a new scent. Multiple unknowns in leather armor with freshly rosined bowstrings.
Roll of 30 - You detect four human males, ages between 15 and 25, probably from Cheliax, armed with bows and reeking of anticipation.
Stuff like that.
|
|
I'm in the auto detect camp, or that its a base DC0 to detect someone with scent, which can then be modified if you use something to mask your scent. Just as you can auto detect with vision if someone does not have cover.
Has anyone seen the 13th Warrior?
When they are formulating a plan to sneak into the main bad guys lair they ask "Can we sneak in?" The answer was "Perhaps, if they don't have dogs..."
See, here's my problem. If Perception assumes you're trained with all five senses, then why, for the love of Gary, does Stealth not assume the same thing? When a rogue hits a DC 40 on his Stealth check, as the DM in my games I'm accepting that he's using his training to keep unseen behind cover, AND using his training to minimize the sound of his footsteps, AND using his training to foil scent.
I can understand that people want scent to be an auto-detect because they think it's more "realistic." That's fine for them. I would never play a rogue in those games, and I'd damn sure have a familiar and hence be unsurprisable, but whatever. In my own personal game, I want Stealth to have some usefulness, rather than being nerfed into oblivion by an ability that almost every party has at 1st level. YMMV.
See, here's my problem. If Perception assumes you're trained with all five senses, then why, for the love of Gary, does Stealth not assume the same thing? When a rogue hits a DC 40 on his Stealth check, as the DM in my games I'm accepting that he's using his training to keep unseen behind cover, AND using his training to minimize the sound of his footsteps, AND using his training to foil scent.
The scent one gives off is a lot harder to turn on and off than choosing between regular walking and stealth walking. If as part of the rogue's SOP, he is routinely taking measures to control his scent, than I wouldn't have a problem factoring that in, but most players rarely, if ever, do things to hide their character's scent because it comes up so rarely. To me, it's getting them to consciously recognize that scent is powerful, and a simple comment every now and again to make it clear they are aware of that aspect of stealth would be all that I personally would be looking for. Scent may not be technically automatic, but it does start at DC 0 just like every other sense check, and they need to be aware of that, especially with how easy it is to get scent now.
|
|
It's kind of like the frustration with lack of facing and stealth requiring cover. Unless the thread I read took a different turn, you can't sneak up on someone while their back is turned with no cover/ concealment. Happens all the time outside of the game...
What are you using to cover your scent? I understand the problem highlighted by Kirth and the frustration.
As for the perception bonus granted by scent, is it similar to the bonus given for swim checks if you have a swim speed? Thus you don't need to make a swim check normally if you have a swim speed, but in the event that you have to make an exceptional check you have a bonus.
Stealth Skill states: If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
I agree with those that placed some limitation on animal companions, familiars and mounts regarding their perception of the scent and communicating that.
See, here's my problem. If Perception assumes you're trained with all five senses, then why, for the love of Gary, does Stealth not assume the same thing? When a rogue hits a DC 40 on his Stealth check, as the DM in my games I'm accepting that he's using his training to keep unseen behind cover, AND using his training to minimize the sound of his footsteps, AND using his training to foil scent.
I can understand that people want scent to be an auto-detect because they think it's more "realistic." That's fine for them. I would never play a rogue in those games, and I'd damn sure have a familiar and hence be unsurprisable, but whatever. In my own personal game, I want Stealth to have some usefulness, rather than being nerfed into oblivion by an ability that almost every party has at 1st level. YMMV.
So you never played a rogue in 3.X? (:
Stealth is useful. Most humanoids don't have scent.
I think a more useful skill to foil scent would be the disguise skill (you "appear" as a different scent -- or no scent). In fact, I'd seriously consider allowing a disguise check vs. perception check (with the +8 bonus) to prevent scent from working.
I agree with those that placed some limitation on animal companions, familiars and mounts regarding their perception of the scent and communicating that.
Well, generally speaking a familiar is going to be able to use that empathic link to convey danger or fear. Early on, that's about all you'll get -- but it's still a "combat alarm" for the most part. Later when the familiar can speak to the caster, it's pretty much "there's something bad over there" type stuff -- maybe more depending on how. . . familiar the familiar is. . . with the scent.
most players rarely, if ever, do things to hide their character's scent because it comes up so rarely.
My perception is that it comes up constantly, if not ubiquitously. Nearly every party has at least one familiar, animal companion, or even PC with scent. Most monsters that don't have scent keep critters in their lairs that do have it. For an ability that ubiquitous to be that powerful offends me on a game-design level, however "realistic" people find it to be (and, for the record, nothing about D&D/PF is "realistic," in my book -- that's part of why we play).
So you never played a rogue in 3.X?
With infinite regret, I stopped playing mundane characters as soon as I realized that the changes to the combat, skills, and casting systems had turned D&D 3.0 into Ars Magica II. 3.5 and Pathfinder aren't much of an improvement, if at all, which is why I now run a homebrew game.
The only times Stealth works for visual is when there's cover or concealment. It's pretty much assumed someone is visible when they can't use stealth.
The problem with smell is that it goes around cover or concealment, that normally hides visual. You need some other kind of "concealment" (likely masking odors, etc).
This is why I'm for the DC 0 approach. If someone is using Stealth (and we either assume they are trying to mask their smell, or they specifically call out that they do), then Stealth increases that DC.
The reason it's "mostly automatic" is because most of the time you don't have cover or concealment for your smell (like you could more easily with visual stealth), and at a DC 0 (with a +8 bonus) you are guaranteed success.
I'd have to say though, that most people who focus on stealth, and especially Rangers, would be making an effort to mask their smell as well. Considering how many creatures out there hunt by smells, it'd be silly for someone with a dozen ranks to not consider that aspect.
I can understand that people want scent to be an auto-detect because they think it's more "realistic." That's fine for them. I would never play a rogue in those games, and I'd damn sure have a familiar and hence be unsurprisable, but whatever. In my own personal game, I want Stealth to have some usefulness, rather than being nerfed into oblivion by an ability that almost every party has at 1st level. YMMV.
-Its not a matter of what i want its a matter of what the rules say. That scent nerfs stealth i'm not going to deny, but if you go through the nitty gritty of the stealth rules then most other things nerf them as well.
-Its not a matter of what i want its a matter of what the rules say. That scent nerfs stealth i'm not going to deny, but if you go through the nitty gritty of the stealth rules then most other things nerf them as well.
Exactly. And that's precisely why I houseruled it. I'm not trying to argue RAW here (which should be clear from statements like "in my personal game"), because my feeling is that the RAW suck in this case. What I am interested in, though, is the number of people who tell me that houseruling to make Stealth actually function somewhat is "not realistic" -- because my stance is that what makes a game more realistic quite often makes a game less fun to play.
Sent is like opening a book to a random page and perceptionizing one word on the page.
Just because the word doesn't have cover or concealment, doesn't mean you automatically see that word and truthfully perceive it.
There is a HUGE difference between seeing something and actually perceiving it.
For example, I was watching Hellsing today, and there was these big blast of fire. Everyone was like "Oooh Angels! Angels have come to save us!"
But no. Even though they saw it, they didn't perceive it as MEGATON DEATHBOMBS! Until you know.. they got megaton deathed.
This is what the perception roll is for. Just because you are not familiar with a chainsaw doesn't mean you are stupid enough to try to wear a live one (as in, turned on) as a hat.
Tremorsense doesn't tell you that there is a 4 foot three inch tall halfling with blond hair, trained in the arts of fist to face style who has six fingers on his left hand weighing rough (with gear) about 186 pounds.
It told you there was a vibration. Now roll for perception to figure out what that vibration is. Which would give you somewhere in the ball part of a 4 foot three inch tall humanoid weighing roughly about 186 pounds, due to power of the vibrations and the frequency.
Even with sent its the same thing. There is always other sents when you are with your party. The wizard carries bags of animal fecal matter, and various other dead things. The fighter hasn't taken off his armor since level 1. The barbarian is always covered in blood.
If you sit in a room with five other people who constantly are talking, dancing and making other noises and a sixth person walks in and farts.. Do you think you are really going to hear that fart? You might just hear a noise, but ultimately not realize that someone new just farted.
You have to perceive it as a fart, before its too late and you smell the attack.
|
|
It's kind of like the frustration with lack of facing and stealth requiring cover. Unless the thread I read took a different turn, you can't sneak up on someone while their back is turned with no cover/ concealment. Happens all the time outside of the game...
What are you using to cover your scent? I understand the problem highlighted by Kirth and the frustration.
As for the perception bonus granted by scent, is it similar to the bonus given for swim checks if you have a swim speed? Thus you don't need to make a swim check normally if you have a swim speed, but in the event that you have to make an exceptional check you have a bonus.
Stealth Skill states: If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
I agree with those that placed some limitation on animal companions, familiars and mounts regarding their perception of the scent and communicating that.
It bears noting that this is just a side effect of there being no such thing as 'behind' in Pathfinder. All creatures are assumed to be facing all directions at once. As in, there is no such thing as facing.
It isn't meant to be realistic, but intends to solve other complexities.
|
|
Animal scent is a very powerful tool.
http://knol.google.com/k/canine-senses-how-dogs-smell#What_Dogs_Can_Smell
It would be like saying, make a perception check to see a person standing in the open within sight. Animals can differentiate between different smells. "In tests dogs have been able to pick up chemical solutions that form one or two parts in a trillion. That is the equivalent of smelling one bad apple in two billion barrels"
Being able to detect a presence within 30ft is mild in comparison.