Thanks to everyone who helped me create a character last week for a home campaign. This question is unrelated to that character, which I am happy with so far. But, in less than two weeks, the local Pathfinder Society group will start the new season of play and everyone will make new characters to use for a few weeks (or more if desired). That sparked this new question.
I am interested in trying to play a tank who also has versatility outside of tanking. To clarify, I don't mean a tank who can also damage. I mean a tank who has combat or non-combat utility beyond tanking, whether this is via skills, spells or combat maneuvers.
Is this possible? What would be good examples of a flexible skill tank, spell tank or tactical tank? Don't feel obligated to end this discussion after I make my character in a week or so. This is an interesting thought experiment to ponder, I think, even after that.
A wizard focusing on battlefield control
"Tanks" as is generally understood help stop melee enemies. And only melee enemies.
A wizard focusing on battlefield control stops melees, ranged support, and casters.
Plus they can get Teleport, scrying, etc.
A wizard focusing on battlefield control
"Tanks" as is generally understood help stop melee enemies. And only melee enemies.
A wizard focusing on battlefield control stops melees, ranged support, and casters.
Plus they can get Teleport, scrying, etc.
How would a wizard focus on battlefield control? And, by the way, I generally greatly enjoy your posts in the forums, Cheapy. They're very helpful.
By the way, part of what sparked this line of thought for me was that spellcasters are disproportionately represented in parties during local Pathfinder Society play. Tanks and skill monkeys -- in contrast -- are quite rare. Sometimes I participate in groups with no tank at all or anyone able to assume an equivalent role, and I have never participated locally in a Pathfinder Society group with more than one rogue/skill-monkey. (Keep in mind that the parties are assembled more or less randomly.)
- A dragon disciple tank gets spells
- A pallytank gets spells and diplomacy
-A druid tank can get whatever they heck they want. the pet tanks they spell, tank, melee damage, .. or you can have two tanks.
-tactical tank: Improved trip, a reach pole arm (guisarm?)
-Tactical Monk tank: improved trip and a guisarm, insane mobility, and hard to do in with a charm person.
-Summoning heavy cleric. A tank that summons more tanks! (clerics can take heavy armor prof. without interfering with spells right?)
(clerics can take heavy armor prof. without interfering with spells right?)
Correct.
Wizards and Druids make wonderful tanks in the truest sense of the word. In order to be an effective tank you need to be able to keep your melee enemies at bay. This can be done with effective crowd control (difficult terrain, etc.) and something that makes them stay (summoned critters, status effects, etc.).
Pally's are increasingly getting spells that actually engender tanking forcing an enemy to attack them.
A Pally/ sorc/ Dragon disciple could add to those with their sorcerous spells to enhance battle field control.
Monk's now have some reach weapon options to augment their maneuver master style battle field control
Both benefit from some of the new dimension door combat based feats in UC.
Oracle of battle/ Cleric with heavy armor *Might* be the best general infielder as you have spells to stop possession/ enchantment, Boost energy resistances, true seeing, striking incorporeal undead, banishing summoned critters, messing with teleportation. And more average HP than a sorc/wizard doing the same things. The cleric has the whole spell list; the oracle must pick and choose but adds enlarge person and some other bonus spells and gets a maneuver line of their choice.
I suspect that certain Inquisitor builds as you can judgment for both Fast healing and AC and take protection for the domain may work well in this vein but I am not sure if they possess the ability to force an opponent to combat with them outside of the antagonize feat.
Phalanx Soldier is an unmerciful tank that is one of my favorite iconic builds when you think of a tank.
A note with summoning as tanks: it shouldn't be your only party tank. Its very easy to get surprised or loose initiative, leaving your party's soft underbelly exposed for people to move in. Summons are a 1 round cast, meaning you have to spend the first round at least
on that note, summoner's edilions can get some pretty good armor classes, and stay out almost perpetually.
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In this thread I describe a Rogue tank that wears heavy armor, carries a shield, and eventually sneak attacks all the time regardless. He has full capability as the party face, as a bonus.
Check out the Holy Vindicator PrC. You could build a fierce Paladin/Life Oracle/Holy Vindicator that could take on pretty much everything and reach level 12 with a BAB +11, heavy armor, and clerical spellcasting to level 8.
In this thread I describe a Rogue tank that wears heavy armor, carries a shield, and eventually sneak attacks all the time regardless. He has full capability as the party face, as a bonus.
I had never thought of a rogue tank before. Yet, even with the greater AC, wouldn't the lower hitpoints be problematic?
In this thread I describe a Rogue tank that wears heavy armor, carries a shield, and eventually sneak attacks all the time regardless. He has full capability as the party face, as a bonus.I had never thought of a rogue tank before. Yet, even with the greater AC, wouldn't the lower hitpoints be problematic?
I have to imagine you'd take a level of fighter at least just to get the heavy armor proficiency not to mention shield proficiency.
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I have to imagine you'd take a level of fighter at least just to get the heavy armor proficiency not to mention shield proficiency.In this thread I describe a Rogue tank that wears heavy armor, carries a shield, and eventually sneak attacks all the time regardless. He has full capability as the party face, as a bonus.I had never thought of a rogue tank before. Yet, even with the greater AC, wouldn't the lower hitpoints be problematic?
And the proficiency in warhammer or whatever big martial weapon you want to use, too, yes. And, as for the lower hit points, it's an average of -1 hp per level, with the exception of first (the fighter level). So it's not too bad, regardless. I've also worked it out so that you've got some freedom in feat choices (the big ones you want are Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Power Attack, and Vital Strike) so you can take Toughness if you're worried about HP.
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Really quickly, here's the build at level 11, assuming 20pt buy:
Half-Elf Fighter 1 / Rogue (Rake and Scout) 10
Str 20
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 12
BAB +8
Init +0
Fort +7
Ref +7
Will +3
HP 81 (assuming 10 at first, 5/level after that)
Racial Abilities: Multitalented (Fighter and Rogue), Adaptability (Skill Focus: Bluff) FC Rogue bonus: +1/2 for feinting and gathering info
Class Abilities: Sneak Attack +5d6, Rake's Smile +3, Bravado's Blade, Scout's Charge, Skirmisher, Surprise Attack, Weapon Training (Warhammer), Bleeding Attack, Combat Trick (Vital Strike), Hunter's Surprise
Feats: Skill Focus (Bluff), Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Feint, Weapon Focus (Warhammer), Furious Focus, Shadow Strike, Vital Strike, Antagonize, Dastardly Finish
Bluff +24 (+29 when feinting)
Diplomacy +17 (+22 when gathering info)
Perception +16
Sense Motive +13
Use Magic Device +15
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) +14
Appraise +14
Disguise +14
Intimidate +14
Here's the feat and power chain:
Race: Skill Focus (Bluff)
1: Ftr, Combat Expertise and Power Attack. Skills: Bluff, Perception, UMD.
2: Rogue from here on out, sneak +1d6, Bravado's Blade
3: Improved Feint and Surprise Attack
4: Sneak +2d6 and Rake's Smile +1
5: Scout's Charge, Weapon Training (Warhammer) and Furious Focus
6: Sneak +3d6
7: Rake's Smile +2, Bleeding Attack and Shadow Strike
8: Sneak +4d6
9: Skirmisher, Combat Trick (Vital Strike) and Antagonize
10: Rake's Smile +3 and Sneak +5d6
11: Hunter's Surprise and Dastardly Finish
I haven't chosen any traits or equipment in this build, so that's all still up in the air.
9: Skirmisher, Combat Trick (Vital Strike) and Antagonize
I think I would replace Vital Strike with Greater Feint instead, which would allow for both attacks that round to be sneak attacks after a successful feint. That sounds like it would be more useful.
Despite the -1 to Perception, Sense Motive and Will saves, I think I would raise Dexterity to 12 and drop Wisdom to 8. The additional +1 armor (and +1 Reflex saves) is small but even so seems relevant for a tank build.
I would probably also delay Power Attack until level 3 and get Improved Feint at level 1. Power Attack is nice but not essential at level 1. Improved Feint would still have some value at such a low level and it would be nice to have at level 2 alongside the first rogue level.
All in all, a clever unorthodox tank build, InVinoVeritas.
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Honestly you people :) A tank should be a heavily armored fighter. Always, i think its a rule...hmm let me look it up but i am sure tank=fighter (it must) generic male human fighter.
All this stuff about alternates, variations. why is it that vanilla fighters only seem to be NPC's. sigh.
on another note...Paladin Rogue, sneak attack smite...hmm.
Another approach: dual cursed gnome oracle of nature.
I´m going to play this one in a kingmaker campaign.
Taking Whispers of Nature lets you dump dex for cha. With a shield, being small and armor your AC will be quite good (20-21 at frist level).
Using spells to tank: command and murderous command, later being able to buff your AC and using other spells in melee.
Using Bonded Mount gives you a wolf. He can take the aoo´s you can´t (due to having no weapon and generelly very bad attack stats). You can control another enemy with him via ok AC and trip. Using his int 6 lets you take the bodyguard feat chain. He can either shield you or your allys without you having to spend your action.
=Armored Castertank with leader qualities (socials skills with high cha) using an AC = great versatility
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9: Skirmisher, Combat Trick (Vital Strike) and AntagonizeI think I would replace Vital Strike with Greater Feint instead, which would allow for both attacks that round to be sneak attacks after a successful feint. That sounds like it would be more useful.
Despite the -1 to Perception, Sense Motive and Will saves, I think I would raise Dexterity to 12 and drop Wisdom to 8. The additional +1 armor (and +1 Reflex saves) is small but even so seems relevant for a tank build.
I would probably also delay Power Attack until level 3 and get Improved Feint at level 1. Power Attack is nice but not essential at level 1. Improved Feint would still have some value at such a low level and it would be nice to have at level 2 alongside the first rogue level.
All in all, a clever unorthodox tank build, InVinoVeritas.
Thanks. I like your suggestions, as well.
Thinking more about it, possibly Vital Strike isn't the weak link, but Antagonize is. Trade it out and you can get both Vital Strike and Greater Feint at the same time. Your action choices become feint and Vital Strike (with sneak attack), flank or feint last round and full attack (with sneak attack), move and Vital Strike (with sneak attack), or charge (with sneak attack).
Honestly you people :) A tank should be a heavily armored fighter. Always, i think its a rule...hmm let me look it up but i am sure tank=fighter (it must) generic male human fighter.
All this stuff about alternates, variations. why is it that vanilla fighters only seem to be NPC's. sigh.
on another note...Paladin Rogue, sneak attack smite...hmm.
generic fighters only have one good save (too vulnerable to mind control) and cannot fly on their own (you cannot block what you cannot reach).
I do believe that one of the first replies did mention a reach maneuver fighter as an excellent battle field control tank.
It appears that fighters are amazing damage dealers in PF but lack some of the traits that make someone a neigh unstoppable moving wall.
Honestly you people :) A tank should be a heavily armored fighter. Always, i think its a rule... All this stuff about alternates, variations. why is it that vanilla fighters only seem to be NPC's. sigh.
For me, I shy away from straight fighters because I like to have access to more skills than a fighter offers. A high intelligence could offset that, but then why be a fighter? Being human also helps with skill points of course (+1 per level at least). So would a favored class bonus. But for a fighter I'd rather use the F.C. leveling bonus for hit points.
I will probably try out the armored rogue idea in a week and a half and see how it runs in actual play. I will keep the suggested Antagonize feat after all, I think, and pass on Greater Feint. I may also change a few skills. My two traits will both boost my Bluff ability. But other than that the build will be as outlined above.
Thinking more about it, possibly Vital Strike isn't the weak link, but Antagonize is. Trade it out and you can get both Vital Strike and Greater Feint at the same time. Your action choices become feint and Vital Strike (with sneak attack), flank or feint last round and full attack (with sneak attack), move and Vital Strike (with sneak attack), or charge (with sneak attack).
It's an interesting build. Close to an idea I've been puzzling with for a while. I was thinking of throwing Shatter Defenses in there, though. Somehow. I figure it would mesh really well with Bravado's Blade. Not sure if it could fit in there somehow... Dazzling Display becomes somewhat of a feat tax.
Clerics are under-represented in this thread. They tank differently. They make someone else the tank. Casting Shield Other on just about any front line ally makes a huge difference. The cleric can then use its channel energy for twice the effectiveness. Combined with some of their other buffs, like Shield of Faith, they can really be effective in making someone else who normally can't tank well, like a rogue or monk, into an iron wall.
Clerics are under-represented in this thread. They tank differently. They make someone else the tank. Casting Shield Other on just about any front line ally makes a huge difference. The cleric can then use its channel energy for twice the effectiveness. Combined with some of their other buffs, like Shield of Faith, they can really be effective in making someone else who normally can't tank well, like a rogue or monk, into an iron wall.
They can also be tanky in and of themselves. I wanted to play a tanky Cleric and I went with a Cleric of Besmara. I took Trickery for Mirror image and War for the nice damage bonus and versatile feat selection at 8th level. nothing says tank like a mirror imaged cleric with his ac buffed to the stratosphere. They also can't ignore me because I will start dropping Confusion, hold persons and murderous commands.
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I am interested in trying to play a tank who also has versatility outside of tanking. ...I mean a tank who has combat or non-combat utility beyond tanking, whether this is via skills, spells or combat maneuvers.
A few simple rules to make that work:
Rule #1: We do not dump our CHA, and we take the Dangerously Curious trait for UMD (unless we have rogue or bard levels and don't need it). (In PFS you can cashier 2PA for 750gp items, such as 1st-level wands.) A Circlet of Persuasion will be on your shopping list.
Rule #2: We do not dump our INT (because we need the skills points, and we'd also occasionally like to beat the DC of a Knowledge:Local check). Unless we can dump it and then "get it back" with some sneaky build tricks. Alternatively we take a high-skills class like rogue.
Rule #3: We do not dump our attack-bonus to pay for this MAD-statting...so how to do it?
The answer (thank you, Ultimate Combat): Urban Barbarian archetype (which you can multiclass into almost anything else without rendering it suboptimal).
- - - - -
STR:12 ...elf
DEX+19
CON-12
INT+10
WIS:12
CHA:10
00 b0 01 04 01 traits: Berserker of the Society, Elven Reflexes
01 b1 03 06 02 barb1 [urban archetype], [Crowd Control], Extra Rage (13r/day)
02 b1 03 08 02 rogu1 [rake archetype], SA+1d6
03 b2 03 09 02 rogu2 [bravado's blade], Evasion, Talent:Finesse Rogue, Dervish Dance
04 b3 05 12 02 rang1 DEX>20, [guide archetype], [ranger's focus]
05 b4 06 13 02 rang2 Cleave [two-handed weapon style feat], Quickdraw
06 b5 07 13 02 barb2 Rage 15r/day, Uncanny Dodge, Reckless Abandon +1
07 b6 08 13 03 rogu3 [Rake's Smile], SA+2d6, Trap Sense +1, Lunge
08 b7 08 14 03 rogu4 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Talent:Weapon Training(Weapon Focus:Scimitar)
09 b8 10 14 03 figh1 CON>13, [weapon master:scimitar], Power Attack, Improved Critical:scimitar
10 b9 11 14 03 figh2 [weapon guard +1], Critical Focus
11 10 11 15 04 figh3 [weapon training +1], Combat Reflexes
12 11 12 15 04 figh4 CON>14, Weapon Specialization, Stand Still
Equipment: +1/Keen adamantine scimitar (11,015), Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (15,000), Celestial Armor (22,000), Gloves of Dueling (15,000), Boots of Speed (15,000), +3 Cloak of Resistance (9,000), +3 Mithral Light Quickdraw Shield (10,057), Pale Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone (8,000, STR+2), Incandescent Blue Sphere Ioun Stone in Wayfinder (8,250; WIS+2, resonates Blind-Fight), Pale Green Ioun Stone [cracked, type1, att +1] (5000), Pale Green Ioun Stone [cracked, type2, saves +1] (5000), MW composite longbow STR+1 (500), Various wands (Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, etc).
Appearance: dresses like a cleric to invite ranged-touch attacks and AoO spells.
Fighting style: Quickdraw ranged weapons when appropriate; use Quickdraw to stow/retrieve Quickdraw Shield before/after Dervish Dance scimitar attacks.
Build benefits:
* gets at least 3 skills/level despite dumped INT; ten points at 9th
* ranger, barbarian, rogue and fighter skills lists
* free-action enemy nerf (Bravado's Blade); alternatively ditch Rake and keep Traps
* BAB11 @ 12th
* Cleave and Lunge early without Power Attack (comes later after Belt purchase)
* Dervish Dance off DEX 24 at 4th level via Controlled Rage
* Furious, Reckless, Weapon Training and Ranger's Focus all stack
Build draw-back:
* horrid will-save; must avoid appearance of front-line tank at all costs
* delays high DPR damage to obtain skills and unique abilities early
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Thanks to everyone who helped me create a character last week for a home campaign. This question is unrelated to that character, which I am happy with so far. But, in less than two weeks, the local Pathfinder Society group will start the new season of play and everyone will make new characters to use for a few weeks (or more if desired). That sparked this new question.
I am interested in trying to play a tank who also has versatility outside of tanking. To clarify, I don't mean a tank who can also damage. I mean a tank who has combat or non-combat utility beyond tanking, whether this is via skills, spells or combat maneuvers.
Is this possible? What would be good examples of a flexible skill tank, spell tank or tactical tank? Don't feel obligated to end this discussion after I make my character in a week or so. This is an interesting thought experiment to ponder, I think, even after that.
I've been working on a Sythesist / Paladin multi-class that is extremely durable, can force opponents to attack him, has access to substantial out-of-combat magic, and has a few really good skills.
The one thing he is not: high dpr. All evolutions have been used for ability increases / defense / maneuverability. Forget the claws, I'll stick to my iterative attacks. (An evolution point into wing buffet is a possible though.) Within the scope of PFS, my BAB will only be 1 - 2 points behind a pure fighter. My higher base str will compensate.
Points of interest:
lesser evolution surge can be used to arbitrarily grant you a +8 bonus on any skill you can already use or complete immunity to the energy type of your choice. Something no other class can do.
Evolution Surge + Enlarge = Huge. Plus you can still fit indoors for dungeon crawls.
Permanent fly at 5'th level summoner.
With both high stats & divine grace, you won't be failing many saves. (Charisma can start at 18 - 20 depending on your build. I started mine at 18 so I could get decent bonuses on int & wis skills.)
You've got the charisma to really use / abuse intimidate / diplomacy. You can use these to help control the battlefield.
You can have the highest UMD in the game. Period. No exceptions. (see lesser evolution surge.)
The Duelist PrC offers some fun tankiness.
You can get there by many, many roads. Heck, you could even be a Musketeer cavalier (not bad skills, good BBEG focus abilities), have a gun and a rapier and Buckle Your Swash.
You can Parry, which is an active defense, for you or an Ally and you can be doing that at 8th level.
An Elf for the Dex and Int, which would be the key stats. Int raises your skills for out of combat goodness and Defense with Duelist.
Your HP might not be hot (-2 Con, also depending on what path you take to get there.) but you have some defense options.
Heck, a Monk (or a Monk/Duelist using Bich'wa or Fighting fan or something) would have great saves, good mobilities, good skills, some awesome feat options from Ultimate Combat for doing tanky things.
You could even do the Monk/Duelist with the right style that turns your Unarmed damage into Piercing, which would let it apply for the Percision duelist damage and all that good stuff. And then you can use one of your several billion flurry attacks to parry.
With some reach weapon options available to monk perhaps a maneuver master with the crane style and the fly/ air walk feats could be a solid tank. I would have to play around with it a bit to see if it really does the job.
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The Duelist PrC offers some fun tankiness.
You can get there by many, many roads. Heck, you could even be a Musketeer cavalier (not bad skills, good BBEG focus abilities), have a gun and a rapier and Buckle Your Swash.
You can Parry, which is an active defense, for you or an Ally and you can be doing that at 8th level.
An Elf for the Dex and Int, which would be the key stats. Int raises your skills for out of combat goodness and Defense with Duelist.
Note that once your DEX+INT bonus combination reaches +8, you've maxed out all available armor in the game for the purposes of Duelist.
(The build I submitted above is DEX 26 (+8) as early as 4th level w/Belt +2.)