I'm not finished analyzing CC#6, so I'm unwilling to post my review in the product section at this time, but I thought I'd begin to share my thoughts in the discussion forum.
Every CC module up to this point has roughly followed the following template:
- be led by the nose to an urban location where things have recently started to unravel
- once at said urban location, it is not immeadiately clear what the players should do, prompting open-ended exploration
- this exploration eventually leads to investigation, always with published tiers of DCs for various Knowledge checks
- the first half of modules are RP-intensive with highly conservative/xenophobic locals, and this runs in parallel to the investigation aspects
- with the exception of book 1, this RP&investigation always leads to some sort of moral quandry or ethical dilemma
- once the bulk of the investigation & RP is done, evidence leads to a dungeon that is always located "just outside of town"
- this dungeon features mostly above-CR opponents culminating in an endboss that requires some non-traditional tactics to face and overcome
This is a fine template to follow, and is what the PCs are accustomed to and expect. To the point where there's a selection-effect going: if you've played through long enough to be starting book 6, then you must really like the above format, or else you would have bailed a long time ago.
So why does this module break so severely from this format?
From a "cool, thematic dungeon-crawl angle", this module delivers, and delivers in spades. Easily 5 stars. Excellent writing, haunts, encounters, and creepy thematics. It evokes the same feeling I had when reading the Temple of Elemental Evil for the first time (and that's high praise). I want to play epic gothic battle music just when reading the damn thing.
However, from a "appropriate conclusion to the Carrion Crown adventure path angle", I have to say I'm a dissapointed, or at least feeling some whiplash. It doesn't "fit" with what's come before it. All along this adventure path, we've been enjoying lots of RP, some tough ethical quandries, and lots of head-scratching problem-solving. However, come this issue, while it will be great fun hearing the read-aloud text and experiencing some of the evils (esp. the Tyrant's Whispers; amazing ideas there), all of that is still receptive, ie GM-to-PC, with no interaction. It's one-directional. There is no chance for the players to meaningfully respond, like we've gotten in the other books.
Yes, there are the knight of Ozrem; I didn't overlook those. But they feel like a small part of the narrative, and are easily dimissed as a wandering monster or random encounter, and can't compare to the level of RP/dilemma that we've seen earlier in the path. But I am glad they are there.
This seems to be a bit of a trend in Paizo APs. The final book tends to be a bit of a hack-fest. (Which is sad, because final-books are always high-level, and high-level hackfests have their own suite of problems.) I wished CC was different. Alas.
Kingmaker spoiler:
Taking context into consideration, if I were rating this today, I would give it 3 stars. Does anyone else feel likewise? Let me know if I'm off my rocker. I'm open to changing my mind.
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I agree that it ends with a really big change of pace, but I think it works as an arch.
The plot was revealed at the end of Ashes at Dawn. All of their investigations has lead to this and now they rush to save a man's life, and then to destroy the monster behind it all.
It's like Dracula, where the end becomes a massive chase and battle, knowing where the monster was headed and trying to get there in time. But instead of trying to stop the Way from getting to ground, the PCs have to stop them from completing their plans.
All of their investigations have lead them to this point, and they know exactly what is at stake. Unlike Kingmaker, where the final chapter comes right out of left field, Shadows of Gallowspire gives them a chance to finally bring the fight to the enemies they have been dogging through the entire path. It lets them stop being investigators and take all of their knowledge and put it to use in one fell blow.
It's a necessary change of pace, one that gives them a chance to act on all of the anxiety and fears that they have been building up throughout the path. It's the catharsis of finally rushing to put things right while balancing on the edge of the sword, fully knowing what the price of failure will be.
By the sixth book, the characters should be ready for that run. And like Van Helsing chasing Dracula, they have to navigate their own dead ends and traps (by getting through to the necessary places and obstacles). The might be able to recruit allies, they may be able to employ stealth. But this is the climax of a horror story they have (hopefully) gotten very involved in, and the tension has to receive several more severe ratchets before it can be released.
Mr. Freund has some mighty kind things to say up there! Wow! That SoG invoked the same feeling as your first read through Temple of Elemental Evil is perhaps the highest praise anyone has ever paid my work. I am truly humbled.
As for the disparity between SoG's structure and all that came before it, it is true that it departs from formula exactly as you describe. Saying that, I don't think I can clarify the reasoning behind it or the execution of it any better than Tobias, who absolutely nailed not only the directive I was given by Paizo for this chapter, but also seems to confirm that the push and pull of the plotline's horrific climax was successfully executed. At least that was my intent from the outset.
How well that was accomplished is ultimately left for you to determine, but do know that the divergence from the earlier chapters' formula as you describe is intentional, for all the reasons Tobias describes, right down to the influence of Bram Stoker's seminal work and the way it approaches the book's final chapters. So spot-on is his assessment that an early draft even featured a Dracula-inspired carriage chase through the mountains of Virlych! (the narrative flow didn't quite work in the end and I cut it)
That's about all I can add! Thanks so much for the kind words and the thorough, thoughtful breakdown. I think you'll find in play that it serves as a fitting finale to the overall arch that provides catharsis from the tension the rest of the chapters build up, and I do hope your players enjoy it!
Yes, I'd say that SoG makes a very fitting ending for Carrion Crown and brings about a really nice end. The possible continuations are really nice too.
I particularly liked the running battle against Marrowgarth through the ruins of Adorak. My players are very good at setting up a good position for themselves, and I'm really looking forward to setting them against an opponent who literally collapses the battlefield underneath them. ;)
Needless to say, I think you captured exactly what you were going for. Fantastic job. I can't wait to see what's next and what happens with Jade Regent.
I'm not finished analyzing CC#6, so I'm unwilling to post my review in the product section at this time, but I thought I'd begin to share my thoughts in the discussion forum.
Just asking, but have you by happenstance done reviews on the other parts of the AP? If yes, could you point me to them, as it looks like I'll be abandoning my Kingmaker campaign ( mostly due to me feeling less and less motivated to GM it, as the plot is really light and I prefer plot-heavy campaigns ) and I would like to know what awaits me in Carrion Crown.
You already pointed out very interesting aspects in your OP, but I'd love to see a more detailed review. If you have done them, of course. :)
I'm sorry to hear that Magnus, I know you put a lot of time into subsystems for that game. KM is a weird beast, more of a campaign-framework than a real campaign. It's really dependant on having the PCs drive it - there's only so much we can do as GMs. :-( Reminds me of my struggles playing Exalted (by White Wolf). But that's off-topic!
As for Carrion Crown reviews, I haven't written any myself (outside of this post), but there are a number up on the Product Pages for the six issues that could give you some idea of what to expect.
Is there some sort of analysis in particular you're looking for?
Here's some quick notes that might help you decide if you'd like to GM it. This pertains to "the path as a whole":
The AP is in a "string of pearls" format: each module is basically self-contained with virtually no dependancies on what comes before or after it.
Within each "pearl" (ie book), the format is largely the same (with the exception of the final book):
- PCs enter a town, mostly clueless what to do next
- in that town, there was previously a balance, and now the balance has been disrupted, so now there is chaos
- PCs investigate how this chaos came to be (it's always the meddling of the Whispering Way), and then go "fix" it by killing something with a high CR
- at the end, discover where the Whispering Way went next
Within each pearl, the ability for the GM to add/change material is somewhat limited, lest you add too many red herrings and confuse the mystery.
The "strings" of our pearl analogy would be the traveling between towns, an activitiy which is barely fleshed out (and as such, the PCs should be on-board with a city-comptable character concepts).
The campaign is heavy on investigation and roleplay elements; expect to spend as much or more time doing this than fighting things.
The campaign has the mystique of a horror milieu rather than actually being in true horror game (see Hangman's Noose for an example of a module in actual horror format).
Despite its "road show" nature, this is overwhelmingly an urban campaign (this is particularly relevant for the PCs' character concepts).
I'm sorry to hear that Magnus, I know you put a lot of time into subsystems for that game. KM is a weird beast, more of a campaign-framework than a real campaign. It's really dependant on having the PCs drive it - there's only so much we can do as GMs. :-( Reminds me of my struggles playing Exalted (by White Wolf). But that's off-topic!
It was mainly due to myself... I really prefer plot-heavy stories and Kingmaker was, as you said, anything but. I think the straw which broke the camel's back was when I recited the still-to-come plot to myself and the only thing I could get excited about was the last module. Which, as we all know, is quite different from the rest of the AP.
As for Carrion Crown reviews, I haven't written any myself (outside of this post), but there are a number up on the Product Pages for the six issues that could give you some idea of what to expect.
Is there some sort of analysis in particular you're looking for?
Mostly if there are any clunkers in it like City of Seven Spears and if the plotting is dense and interesting. The second part already seems to be mostly confirmed by what you wrote in your OP and your last post. I'll inform my players that the AP is really investigation-heavy and that they better come prepared for that .
One thing, though. There is a little contradiction between the Players Guide and the required skills ( i.e. heavy emphasis on Knowledge, Sense Motive, Perception, Diplomacy, etc. ). When talking about the horror aspect, the Players Guide stresses that it would be preferable for the PCs to not have all the answers ( i.e. not have required Knowledge skills ), so that the characters horror at the happenings may be played out with more verisimilitude. What would you recommend? Having the skills or not having them?
One thing, though. There is a little contradiction between the Players Guide and the required skills ( i.e. heavy emphasis on Knowledge, Sense Motive, Perception, Diplomacy, etc. ). When talking about the horror aspect, the Players Guide stresses that it would be preferable for the PCs to not have all the answers ( i.e. not have required Knowledge skills ), so that the characters horror at the happenings may be played out with more verisimilitude. What would you recommend? Having the skills or not having them?
Knowledge
Sense Motive
Diplomacy
Perception
Horror isn't really about keeping them from knowing what is going on. It's about presentation and slow reveal. The AP is set up so that none of those skills are going to suddenly reveal what's going on. They only help the PCs piece it together. Without them, it means you either have to squeeze in awkward information dumps or leave them completely at a loss for what is going on. And if they don't know what is going on they're going on and don't feel like they're making progress figuring it out, then the entire path will become disjointed adventures and they'll lose interest long before things start to make sense.
Removing those skills will make the adventure path more difficult and incoherent. It will also rob the characters of their ability to feel like they are able to figure out what is going on, which will make them less inclined to look into it. How you describe a scene goes much, MUCH further to encourage fear than by stripping the characters of their abilities.
There is lots of plot, variety and character interaction in Carrion Crown. What really makes it a success or a failure is how the DM approaches it and whether or not the players are up for helping set the tone. Stripping out mechanics and abilities seems like an easy way to encourage horror, but fear because you are lacking an ability and fear caused by being genuinely creeped out and unsure are two different things. So you need to decide if you prefer mechanic based fear or atmosphere induced horror. They aren't mutually exclusive, but special mechanical limitations will usually break atmosphere for an experienced group who may get frustrated with the loss.
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When you ask "is the plot strong?" I must reiterate that this is a "string of pearls" campaign. There is very little in the way of overarching plotline. There is nothing tying the adventures together (even from the GM's point of view) other than "these guys are collecting ingredients for an evil ritual, let's stop them" and "they killed the professor, let's take vengence." There aren't even any recurring NPCs in the entire campaign. However, within each pearl, I have found each and every plot to be lucious and well-formed (with the possible exception of the 6th, as addressed in my OP).
As for knowledge-gathering-skills, I think Tobias made an excellent post, to which I have little to add. The art for you as a GM will be in controlling the rate of the outflow of information. You don't want the PCs to learn everything up-front, nor do you wish to reveal it all at the end. Each pearl works best by having a gradual reveal throughout its events. The modules help you acheive that end, but industrious players (esp those with magical divination specialties) will find a way to break that. Don't let them: the mystique of the campaign will suffer for it.
There are no "clunkers" in the campaign, but I here are the potential areas for friction or pitfall:
- the difficulty of Book 1 is rather high for a Paizo AP. PCs who "kick in the door" will die or TPK quickly. Encourage hit-and-run-and-study-and-come-back tactics.
- the plothook/motivation at the start of Book 2 is fairly weak. At this point the plot from Book 1 is over, but the main plot hasn't started, and passing the ball between the two of them can be difficult, particularly if your PCs are prone to ask "why should we care?"
- the difficulty of the dungeon at the end of Book 2 is rather high: it is the first time in the campaign the PCs will have to wrestle with attrition/resource-management, as well as the monsters tend to be quite difficult in their own right.
- the NPC interaction parts in the first half of Book 3 require a higher-than-usual burden on the GM to pull off correctly. Make sure to prepare adequately for what will be a somewhat freeform session.
- the end area of Book 3 has combats with a very large number of enemies at once: make sure you have a system down for making sure combat doesn't drag.
- Up until this point (ie Books 1-3), treasure has been mostly consumables and other "odd items", and sorely lacking in "big six." This will not be a problem going forward (ie Books 4-6 have more "traditional" treasure drops).
- Starting with Book 4 and continuing to the end, the difficulty level of the combats noticably drops compared to the first half of the campaign (even after accounting for the treasure issue).
- Book 4 needs to be seasoned to taste. It's absurdly Lovecraft heavy, and I would encourage some simplification in plotline (ie remove the Mi-Gos) and some replacement of encounters (the bestiary is diverse to the point of straining versimilitude) unless your PCs are into Lovecraft simply for the sake of Lovecraft.
- Book 5 requires working with vampires in the fight half. There are numerous threads on this forum addressing this issue. In my personal opinion, I think the "problems" here are overblown and should run fine as written.
- Book 5 has trouble "passing the ball" between the first half and the second half. PCs may protest that the 2nd half feels unnessecary (see my "Why the Witches" thread for more info)
- Book 6 is a linear dungeon-crawl, and may require extra spice. Otherwise it has been addressed in my OP.
Hope that helps.
This was enormously helpful to me ( and should be so for other GM's who are going to run the AP ). Many thanks from me therefore, Erik!
I have the advantage that this particular group of players never has used the "let's divination magic the hell out of those riddles!" mindset ( and I've been playing with most of them for close of a decade by now ), so that is one worry I don't have to be too alert about. :)
My players also all have played the Call of Cthulhu RPG in one form or another, so that's another advantage I have.
Again, many thanks for the pointers, they will be very helpful in the months to come. :)
I will add, though, that the lack of recurring NPC's and that the combat difficulty gets apparently way easier at around the fourth module forward are sapping some of my enthusiasm.
I personally very much think that player characters should have some recurring NPC's to build relationships with. If they have none of those, I still think I can sell the campaign to my players as a travelogue, where they solve episodic mysteries. But this has me quite a bit wary.
And as for the combats, about how easy are we talking about? Cakewalk easy or "not as totally mortal as before"? My players are quite good at building viable or even a bit OP characters, so I need to challenge them.
I will add, though, that the lack of recurring NPC's and that the combat difficulty gets apparently way easier at around the fourth module forward are sapping some of my enthusiasm.
I personally very much think that player characters should have some recurring NPC's to build relationships with. If they have none of those, I still think I can sell the campaign to my players as a travelogue, where they solve episodic mysteries. But this has me quite a bit wary.
And as for the combats, about how easy are we talking about? Cakewalk easy or "not as totally mortal as before"? My players are quite good at building viable or even a bit OP characters, so I need to challenge them.
You can easily have Kendra Lorrimor accompany the PCs from Ravengro to Lepidstadt and then from there she can meet them again in Caliphas.
I'm planning on bringing back several characters from earlier on in the Path for Part 5 and 6.
You can easily have Kendra Lorrimor accompany the PCs from Ravengro to Lepidstadt and then from there she can meet them again in Caliphas.I'm planning on bringing back several characters from earlier on in the Path for Part 5 and 6.
I guess Kendras motivation to accompany them would be the mystery of Professor Lorrimors murder?
As for the characters you want to bring back, which ones would you recommend and why?
You can easily have Kendra Lorrimor accompany the PCs from Ravengro to Lepidstadt and then from there she can meet them again in Caliphas.I'm planning on bringing back several characters from earlier on in the Path for Part 5 and 6.
I guess Kendras motivation to accompany them would be the mystery of Professor Lorrimors murder?
As for the characters you want to bring back, which ones would you recommend and why?
Judge Daramid and
The Princes' Wolves
are pretty high up on my list.
I'd like to have the focus of the meeting Caliphas be less "We're all here!" and more "So, what do we do about the WW?" ... so it makes sense to invite some people involved directly with that subject.
@NPCs: it's difficult to write recurring NPCs into this module, due to the combination of it being a travelogue, and the tight timer.
- Book 1 has a hard internal timer (30 days).
- The break between Books 1 and 2 is the only time-unstructured part of the campaign, where you can take as long as you like.
- Book 2 has a hard internal timer for the first half (3 days), then a soft timer for the second half (do it ASAP, likely same-or-next day).
- The break between Books 2 and 3 has a sense of "we don't want to the trail to go cold", and while the PCs don't nessecarily have to rush to their destination, they also are unlikely to lolligag or take their time.
- The first half of Book 3 has an internal timer driven by the NPCs, it takes about a week to complete.
- There's travel between the first&second parts of Book 3, but it's a race, and will be done in 6 days
- The second half of Book 3 doesn't have a timer per se, but you'll likely finish in a couple days
- The transition between Books 3 and 4 is the most time-rushed of them all, and should take about 4 days
- Book 4 is on a soft timer. Should take about a week.
- The travel between Books 4 and 5 is also time-intense, but at this point the PCs should have teleport, so it takes no time at all.
- The first half of Book 5 is on a timer: should take only a few days
- The second half of Book 5 is on a softer timer, but should still only take a few days
- Then the transition between Books 5 and 6 is the most rushed of them all
- Then the first half of Book 6 is also super-rushed (likely done in one day)
- Then technically, the PCs could do the second half of Book 6 at their own pace
So, what do we have? We have travel over the entire country of Ustalav... in about the span of a month and a half. There's no logical way to have recurring NPCs unless they are also rushing at high speeds, or else it strains verisimilitude ("woah, how did you get here ahead of us?")
@Difficulty: here's my take. Note that I haven't played them all, this just from reading it:
Book 1: very hard
Book 2: very, very hard
Book 3: hard
Book 4: properly balanced
Book 5: easy
Book 6: properly balanced
None of them are "cakewalk."
@NPCs: it's difficult to write recurring NPCs into this module, due to the combination of it being a travelogue, and the tight timer.
- Book 1 has a hard internal timer (30 days).
- The break between Books 1 and 2 is the only time-unstructured part of the campaign, where you can take as long as you like.
- Book 2 has a hard internal timer for the first half (3 days), then a soft timer for the second half (do it ASAP, likely same-or-next day).
- The break between Books 2 and 3 has a sense of "we don't want to the trail to go cold", and while the PCs don't nessecarily have to rush to their destination, they also are unlikely to lolligag or take their time.
- The first half of Book 3 has an internal timer driven by the NPCs, it takes about a week to complete.
- There's travel between the first&second parts of Book 3, but it's a race, and will be done in 6 days
- The second half of Book 3 doesn't have a timer per se, but you'll likely finish in a couple days
- The transition between Books 3 and 4 is the most time-rushed of them all, and should take about 4 days
- Book 4 is on a soft timer. Should take about a week.
- The travel between Books 4 and 5 is also time-intense, but at this point the PCs should have teleport, so it takes no time at all.
- The first half of Book 5 is on a timer: should take only a few days
- The second half of Book 5 is on a softer timer, but should still only take a few days
- Then the transition between Books 5 and 6 is the most rushed of them all
- Then the first half of Book 6 is also super-rushed (likely done in one day)
- Then technically, the PCs could do the second half of Book 6 at their own paceSo, what do we have? We have travel over the entire country of Ustalav... in about the span of a month and a half. There's no logical way to have recurring NPCs unless they are also rushing at high speeds, or else it strains verisimilitude ("woah, how did you get here ahead of us?")
That's very interesting and puts the campaign in another light. Outside of the a bit ridiculous leveling pace this proscribes, it makes the campaign feel a bit like that race to Castle Dracula in Bram Stoker's Dracula, at the end of the movie.
@Difficulty: here's my take. Note that I haven't played them all, this just from reading it:
Book 1: very hard
Book 2: very, very hard
Book 3: hard
Book 4: properly balanced
Book 5: easy
Book 6: properly balancedNone of them are "cakewalk."
That sounds pretty okay. A bit disappointing that the vampire part is the easy one, but I can spice it up if needed.
@Ice Titan: I'll look at those NPC's and see if they can be integrated a bit more into the campaign. But at least Kendra Lorrimor should provide a possible love interest for at least one PC, if one of the players chooses to pursue that angle.
So far three players already have brought up character ideas and it seems I have Pistolero Gunslinger, a ranged Inquisitor and a Cleric of Saranrae. We'll see what the other two players come up with. :)
Many thanks for the information to you two. Especially for the very detailed work Erik did. :)
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@Difficulty: here's my take. Note that I haven't played them all, this just from reading it:
Book 1: very hard
Book 2: very, very hard
Book 3: hard
Book 4: properly balanced
Book 5: easy
Book 6: properly balanced
Very much agreed. Also if you have a group that isn't into investigation/diplomacy the AP gets even harder. If they just blow through stuff and skip clues things can bog down. I would stress knowledge, perception, diplomacy, and sense motive being big assets in this adventure path. I'm halfway through book 4 now.
Book 1: Investigation heavy first part, hard dungeon crawl. Major issue is haunts/incorporeal creatures. Having channel class is a big help. I would give this 4 of 5 stars. Very strong flavor. The multi-boss aspect I like quite a bit. I'm not the biggest fan of dungeon crawls so I cut out some mundane encounters so it wasn't bog down in combat at the end. Emphasis the mini-bosses and boss encounters.
Book 2: By far my favorite of the books. Loved the trial and the group was very engaged into the investigation aspect of this AP. We played out the major elements of the trial itself and having a PC on the stand. Was very different from the normal adventures we've played. Second part Schloss can be very hard. It super cool dungeon crawl. Love the maps and flavor of the castle. A couple of encounters are deadly. Erinyes and Guardian of the Tower are both wicked. I had two PC deaths in this AP.
Book 3: At first I thought I wasn't going to enjoy this AP, but when I actually ran it I liked it quite a bit. The first half at the Ascanor Lodge is superb role-play/mystery joy. I was intimidated by the amount of NPCs I would have to run but it was a blast. The first half was one of the strongest parts I've ran in this AP. Same as the other two it reverts into Dungeon Crawl. Although my group when they hit Feldgrau decided to pass up on information and go straight for the first half BBEG. If played right Auren Vrood is a HARD challenge. He almost TPKed the party. Three PCs died. Two from circle of death and one from enervation/cloudkill. I had to pull back on him a bit to get 3 PCs to survive the fight.
Right now running through Book 4 so I'll give my opinion when I finish it. So far it's been fun.
Biggest issue so far is that the BBEG is really never mentioned throughout the AP. My group for longest time thought Auren Vrood was the guy they needed to kill. He seemed setup to be the BBEG. I would of preferred that Vrood continued to be the main villain throughout the AP. Having an encounter with him in Book 3 and then again in Book 6 would of gone a long way to establish a memorable BBEG. Considered he killed half the group. So revenge would of been a big motivating factor.
Also if you have a group that isn't into investigation/diplomacy the AP gets even harder. If they just blow through stuff and skip clues things can bog down.
If someone has such a group I think they should seriously reconsider running the AP at all. Not all APs are intended for all people.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts in this thread. It's alerted me of various issues and potential tripfalls to avoid :)
Biggest issue so far is that the BBEG is really never mentioned throughout the AP. My group for longest time thought Auren Vrood was the guy they needed to kill. He seemed setup to be the BBEG. I would of preferred that Vrood continued to be the main villain throughout the AP. Having an encounter with him in Book 3 and then again in Book 6 would of gone a long way to establish a memorable BBEG. Considered he killed half the group. So revenge would of been a big motivating factor.
I would offer a subtle shift of perception:
Consider that the overarching enemy in the Carrion Crown AP is the Whispering Way, and not Adivion. Sure, he's ultimately the puppet pulling strings from behind the scenes, but you've got to pull back a lot of curtains to see him. And there are others pulling strings, too -Vrood, Lucimar, the Gray Friar, etc. Together, they are different aspects of the same force: the Whispering Way.
I hear you, though. That's why Wes addressed the subject in the intro to SoG. Unfortunately, earlier encounters and run-ins are necessarily discouraged when assembling a 6-part adventure path with a 6-author crossover. This is something I was surprised to learn when writing on this AP. Links between adventures need to be tentative, because a disruption early in the AP not accounted for by writers can screw up every book after it for the GM running at home. If, for instance, Adivion is encountered in Book 4 in an encounter written as strictly roleplay, but your PCs jump him and get a lucky shot, then you've got a lot of work on your hands as a GM to account for his death. And as writers and designers, we just can't account for what happens at the table, so you write toward the best assumption you can, and try hard to avoid those types of pitfalls.
An example of this is in Renchurch--the room of revenants. Note that I gave suggestions on previously-slain cultists who might be in there to throw back up against the party. Originally, I named them specifically (I think the main one was Vrood, actually), but my developer was quick to point out that I couldn't assume any one person or another was actually slain in a previous chapter. You have no idea what a home group or gaming table might pull off, so you have to sidestep that, and work toward that goal without tying the knot too tight.
That's the thinking behind that, anyway. I just thought I would shed light on the design side of it, and I really hope the response doesn't sound defensive. There are a TON of great ideas in this thread that, in hindsight, would have made great inclusions in the overarching plot of Carrion Crown, and I encourage you to plunder them as you will to connect-the-dots as you see fit. That's the awesome thing about all this -you've got a table of players, and only you know best how to keep them entertained with the tools you've got, so if it is cool, share it so others can do the same. Keep it up! =-)
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That's the thinking behind that, anyway. I just thought I would shed light on the design side of it, and I really hope the response doesn't sound defensive. There are a TON of great ideas in this thread that, in hindsight, would have made great inclusions in the overarching plot of Carrion Crown, and I encourage you to plunder them as you will to connect-the-dots as you see fit. That's the awesome thing about all this -you've got a table of players, and only you know best how to keep them entertained with the tools you've got, so if it is cool, share it so others can do the same. Keep it up! =-)
From my view Vrood is built from beginning as the nemesis to a certain degree. He's foreshadowed in Harrowstone. At the end of Trial of the Beast he is established as a major mover for the Whispering Way. In Broken Moon the whole investigation is about Vrood and what he is up too. From the beginning it seemed Vrood was being primed as the final encounter of the AP. It seems like a lot of work went into Vrood to be just the guy carrying stuff around. It seemed like a lot of build up for a guy who fizzles out in the third AP.
From the groups point of view. All signs point to Vrood for 17 sessions. They finally encounter him. Defeat him. Then a couple of guys slip out the backdoor to Thrushmoor.
I don't take it as defensive position. I understand all the APs have to stand apart and take in certain variable when comes to individual campaigns. Hindsight being 20/20 I would of done some things different from the onset of the campaign to introduce the BBEG earlier. I started Harrowstone a few weeks after it came out so I didn't have the complete AP to draw upon. Everything else has been amazing to run. I wouldn't be running it since May and something like 80 hours of gameplay if I didn't think it was good. ;-)
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I hear you, though. That's why Wes addressed the subject in the intro to SoG.
Here's my grievance with this. That part wasn't deftly done. Telling the DMs who read the intro to reintroduce the main villain as they see fit isn't what I call adressing an issue. And here's why. One of the reasons lots of DMs decide to run an AP is that they simply don't have enough time or imagination (my case) to create their own campaigns. And that's why I spent (literally) hundreds of dollars on two APs I ran so far (Legacy of Fire and currently CC). I've got no problem with that, even though it's not a small sum for a college kid from Serbia. Legacy was lots of fun and Jason Nelson was more than enough helpful with his suggestions on how to tweak things and generally it was a good written AP.
And then comes the FINAL chapter of Carrion Crown, where designers give us a few vague paragraphs on how Adivion should be incorporated in the campaign. But by that point, it might be late for somebody who's running the campaign as chapters are published. Or simply doesn't go into in-depth reading of chapters other than that they are currently running. I was lucky enough that my campaign was only on second chapter by then, but I have already missed a few chances to introduce Adivion as some other DMs suggested. DMs, mind you, not writters of the AP. Not to mention it was kinda irresponsible not to let DMs know up front that they'll have to think of lots of foreshadowing themselves.
Like I said, some DMs aren't really up to the task. Some of them maybe don't visit the forums to rely on other, more experienced DMs to give them ideas.
IMHO, the main villain of the campaign should be just as important as the overall story and players should know whom they are facing long way before the final encounter. Example for this is Jon Irenicus from Baldur's Gate. Right off the bat he gives you a reason to hate him, has an amazing storyline and you run into him a few times during the game. Example of a memorable Paizo villain is (spoilers for Legacy of Fire):
And here we have little to NONE mention of Adivion in first FOUR chapters (seriously, his name doesn't even appear at all in Trial of the Beast, I just did a search of the PDF. In Broken Moon he is mentioned only in relation to Auren Vrood and finally at the end of it they learn they will battle a lich). Not a good foreshadowing. I imagine the reaction that my PCs would have when they learn that Adivion is the final boss would be 'Oh. Who's that?'
What I am trying to say is... Had you mentioned that we, the DMs, would have to work hard on the main villain, it might be that some of us would reconsider buying/running this campaign. As it happens, I had all the confidence in Paizo that they would offer me an Irenicus-worthy villain, so right away I subscribed to this AP and bought all the supporting products (Harrow Deck, DM Screen, Rule of Fear, Map Folio, Undead Revisited) and got an unfinished product. This was the reason I immediately unsubscribed from any further APs once I read the Intro to chapter 6.
Now, please don't take this post as an insult, I'm just trying to supply you with some constructive critisism and state my issue with it because this wasn't the standard Paizo quality that I know and love.
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Good post black wolf. I agree with everything you stated. Adivion is mentioned once in Broken Moon in a journal entry. For the PCs it's just a name. I tend to read one AP in advance. I'm currently reading through Ashes at Dawn and haven't touched Shadows yet. I did read the intro to Shadows and it seem like oh by the way we forgot to do anything with the main villain for 5 adventures. Its a bit late now for me since I'm already into Wake and I can't go back to foreshadow him.
So 4 adventures in and my guys are chasing around black riders lackeys with no clear vision of who the final villain is(and one of PCs actually brought up the point last session about being 20 sessions in and not having any names associated with the WW). There is no great nemesis to point a finger to. Like I said before prior to the end of Broken Moon Vrood was setup as BBEG. Everything was pointing to him. I would've been happy to keep the group trailing Vrood for Six APs.
As mentioned by Black I'm the type of GM who is too lazy to write adventures at this point of my life. So I'm pretty much running the AP as written. So I'm counting on the writers to deliver for me. Which is why I subscribe to the APs.
It's not a total letdown. I'll figure out a way to get some foreshadowing done in Ashes to add certain elements to finale.
Or I just have the PC roll INT check. Oh you passed.........by the way you remember this guy at the funeral.........um....yeah.
I'll figure out a way to get some foreshadowing done in Ashes to add certain elements to finale.
As the author of Ashes at Dawn, let me suggest an idea that might help you:
Have Adivion Adrissant be a reclusive (and normally disinterested) member of the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye. Don't make him an active member. Much like Count Galdana, he'd only include himself in the organization as part of climbing the social ladder in Ustalav. Even then, he generally won't agree with those socialites on much of anything. But, due to his own noble background, you can probably insert him into the secret society, primarily so he can keep tabs on their influence in Ustalav (and counter it, if necessary, to reach his long-term goals). The other members of the Order probably wouldn't suspect such a traitor in their midst (at least, not one that scholarly and highly-placed). Plus, as a magus, Adivion would have ample means to hide his activities and general duplicity from them.
Then, during the scene where the PCs need to interact with Edjureus Modd and Abraun Chalest, have Adivion be present that evening at the Harrady Theater along with Count Lucinean Galdana. In fact, Adivion's entire reason for being there is probably so he can lure Galdana into the kidnapping he has planned for later that evening where he and his Whispering Way lackeys will whisk them away. This should give the PCs an opportunity to interact with Adivion in a social encounter alongside Count Galdana. And, it should help foreshadow a few things for you when they finally put their clues together.
My two cents,
--Neil
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I'll figure out a way to get some foreshadowing done in Ashes to add certain elements to finale.As the author of Ashes at Dawn, let me suggest an idea that might help you:
** spoiler omitted **
My two cents,
--Neil
Thanks Neil. I'm probably going to run it like that. Awesome. ;-)
Just to clear things up about my previous post and if they came off harsh they weren't intended to be that way. I actually think all the writers have hit the ball out of the park with the three APs I've ran. They have all have been very solid and I know you all work within the confines of your assignment. There have been some amazing encounters and awesome role-play that I will remember for years. So great job!
The critical aspect is more pointed at who developed the AP. I think the ball was dropped there. The adventures are awesome.
It seems like there was a clear vision for the first three APs. Thinking back you could end the whole story with Broken Moon with a couple of changes. WoW is kinda side trek. I haven't fully read the last two so I don't know how they resolve themselves.
That's a great idea in theory, Mr. Spicer, but it won't work if the PCs know Adrissant was the backer for the WW cultists in the Ascanor Lodge or had some other clue. In my experience, players will try to kill or neutralize any NPC they know to be working with the bad guys, even if he's just being tricked into doing it. At least, I know my group will be trying to off Adrissant right then and there in the Lodge, without any care for subtlety. The only reason why they didn't go after any NPCs in similar encounters in our Council of Thieves campaign is that they hadn't figured who the bad guys were.
However, I think your encounter would be a GREAT idea and AWESOME foreshadowing if you remove his name from almost all references in earlier adventures. Maybe even have the PCs wondering why the campaign is still going (after all, haven't they killed the BBEG?).
In my opinion, not ALL campaigns need to have a "properly foreshadowed BBEG". I think it would be a shame if all Paizo APs followed the same formulaic setup. For example, I think the foreshadowing of the endgame in the two first parts of Serpent's Skull is BRILLIANT. And Carrion Crown is by it's very nature ("monster of the week"-adventures) much more disjointed than other APs. I also like the idea that it isn't one BBEG, it's the entire cult which is the enemy. I would also like if Adrissant (or some other BBEG) wasn't a high-level dude, he was just a very smart low level guy.
In fact, I just decided to steal Mr. Spicer's idea and insert a low level WW "facilitator" in Caliphas, a guy who came up with or at least planned a big part of the WW grand scheme. Even if the PCs kill him, the plan is still in motion and they gain very little by it. I think that would also fit bette with the 'horror' theme in contrast to a more 'heroic' "We killed him, the kingdom is saved!"
With that in mind, I will think of a pseudonym for Adivion, so all mentionings of Adivion will be mentionings of that name, so when they meet him, they'll have no clue that that's him. Suggestions? Something along the lines of Whispering Apprentice or something like that.
With that in mind, I will think of a pseudonym for Adivion, so all mentionings of Adivion will be mentionings of that name, so when they meet him, they'll have no clue that that's him. Suggestions? Something along the lines of Whispering Apprentice or something like that.
Well, he isn't an apprentice, he's the head. Using a pseudonym can causes problems too. If Adivion doesn't have a presence in the campaign, the pseudonym will mean little when the reveal comes along. You'd be better off simply having him show up at the Order party and let the players put it together once the final act starts.
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Just a random thought but would it not be possible to Just switch Aivion for Vrood? What I mean is instead of encountering Vrood at the end of book 3 simply have it that he has already moved on to the whispering way Hq and make it one of his lackys he has left in charge? (admitadly not a lot of help from anyone who has already gotten beyond this point.)
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Just a random thought but would it not be possible to Just switch Aivion for Vrood? What I mean is instead of encountering Vrood at the end of book 3 simply have it that he has already moved on to the whispering way Hq and make it one of his lackys he has left in charge? (admitadly not a lot of help from anyone who has already gotten beyond this point.)
You could. You can still have the PCs fight Vrood at Felgrau. In his combat info it mentions when he gets low in health he cast invisibility and says "I'll see you Gallowspire". If I haven't already ran BM I would of replace Adivion with Vrood. You can just use Adivion stats and say when he changes his powers were altered or just redo his stats. Vrood would of been the ideal BBEG.
Well, he isn't an apprentice, he's the head. Using a pseudonym can causes problems too. If Adivion doesn't have a presence in the campaign, the pseudonym will mean little when the reveal comes along. You'd be better off simply having him show up at the Order party and let the players put it together once the final act starts.With that in mind, I will think of a pseudonym for Adivion, so all mentionings of Adivion will be mentionings of that name, so when they meet him, they'll have no clue that that's him. Suggestions? Something along the lines of Whispering Apprentice or something like that.
Well, if you introduce Adivion earlier and then scatter more clues around that __________ is the head of Whispering Way, it could be a nice reveal.
That's a great idea in theory, Mr. Spicer, but it won't work if the PCs know Adrissant was the backer for the WW cultists in the Ascanor Lodge or had some other clue. In my experience, players will try to kill or neutralize any NPC they know to be working with the bad guys....
Oh, I agree. I was just under the impression the OP hadn't dropped any clues yet for the PCs...and that Adivion was still a complete "unknown" to them. In which case, I think the idea of introducing him at the party in Caliphas makes for a good way to introduce him without the PCs anticipating him as the BBEG, while also setting up some decent foreshadowing for the end-game.
Now I on the other hand think the villian works just fine, mainly because very early on the players discover (at least in my case) that the Whispering Way is related to Tar-Baphon, and have come to the conclusion that they are going to perform some kind of ritual to release him from his eternal prison. So its a race against time to stop the Way before they release the whispering tyrant. In there eyes, he's the ultimate villian (which is true), and I plan to have the GoS BBEG do his job just as he planned.
Whispering Way - at least, under Adivion's leadership during Carrion Crown never planned to release Tar-Baphon. They wanted to transform one of his distant offsprings into a new lich entirely, hoping that Tar-Baphon's blood will fuel the greatness in him. Doing so would (maybe) cause Tar-Baphon to be reincarnated in Count Galdana's body, but we don't know that for sure. As it is, it remains that ultimate villain is Adivion Adrissant.
Whispering Way - at least, under Adivion's leadership during Carrion Crown never planned to release Tar-Baphon. They wanted to transform one of his distant offsprings into a new lich entirely, hoping that Tar-Baphon's blood will fuel the greatness in him. Doing so would (maybe) cause Tar-Baphon to be reincarnated in Count Galdana's body, but we don't know that for sure. As it is, it remains that ultimate villain is Adivion Adrissant.
But would the Way abandon the plot if Adivion was killed? Even if they had everything, or only needed a piece or two? That doesn't make much sense.
Don't forget that, by the end of the AP, PCs will have DECIMATED the ranks of Whispering Way. Killed their top leadership, many of their undead monsters, even more initiates, so I imagine it would take them quite a while to recouperate and pose a serious threat again.
Don't forget that, by the end of the AP, PCs will have DECIMATED the ranks of Whispering Way. Killed their top leadership, many of their undead monsters, even more initiates, so I imagine it would take them quite a while to recouperate and pose a serious threat again.
Yes, but that's by the end of the path. If Adivion was killed back in book 4 or 5, let's say, then why would the Way stop? It would simply continue and someone else would be at the top of Gallowspire instead of Adivion.
On a side note this does seem to be a bit of a growing trend with the Ap's of having no idea who the main villain is until very near the end (thinking specificly Kingmaker, Serpent Skull and now carrion crown) Anyone else noticing this or is it just me?
That's been quite a thing since Rise of the Runelords, IIRC, which has been lamented quite a few times in the past on these boards.
If Adivion was that replaceable, why would he even have risen to the position he is in? He came from outside the Way and rose all to the top, so there must be something very special about him. I would say that he has some knowledge regarding the Carrion Crown that he does not share with the other leaders of the Way.
Possibly, and it is fine if you want to make him that indispensable. He's arrogant enough for it, after all. The problem then becomes if you expose him and your players kill him.
Of course, if he is hiding something about the ritual and was killed, that probably wouldn't stop his replacement from trying to complete it anyway. Look at how much they sunk into it with resources and manpower after all. And if he thinks he has it figured out, he goes to try it and we can still have the events of SoG play out as written.
That's the thing. All you need is a single person in the upper echilons who thinks he has it figured out for the plan to continue.
That's the thing. All you need is a single person in the upper echilons who thinks he has it figured out for the plan to continue.
Should GMs decide to introduce Adivion earlier in the campaign, and should something drastic and irreversible happen to him as a result of that exposure, Lucimar is just the sort of opportunist to take over his role. Alternativelty, Lucimar assumes the Gray Friars role in the preparation ceremony in Renchurch, and the Gray Friar moves forward to fulfill the BBEG role at the top of Gallowspire. Beef them up where appropriate.
This is, of course, assuming in your campaign that Adivion's demise isn't a decoy along the lines of a cleverly-used fetch or simulacrum, and necromancy just happens to be the Whispering Way's specialty, so his raising or resurrection in such an event is almost assured.
That's the thing. All you need is a single person in the upper echilons who thinks he has it figured out for the plan to continue.Should GMs decide to introduce Adivion earlier in the campaign, and should something drastic and irreversible happen to him as a result of that exposure, Lucimar is just the sort of opportunist to take over his role. Alternativelty, Lucimar assumes the Gray Friars role in the preparation ceremony in Renchurch, and the Gray Friar moves forward to fulfill the BBEG role at the top of Gallowspire. Beef them up where appropriate.
This is, of course, assuming in your campaign that Adivion's demise isn't a decoy along the lines of a cleverly-used fetch or simulacrum, and necromancy just happens to be the Whispering Way's specialty, so his raising or resurrection in such an event is almost assured.
Hmm... that brings up a question. What happens if an undead creature (like the Gray Friar) or a creature that is already a lich (like Lucimar) takes a potion meant create a lich? Do they become Forsaken liches?
Hmm... that brings up a question. What happens if an undead creature (like the Gray Friar) or a creature that is already a lich (like Lucimar) takes a potion meant create a lich? Do they become Forsaken liches?
Technically no - the lich and forsaken lich templates only apply to living creatures. I think the chance of the chain of events I'm talking about here is pretty slim to none of actually happening in a campaign, unless a GM gets really careless with Adivion's presence and purpose. But if it does, and if GMs feel the living creature requirement is messing everything up and keeping one of the substitutes from going through with the ceremony, then I suggest they introduce PCs to another high-level living initiate of the Whispering Way, who volunteers to stand in the fallen Adivion's place at the top of Gallowspire. Maybe he just so happens to be a staff magus? =-)
That brings up something that has been bothering me for a little bit but why make Adivion a Magus? Having all this build up with this necromatic cult then having the final boss not really be a necromacer seems a bit odd to me.Maybe he just so happens to be a staff magus? =-)
Adivion's background and upbringing from the prologue make it very clear why he is what he is. He comes from a privileged family and has received a lifetime of training in martial and mystical arts. His plan to release the Tyrant is a later-in-life revelation borne of malaise and discontent with the way of the world, and the scheme itself is only a few years in the making. Given this background, it makes less sense to retroactively make him a necromancer for the entirety of that upbringing that to have his class levels reflect what he's spent his whole life mastering. After all, that's why he comes to the Whispering Way -Golarion's resident experts in necromancy -to get the job done. And there are plenty of necromancers to encounter, besides!
Now, as for why he he ended up a staff magus, you'll have to ask our cover artist about that. =-)
I'm still working through how I want to play out the first book of this AP, but I'm definitely thinking about opening it up a bit! When I first looked through its bestiary and saw the Apocalypse Zombie there, I immediately wanted to incorporate them into a "Night of the Living Dead" type of adventure in Ravengro. My initial thoughts (just preliminary now) is to incorporate that right into the adventure, so that all of their investigations and other happenings take place under the threat of these uniquely dangerous zombies, unleashed via the WW with a little build-up early on. This way, the PCs have more on their plate in protecting the townsfolk as they investigate. I may push the zombie invasion back some so that a couple of the other events take place first.
Also, where Adivion is concerned, I intend to actually have him in Ravengro for the first book and at the good doctor's funeral as a good friend of the man. Naturally, there won't be any connection to the WW at this time, but I plan on having him make reoccurring appearances throughout (still haven't put all the pieces together yet, but I'll not be running this AP until after we're through with current SS campaign followed by CotCT, so I've got plenty of time to work this all out).
Needless to say, I love gothic horror stuff, and I've got a ton of additional material I intend to throw into this AP. To help compensate, I'll be running it with the slow progression XP chart.
The Adivion foreshadowing thread might prove useful
Just wanted to link the above to this thread for people wanting a tighter overall Adivion plotline.
I still think Shadows of Gallowspire (IMHO) is one of the best AP endcaps. For me it's up there with Kingmaker #6.