Hand a druid a steel shield...


Rules Questions

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Happler wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
*pokes head in*

*Pulls TriOmegaZero down behind the overturned table*

Careful, they are still shooting in here.

(dives behind table)

Yikes, good call. Question is, is ToZ equipping the table or just using it?

edit

BigJohn42 wrote:
nosig wrote:
Great BigJohn! Dead Guy Ale... in fact Dead Guy Pale Ale it is!
You'll notice that, for extra RPG awesomeness, Dead Guy Ale is made by "Rogue" brewery.

And darn good stuff it is too, though I don't run across it all that often.

Shadow Lodge

gbonehead wrote:


Yikes, good call. Question is, is ToZ equipping the table or just using it?

I AM the table.


gbonehead wrote:


BigJohn42 wrote:
You'll notice that, for extra RPG awesomeness, Dead Guy Ale is made by "Rogue" brewery.
And darn good stuff it is too, though I don't run across it all that often.

Well worth dropping a weapon for.


Yep, 300+ posts since my last one here and things have really gone off on different tangents. lol

I was that one who somehow got the equip vs. wear a shield thing going because I made the mistake of using a metal buckler in my example, seeing as how you can have a buckler strapped on properly but if you do not raise your arm in defense with it, you are not using it, only wearing it.

As for those arguing if they can do this with a helmet or gauntlets instead of a shield, it would matter what kind of armor it is. The descriptions of plate and half-plate state that they include a helmet and gauntlets, and other metal sets include gauntlets, so if you use those with this spell it will have the same effect on the druid that a metal shield would.

As for whether the spell tells the target what an item it, I agree that it would work with the item's basic type, except for liquids, where I feel it would be based on the container instead. If you use the spell and hand the target a beer mug filled with poison, he will drink it. If you hand the target a container that is obviously made to be a thrown weapon, he will hold it in a stance where it can be thrown, even if it really contains the finest Inner Sea wine.

I am also surprised at all the posts that seem to assume that this spell is being using in the middle of combat when it is not meant to be. The spell is meant to help you take a potential enemy off-guard before any combat starts. I do not think I would even let this spell work if it were attempted in combat, since the target is already aware of you as an enemy.

I think I may have said this before, but to me, this spell requires at least a minimal bit of role-playing when it is cast to have a better chance of success, as what the bard says to the target about the item as it is handed over should make a difference on the saving throw. Remember, that GMs are allowed to throw in situational modifiers, plus or minus, to saves, skill checks, etc, if they feel they are warranted.

The Exchange

"I do not think I would even let this spell work if it were attempted in combat, since the target is already aware of you as an enemy"

Why? and are there any other spells that you would ban from working at your table - that don't say they work in combat in the spell discription?

How about if the bard Charm Persons the target frist, or uses Disguise Self to appear as one of the Targets friends (or in the case of a Druid, as a Woodland creature like a Dryad?)? Or is this a blanket "Doesn't work".


I was going to include some situational cases, like if the character was a bard/rogue and snuck up on the target first, or being invisible, etc. But stuff like that is always going to be in the "GM call" area and Paizo has stated many times that they hate giving official rulings for odd situations. So your questions would probably fall into the same grey area of the rules. So yes, if the target is aware of you and knows you are an enemy, then trickery-based magic or skills or whatever will have less of a chance of working, either giving the target a bonus to save or resist or downright not working, depending on the exact situation. There is not blanket yes or no for this kind of stuff. And remember, I am referring to you the caster already being in combat with the target when you try one of these spells, not you being out of combat while the rest of your party distracts the target.


I only was able to read the 1st page, but something of note (at least from my perspective as GM) is that shields can be counted as weapons. (For the purposes of enchantments. For the purposes of making offhand attacks, etc) The description of the spell actually uses "wielding a sword" as an example. To me- that's pretty concrete.

If a player pulled that at my table, I would not only allow it but congratulate him for thinking outside the box! I presented him with a challenge that he thought his way out of in an innovative way. Hell- I might even reward him for that!

The only thing I would question is if the character (not the player) would know that druids are unable to use steel weapons. If the players was a rogue from a big urban center where druids are seldom seen and less is known about them, I might make him make an on the fly knowledge (religion or nature) check to see if his character actually knew it. (Metagaming)

-Scott
PS: It's called BEGUILING gift for a reason :D Well done mate.


Give a druid a steel shield and he can't cast for a day. Teach a druid to forge steel shields and he can't cast for a lifetime.

The Exchange

Scott_UAT, thanks for your input. Yeah, the Character in question, my Bard has a brother who is a Druid - who uses steel weapons all the time (Druids can use metal weapons in PF - even Greatswords), so even though she has an urban background, she knows not to get her brother a fancy steel shield for his birthday.
I do kind of wonder about the metal helm issue everyone keeps talking about. I would think that a Druid could use a metal helm, something like a winged helmet for example. His armor still counts as hide, but his helm is metal.

Dark Archive

nosig wrote:

Scott_UAT, thanks for your input. Yeah, the Character in question, my Bard has a brother who is a Druid - who uses steel weapons all the time (Druids can use metal weapons in PF - even Greatswords), so even though she has an urban background, she knows not to get her brother a fancy steel shield for his birthday.

I do kind of wonder about the metal helm issue everyone keeps talking about. I would think that a Druid could use a metal helm, something like a winged helmet for example. His armor still counts as hide, but his helm is metal.

I would agree with you on the helm. Helmets are not marked as a separate piece of armor.

Now, that may just be me not wanting to stomp down too hard on them and deny them things like the gauntlet of rust (which while described as being made of metal, seems to be a thematic good choice for a druid).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Scott_UAT wrote:

I only was able to read the 1st page, but something of note (at least from my perspective as GM) is that shields can be counted as weapons. (For the purposes of enchantments. For the purposes of making offhand attacks, etc) The description of the spell actually uses "wielding a sword" as an example. To me- that's pretty concrete.

If a player pulled that at my table, I would not only allow it but congratulate him for thinking outside the box! I presented him with a challenge that he thought his way out of in an innovative way. Hell- I might even reward him for that!

The only thing I would question is if the character (not the player) would know that druids are unable to use steel weapons. If the players was a rogue from a big urban center where druids are seldom seen and less is known about them, I might make him make an on the fly knowledge (religion or nature) check to see if his character actually knew it. (Metagaming)

-Scott
PS: It's called BEGUILING gift for a reason :D Well done mate.

Druids can use steel weapons. Scimitars and the like. if you give them a shield, they can wield it as a weapon not armor. gauntlets are also listed under weapons, and can be wielded as a weapon. Pretty sure if the druid did use the shield or gauntlet as a weapon, they wouldn't be gaining any AC bonus or count as wielding it as armor, and could retain the use of their casting abilities.

outside of combat, i'm sure a druid would consider casting the spell to get him to use a shield as a hostile action, which would immediately result in combat. then again, most spell casting initiates combat. since people who don't know what your casting will rarely wait and find out, and people who do know what your casting will often want to hit you more.

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