This has been bugging me for a while since I can find no clarification as to why a creature with the cold subtype and no acid attacks is immune to it. I doubt it's a typo since it's in the PRD as well as having been discussed here on the boards (albeit without an explanation that I can find). So what's the deal?
Silver doesn't tarnish / corrode?
Really only idea I could come up with of course in that case Gold's would be immune too.
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Except chemistry tells us otherwise.
I feel I had a paradigm shift again -- I could have sworn that silvers were immune to lightning and cold -- and always had been... but the 3.5 stuff is showing acid too... which I'm convinced isn't right.
Silver doesn't tarnish / corrode?
Really only idea I could come up with of course in that case Gold's would be immune too.
Silver tarnish is a nice gunky looking black. Gold will not tarnish, silver will.
This has been bugging me for a while since I can find no clarification as to why a creature with the cold subtype and no acid attacks is immune to it. I doubt it's a typo since it's in the PRD as well as having been discussed here on the boards (albeit without an explanation that I can find). So what's the deal?
Silver Dragons are immune to acid for the same reason that Djinn are.
Cold is a water sub-type; water dilutes acid; Silver Dragons are immune to acid (as good a logic as 'Hey! It's magic!)
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All y'all are missing the point: They're too cool to be affected by acid.
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All y'all are missing the point: They're too cool to be affected by acid.
...I see what you did there.
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Who, me?
Thanks for the promptness of your replies everyone. ^_^ I've never been able to accept "just because" as a good reason for anything. Magic may not always be logical, but it does work within guidelines as set by the game. When it breaks those rules, it breaks the suspension of disbelief, because it makes you think, "Now why is it like that?" shattering the immersion. This is one of those instances where the illogic brings you up short. Now there may be a good reason for it, but I have never seen one, and would like this explained with something other than "because it's magic".
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If it matters just change it in your campaigns, I myself are a little more bugged by dragons getting the fire subtype making them vulnerable to cold while dragins that breathe acid or lightning dont have any particular vulnerability. I do not think the fire/cold subtype mechanics are [articulary suitable in this case. It might have beeen alright if they had another immunity or resitance to balance it a bit.
As it is I just houserule gold and red dragons as not being cold vulnerable, silver dragons acid immunity seems a bit random.. I'd just remove it and strip fire vulnerability.
For the silver you could argue that it might be because they are vulnerable to the most common energy type around, so it got balanced by being immune to the least common (of the basic 4) energy type around.
Ofcourse they didnt do this for the white, but that dragon has a role to play as the runt of all the true dragons.
I am not as familar with Pathfinder dragons, but in the Dragonlance world the Metallic dragons were against the Chromatic dragons, and the chromatic and metallic dragons seemed to both have a lot of immunities to attacks of their enemy, probably to make the battles more dynamic and require melee in flight type of situations.
Might be a carry-over from 2e? I'll have to look at my 2e stuff.
I'm going to guess it is because angels are immune to acid, and silver dragons seem to have a strong association with them. Aren't they supposed to be the paladins of the dragon world?
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Or why is a Ferret immune to cockatrice petrification?
It's because of snakes. Cockatrice are related to snakes and chickens... both of which ferrets hunt.
It's one of those sympathetic association things.
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Or why is a Ferret immune to cockatrice petrification?
Actually unrelated to the game. It's a cockatrice legendary creature thing. Ferrets and weasels are immune to cockatrice's poison.
If you want a weird game thing, look at Elves being immune to Ghoul paralyzation.
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It doesn't need a "reason why." It needs a "reason why not."
I am not as familar with Pathfinder dragons, but in the Dragonlance world the Metallic dragons were against the Chromatic dragons, and the chromatic and metallic dragons seemed to both have a lot of immunities to attacks of their enemy, probably to make the battles more dynamic and require melee in flight type of situations.
This is a good explanation, IMO.
Silver dragons are immune to acid because silver dragons are the primary metallic opponents against the acid-breathing chromatic dragons.
@Thraxital: The only chromatic dragons with acidic breath are blacks and greens, neither of which share the silver dragon's preferred terrain. Why would they come up against those types more often than say reds, who DO share their preferred terrain?
@Trainwreck: Silvers aren't celestials, let alone outsiders. Just because they often work together and towards the same ends, doesn't mean that their immunity would "rub off" on them. By that logic, silvers should be able to smite evil.
@Sean K Reynolds: I disagree. If I were to make a slime immune to all energy forms, DR30/magic and good, 25 hit dice, and regeneration 20/negative energy, I better have a darn good and logical reason for giving it such a weird combination of defenses. And if you want "a reason why not" then how about they are extremely unlikely to come across situation in their natural habitat where acid immunity comes into play?
@AvalonXQ: Except that they're not. The only acid-breathing dragon they're likely to encounter would be greens, and even then, a red is about ten times more likely to tussle with a silver. A copper is more likely to go head-to-head with a green or a black (warm hills, temperate forests, and warm marshes respectively), and they are immune to acid.
Sorry if all that sounded sarcastic. Such was not my intent.
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If I had to guess, editing error back when 3rd edition was being designed, since 3rd is when it showed up on silver dragons. Here's my just-so story:
1st and 2nd edition gold dragons could breathe both "poisonous chlorine gas" (same stuff as a green dragon) and fire (same stuff as a red dragon), and so in 2nd edition were immune to both gasses and fire.
Third edition converted the green dragon's breath weapon from "poisonous chlorine gas" to "corrosive (acid) gas" and its immunity from gasses to acid. I expect the gold's second breath weapon was made acid at the same point in drafting. So the gold dragon was then supposed to get a conversion of its gas immunity to acid immunity like the green dragon, but it was accidentally marked down on the silver dragon instead.
Later in drafting the gold dragon's breath weapon was converted from acid gas to weakening gas . . . but nobody noticed the incongruous presence of acid immunity over on the silver dragon.
Anyway, it isn't a lie if it could be true!
If I had to guess, editing error back when 3rd edition was being designed, since 3rd is when it showed up on silver dragons. Here's my just-so story:
1st and 2nd edition gold dragons could breathe both "poisonous chlorine gas" (same stuff as a green dragon) and fire (same stuff as a red dragon), and so in 2nd edition were immune to both gasses and fire.
Third edition converted the green dragon's breath weapon from "poisonous chlorine gas" to "corrosive (acid) gas" and its immunity from gasses to acid. I expect the gold's second breath weapon was made acid at the same point in drafting. So the gold dragon was then supposed to get a conversion of its gas immunity to acid immunity like the green dragon, but it was accidentally marked down on the silver dragon instead.
Later in drafting the gold dragon's breath weapon was converted from acid gas to weakening gas . . . but nobody noticed the incongruous presence of acid immunity over on the silver dragon.
Anyway, it isn't a lie if it could be true!
That's the most plausible reason I've seen yet. I guess I'll dust off my old WotC account and ask them on their message boards to see what they say.
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@Sean K Reynolds: I disagree. If I were to make a slime immune to all energy forms, DR30/magic and good, 25 hit dice, and regeneration 20/negative energy, I better have a darn good and logical reason for giving it such a weird combination of defenses. And if you want "a reason why not" then how about they are extremely unlikely to come across situation in their natural habitat where acid immunity comes into play?
"Because it makes no sense for this monster to have this ability" is a perfectly valid "reason why not," as is "this makes combat too slow," or "this is going to frustrate an entire category of PCs" or "this makes the monster too powerful."
I'm just trying to make you look at the problem from a different perspective.
I'd much rather see a monster get an ability that makes it a cool and interesting encounter, even if there's no obvious explanation why the monster has that ability, than to rule out weird monsters having weird abilities because you don't have a strong justification for it having that ability.
For example, a marilith has crushing coils, an extraordinary ability that knocks unconscious a creature who takes damage from its constrict attack, even if it rolls minimum damage (2d6+10, Fort save negates). No other monster has that ability, so "you took a little damage, so you're KO'd even though you're well above half hit points" is unprecedented. There is no "reason why" the marilith should have this ability if a giant octopus doesn't. But there's also no "reason why not" to give it this ability--it doesn't make the monster too hard, it doesn't make the encounter silly, and so on.
Sometimes monster design is knowing when to say, "this monster needs more to make it stand out from other monsters of its type, environment, or CR." And sometimes monster design is knowing when to say, "time to pull back on what I'm giving this monster, it's too complex/too silly/too strong."
Does it hurt the silver dragon concept to make it immune to acid? No. Does it make it too powerful? No. Does it make it silly? No.
Maybe they fight Green Dragons alot. And tend to win.
"Because it makes no sense for this monster to have this ability" is a perfectly valid "reason why not," as is "this makes combat too slow," or "this is going to frustrate an entire category of PCs" or "this makes the monster too powerful."
I'm just trying to make you look at the problem from a different perspective.
I'd much rather see a monster get an ability that makes it a cool and interesting encounter, even if there's no obvious explanation why the monster has that ability, than to rule out weird monsters having weird abilities because you don't have a strong justification for it having that ability.
For example, a marilith has crushing coils, an extraordinary ability that knocks unconscious a creature who takes damage from its constrict attack, even if it rolls minimum damage (2d6+10, Fort save negates). No other monster has that ability, so "you took a little damage, so you're KO'd even though you're well above half hit points" is unprecedented. There is no "reason why" the marilith should have this ability if a giant octopus doesn't. But there's also no "reason why not" to give it this ability--it doesn't make the monster too hard, it doesn't make the encounter silly, and so on.
Sometimes monster design is knowing when to say, "this monster needs more to make it stand out from other monsters of its type, environment, or CR." And sometimes monster design is knowing when to say, "time to pull back on what I'm giving this monster, it's too complex/too silly/too strong."
Does it hurt the silver dragon concept to make it immune to acid? No. Does it make...
I guess I'm trying to apply too much logic to the situation. It just doesn't make any sense to me to have a creature that has no offensive capabilities that include acid, or doesn't have to defend itself against acidic attacks on a regular basis from it's environment should have immunity to it.
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Does it hurt the silver dragon concept to make it immune to acid? No. Does it...
No. But it does hurt the djinn concept not being immune to electricity and being immune to acid. Same with Shaitan being immune to electricity but no to acid.
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Does it hurt the silver dragon concept to make it immune to acid? No.
It might.
Random wierd aberrations you can expect might have wierd random powers and immunities. The core dragons you expect to have baseline abilities thematically appropriate to their niches and D&D history.
New dragon types or individual dragons might reasonably have unique abilities that are not thematically apparent to make them interesting variants from the baseline with a surprise but the core 10 dragon types are the baseline that should be archetypal thematic encounters out of the box.
They have wings, scales, and natural weapons. They have magic. They have breath weapons specific to their type. They have an environmental/elemental and style type niche that ties a lot of their abilities together.
The metallics have long had a wierd aspect with their second breath weapon, but adding in additional new unexplained aspects that do not mesh well with their concepts does not aid their role as core iconic creatures in the base game.
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For example, a marilith has crushing coils, an extraordinary ability that knocks unconscious a creature who takes damage from its constrict attack, even if it rolls minimum damage (2d6+10, Fort save negates). No other monster has that ability, so "you took a little damage, so you're KO'd even though you're well above half hit points" is unprecedented. There is no "reason why" the marilith should have this ability if a giant octopus doesn't. But there's also no "reason why not" to give it this ability--it doesn't make the monster too hard, it doesn't make the encounter silly, and so on.
Except it makes sense in the narrative. Apparently the marilith uses her powerful tail to choke you out. She does this, we understand why.
The silver dragon is immune to acid. Because...
It's a matter of verisimilitude and the rules meshing with what you see in the world.
There's a reason that people aren't asking "why does a marilith knock people out with her tail" but they are asking why the silver dragon is immune to acid. That alone says enough.
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Except it makes sense in the narrative. Apparently the marilith uses her powerful tail to choke you out. She does this, we understand why.
The silver dragon is immune to acid. Because...
It's a matter of verisimilitude and the rules meshing with what you see in the world.
There's a reason that people aren't asking "why does a marilith knock people out with her tail" but they are asking why the silver dragon is immune to acid. That alone says enough.
Given some of the bizarre complaints I've seen on the Paizo boards in the past, I think the reason no one is complaining about the marilith is simply that nobody has gotten around to it yet :)
I'm with Sean here, I don't think it needs a reason. The fact that the acid immunity doesn't have an immediate explanation doesn't break verisimilitude for me at all (hell, some of the spell-like abilities various monsters get stretch sense far more than the silver's acid immunity), rather, it gives me a jumping off point if I want to flesh out silver dragons in my home game.
For example, maybe it's because they have a feud going on with green or black dragons. Black dragons especially have some conceptual traction--silver tarnishes to black after all, and the two have diametrically opposed alignments. That could set up a cool encounter, or even a whole adventure, where the PCs have to help a town caught between a pair of feuding dragons.
Or, on Golarion, silver dragons are described as paladin-like and serve as crusaders. When metallic and chromatic dragons fight, silvers are the vanguard and backbone of the metallic armies (Dragons Revisited 46). Since two of the five chromatic types have acid breath, I don't think it's unreasonable for silvers to have developed (or been granted by Apsu) an extra immunity.
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Maybe they fight Green Dragons alot. And tend to win.
Great. Now I'm going to spend the next hour on youtube watching videos of mongooses and cobras.
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Given some of the bizarre complaints I've seen on the Paizo boards in the past, I think the reason no one is complaining about the marilith is simply that nobody has gotten around to it yet :)
Hmmm, sadly that's a good point. :(
It's not particularly bothersome to me either. I was merely pointing out why it bothers some as opposed to abilities that seem to make more sense or be more natural. There's nothing I recall in the lore that would hint at the reason they're immune to acid for example. I could see electricity since they have traditionally lived in the sky and have a lot of cloud stuff (seems like being immune to lightning storms would suit them in their environment).
I think that's something people are looking for. It's not that they're immune, but that the immunity feels tacked on or nonsensical. It would be like if I created a magical beast native to open plains that was a two headed sabertooth cat that has a mind disrupting roar that dazes its prey. I write some lore about how it hunts on the open plains, and while it doesn't move quickly its stealth allows it to get close to prey and then it uses its sonic attack to daze them while it makes the kill. Fantastic yet seemingly plausible. Oh, and it's immune to fire.
Wait, why is it immune to fire?
Explain why it isn't. Lol, whut?
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I wasn't aware that two people on a messageboard thread were that representative of the gaming community. I've never heard it asked about before this thread.For example, a marilith has crushing coils, an extraordinary ability that knocks unconscious a creature who takes damage from its constrict attack, even if it rolls minimum damage (2d6+10, Fort save negates). No other monster has that ability, so "you took a little damage, so you're KO'd even though you're well above half hit points" is unprecedented. There is no "reason why" the marilith should have this ability if a giant octopus doesn't. But there's also no "reason why not" to give it this ability--it doesn't make the monster too hard, it doesn't make the encounter silly, and so on.Except it makes sense in the narrative. Apparently the marilith uses her powerful tail to choke you out. She does this, we understand why.
The silver dragon is immune to acid. Because...
It's a matter of verisimilitude and the rules meshing with what you see in the world.
There's a reason that people aren't asking "why does a marilith knock people out with her tail" but they are asking why the silver dragon is immune to acid. That alone says enough.
What's your problem Lazar? I never said anything about the "gaming community". I said people. Are they people? Yes. Did they question it? Yes. Are you having trouble following?
....thread necroing a 2 year old post just to disagree with a developer, and then FAQing a post that's almost never asked? This thread confuses me.
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Hmm, now that I think about it considering their theme and environment electricity immunity makes more sense/is better flavour than acid immunity.
I mean, I can accept "just because" in monster design but I think it'd be thematically stronger if they were immune to cold and electricity.
Two words ...
Acid rain.
'Nuff said. ;)
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Based on their spells, imagery, abilities, and flavor, they're thematically tied to Angels, which also immune to acid and cold.
+1 to what eakratz said. Science is good to use every once in a while
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Okay, okay... My turn!
You know how Human Paladins can pick resistance against 1 type of energy as their favored class bonus? You know how silver dragons are the most paladinesque creatures ever (other than LG outsiders, at least), to the point where dragons revisited says Paladins are just a pale imitation of silver dragons?
Well... That Acid Resistance is how they used their Favored Class Bonus.
:)
Acid just makes silver shiny?
I still really like the idea that they're always hunting down black dragons like mongooses and cobras.
I'm sorry. I think that I resurrected the thread. I just was searching in the forums an explanation of why djinn Were immune to acid and Shaitan to electricity. Or an errata.
And I found this. I will just change the immunities. Sorry for bothering the community.
Maybe it was a case of " we have dragons with fire, cold, electric, etc immunity, so lets give this one acid."
I think the poster that brought up dragonlance was on the right track. It does not have to do with type it has to do with relative power level. In the Dragon lance world and D&D in general I suppose Silvers are the second most powerful good dragon. The are often in combat with the mid power evil dragons green and black both of which have acid attacks. Thus acid immunity.