Billzabub |
Question for discussion: is PFRPG suffering from a dreaded case of Rules Bloat?
There are now so many options, it gives me, a casual pbp gamer, a serious headache. It's hard to keep up with everything put out by Paizo, much less the 3PPs. There's core classes, base classes and prestige classes, archetypes and alternative class features, racial alternative rules and traits, class particular talents, regular traits, and a million feats (256 in UC? seriously?). Now, I know, I don't have to play in a game where everything is allowed and can well limit myself to just the core book or even the upcoming Beginner's Set (although I'm not a beginner), but it still makes it difficult to follow the conversations on the boards. I frequently browse threads and feel like I have no idea what people are talking about.
So, I ask, is PFRPG suffering Rules Bloat? and when is enough enough?
Please note I have no problem with Paizo's business model and compliment them on generating rules books AND plenty of adventures, unlike another major publisher. I'm just curious as to other peoples thoughts on this topic.
Kaisoku |
When Paizo created Pathfinder, it was to keep the 3.5e system somewhat alive. The problem was that not much after the core rules was made Open Content, and despite trying to keep things mostly backward compatible, having people rely on converting old 3.5e content would be unsatisfactory.
So they've now started covering the bases. Improving options for casters, for non-casters, races, adding alternative options to various parts of the game, etc.
The main difference so far has been that instead of having dozens of new books to look at beyond core rules, you have half a dozen books chocked full of alternative rules and options.
You can pick up the Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat, and you've probably covered almost every "Complete" book from 3.5e (and more).
Perhaps the rules and options seem about the same as 3.5e. But to me, the "book bloat" and "useless content bloat" is far, far lower. The lack of endless prestige classes (whole new classes with requirements) being replaced with archetypes (minor tweaks to existing classes), feels a lot easier on my sensibilities too.
Perhaps that's simply a side effect of putting out better quality content.
Thazar |
If you are asking the short answer is no in my opinion. I like having lots of options. Yes there is a lot out there... but you only need to know what is being used in the game you are playing right now. In more detail if you are a DM... but even less if you are a player.
That can be boiled down to a couple of books, or if you are missing a book then you can get it from many of the fan sites dedicated to Pathfinder Society, PFRPG, or Golarion that are out there. Plus of course the official PRD.
A vibrant game will always have more books being published. And over the years it is nice to have lots of ways to create the character in your imagination. Some of this can be done with an RP hand wave... but it is even cooler when you can have a mechanical effect in game for the things you imagine.
Links to some of the ones I use all the time... even though I own almost all the books... they are not always in front of me.
umbralatro |
I don't think they have gotten there yet. So far I think they've done a pretty good job of keeping the number of books down and the power creep from getting too bad. 3.5 suffered quite a bit from a thousand books that each had on average about 10 useful things. These books are pretty highly saturated with useful info.
Additionally I hated how reliant 3.5 was on Prestige Classes. It meant that your character didn't really hit that thematic stride for you until about 6-7th level. The first few levels were so chock full of meeting requirements that it hurt. With the proliferation of Alternate Classes/Abilities, I think this has allowed them to give more options, but since they alter your character from the beginning, they still add some flavor and roleplay to it, which was greatly needed.
leo1925 |
I also don't think that we have a rules bloat, sure there are those alternative systems (duels, magical duels, words of power, wounds etc.) but you can always ignore those because i don't think that there are more than a handful of feats and a couple (if any) archetypes using them.
Now about the numerous archetypes and options, i don't mind about them, i plan to slowly digest all of them.
Derek Vande Brake |
I think we are right about where we need to be, at this point. Further offerings should probably either be in campaign setting materials, or focus on entirely new rule systems (psionics, for example). There are few character concepts, at this point, that don't fit into one of the established classes/archetypes/prestige classes already presented.
Except maybe CG and LE paladins. :P
Bruunwald |
This again? The only bloat I experience is from the same questions coming up again and again, exploding into overblown threads that probably go on long past their expiration dates.
No, I don't think there is bloat. I think there are options. It makes me happy to have a broad spectrum of genres to sample from (Oriental, Steampunk, etc.) in the official rules without having to go to third parties to get it. To me, the bloat in 3.5 came from a stodgy reluctance on the part of Wizards to move into covering unusual arenas in any place other than Eberron (which I never cared for) or in one-time situations such as a crossover with Five Rings (which they promptly left behind and never updated.) That left them with much more limited options than Paizo has, creating samneness and redundancy in style, mechanic, feel, etc. So no I don't think it's the same thing.
Anybody who wants to keep their game simple is invited to join me in the Happy Land of Skimming for Things You DO Like and Ignoring Everything Else.
Xaaon of Korvosa |
It depends on your perspective.
If you're a fledgling GM, then yes it's extremely bloated and with the already complex Pathfinder RPG, you're going to be swamped.
If you're an experienced GM, not really, while there are lots of options, not many are game breakers, except in the hands of the power gamer.
If you're a Power Gamer, then probably not yet, since you're looking for the next thing to add to your already formidable repertoire of tricks.
If you're a PFS GM, then maybe, as there's a list of what's available to use and you don't have the ability to say no you can't use X combination.
In your games you run, you can allow or disallow anything you want, I know there's a plethora of GMs who have already disallowed the Gunfighter.
If you're a player always ask your GM if X is ok to play. And understand a broken combination might be outlawed in the future if they become untenable.
Bob_Loblaw |
Let me ask a few questions:
1) Adventures and fluff aren't going to sell as well as crunch. How would you propose Paizo to stay in business.
2) What options are so overwhelming as to make the game unweildy? Most feats are not going to be considered for most characters but there are some concepts that will benefit from the new choices.
3) Instead of looking at the options as a bunch of new rules, why not look at them as pul and play rules that you can worry about learning/using as you need them. For example, I am not familiar with the new druid options with shape change and have no need to worry myself with them since there aren't any druids in my current game.
I see the additional rules as small options I can use when I need. I don't have to use them all at once. Heck, I don't even use most of the options in the Core Book most of the time. We don't see many divine casters so I don't really worry about knowing about all the different domains.