Pathfinder is the best selling RPG in Q2, according to ICv2


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Silver Crusade

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ICv2 has posted an updated Top 5 RPG chart for Q2/2011.

Guess who's on the top.

Great news for the Paizo crew on the opening day of GenCon, gratz!

Shadow Lodge

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YAY!


Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/

Liberty's Edge

Gorbacz wrote:

ICv2 has posted an updated Top 5 RPG chart for Q2/2011.

Guess who's on the top.

Great news for the Paizo crew on the opening day of GenCon, gratz!

Awesome!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

As good as I hear the last monster vault was, there really has been a long stretch with very few 4E releases.

Congrats to Paizo. According to the Black Diamond Games blog all of the PF hardcovers continue to sell well this summer.

Web Product Manager

Removed a post. Personal attacks/jokes at others expense aren't cool.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Congrats Paizo!


hogarth wrote:
Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/

Didn't Homer Simpson teach us something to the effect that winning by forfeit is the best kind of winning?


Dire Mongoose wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/
Didn't Homer Simpson teach us something to the effect that winning by forfeit is the best kind of winning?

Heh...the two sweetest words in the English language: de-fault!

In seriousness, I'm sure Paizo has done very well with Pathfinder. Congratulations to them!

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Congratulations to Paizo! It's great to see a company who demonstrates such outstanding customer interaction achieve continued success. Well done.


hogarth wrote:
Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/

I'm confused. When I check WotC's website, they show Heroes of Shadow (April), The Shadowfell (May), and Monster Vault: Nentir Vale (June). Do these not count for this comparison? Did they not release them on schedule and just not update the website? I would think they would count as Q2 sales.

Not trying to be snarky; genuine question since I don't follow 4E products very much.

Dark Archive

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hogarth wrote:
Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/

supply and demand

if there is no demand then there is no supply...


markofbane wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/

I'm confused. When I check WotC's website, they show Heroes of Shadow (April), The Shadowfell (May), and Monster Vault: Nentir Vale (June). Do these not count for this comparison? Did they not release them on schedule and just not update the website? I would think they would count as Q2 sales.

Not trying to be snarky; genuine question since I don't follow 4E products very much.

You're right, I was exaggerating and/or talking out of my butt. But note that Jan/Feb/Mar didn't have many new books, at least from what I can see on their product page; that must affect sales in the following quarter as well, surely.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
markofbane wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/

I'm confused. When I check WotC's website, they show Heroes of Shadow (April), The Shadowfell (May), and Monster Vault: Nentir Vale (June). Do these not count for this comparison? Did they not release them on schedule and just not update the website? I would think they would count as Q2 sales.

Not trying to be snarky; genuine question since I don't follow 4E products very much.

Yes, but that is far less than what they put out in the first several years of 4E. And compared to 3-4 books a month that Paizo is putting out, practically nothing.


chopswil wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/

supply and demand

if there is no demand then there is no supply...

Nice!


Mournblade94 wrote:
chopswil wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Funny how that works when WotC stops putting out 4E D&D books... :-/

supply and demand

if there is no demand then there is no supply...

Nice!

Very wise words indeed.

Congrats again Paizo.

Sovereign Court

Is this the first time the current edition of D&D has ever been outsold by any other rpg? Did white wolf get close back in the 90s?


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Robert Hawkshaw wrote:
Is this the first time the current edition of D&D has ever been outsold by any other rpg? Did white wolf get close back in the 90s?

I think White Wolf was beating TSR while TSR was going broke. I haven't seen any market reports from that time period though. WotC would have had the numbers, but they haven't shared them.

It is certainly the first time since 2000.

Dark Archive

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I do recall a guy on the en boards, saying that he would eat a sock if pathfinder was a success and Erik Mona asking his mail to send his own... my question is Mr Mona, were they used or clean? xD


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blundith wrote:
I do recall a guy on the en boards, saying that he would eat a sock if pathfinder was a success and Erik Mona asking his mail to send his own... my question is Mr Mona, were they used or clean? xD

Arguably, Pathfinder has been a success for two years now. Now they are just king of the hill.

Sovereign Court

Found it.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/221881-paizo-annoucement-23.html #post4117144

I wonder if he ever ate that sock.

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I have some leftover pie I could send him...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I already congratulated Paizo over on the RPG.net thread a few days ago (which was spawned by the ENWorld thread) but I will re-iterate it again - well done Paizo!

I know this is hardly hard and fast fact (its only based on interviews with a subset of retailer and distributors and doesn't take account of online sales, Paizo or DDI subscriptions) but still it is presumably indicative of the game's popularity,

Whatever issues I have with the Pathfinder RPG I cannot fault the fact that you produce what appear to be high quality products and support them well with map packs, card sets, miniatures (first Ral Partha and now Wizkids) and PDF versions of the books (I just bought 3 more, ncludihng Inner Sea World Guide because it was so cheap).

And this is not to mention the organised play with seems to be the only living game in town in my neck of the woods (Living Traveller has stalled, Living Glorantha has ceased with the licence, and LFR just doesn't get played as much it seems).

So, not worrying about who is second, third or forth, lets just congratulate Paizo on the simple fact that they came first for this quarter.

Shadow Lodge

Gratz to Paizo and to Lisa and company for finding the right path. (See what I did there?) Also, a tangential gratz goes out to Ryan Dancey for giving her the business plan idea in the first place. I'm also pretty darn proud of '3e' in general for surviving/thriving longer than almost any other system in gaming.

:)


deinol wrote:

I think White Wolf was beating TSR while TSR was going broke. I haven't seen any market reports from that time period though. WotC would have had the numbers, but they haven't shared them.

It is certainly the first time since 2000.

I actually think it was Palladium beating TSR, not White Wolf. And that was during the period where TSR wasn't publishing anything, due to "problems at the printer" (said problem being that they couldn't pay the printer).


Gorbacz wrote:

ICv2 has posted an updated Top 5 RPG chart for Q2/2011.

Guess who's on the top.

Great news for the Paizo crew on the opening day of GenCon, gratz!

Remember, as they admit ("In the RPG category, we estimate that Paizo's Pathfinder won the quarter, behind more and stronger releases than Dungeons & Dragons.") these are estimates. As a skeptic, I'd like to know more about their methods. I don't know how to interpret this:

"The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers."


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
jocundthejolly wrote:

Remember, as they admit ("In the RPG category, we estimate that Paizo's Pathfinder won the quarter, behind more and stronger releases than Dungeons & Dragons.") these are estimates. As a skeptic, I'd like to know more about their methods. I don't know how to interpret this:

"The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers."

They gather data from a lot of parts of the game industry. If you want a single store's numbers, check out Black Diamond Games blog. They are a successful store in the bay area that has a wide range of customers.

ICv2 has been doing these reports for quite a few years now. Nobody inside the industry has ever (to my knowledge) complained about their accuracy.


Nobody's ever had really rigorous game sales stats, so, yes, always take the reports with a grain of salt. Still, the survey-based numbers done by ICv2 (and before that, Comics & Games Retailer, back when that was a going concern, 1996-2007) are the best available.

Liberty's Edge

Congratulations, Paizo!! I hope that Lisa and the team are enjoying themselves at Gen Con.

Liberty's Edge

Robert Hawkshaw wrote:

Found it.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/221881-paizo-annoucement-23.html #post4117144

I wonder if he ever ate that sock.

I am resisting the urge to reply to that thread. It might be petty.

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Staffan Johansson wrote:
I actually think it was Palladium beating TSR, not White Wolf. And that was during the period where TSR wasn't publishing anything, due to "problems at the printer" (said problem being that they couldn't pay the printer).

I'm pretty certain that it was White Wolf, because there was a period in the 1990s where the World of Darkness was the new hotness, and that period happened to coincide with TSR going bust.

Regardless of who it was, this has to be the first time when a lesser-known RPG has overtaken D&D without the company that owns D&D going under.

Even better news is the news linked off those estimates charts that say the gaming hobby saw growth in the first two quarters of 2011. Sure, it doesn't limit itself to just the RPG section of gaming, but that's still good news. The more people in one part of the hobby, the more a chance there is that the Pathfinder RPG will continue to grow...especially with stuff like the upcoming basic set coming out to catch newbies.

Shadow Lodge

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blundith wrote:
I do recall a guy on the en boards, saying that he would eat a sock if pathfinder was a success and Erik Mona asking his mail to send his own... my question is Mr Mona, were they used or clean? xD

He did say in 2009, so he's free of sock eating. Still, looking at those old posts from 2008-09, it certainly shows how the world has changed. The thing is Pathfinder on top really doesn't surprise anyone any more, and that is a HUGE change.

Paizo, IMHO has not only taken over the top spot, but has taken over the the position of cultural leader in the RPG playing community. Now most RPG enthusiasts go to Paizo, rather that Wotc when looking for the 'next cool thing' the way that has happened only once before (in White Wolf's heyday).

That is the real accomplishment.


Nicely done Boys and Girls!!! My gaming groups never had a doubt you would be ruling the roost one day!

Even if the details are not solid fact, it is still good to see and in my mind, fact!

Have Fun Out There!!

~ W ~

Liberty's Edge

All I know is that in the UK, as well as the gamers I know who are Pathfinder lovers, I go to a couple of conventions a year (Conception and Oddcon) and almost everyone I talk to there are big fans of Pathfinder over D&D. So in my small part of the world Paizo is definitely doing great

Sovereign Court

Grats Paizo!

Unfortunately people in Serbia generally do not play pathfinder, just because D&D is better known and available, the only time i actualy saw a pathfinder book in a LGS was when a friend of mine ordered several hardcovers and Paizo accidentally mailed them a copy of Ultimate Magic. It sits there, among other RPGs, waiting for me or my friend to by it when we have the cash, and a whole shelf next to the other RPG shelf is D&D. And when i asked why don't they stock Pathfinder, the employees at the store don't like it, and their boss knows jack about rpg stuff. And that is one of the two LGSs in Belgrade which is a capitol of Serbia and has 3 mill population. There is also one more gaming store in another city, but that one is even worse.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Asteldian Caliskan wrote:
All I know is that in the UK, as well as the gamers I know who are Pathfinder lovers, I go to a couple of conventions a year (Conception and Oddcon) and almost everyone I talk to there are big fans of Pathfinder over D&D. So in my small part of the world Paizo is definitely doing great

I have to agree, LFR at those conventions is run, but not nearly as many tables as PFS. In fact...

At Conception 2011 out of 408 table-top games reported as running, Pathfinder came out on top which I think is pretty much all PFS.

1. Pathfinder (91 Tables)
2. D&D 4.0 (48 Tables)
3. Call of Cthulhu (28 Tables)
4. D&D 3.5 and derivatives (23 Tables) (Includes LIHR)
6. Traveller (17 Tables - Joint 6th)
6. WHFRP & WH40K (Dark Heresy & Deathwatch) (17 Tables - Joint 6th)
7. Savage Worlds (14 Tables)
8. Spycraft:FQAC (13 Tables)
9. When Worlds Collide (12 Tables)
10. Grims Gangs (8 Tables)

Source: http://www.ukroleplayers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9897

And that also shows why I got back into PFS, the number of 3.5 games has dropped considerably so if I want a game of 3.x PF seems the better choice.

EDIT: 2010's figures:

356 tables reported

1. D&D 4.0 (80 Tables) (of which 79 were Living Forgotten Realms)
2. D&D 3.0 and 3.5 (50 Tables - unchanged from last year) (includes 23 Pathfinder, 10 LIHR and 4 Dragonmouth)

Source: http://www.ukroleplayers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7295

So from 23 to 91 tables!!!!! I wonder how many will be at Conception 2012?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Congradulations Paizo! well done. You all have worked hard and deserve this. Good luck next quarter!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

To be fair, LFR kind died when WotC pulled their official support out. Sure, its out there run by the fans, but chances of it returning to former glory are zero.

D&D Encounters are likley where the good stuff happens now as far as 4E OP is concerned. I'm wondering how will the GenCon numbers compare.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
D&D Encounters are likley where the good stuff happens now as far as 4E OP is concerned. I'm wondering how will the GenCon numbers compare.

Are Encounters being run at GenCon?

The impression I got was that ENcounters are designed for play in game stores, which doesn't really work for game stores in the UK where in store play rarely seems to happen (at least in my experience, and mainly due to a lack of space).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DigitalMage wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
D&D Encounters are likley where the good stuff happens now as far as 4E OP is concerned. I'm wondering how will the GenCon numbers compare.

Are Encounters being run at GenCon?

The impression I got was that ENcounters are designed for play in game stores, which doesn't really work for game stores in the UK where in store play rarely seems to happen (at least in my experience, and mainly due to a lack of space).

I might be wrong, but there seems to be some major Neverwinter-related OP event at GenCon, I assumed it's D&D Encounters related ... I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable about 4E will set me straight :)


Gorbacz wrote:
DigitalMage wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
D&D Encounters are likley where the good stuff happens now as far as 4E OP is concerned. I'm wondering how will the GenCon numbers compare.

Are Encounters being run at GenCon?

The impression I got was that ENcounters are designed for play in game stores, which doesn't really work for game stores in the UK where in store play rarely seems to happen (at least in my experience, and mainly due to a lack of space).

I might be wrong, but there seems to be some major Neverwinter-related OP event at GenCon, I assumed it's D&D Encounters related ... I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable about 4E will set me straight :)

It is to help promote the NeverWinter Computer game and promote the NeverWinter campaign setting for 4E coming this fall

Dark Archive

Gorbacz wrote:
To be fair, LFR kind died when WotC pulled their official support out. Sure, its out there run by the fans, but chances of it returning to former glory are zero.

Never say never, I mean some people said they same thing about 3.x and pathfinder to.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
To be fair, LFR kind died when WotC pulled their official support out. Sure, its out there run by the fans, but chances of it returning to former glory are zero.
Never say never, I mean some people said they same thing about 3.x and pathfinder to.

You mean Paizo should buy out LFR and run it? Naaaaah... ;)


Robert Hawkshaw wrote:

Found it.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/221881-paizo-annoucement-23.html #post4117144

I wonder if he ever ate that sock.

I love this quote from that thread:

"I have a dimmer view of what "the necessary funds" means than Dimitris. I'm sure he means enough to produce a pretty and slick hardcover RPG that will look nice sitting on the shelf at an FLGS. I mean enough to do what Wizards can do through Hasbro - get it into game, book and toy distribution channels and get print and possibly radio and television advertising out there so that people are made aware of the product without specifically seeking it out.

Pathfinder's chance of doing that is exactly zero. Newcomer products with very little brick-and-mortar presence don't knock off highly established products with a heavy presence. Despite the increased prominence of E-tailers in recent years, brick-and-mortar stores still make up the overwhelming bulk of retail sales; E-commerce has only barely managed to become profitable overall in the last year or two. I'm not knocking what Paizo has accomplished with their store and with Pathfinder in only a handful of years and seven months respectively, but you're looking at the progress of a startup. It LOOKS like a lot of progress, but it's still only a VERY small company and there's a limit to both what it and its distribution network can handle. "

:) Awesome.

Edit - actually, there's a whole lotta crow being eaten in that thread.

Wow. Go paizo!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Dude needs to put a sock in it.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Kerney wrote:
blundith wrote:
I do recall a guy on the en boards, saying that he would eat a sock if pathfinder was a success and Erik Mona asking his mail to send his own... my question is Mr Mona, were they used or clean? xD
He did say in 2009, so he's free of sock eating.

Except he said: "If the Pathfinder RPG is one of the top five bestselling products that Paizo publishes in 2009, I will eat a stinky sock."

Not, beat D&D in 2009. Be one of Paizo's bestselling products in 2009. The Core Rulebook has to have been Paizo's bestselling product on release. They had to reprint it almost immediately.

I doubt there is a youtube video of him eating a sock though.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm having an absolute BALL reading that one Enworld thread.

From Ari Marmell's "Yeah, Paizo is going to do Pathfinder for a year or two and then go 4E, otherwise it's a really bad idea." to gems from other posters such as:

"they're going to regret this decision"
"so, they ignored any proper business due dilligence"
"Paizo betrayed D&D"
"A 3.5 derivative, while it may profit in the short-term, is ultimately a losing proposition. The customer base isn't going to grow. The 'Pathfinder RPG' will not be able to hold its own on the shelf next to D&D."
"My prediction, however, is that this path will provide sufficient revenue initially but that 4e proceeds will increase while the 3.5e proceeds will diminish, and that in a few years Pathfinder will be switching to 4e."
"In 1-2 years, Paizo *will* have the GSL and *will* move to 4E."

But my absolute favorite, given how things have turned out, is this one:

"Third, my prediction is that in the short term this will do well, and in the long term it will prove an unwise move. Eventually most people will move over to 4e, and leave the vestiges of 3e behind. I suspect in two-three years we will see someone like Necro buying out Paizo for pennies on the dollar."

Which is absolutely golden given what happened to Necromancer Games and Paizo in the end :)


ENworld is loads of fun when is a matter of edition warring.

And when is a matter of justifying every thing WotC does, included hypotetical puppies shooting ("in this case, shooting puppies whas the only thing reasonable to do for WotC..").

Thank you Gorbacz for the post. i will print it in a 10x10 feet poster for the sad moments.

is intriguing to see that Ari Marmell is nevertheless better as a diviner than as a Game Designer (Tome of Magic Shadowcaster, as an example).


Ari Marmell. Didn't they s@**can him?

But those comments don't surprise me. It's enworld.

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