mind flayers are copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast.
cant we just change the name to brain eaters? or ellithids, cant we make a copy of them with out using them?
The role it filled has been taken by the Intellect devourer as it is not open content so can not be used.
Sounds like it but i might have missed something.
I was looking for mindflayer stats the other day but i was stuned to realise that there is actualy none!Does it exist in some adventure path or other product and if no can we hope to see it in the upcoming 3rd monster book?
My plans was to simply convert them from the 3.5 versions to Pathfinder using the conversions rules.
cant we just change the name to brain eaters? or ellithids, cant we make a copy of them with out using them?Jason and Erik did state several times that they are not interested in going around WotC's IP by creating something that's "the same only slightly different and with different name".
I am not trying to be a troll here in any way , I was honestly curious about it,
i was not quite sure what was copywrited the fact that they are squid faced and live in the underdark and called illythids? or there 5d8 mind drain ability or what? the reason I was asking is i know they have the paizo version of the underdark they just don't call it the under dark they call it the darklands.
I did not know if was one of those things or what if this is one of "those" topics. I withdraw my questions
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cant we just change the name to brain eaters? or ellithids, cant we make a copy of them with out using them?Jason and Erik did state several times that they are not interested in going around WotC's IP by creating something that's "the same only slightly different and with different name".I am not trying to be a troll here in any way , I was honestly curious about it,
i was not quite sure what was copywrited the fact that they are squid faced and live in the underdark and called illythids? or there 5d8 mind drain ability or what? the reason I was asking is i know they have the paizo version of the underdark they just don't call it the under dark they call it the darklands.
I did not know if was one of those things or what if this is one of "those" topics. I withdraw my questions
Well, the Underdark, while the name may be intellectual property of WotC, embodies a general theme (extensive caves filled with dangers and unknown creatures) taken from several pulp and pre pulp stories (z.B. Pellucidar or Journey to the Centre of the Earth), thus, unless Paizo copies too many of the unique concepts WotC brought into the underdark theme (or uses the name) there is not even the hint of a copyright issue.
Mind Flayers (Squid faced Creatures wit strong telepathic powers, the whole fluff provided by WotC 2nd to 3rd edition), Beholders (giant floating balls covered with eyestalks that hold immense magic powers are a bit different. If you only change the name but keep the whole fluff and powers stuff, it is pretty clearly a derivative work and might anger WotC. If you change the name and the fluff and use only some of the powers, there is probably no problem, but also no point in using the concept at all.
Paizo could probably find a way to use "Ellithids" or "Booholders" that are at least not clear cases of copyright violations, but the question "Do we really need this so much that we get into a nerve wrecking and possibly very expensive hassle with Hasbros lawyers?" probably makes them dismiss the whole idea right from the start.
that makes sense form what i understand paizo is on pretty good terms with wotc and i would think they would like it to stay that way
I am surprised they even got stuff like the owl bear
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I am surprised they even got stuff like the owl bear
Owlbears are specifically made open content in the 3.5 SRD.
Several monsters aren't, however. Beholders, Mind Flayers, Githyanki/zerai, Displacer Beasts, Umber Hulks, Carrion Crawlers (who would have thought), Kuo Toa are all closed content and property of WotC.
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Of course the couerl shows up in one of the AP bestiary - the couerl being the inspiration for the Displacer Beast.
This is one of the things that really pisses me off about "Intellectual Property Rights" - back in the 70s when gaming got started, few people cared about IP, and a lot of early creatures were "inspired" (i.e. directly lifted) from fantasy sources. And then later, those stolen ideas were copyrighted.
Consider the Githyanki. They're lifted directly out of George R.R. Martin's first published novel, he never gave permission and was never paid, but now (somehow) they are WOTC intellectual property?
Games Workshop does this BS too. Like the Beastmen - back in the early 80s Citadel had the rights to produce miniatures for RuneQuest, and created a bunch of Broo models. Broo are renamed beastmen, lifted more or less directly from Michael Moorcock's Elric novels. When Citadel lost the rights to make RuneQuest models, they released their Broo models anyways, under the name Beastmen - in the process making them exactly like Moorcock's beastmen (right down to the symbols of Chaos they used). Now, thirty+ years later, GW claims Beastmen (and the chaos star! which is an actual religious symbol used by actual religions!) as intellectual property.
It's a bunch of thieves clutching onto stolen property and loudly insisting no one has a right to "steal" their ill-gotten goods.
I am surprised they even got stuff like the owl bearOwlbears are specifically made open content in the 3.5 SRD.
Several monsters aren't, however. Beholders, Mind Flayers, Githyanki/zerai, Displacer Beasts, Umber Hulks, Carrion Crawlers (who would have thought), Kuo Toa are all closed content and property of WotC.
I never did hear why WotC choose to make some open content and others not. Take the rust monster for example, that is definitely something that Gygax and the gang invented back in the day. Yet it's open content. The beholder was another original creation, so I understand keeping it closed content.
While mind flayers, obviously inspired by Lovecraft, are closed content. Okay, maybe I can see keeping them closed because they are so iconic, but carrion crawlers?
Does anyone really know why they picked what they did?
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Hookers, blow and a dart board?
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I am surprised they even got stuff like the owl bearOwlbears are specifically made open content in the 3.5 SRD.
Several monsters aren't, however. Beholders, Mind Flayers, Githyanki/zerai, Displacer Beasts, Umber Hulks, Carrion Crawlers (who would have thought), Kuo Toa are all closed content and property of WotC.
I never did hear why WotC choose to make some open content and others not. Take the rust monster for example, that is definitely something that Gygax and the gang invented back in the day. Yet it's open content. The beholder was another original creation, so I understand keeping it closed content.
While mind flayers, obviously inspired by Lovecraft, are closed content. Okay, maybe I can see keeping them closed because they are so iconic, but carrion crawlers?
Does anyone really know why they picked what they did?
Beholders and Mindflayers are the most popular original WotC creations - in fact, they are iconic monsters of the franchise.
Giths are a big part of WotC cosmology, so I guess that's why.
I have no bloody idea why Carrion Crawlers and Kuo-Toa are closed content. Maybe somebody said "OK guys, we need one fishy humanoid type closed, pick one of three: Sahuagain, Localath, Kuo-Toa."
Perhaps Ryan Dancey can be persuaded to explain this, he was on WotC Brand Management team at the time...
tequila monkeys and throwing knives?
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I recently ran into this hiccup while converting a campaign path
** spoiler omitted **
Instead I used the Neh-Thalggu from Bestiary 2, and trust me, they more than make up for the brain eating scary space aberrations.
Again, unless you are publishing it or something similar, you can use an illithid. WotC lawyers are NOT going to bust down the door on your personal game and confiscate your dice. If the adventure says to use a mind flayer, then I see no real reason NOT to use one, whether I'm using Pathfinder, 3.5, 1E, or Swords & Wizardry. Golarion may not (canonically) have mind flayers, but Greyhawk most certainly does, and that is where that AP is located.
Perhaps Ryan Dancey can be persuaded to explain this, he was on WotC Brand Management team at the time...
He did explain this a while back. The creatures that were in the 3e Monster Manual that were declared Product Identity were those creatures that were, in the opinion of Ryan Dancey back in 2000, the ones that he thought could actually make WotC licensing money when used in non-game merchandise.
One can, of course, dispute the judgment of the 2000 edition of Ryan Dancey, but that's the criteria he used.
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cant we just change the name to brain eaters? or ellithids, cant we make a copy of them with out using them?Google the topics "copyright law" and "derivative works". You might find the results educational.
I don't know if you are trying to be a jerk here, but your post sounds like it. Maybe instead you could try saying "derivative works, are also protected by copyright. You can google copyright and derivative work for more info. "
Unless of course you were TRYING to be a jerk, in which you have other issues.
Mindflayers are not open content.
Paradigm Press had a temporary license to use them but now they are exclusive to WOTC.. Paradigm replaced them with an even more creepy alternative.. Whispering Ones.
Anyone know where I can get this info? My google-fu came up with nothing
EDIT - Nevermind I found it
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Mindflayers where fan-converted. check out the following threads:
non OGL Monsters
Mindflayer conversion?
I think Pazio, since they love Lovecraft material and have been placing it in, that perhaps they should just create a Star Spawn and Star Spawn Hybrid. Instead of psionic blasts it would have madness like powers. After all, mindflayers are just rip offs of Cthulhu.
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I think Pazio, since they love Lovecraft material and have been placing it in, that perhaps they should just create a Star Spawn and Star Spawn Hybrid. Instead of psionic blasts it would have madness like powers. After all, mindflayers are just rip offs of Cthulhu.
Star Spawn were in part 4 of Carrion Crown. And let's give Gygax/Arneson a bit of credit, other than the general outline, an illithid really isn't much like Great Cthulhu.
How long have Mindflayers been copywritten? They've shown up in several Final Fantasy games, most notable Final Fantasy and Final Fantasy IV. (You could even summon one in FFIV.)
Again, unless you are publishing it or something similar, you can use an illithid. WotC lawyers are NOT going to bust down the door on your personal game and confiscate your dice. If the adventure says to use a mind flayer, then I see no real reason NOT to use one, whether I'm using Pathfinder, 3.5, 1E, or Swords & Wizardry. Golarion may not (canonically) have mind flayers, but Greyhawk most certainly does, and that is where that AP is located.I recently ran into this hiccup while converting a campaign path
** spoiler omitted **
Instead I used the Neh-Thalggu from Bestiary 2, and trust me, they more than make up for the brain eating scary space aberrations.
You can also use the new psionics book put out by Dreamscarred Press Psionics Unleashed, that has their alternative to the Illithid :) It has a creepy thing that looks like the mind flayer but instead its fingers lay eggs in your flesh and the larva burrow into your body...
Couldn't resist.Again, unless you are publishing it or something similar, you can use an illithid. WotC lawyers are NOT going to bust down the door on your personal game and confiscate your dice. If the adventure says to use a mind flayer, then I see no real reason NOT to use one, whether I'm using Pathfinder, 3.5, 1E, or Swords & Wizardry. Golarion may not (canonically) have mind flayers, but Greyhawk most certainly does, and that is where that AP is located.I recently ran into this hiccup while converting a campaign path
** spoiler omitted **
Instead I used the Neh-Thalggu from Bestiary 2, and trust me, they more than make up for the brain eating scary space aberrations.
I'd forgotten that one.
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You can do whatever you want for your home game. However, Paizo can not publish materials containing these creatures because they are not designated as Open Content in the OGL.
It goes a bit father than this, actually. Its not just copyright law, its the OGL and the "product identity" designation. Wizards has designated Mind Flayers as product identity, so there is an additional level beyond simple copyright issues that complicate the use of mind flayers in OGL products. There are a few other monsters you wont find. Displacer beasts, beholders, carrion crawlers, umber hulks, for instance. And a few others.
Ok then.. to hell WotC!
I'll just convert my own version of squid-face Joe and bee-holder!Thanx all.
Of course you can. Because when you play your game at home YOU aren't using the OGL, you are just playing the game. So you can use any content you want.
Of course you can. Because when you play your game at home YOU aren't using the OGL, you are just playing the game. So you can use any content you want.Ok then.. to hell WotC!
I'll just convert my own version of squid-face Joe and bee-holder!Thanx all.
Is it sad that I had no intention of reading the new entries in this thread since it had already all been said, but saw Clark had posted so I was interested to see what he said? :p
I recently ran into this hiccup while converting a campaign path
** spoiler omitted **
Instead I used the Neh-Thalggu from Bestiary 2, and trust me, they more than make up for the brain eating scary space aberrations.
They dont have the insta-kill affect. Of course since Paizo tried to move away from such things I understand why. Maybe I will create an advanced version has a grapple/pin/extract routine.
How long have Mindflayers been copywritten? They've shown up in several Final Fantasy games, most notable Final Fantasy and Final Fantasy IV. (You could even summon one in FFIV.)
Japan is somewhat notorious for being lax on foreign copyrights (at least it has in the past, I don't know if that is still the case), as seen with the whole Arsene Lupin/Lupin III copyright battle. In the original release of Final Fantasy, there were many D&D monsters in it, including beholders, carrion crawlers, otyughs, and, of course, mindflayers. In the versions released outside of Japan, these creatures were renamed (and in the Beholder/Evil Eye's case, given a new sprite). More recent releases (and re-releases) have used the name mindflayer, though, and I don't know why they're allowed to.
In the original release of Final Fantasy, there were many D&D monsters in it, including beholders, carrion crawlers, otyughs, and, of course, mindflayers. In the versions released outside of Japan, these creatures were renamed (and in the Beholder/Evil Eye's case, given a new sprite).
Whaaaaaaaaaaaat!? I had no idea about anything beyond the Mindflayer. That's amazing.
On a similar topic, there's a collectible dice game that came out back in the mid-90's (it won game of the year at Origins in 95, if I'm not mistaken) called Dragon Dice. It was created by TSR, but it was abandoned by WotC when they bought them out (and was later picked up by a new company called SFR, which was made up entirely of fans of the game that wanted to keep it going). What's my point? Well, the dice in this game all represent fantasy creatures including Beholders, Umber Hulks, and Carrior Crawlers. (No mind flayers, I'm afraid.) They're even named such. I'm not sure how it interacts with copyright law, but the game has been in production for years despite the use of these copywritten creature names.
How long have Mindflayers been copywritten? They've shown up in several Final Fantasy games, most notable Final Fantasy and Final Fantasy IV. (You could even summon one in FFIV.)Japan is somewhat notorious for being lax on foreign copyrights.
Japan is very lax on domestic copyrights as well. The short summary is "there is none". From what I know, Japanese aerists can not forbid others from making money with their work or characters. Everything is pretty much free game.
Today, you have the situation that the USA and Europe are huge customers of japanese entertainment and while you would have barly any chance to prevent the distribution of ripoff material in Japan, you can quite easily ban the import and sale of such material in America or Europe. If SquareEnix would use Mind Flayers in their current Final Fantasy games, WotC would probably have no problem at all in banning the game from being sold in the US, which would be a massive loss.The same thing was also possible back in the 80s, but I assume TSR had better things to do than starting legal battles with a japanese videogame company.
Being allowed to do something and not getting sued are two very different things.
I assume the dice game company had a special agreement with WotC that allowed them to do that. The OGL was simply a free licence open to everyone who was interested. When WotC wanted to make individual contracts that grant the other party additional rights under certain conditions, they are always free to do so.
The Japanese finally have their revenge for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as Storm Shadow once said: "Revenge is a dish best served cold" I could go tit of tat on this all day but end result is the same, illithids are verboten outside of whatever crap WotC wants to try to pas off as D&D. Between that and them yanking Dragon and Dungeon magazines from Paizo I will not buy another product from them as long as I live and I encourage others to do the same.
I was playing around with a monster with the same role and general look of a mind flayer I was calling the Krakatoa. They were not psionic but a priestly society based on the worship of Cthulhu himself. In their scripture, the race was created whole cloth by their master as he slept. They are his waking dream self divided and multiplied to do his will throughout the cosmos. They sustain themselves by eating the souls of others either by devouring the brain or heart of another living creature.
I think Pazio, since they love Lovecraft material and have been placing it in, that perhaps they should just create a Star Spawn and Star Spawn Hybrid. Instead of psionic blasts it would have madness like powers. After all, mindflayers are just rip offs of Cthulhu.Star Spawn were in part 4 of Carrion Crown. And let's give Gygax/Arneson a bit of credit, other than the general outline, an illithid really isn't much like Great Cthulhu.
In all respects to Gygax, God rest his soul, and Arneson the Mind Flayers were a rip off from the Cthulhu mythos, at least aesthetically. At the very least they are Cthulhu inspired, but that is a form of stealing no matter how you try to justify it, but that is perfectly fine because everything steals to some degree. The powers of the Mind Flayers were of course original, but the original entry by Gygax (MM) was not in depth and at most was just for a bit of flavor. It wasn't until later on, that Mind Flayers got more loving and took on a life of their own and that was due to the collaborations of different authors.
I do want to take the time and thank you for pointing me in the direction of that Carrion Crown module as the bestiary is a great addition to an adventure I want to run and for the fact that I am a bit of a Lovecraft nut. I actually do quite a bit of Lovecraftian artwork: My Lovecraft Artwork. I am wondering though, if you or anyone else know if there are anymore modules that have more bestiary entries that relate to the Cthulhu mythos?
In all respects to Gygax, God rest his soul, and Arneson the Mind Flayers were a rip off from the Cthulhu mythos, at least aesthetically. At the very least they are Cthulhu inspired, but that is a form of stealing no matter how you try to justify it, but that is perfectly fine because everything steals to some degree.
It is murky thing in case of Lovercraftian mythos as its creator was known for his willingness to share ideas with other creators - both borrowed from others and lended ideas to others, even encouraged it. And so were some of his colleagues and co-authors.
I assume the dice game company had a special agreement with WotC that allowed them to do that. The OGL was simply a free licence open to everyone who was interested. When WotC wanted to make individual contracts that grant the other party additional rights under certain conditions, they are always free to do so.
I am not lawyer so I might be wrong on this, but if the images and names were part of the game and the company in question bought the rights to the Dragon Dice then WotC shouldn't be able to prevent them from doing so - they obtained the right to use beholders and others as part of the Dragon Dice game. If they tried to use them outside of the Dragon Dice, then it would depended on exact wording of the contract they made with the TSR and on the quality of lawyers they could hire.
It is murky thing in case of Lovercraftian mythos as its creator was known for his willingness to share ideas with other creators - both borrowed from others and lended ideas to others, even encouraged it. And so were some of his colleagues and co-authors.
Good point, but even the part about Lovecraft's story of wanting the mythos to be shared and expanded by others is almost legend by now. It may or may not be true and is merely speculation, although I want to believe it to be true myself. It all has to do with Lovecraft's last will and testament which seemingly and conveniently disappeared. From the actual correspondence between him and his friends, which I have read, it is mentioned that Lovecraft had indeed written a will and was taking it to be certified, but he fell asleep on the train and discovered it missing after he had departed from the train. This is somewhat believable as I have done similar things on the bus, although not something so important as a last will and testament.
Wizards has designated Mind Flayers as product identity... There are a few other monsters you wont find. Displacer beasts, beholders, carrion crawlers, umber hulks, for instance. And a few others.{sigh}
Owlbears are specifically made open content in the 3.5 SRD.
Several monsters aren't, however. Beholders, Mind Flayers, Githyanki/zerai, Displacer Beasts, Umber Hulks, Carrion Crawlers (who would have thought), Kuo Toa are all closed content and property of WotC.
{sigh +1} Slaadi are completely forgotten again. {weeps quietly}
Good point, but even the part about Lovecraft's story of wanting the mythos to be shared and expanded by others is almost legend by now. It may or may not be true and is merely speculation, although I want to believe it to be true myself.
It is murky thing in case of Lovercraftian mythos as its creator was known for his willingness to share ideas with other creators - both borrowed from others and lended ideas to others, even encouraged it. And so were some of his colleagues and co-authors.
It is commonly repeated story which seems to be believable because of the following facts:
- Lovercraft did a lot of correspondence with multiple authors- both he and his correspondents used the same names and elements regularly
- they did not break their correpondence afterwards which suggest that they were not offended by this sharing of ideas
It all has to do with Lovecraft's last will and testament which seemingly and conveniently disappeared. From the actual correspondence between him and his friends, which I have read, it is mentioned that Lovecraft had indeed written a will and was taking it to be certified, but he fell asleep on the train and discovered it missing after he had departed from the train. This is somewhat believable as I have done similar things on the bus, although not something so important as a last will and testament.
Which is a great shame. On the other hand, does not, according to the both international and US law all the creations of Lovercraft became public domain, as it is more than 70 years since its death? (I mean actual Lovercraft creations not thing that he borrowed from those who died four or more years after him).