Hi all.
I've been fiddling around with a spontaneous casting Magus for an upcoming campaign I've been working on. I must admit that the credit for the idea is someone else's, which I found on this forum and blatantly stole for my own purposes. So props to the guys who first brought it up :)
Sorcerous Magus:
*insert flavor text here*
Sorcerous Caster: At first level, the Sorcerous Magus gains the spells known feature of the Bard class, he still chooses spells from the standard Magus Spell list. He also gain a Sorcerer bloodline of his choice as well as all of the associated bonus spells and powers of that bloodline. This feature does not allow him to learn, or cast spells above 6th level. This replaces the Spellbook, Spell Recall, Improved Spell Recall and Greater Spell Access abilities.
Would this be too much? Or maybe too little?
Thanks
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Hi all.
I've been fiddling around with a spontaneous casting Magus for an upcoming campaign I've been working on. I must admit that the credit for the idea is someone else's, which I found on this forum and blatantly stole for my own purposes. So props to the guys who first brought it up :)
Sorcerous Magus:
*insert flavor text here*Sorcerous Caster: At first level, the Sorcerous Magus gains the spells known feature of the Bard class, he still chooses spells from the standard Magus Spell list. He also gain a Sorcerer bloodline of his choice as well as all of the associated bonus spells and powers of that bloodline. This feature does not allow him to learn, or cast spells above 6th level. This replaces the Spellbook, Spell Recall, Improved Spell Recall and Greater Spell Access abilities.
Would this be too much? Or maybe too little?
Thanks
Have you checked out the Vanguard from Super Genius Games?
It's a very magus-like class that casts spontaneously.
Check it out >>> The Genius Guide to the Vanguard
Have you checked out the Vanguard from Super Genius Games?It's a very magus-like class that casts spontaneously.
Check it out >>> The Genius Guide to the Vanguard
I bought the Vanguard PDF a while back and for some reason, it just doesn't taste right to me. It's a solid class and all, but it is a little lacking in the type of flavor I'm going for. But thanks.
I love the idea of the Magus being your basic Wizard who, early in his career, decided to pick up a sword and beat his enemies up as well. So the Sorcerous Magus is attempt to make the same go for a your basic sorcerer. Hence the "need" for a bloodline ;)
Thanks for the feedback though :)
Super Genius Games also has Ultimate Options: New Magus Arcana. In addition to new Arcana options, it has 4 archetypes, including the Cabalist.
The Cabalist casts spontaneously and does get bloodline powers and bloodline spells, but not at the same levels a sorcerer would get them.
It's pretty good.
Super Genius Games also has Ultimate Options: New Magus Arcana. In addition to new Arcana options, it has 4 archetypes, including the Cabalist.
The Cabalist casts spontaneously and does get bloodline powers and bloodline spells, but not at the same levels a sorcerer would get them.
It's pretty good.
Interesting. I shall check it out asap. Thanks :)
The Magus has Bard spell progression already. a sorcerer variant should have slower progression the same way a sorcerer has vs a wizard for proper balance. But you'll probably find it less desirable to play.Hi all.
I've been fiddling around with a spontaneous casting Magus for an upcoming campaign I've been working on. I must admit that the credit for the idea is someone else's, which I found on this forum and blatantly stole for my own purposes. So props to the guys who first brought it up :)
Sorcerous Magus:
*insert flavor text here*Sorcerous Caster: At first level, the Sorcerous Magus gains the spells known feature of the Bard class, he still chooses spells from the standard Magus Spell list. He also gain a Sorcerer bloodline of his choice as well as all of the associated bonus spells and powers of that bloodline. This feature does not allow him to learn, or cast spells above 6th level. This replaces the Spellbook, Spell Recall, Improved Spell Recall and Greater Spell Access abilities.
Would this be too much? Or maybe too little?
Thanks
"For proper balance" ? All 6th-level casters have a bard progression, both spontaneous and prepared (summoner, inquisitor, alchemist, magus). I don't think it's unbalanced to give the magus the bard's progression of spells known and call it done. Especially not when they're losing spell recall and improved spell recall, which are two of the best abilities in the game. (Improved spell recall turns Extra Arcane Pool [a feat, so worth ~5000 gp] into a 4th-level pearl of power [16,000 gp].)
Considering my recent-found love of magi and my penchant to use a small selection of spells, I do find this archetype marvelous!
Though, the fact that they're casting spontaneously, rather than prepared, I personally don't think the Knowledge Pool skill makes sense for them.
Given that, I wonder how balanced turning that into an extra Arcana for this archetype would be.
I'd love to play this! The concept may be interesting.
However, some of the magus abilities either don't fit or would be broken on a spontaneous caster. Recall would have no function, Knowledge Pool would be terribly broken, and I really don't think the medium and heavy armor casting would fit.
Things he would have instead would be bloodlines similar to those of a sorcerer (but with the attacks deliverable as either ranged or melee touch attacks), and at some level he would gain the ability to use his bloodline power every time he used his spellstrike equivalent. He would also gain the ability to cast certain spells as immediate actions (at levels 6, 12 and 18, choose one spell with a casting time of standard action and target of you or touched ally, can't change the spell chosen later).
I imagine him as a less methodical version of the magus, with a larger emphasis on damage and power.
However, some of the magus abilities either don't fit or would be broken on a spontaneous caster.
Recall would have no function, Knowledge Pool would be terribly broken, and I really don't think the medium and heavy armor casting would fit.
Ahem...
...This replaces the Spellbook, Spell Recall, Improved Spell Recall and Greater Spell Access abilities.
Certainly something needs to be given up in exchange for the Bloodline stuff, but I don't see on what basis medium and heavy armor don't fit? How are Wizardy-casters more amenable to those than Sorceror-y casters? Hell, 3.5 already had the Battle Sorceror which could cast in Light Armor (=Mithril Medium), a 3/4 Caster Class should have better capability in that area given they are giving up Full Casting. Any Magus who wants to build around DEX probably isn't going to be using Heavy Armor anyways... But DELAYING the Armor progression by 2 levels or so seems reasonable to me.
Realistically, Spell Recall/Imp Spell Recall - if appropriately modified to simply be additional castings of already cast spells (or known spells vs. spellbook for ISR) rather than granting fresh 'prepared' spell slots - are just not that powerful, especially for a Sorceror who can already re-cast a spell as many times as they have spell slots, retaining this ability is just letting them trade Arcana Pool Points for extra spellcasting. So taking it away just means they will use Arcana for other things, not really that much of a penalty IMHO. ISR is much less useful if limited to spells known vs. the entire spellbook. I honestly don't think Knowledge Pool would be 'broken' to retain on it's own, but Spell Recall/Imp Spell Recall probably is the more appropriate one to keep (modified), and thus Knowledge Pool would need to go. The Arcana progression could be delayed, to take 1 more level for each Arcana, and possibly apply a penalty to the Arcane Pool Points (-2 to effective level?).
I probably wouldn't give up Greater Spell Access, but I would change it just 1 additional spell known of each spell level, removing it completely just changes the high-end dynamic too much vs. normal Magus. Sorcerous Magii would also get BL Spells, but some of those will already be on the Magus list, are are generally much less 'optimized' than just choosing 14 spells at 19th level. I would unify the Magus Bonus Feat with the Bloodline Feat, i.e. you can choose from the combined list of Feats but you get the same amount of Feats total, not Bloodline + Magus Feats (probably use the Sorceror progression, which is the same but 2 levels later).
I would lose True Magus in lieu of the Sorceror Bloodline Capstone. Fighter Training and Counterstrike could also be dropped, or MAYBE retain Fighter Training but reduce it to 1/3 class level equivalency? (if Fighter Training is dropped completely, then Combat Feats should be dropped from the Bonus Feat list) I would say to also allow Bloodline Abilities to be used via Spellstrike (and Close Range Arcana), but not Spell Combat. Since Spell Combat/Spellstrike/Arcana Pool and the Arcana and BL Powers are all bunched up at low levels, I would say to delay either Sorceror BL Powers by 2 levels (lowering effective Sorc level) or the same for Arcana Pool, perhaps delay one by 1 level without other modifications but delay (and penalize) the other one by 2 levels?
I imagine him as a less methodical version of the magus, with a larger emphasis on damage and power.
An emphasis on damage on power doesn't really match many of the Bloodlines, e.g. Fey. To work with all the bloodlines, the concept needs to be broader than just 'damage and power' (which the Magus already can do just fine).
I'm trying to follow everything you're laying down, Quandary, but I'm having trouble. Could I bother you to format that in a way reflecting the usual archetype entries?
Um... How's this?
Class Skills: Modified to add Appraise and Bluff to the list (normal Sorc Class Skills).
Eschew Materials: You gain this as Bonus Feat at 1st level.
Spells: Modified to use Spontaneous Casting with CHA as Casting Stat, otherwise using Magus spell list and progression, with base Spells Known based off Bard progression.
Magus levels also count as Sorceror levels for purposes of Archetypes. Replaces Spellbook.
(Cross-Blooded wouldn't work because Spells is already modified by this Archetype, everything else should)
Arcane Pool: modified to use CHA.
Sorceror Bloodline: As Sorceror Class Ability with effective Sorc Level = Magus Level -2 until 16th level where you use full Magus Level (you don't gain 1st level BL Power until 3rd level). Spells Known gained from Bloodline are added to your Magus spell list at the spell level a Sorceror would gain them, although Bonus Spells are only added when you have the appropriate spell level to cast them. Replaces Knowledge Pool, Magus Bonus Feats, Counter Strike, and True Magus.
Bloodline Skill: You get 1 free skill rank/class level in the Bloodline Class Skill, this doesn't allow more ranks than normal
(THIS IS MY HOUSERULE FOR SORCERORS ANYWAYS, IGNORE IF YOU WANT TO).
Spellstrike: Modified to also apply to Touch BL Powers if you spend 1 Arcane Pool Point (and Close Range Arcana is similarly modified)
Spell Combat: Modified to work with BL Powers with beneficial effect on target/yourself.
Arcana: delay progression by 1 per Arcana, so 1 level delay for first and all subsequent ones are gained every 4 levels instead of 3, yielding 4 instead of 6 Arcana by 20th level.
Spell Recall/Imp Spell Recall: Modified to grant extra castings of already cast spells / known spells (ISR) to more clearly work with spontaneous casting.
Medium/Heavy Armor (Magus Casting): -2 level delay
Greater Spell Access: Modified to grant 1 spell known of each spell level.
Sorceror Bloodline: Bonus Spells are gained treating effective Sorc Level = Magus level, but they are not added unless you have sufficient spell levels to cast them. (this means the earlier spell levels aren't subject to the -2 level penalty, although slower Magus casting progression eventually kicks in to result in later acquisition vs. full Sorceror, along with never gaining 7th Level+ spells)
Magus Arcana: Should also be modified to use CHA instead of INT where relevant, and I would also apply a -2 effective Magus level modifier for these (for any effects, but also pre-reqs to choose each Arcana, whether for free or via Extra Arcana Feat).
Arcane Pool: Should also be modified by -2 pool points (min 1).
As I suggested in my previous post, part of the balance here is that Spell Recall and especially Improved Spell Recall are simply less valuable for Spontaneous Casting than for Spellbook Prepared Casting. Also note the Arcane Pool Point cost to using Spellstrike with BL Powers (which means you are using both Pool Point resources and BL usages/day resources). Spell Combat can't be used to combine offensive BL powers with full attack, although you can do so for self/ally-buff Powers (without Arcane Pool Point cost).
No, you shouldn't just take sorcerer bloodlines and say "magus level -x" or whatever. These bloodlines would have the same thematic naming convention, but NOT the same effects.
And the "damage and power" focus came from the nature of the spontaneous caster. Sorcerer is like a wizard, but with less finesse, and more focus on raw damage and power, because that's the one thing he can actually do better than a wizard.
I'm sure you could build totally new Class Abilities thematically related yet not identical to Sorceror BL Abilities,
but I am not going to do that work, and that really seems outside the scope of any Archetype I've seen.
This approach has the benefit of also being customizable via standard Sorceror Archetypes,
as well as automatically working with ALL Sorceror Bloodlines no matter the source (not just re-interpreting Core Bloodlines)
Crucially, this is also the approach that the OP chose and described in the first post, which he asked for feedback on the balance of,
and as such is the basis for my posts... Something not based on that is just diverging from the stated purpose of this thread.
Bloodlines like Abyssal, Arcane, Celestial, Destined, Fey, Infernal, and Undead... i.e. MOST Bloodlines (comparing Core, the same is true broadly AFAIK) do not seem to be about damage to me, and do not seem to have any advantage vs. Wizards in the damage department. There is no difference is spell slots here, which isn't really that large of a difference for Wizards/Sorcs for most of their careers. /shrug
I decided that gaining both BL Powers and Arcana is over-kill. I considered simply 'buying' BL Powers with Arcana (possibly enforced choice), but that messes with any compatability with Sorceror Archetypes (since the exact same class ability structure is needed to interface with those). Instead, I decided to just drop all free Arcana selections except at 12th and 18th level (which is the same as if you were forced to spend all Arcana on BL Powers), while continuing to grant the Arcana ability per se (to enable buying the Extra Arcana Feat) albeit at a later level, 6th instead of 3rd level, and a -2 level penalty is still appplied to effects/pre-reqs for Magus Arcana (including via Extra Arcana). In the broader balance picture of this modification, even though Fighter Training is being retained (enabling qualifying for Fighter Bonus Feats), there is heavy Feat pressure to take Arcana, utilizing Fighter Training at all will be in lieu of Arcana.
2nd try:
Class Skills: Modified to add Appraise and Bluff to the list (normal Sorc Class Skills).
Eschew Materials: You gain this as Bonus Feat at 1st level.
Spells: Modified to use Spontaneous Casting with CHA as Casting Stat, otherwise using Magus spell list and progression, with base Spells Known based off Bard progression.
Magus levels also count as Sorceror levels for purposes of Archetypes. Replaces Spellbook.
(Cross-Blooded wouldn't work because Spells is already modified by this Archetype, everything else should)
Arcane Pool: modified to use CHA, -2 pool points (min 1).
Sorceror Bloodline: As Sorceror Class Ability with effective Sorc Level = Magus Level -2 until 16th level where you use full Magus Level (you don't gain 1st level BL Power until 3rd level). Spells Known gained from Bloodline are added to your Magus spell list at the spell level a Sorceror would gain them, Bonus Spells are gained treating effective Sorc Level = Magus level, but they are not added unless you have sufficient spell levels to cast them. Replaces Knowledge Pool, Magus Bonus Feats, Counter Strike, and True Magus.
Bloodline Skill: You get 1 free skill rank/class level in the Bloodline Class Skill, this doesn't allow more ranks per skill than normal
(THIS IS MY HOUSERULE FOR SORCERORS ANYWAYS, IGNORE IF YOU WANT TO).
Spellstrike: Modified to also apply to Touch BL Powers if you spend 1 Arcane Pool Point (and Close Range Arcana is similarly modified)
Spell Combat: Modified to work with BL Powers with beneficial effect on target/yourself.
Arcana: modified to use CHA instead of INT where relevant, and apply a -2 effective Magus level modifier for any effects or pre-reqs. The ability is gained at 6th level (enabling Extra Arcana Feat, where the level penalty still applies), but you only select Arcana (for free) at 12th and 18th level.
Spell Recall/Imp Spell Recall: Modified to grant extra castings of already cast spells / known spells (ISR) to more clearly work with spontaneous casting.
Medium/Heavy Armor (Magus Casting): -2 level delay
Greater Spell Access: Modified to grant 1 spell known of each spell level.
That is a much bigger and much more invasive archetype than I expected. o.o
I guess, hmm. I guess I was expecting something much smaller.
Don't get me wrong, this is wonderfully well-made archetype! Just, less "magus wants to be a spontcaster" and more "Sorceror wants spellstrike."
If the Magus wasn't being granted the bloodline, and just wanted spontaneous casting, how would we balance that into an archetype?
The Magus has Bard spell progression already. a sorcerer variant should have slower progression the same way a sorcerer has vs a wizard for proper balance. But you'll probably find it less desirable to play.
I've bumped Sorcerer and Oracle back to the same progression as Wizard and Cleric and noticed absolutely zero balance issues. If nothing else, it's made the classes far more enjoyable and competitive with their Vancian counterparts. They're still just as limited and less versatile, but they don't have the feeling of hobbling along in the prepared casters' footsteps with one leg caught in a bear trap.
For what it's worth, anyway. And as someone already said, the Magus and Alchemist already have the same progression as their spontaneous counterparts in the Bard and Inquisitor.
[/off-topic]
Easiest is to do this to the kensei alternate type. You just change anything based on Int to Cha and use bard as stated above. I have one in use in a pathfimderized ptulos game. He does great. And being a spontaneous caster DD prestige class is available to him now. Which fits that character and gives some bloodline stuff.
... Right.
So, is it a law that all spontcasters have to use charisma and have to have diminished spellcasting? It's a common theme I'm seeing whenever "spont magus" comes up and it's rather... I don't know.
I guess I just can't imagine spontaneous casting being such an immensely game-changing archetype. I mean, I KNOW archetypes don't have to be overhauls, Arcana Lord replaces all of two things, and...
Maybe this just needs to be a discussion about how it would or would no unbalance Magus would be if we just gave him spont casting without changing anything except modifying what already exists on the class to function with spells known rather than prepared spells.
Besides the Rogue Genius Vanguard and Cabalist, there are also the spontaneous magus archetypes in the "Of Magic and Mettle" articles of Wayfinder #7 (free) and Wayfinder #10 (also free): the extempresario and spiderhawk, respectively. Even if they're not exactly what you're looking for, they might give you some ideas for your own versions.
I have invented two of these! They can be plucked from this googledoc.
You're looking for the Hexblade, which is designed to evoke the 3.5 class of the same name and has Hexcrafter features, but mostly stays close to the vanilla Magus class.
Also the Ascetic, which is a wisdom-based supernatural martial artist.