Illusionist of Sivanah and healing with Shadow Conjuration


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

The Exchange

Hi, i posted this on the rules forum and didn't get the answer I was looking for/ If this question has been answered please point me to the post.

In the Gods and Magic resource it mentions that the lesser Goddess Sivanah is known for granting her Illusionists the ability to use Shadow conjuration spells to produce a healing spell. It also gives an example of using Shadow Conjuration as the component to making a mask of the Living God Razmir, to mimic a healing effect.

Other posts I have read take this as common knowledge or at least acknowledge the existence of this possibility. So, in this I have a question. I made my first PFS organized character. He is an Illusionist, and a follower of Sivanah. If this is a valid possibility, how does it work? Can the Illusionist cast cure light wounds on himself? He is aware it is an Illusion so therefore would in theory already fail his save. Would he be healed, and if so, for how much? His compatriots, knowing his forte for magic, would they need to fail a will save in order for this to work? I understand the flavor this idea adds to a strange "priest" of a goddess of shadow, but it has opened a little can of worms for me if I wish to expand on my PC in this manner and take advantage of it.

So, it says it in one of the official resources. It's used twice in said book to give it precedent. Various board post have acknowledged it as a fact of sorts. Is it a legit optional rule for Illusionists of this deity? Is it divine or arcane magic. What are the rules for saves and resists and basic function of Shadow Conjuration used in this matter?

thank you for your time
the Tattooed Geek
Kevin Lytle

The Exchange

Tattoogeek wrote:

Hi, i posted this on the rules forum and didn't get the answer I was looking for/ If this question has been answered please point me to the post.

In the Gods and Magic resource it mentions that the lesser Goddess Sivanah is known for granting her Illusionists the ability to use Shadow conjuration spells to produce a healing spell. It also gives an example of using Shadow Conjuration as the component to making a mask of the Living God Razmir, to mimic a healing effect.

Other posts I have read take this as common knowledge or at least acknowledge the existence of this possibility. So, in this I have a question. I made my first PFS organized character. He is an Illusionist, and a follower of Sivanah. If this is a valid possibility, how does it work? Can the Illusionist cast cure light wounds on himself? He is aware it is an Illusion so therefore would in theory already fail his save. Would he be healed, and if so, for how much? His compatriots, knowing his forte for magic, would they need to fail a will save in order for this to work? I understand the flavor this idea adds to a strange "priest" of a goddess of shadow, but it has opened a little can of worms for me if I wish to expand on my PC in this manner and take advantage of it.

So, it says it in one of the official resources. It's used twice in said book to give it precedent. Various board post have acknowledged it as a fact of sorts. Is it a legit optional rule for Illusionists of this deity? Is it divine or arcane magic. What are the rules for saves and resists and basic function of Shadow Conjuration used in this matter?

thank you for your time
the Tattooed Geek
Kevin Lytle

I wanted to add this as an example of what i was talking about I it from the Pathfinder wiki page and references pg.47 of Gods and Magic.

The worship of Sivanah is popular in the countries of Nex, Irrisen, and in the cities of Katapesh, while it is strictly prohibited in Nidal, due to a ban by the country's clerics of Zon-Kuthon. She is also widely worshiped among the illusionists and gnomes of Golarion, who appreciate her devotion to their favorite school of magic.[2][3] Devout illusionists who follow her have been known to be able to mimic divine healing magics by use of their shadow conjuration spells


I don't have the answer to the question, I actually have exactly the same questions as Tattoogeek, so bumping this thread (and the other one mentioned) up and hoping for an answer :)


So, the main issue I have with this as a GM is that Shadow Conjuration explicitly says spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list of 3rd or Lower level. The reason this wording is frustrating in this particular spell is that there is very little wiggle room. Several classes have ways of adding spells to your character's list of spells known but by RAW, Shadow Conjuration cannot duplicate those spells. It can only duplicate spells that have been added TO THE LIST of spells the class can choose.

So, as a Cleric w/ the Darkness Domain (level 7) you can cast Shadow Conjuration 1/day if you prepare it as your domain spell. However, even if you worshiped Sivanah you could not use Shadow Conjuration to duplicate a cure spell. The reason is that the Shadow Conjuration spell only cares about the Sorcerer/Wizard list, and so it allows the cleric to pull spells from that list instead of their own. This makes Shadow Conjuration incredibly valuable for a cleric trying to duplicate Wizard magic. However, the reverse isn't usually true.

In order for a Sorcerer, Wizard, Bard, or Arcanist to be able to duplicate cure light wounds they need to cheat that spell onto the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list some how. It doesn't matter that the bard can cast Cure Light Wounds on their own, they cannot mimic it with Shadow Conjuration because it is not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. There are not many ways to cheat a spell onto the Sorcerer/Wizard list and not simply add the spell to your list of spells known. Not Bloodlines, Witch Patrons, the Faith Magic Discovery, and not even the Razmiran Priest archetype add spells to the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

Veiled Illusionist doesn't even do it, but its effect is the closest as it allows us to add spells to our class's spell list. Unfortunately, the spells we can add are limited to Illusion spells from the Wizard/Sorcerer archetype. So not even the god's token prestige class can do what the fluff says it can do. Though it makes the Cleric work great (Cleric 5/Veiled Illusionist 2 gets us Shadow Conjuration in as many spell slots as we want instead of 1/day). Anyway, What I'm saying is, by RAW you need to find a method of cheating Cure Light Wounds or other [Healing] subschool spells onto the Wizard Spell List. I don't know of any methods but maybe some folks here do.


I know of three methods by which a wizard could cast cure light wounds (or any other cure spell of their choice).

The first method is the arcane discovery faith magic. There are multiple problems with it though. The first problem is that it doesn't actually add it to your list of spells. Instead you gain it as a bonus spell you can prepare and cast each day. Not only that, but it specifically gets cast as a divine spell. So, its pretty clear that in no shape has it been added to the wizard list nor is it treated as a wizard spell.

Another problem with it is that you can't just pick any spell you like. But instead it must be a domain spell of a domain that the god you worship grants. Sivanah grants the following domains: Knowledge, Madness, Magic, Rune, and Trickery. None of those domains grant a cure spell of any sort. So, the cure spells aren't even valid options for a wizard that worships Sivanah.

The second method is the feat Secret of Magical Discipline It requires that you have levels in the lore master prestige class. But, it lets you cast any spell as if they had it prepared. However, much like the method above the problem is that it doesn't add it your class list for any other purpose. So, a wizard could cast cure light wounds as an arcane spell, expending a 1st level spell slot. But it wouldn't allow that same wizard to use shadow conjuration to cast cure light wounds.

The third method is the prestige class pathfinder savant. One of the main features of this prestige class is that it lets you pilfer spells from other classes. It very specifically adds it to the class list of the base class you have the most levels in. So, if a wizard takes the prestige class they can add cure light wounds as a 2nd level arcane wizard spell. Now, when the arcane savant casts shadow conjuration they can duplicate cure light wounds with it as per the class ability esoteric magic.

Esoteric Magic (Ex) wrote:
At each class level beyond 1st, the Pathfinder savant chooses a spell from any class’s spell list and thereafter treats that spell as if it were on the spell list of the base spellcasting class for which he has the most levels; if this base spellcasting class could not normally cast that spell, it is treated as 1 level higher than it is on the original class’s spell list. If he could cast the spell using his base spellcasting class, the spell’s level does not increase. The spell is cast as if its type (arcane, divine, or psychic) were that of his base spellcasting class, and save DCs function as normal for spells of that class. All other restrictions of his normal spellcasting class apply. This ability does not grant other spellcasters special allowance to prepare, cast, or use spell-trigger or spell-completion items of esoteric spells (such as a sorcerer using a cure light wounds scroll prepared by the Pathfinder savant).

The third method most closely resembles what is described except the prestige class has nothing to do with Sivanah. Any wizard that takes at least 2 levels in the class can do it regardless of their religious beliefs or devotion.


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As mentioned, this doesn't work by RAW. First because because shadow conjuration says " Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower", and the cure spells are not on the sorcerer/wizard list. But, even if you get a cure spell onto your personal sorcerer/wizard list, the healing spells are conjuration(healing), not (summoning) or (creation).

However, it does work at the highest levels, without fiddling around. Shades (Wiz/Sor 9) says : "This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it mimics conjuration spells of 8th level or lower.", note the loss of the qualifiers about spell list and subschool...


Thanks for all of the insight folks!

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