Widen Spell and Cone Shaped Bursts


Rules Questions


7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

I'm sure this question has come up before but I haven't been able to find a solid answer.

Would a cone shaped burst spell, like cone of cold, become a 120 ft. cone when you apply Widen Spell to it? It seems like the increase to 120 ft. would add more than double the spell's area, as described in the feat description. And as far as I can tell, since the spell is a burst, it would be affected by the feat.


Yes, it becomes a 120 ft cone. And yes, that's more than double the area. However, a widened Fireball also has more than double the area.

Note that the feat doesn't say the area is increased by 100%. Instead, it says

Widen Spell wrote:
Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%

The numeric measurement is the range for a cone and the radius for a burst. And that number (range or radius) is increased by 100%, resulting in a total area that's bigger than twice the original.


Widen Spell doubles any numeric measurements of a spells area. Cone of Cold has an area of a cone-shaped burst, but there are no numeric measurements in the area.Cone of Cold it limited by a fixed range that the spell can't exceed.

Sean Reynolds posted about Widen and Line spells in the FAQ. His response applies here as well.
Link


I'm not quite sure how the FAQ about Line Spells affects a cone spell...

The cone's area is defined by its range (or "radius", is you will) of 69 ft and the 90° angle. Why wouldn't Widen Spell increase one of those? For me, the 90° is a fixed value for all cone spells, so doubling the range/radius seems only logical. One could argue that instead of a 120 ft cone with 90° angle, a widened CoC becomes a 60 ft cone with a 180° angle. But I see no reason to deny the use of widen with cone spells.

A line on the other hand has a fixed range but no width that could be "widened" whatsoever, just as Sean Reynolds said. So its not affected by Widen Spell.


Blave wrote:

I'm not quite sure how the FAQ about Line Spells affects a cone spell...

The cone's area is defined by its range (or "radius", is you will) of 69 ft and the 90° angle. Why wouldn't Widen Spell increase one of those? For me, the 90° is a fixed value for all cone spells, so doubling the range/radius seems only logical. One could argue that instead of a 120 ft cone with 90° angle, a widened CoC becomes a 60 ft cone with a 180° angle. But I see no reason to deny the use of widen with cone spells.

A line on the other hand has a fixed range but no width that could be "widened" whatsoever, just as Sean Reynolds said. So its not affected by Widen Spell.

Both a line and a cone have a fixed range. Take a look at Cone of Cold

Quote:


Range 60 ft.

Area cone-shaped burst

The fixed range of 60 ft. is what prevents Widen spell from working with cones.

Cones have a specific shape. Widen spell doesn't let you change that shape to a semi circle.


Quote:
Cones have a specific shape. Widen spell doesn't let you change that shape to a semi circle.

I agree here, it was just another example of how the feat COULD be read.

Quantum Steve wrote:


The fixed range of 60 ft. is what prevents Widen spell from working with cones.

Fireball has a fixed Radius, but can be widened. Divine Favor has a fixed duration but can be extended. Almost all spells have a fixed casting time of one standard action but can be quickened.

That's kinda the point of meta-magic: Changing a spell's usually fixed stats.

I think you are arguing, that the 60 ft are the "range" of the spell instead of being called "radius", is that right?
If so: Widen doesn't say it increases the radius. It says it increases "Any numeric measurements of the spell's area". Since we already agreed that the angle is fixed at 90° and widen specifically states that it affects cones (which - unlike lines - is not mentioned or questioned by Sean Reynolds), increasing the range to 120 ft seems logical.

Yes, a line has a "fixed range", too. But a line is not an area, at least non that would change it rules by doubling its width. Let's just assume a line is 1 inch wide. Doubling that to 2 inches would double the area, but it wouldn't change anything within the rules.

I see what your point is, really. I just happen to totally disagree. Based on the fact that SKR didn't mention cones in the FAQ at all - added to my different interpretation.


Blave wrote:


Fireball has a fixed Radius, but can be widened.

Let's look at fireball:

Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Area 20-ft.-radius spread

Notice that unlike Cone of Cold, Fireball has a numeric value in the "Area" description. That value is doubled. The value in the "Range" description is not doubled by Widen Spell. For that you need Enlarge Spell.
To increase duration, Widen Spell will not do, you need Extend Spell.
To reduce casting time you need Quicken Spell, Widen Spell will not suffice.
If you see a pattern here, it's intentional. Widen Spell only affects "Area."
"Range", "Duration", "Effect", "Casting Time", "Target", or other descriptions are not affected by Widen Spell.

Quote:


I think you are arguing, that the 60 ft are the "range" of the spell instead of being called "radius", is that right?
Yeppers
Quote:


If so: Widen doesn't say it increases the radius. It says it increases "Any numeric measurements of the spell's area".

That's right "Area" not "Range"

Quote:


Since we already agreed that the angle is fixed at 90° and widen specifically states that it affects cones (which - unlike lines - is not mentioned or questioned by Sean Reynolds), increasing the range to 120 ft seems logical.

Nope, only Enlarge Spell increases range

Quote:


Yes, a line has a "fixed range", too. But a line is not an area, at least non that would change it rules by doubling its width. Let's just assume a line is 1 inch wide. Doubling that to 2 inches would double the area, but it wouldn't change anything within the rules.

I see what your point is, really. I just happen to totally disagree. Based on the fact that SKR didn't mention cones in the FAQ at all - added to my different interpretation.

SKR said lines don't get bigger because they have a fixed range and Widen spell doesn't affect range.

Cones don't get bigger because they have a fixed range and Widen Spell does not affect range.


I can see the merit in both points of view.

This being said, RAW-wise, the cone spells have no area numerics. They just extend up to their maximum range.

Which would make 'Enlarge Spell' the Meta of choice of getting that dang Lightning Bolt to a 240' line, or your Cone of Cold to a 120' cone. For the good news, Enlarge is a 'cheaper' Meta Feat than Widen. Actually, reading things this way makes the (relatively cheap) Meta Rods of Enlarge rather... powerful.

Yes, this means that, in the case of a cone, doubling the numerical definition of the spell range will actually quadruple the affected area. Which, I admit, is pretty much counter-intuitive.

This, plus the effect that you get a pretty large area out of a +1 Meta Feat (which is, in my opinion, a tad too good to be true) would likely cause me to houserule all these cones to

Range: Zero
Area: xx' cone shaped burst
but this is not RAW.


Midnight_Angel wrote:

I can see the merit in both points of view.

This being said, RAW-wise, the cone spells have no area numerics. They just extend up to their maximum range.

Which would make 'Enlarge Spell' the Meta of choice of getting that dang Lightning Bolt to a 240' line, or your Cone of Cold to a 120' cone. For the good news, Enlarge is a 'cheaper' Meta Feat than Widen. Actually, reading things this way makes the (relatively cheap) Meta Rods of Enlarge rather... powerful.

Yes, this means that, in the case of a cone, doubling the numerical definition of the spell range will actually quadruple the affected area. Which, I admit, is pretty much counter-intuitive.

This, plus the effect that you get a pretty large area out of a +1 Meta Feat (which is, in my opinion, a tad too good to be true) would likely cause me to houserule all these cones to

Range: Zero
Area: xx' cone shaped burst
but this is not RAW.

Enlarge Spell only works on spells with close, medium or long range unfortunately, so it won't work with cone of cold.


dubiousmx wrote:
Enlarge Spell only works on spells with close, medium or long range unfortunately, so it won't work with cone of cold.

I stand corrected.

Note to self: Next time, re-read the description of a feat I have only passing knowledge of in its entirety before joining in the discussion.


Quantum Steve wrote:

SKR said lines don't get bigger because they have a fixed range and Widen spell doesn't affect range.

Cones don't get bigger because they have a fixed range and Widen Spell does not affect range.

SKR said lines do nto get bigger because they have no AREA.

Cones do get bigger becuase they have an area.

Widen DOES turn a 60' cone into a 120' cone SINCE it has an area.

Area of a cone is 1/3 base x H

Area of a Circle is Pi r^2.

So widening a 20'r circle quadruples the area.

Widening a 60' cone Causes the Base and the Height to be doubled and thus quadruples the area. (I realize that the BASE it not mentioned in the description but by making a cone go at a specific angle the base would also be doubled.)

Since a LINE has no AREA it can not techincally be widened.


Ughbash wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:

SKR said lines don't get bigger because they have a fixed range and Widen spell doesn't affect range.

Cones don't get bigger because they have a fixed range and Widen Spell does not affect range.

SKR said lines do nto get bigger because they have no AREA.

Cones do get bigger becuase they have an area.

Widen DOES turn a 60' cone into a 120' cone SINCE it has an area.

Area of a cone is 1/3 base x H

Area of a Circle is Pi r^2.

So widening a 20'r circle quadruples the area.

Widening a 60' cone Causes the Base and the Height to be doubled and thus quadruples the area. (I realize that the BASE it not mentioned in the description but by making a cone go at a specific angle the base would also be doubled.)

Since a LINE has no AREA it can not techincally be widened.

Read the FAQ again.

SKR wrote:

How does the Widen Spell feat affect spells with line effects?

As written, nothing--lines do not have a width dimension, so that can't be doubled by the feat, and most line spells have a fixed range, which the spell can't exceed unless you're using Enlarge Spell. So, for most lines, Widen Spell has no effect unless you couple it with Enlarge Spell. Yes, it's strange, and we may end up revisiting this rule at some point in the future.

Meanwhile, as a house rule (not an official update to the rules), it's fair to allow someone to use the Widen Spell feat on a line spell and actually double its range. You are, after all, increasing the level by +3, and if you're casting lightning bolt as a 6th-level spell, you ought to at least be able to get a 240-foot bolt out of it.

–Sean K Reynolds (10/22/10)

He never says lines don't have an Area, he says: "lines do not have a width dimension, so that can't be doubled by the feat" neither do Cones, so that can't be doubled either.

He also says: "most line spells have a fixed range, which the spell can't exceed unless you're using Enlarge Spell." Most cones also have a fixed range, which the spell can't exceed unless you're using Enlarge Spell.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Ughbash wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:

SKR said lines don't get bigger because they have a fixed range and Widen spell doesn't affect range.

Cones don't get bigger because they have a fixed range and Widen Spell does not affect range.

SKR said lines do nto get bigger because they have no AREA.

Cones do get bigger becuase they have an area.

Widen DOES turn a 60' cone into a 120' cone SINCE it has an area.

Area of a cone is 1/3 base x H

Area of a Circle is Pi r^2.

So widening a 20'r circle quadruples the area.

Widening a 60' cone Causes the Base and the Height to be doubled and thus quadruples the area. (I realize that the BASE it not mentioned in the description but by making a cone go at a specific angle the base would also be doubled.)

Since a LINE has no AREA it can not techincally be widened.

Read the FAQ again.

SKR wrote:

How does the Widen Spell feat affect spells with line effects?

As written, nothing--lines do not have a width dimension, so that can't be doubled by the feat, and most line spells have a fixed range, which the spell can't exceed unless you're using Enlarge Spell. So, for most lines, Widen Spell has no effect unless you couple it with Enlarge Spell. Yes, it's strange, and we may end up revisiting this rule at some point in the future.

Meanwhile, as a house rule (not an official update to the rules), it's fair to allow someone to use the Widen Spell feat on a line spell and actually double its range. You are, after all, increasing the level by +3, and if you're casting lightning bolt as a 6th-level spell, you ought to at least be able to get a 240-foot bolt out of it.

–Sean K Reynolds (10/22/10)

He never says lines don't have an Area, he says: "lines do not have a width dimension, so that can't be doubled by the feat" neither do Cones, so that can't be doubled either.

He also says: "most line spells have a fixed range, which the spell can't exceed unless you're using Enlarge Spell." Most cones also have a fixed...

Well a cone DOES have a width (which a line does not) so a Cone IS elligible for Widen. The FAQ does not change it and I disagree with your reading of what SKR says. The plain reading of the feat is it expands the AREA of a spell. SKR correctly points out that a LINE does not have a width and thus an area. (Though it could be argued a line in Pathfinder has a width of 5' which would change a 120' lighting bolt 5' wide to a 240' lightning bolt 10' wide as I HOUSE RULE it as this would again multiply the area effect by 4 which is what widen seems to do).

The width of a Cone varies with the length of the cone but by defintiion a cone has a length and a width.

I can see your point, I just read it differently then you do. It would be nice if they commented on it to clarify the clarification *chuckle*.

It would also be nice of they changed how range and area worked with cones.

I would prefer to see a cone have a range of 0 (or touch), and an Area of "a cone extending xx ft". This would allow reach spell to move the location, as well as unambiguoulsy clarify that widen spell would work with it.


Ughbash wrote:

Well a cone DOES have a width (which a line does not) so a Cone IS elligible for Widen. The FAQ does not change it and I disagree with your reading of what SKR says. The plain reading of the feat is it expands the AREA of a spell. SKR correctly points out that a LINE does not have a width and thus an area. (Though it could be argued a line in Pathfinder has a width of 5' which would change a 120' lighting bolt 5' wide to a 240' lightning bolt 10' wide as I HOUSE RULE it as this would again multiply the area effect by 4 which is what widen seems to do).

The width of a Cone varies with the length of the cone but by defintiion a cone has a length and a width.

I can see your point, I just read it differently then you do. It would be nice if they commented on it to clarify the clarification *chuckle*.

It would also be nice of they changed how range and area worked with cones.

I would prefer to see a cone have a range of 0 (or touch), and an Area of "a cone extending xx ft". This would allow reach spell to move the location, as well as unambiguously clarify that widen spell would work with it.

So, where is the width of a cone written? Just double that number and you're off.

Do you know where to find templates of cones with base angles larger than 90 degrees? I didn't know such things existed.

Also, which other spells can Widen affect the range? (not something Widen can usually do)

Edit: Widen doesn't just double the width, it doubles any numeric measurements of the spell's area." Which measurements, exactly, does Widen double? For cones, that is?


Quantum Steve wrote:


So, where is the width of a cone written? Just double that number and you're off.

Do you know where to find templates of cones with base angles larger than 90 degrees? I didn't know such things existed.

Also, which other spells can Widen affect the range? (not something Widen can usually do)

Edit: Widen doesn't just double the width, it doubles any numeric measurements of the spell's area." Which measurements, exactly, does Widen double? For cones, that is?

If you doulbe the height of a cone, you also duolbe the width at the end of the cone.

If a 15' cone is 10' wide at the base then a 30' cone will be 20' wide at the base. I did NOT suggest doubling the angle.

Widen doubles the measurements in an area and in the case of cones doubling the length that they give will quadruple the area (just like doubling the radius will quadruple the area of a circle such as fireball).

You have IMHO interpreted a FAQ to do more than it says.

You ask what is doubled by the cone.

'core rules' wrote:


Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an
area have a particular shape. A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quartercircle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners.

Now Cone of cold has a range of 60'. MOST people will assume that the cone starts at yoru hand and goes out 60' forming a quarter circle. You could argue that the cone of cold has 0 area but can start 60 ' from you if you wanted to read the rules that way.

So I have a quarter circle with a raidius of 60'.

I would double the 60' getting a quarter circle with a radius of 120'.

This is no differnt then a Burst that has a x' radius being increased to a 2x' radius.


I could go point by point with your last post, or I could just say that "Area" is a specific part of a spell description. It's not some ambiguous thing that can be defined many ways. If it's in the spell's "Area" description than it's part of the area, if not, it's not.

A spells descriptors are well defined because they come up a lot. If they weren't well defined it could lead to a lot of confusion.

For example:
Is a Scorching Ray a targeted spell? Well, you have to "target" things with the rays, so, yeah, right?
No, Scorching Ray isn't a targeted spell. It produces one or more rays, which are an effect. This is clearly spelled out in the spell description. If it wasn't. it's easy to see where there could be some confusion.

Is the 60' in a 60' cone part of the cone's area? Well, yeah. You need that 60' measurement to calculate the area (volume) of a cone, so it's part of the area, right?
No. The 60' is the range of the spell. It's clearly spelled out in the spell description. And even though it is, apparently there can still be some confusion.

Yes, it is strange, which is the reason that it's so confusing. According to SKR, the devs may even revisit this rule in the future. But, for right now, Rules As Written, Widen Spell does not work with cones.

That's not to say, that, as a houserule it wouldn't be fair to allow Widen Spell to work on a cone to actually double it's range. You are, after all, increasing the level by +3, and if you're casting cone of cold as a 8th-level spell, you ought to at least be able to get a 120-foot cone out of it.


Quantum Steve wrote:

Yes, it is strange, which is the reason that it's so confusing. According to SKR, the devs may even revisit this rule in the future. But, for right now, Rules As Written, Widen Spell does not work with cones.

Right now with SKR's FAQ Widen does not operate with Lines.

You interpolate that to mean it does not work with Cones.

I disagree with your interpretation for the reason I have pointed out.

Cones are poorly written and in need of clarification, I even posted how I would clarify it several posts up to remove ambiguity. As you said it has a range of 60' which by all interpetations of range would mean it would start up to 60' from the mage. That is NOT the case however.


Ughbash wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:

Yes, it is strange, which is the reason that it's so confusing. According to SKR, the devs may even revisit this rule in the future. But, for right now, Rules As Written, Widen Spell does not work with cones.

Right now with SKR's FAQ Widen does not operate with Lines.

You interpolate that to mean it does not work with Cones.

I disagree with your interpretation for the reason I have pointed out.

Cones are poorly written and in need of clarification, I even posted how I would clarify it several posts up to remove ambiguity. As you said it has a range of 60' which by all interpetations of range would mean it would start up to 60' from the mage. That is NOT the case however.

A Cone's range is not where the cone starts. A cone's range is the range to which the cone extends.

prd wrote:

Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere: Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape.

A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.

prd wrote:

Range

A spell's range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the range entry of the spell description. A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

"(A cone) starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes."

By no interpretations can in start anywhere else. But, how far does it go?

"A spell's range indicates how far from you it can reach"
Well, that was easy. It goes out to it's range. But, wait!

"If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted."
So, even if you did Widen a Cone of Cold and it's area doubled to a 120' cone, the spell still has a fixed range of 60' which widen spell can't affect! Any portion of the cone that extends beyond 60' is wasted!

Even if you don't agree that SKR's FAQ on Lines applies to cones, you must agree that:

1)Area and Range are different descriptions.

2)Widen spell only affects area.

3)The effects of a spell cannot extend beyond the spell's range.

Without increasing the cone's range, which Widen Spell cannot do, you cannot "Widen" a cone.

Contributor

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A cone's area is determined by its Range stat, not by its Area stat. To make a cone bigger, you need Enlarge Spell, not Widen Spell.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

A cone's area is determined by its Range stat, not by its Area stat. To make a cone bigger, you need Enlarge Spell, not Widen Spell.

Widen spell does not work on lines EVEN THOUGH IT SAYS IT DOES. It does not seemingly work on cones and many other types of area effects EVENT THOUGH THAT'S CLEARLY THE INTENT as they are all bursts, emanations, or spreads.

What exactly is this feat supposed to be able to do???

Widen Spell (Metamagic)
You can cast your spells so that they occupy a larger space.
Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%. A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

A cone's area is determined by its Range stat, not by its Area stat. To make a cone bigger, you need Enlarge Spell, not Widen Spell.

Enlarge Spell (Metamagic)

You can increase the range of your spells.

Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level, while medium-range spells have a range of 200 ft. + 20 ft./level and long-range spells have a range of 800 ft. + 80 ft./level. An enlarged spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

Spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as spells whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, do not benefit from this feat.

Contributor

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

*sigh* The problem is with the cone spells, not the metamagic feats.

Jason and I are going to discuss this and come up with a solution (which may be "we need to fix how cone spells are written").


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

*sigh* The problem is with the cone spells, not the metamagic feats.

Jason and I are going to discuss this and come up with a solution (which may be "we need to fix how cone spells are written).

That's good to know, but are you so sure the problem isn't with the feat? The problem you refer to seems to extend to line spells as well.

When the apparent problems seem to apply to almost every spell the feat is to work with, it makes me wonder if the problem really lies with the spells, and not the feat at the center of them all.


So long as cones aren't short, medium or long range, enlarge won't work.

Giving them 'area: 60 ft. cone', for example, instead of range, would work if you want widen to be used with cones rather than enlarge.


I think it's with the cones and lines. as RAW stands, there's no way to get a bigger lightning bolt either.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sekret_One wrote:
I think it's with the cones and lines. as RAW stands, there's no way to get a bigger lightning bolt either.

Whether they fix the spells or the feats, I don't really care as long as they are consistent. Still, I think fixing 2 feats must be easier than changing however many cone and/or line spells there are out there.


Ravingdork wrote:
Sekret_One wrote:
I think it's with the cones and lines. as RAW stands, there's no way to get a bigger lightning bolt either.
Whether they fix the spells or the feats, I don't really care as long as they are consistent. Still, I think fixing 2 feats must be easier than changing however many cone and/or line spells there are out there.

I was just trying to point out that the problem also extends to line spells, as well as the cones.

Fixing the feats would be the most concise solution- but all those spells are double jumbled because of being locked in both range and Area of Effect.

Actually, the enlarge spell feat doesn't need editing. Only the Widen... Enlarge shouldn't apply to the lines and cones, and it currently doesn't with the short/medium/long range condition.

So really only Widen needs to be patched.

Something as simple as adding a clause that Widen also doubles the range of cones and lines. Are there any other AoE's that sort of slip through the Widen Feat's purview?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sekret_One wrote:
Something as simple as adding a clause that Widen also doubles the range of cones and lines.

Clarify that it doubles the range of cones and lines whose effects "originate from the caster" and it sounds like the perfect solution to me.

Otherwise, spells like lightning arc might gain an unintentional benefit.


Ravingdork wrote:


Clarify that it doubles the range of cones and lines whose effects "originate from the caster" and it sounds like the perfect solution to me.

Otherwise, spells like lightning arc might gain an unintentional benefit.

Good point. Oh wait... widen technically still wouldn't apply to that spell, since there is no area, just two targets. The effective 'line' gets created between the two targets...

hmm

How about doubles the range spells with an area of line or cone, and the max range between targets? That would catch lightning arc. Then you can widen things like most mass spells too.

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

*sigh* The problem is with the cone spells, not the metamagic feats.

Jason and I are going to discuss this and come up with a solution (which may be "we need to fix how cone spells are written").

I think he's right about the spell description being wrong. Heck, the feat itself specifically mentions lines and bursts, and the cone is a burst, so it *ought* to be affected. Intuitively, if you've got a feat that makes the area (small "a" there folks) of the spell bigger, it ought to make a cone bigger.

What's screwy is that cone of cold lists Range as 60 feet, yet doesn't list Area as 60 feet. Area should be "60 foot cone-shaped burst" rather than just "cone-shaped burst." Compare it with antimagic field which does it correctly (but redundantly), by listing the 10 feet in both the Range and Area locations.

Personally, I don't think either should list a range, or if there is a range it should be zero, as you can't place either anywhere except AT your location.

Problem's definitely with the spell.

Grand Lodge

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

*sigh* The problem is with the cone spells, not the metamagic feats.

Jason and I are going to discuss this and come up with a solution (which may be "we need to fix how cone spells are written").

Was anything ever done with cone spells and widen/enlarge? I could not find anything fresh on the topic.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well the description of Widen changed if nothing else:

Quote:

Widen Spell (Metamagic)

You can cast your spells so that they occupy a larger space.

Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%. A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.

Note there's still a mistake in the text (which confused me at first as I had no knowledge until RD's post of the previous description of Widen) i.e it still says "one of these four sorts" even though the fourth (line) no longer exists in the description.

EDIT: On a tangential note I've often thought a metamagic feat which increases/manipulates the 'x' of: "one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 'x' ft. apart" such as in Haste, Mass Cure Light Wounds and Magic Missile was missing from the options in the game.

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