How would you react to a PFS GM who admits to not being honed up on the PF rules?


Pathfinder Society

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Liberty's Edge 1/5

I enjoy playing in PFS games but know that it can be hard to get into scenarios at some of the conventions I attend, so I am thinking about offering to GM some scenarios.

I GMed PFS during Season Zero when it was run under the D&D 3.5 rules but haven't run PFS since its move to the PF RPG rules. The reason is that I haven't read the PF RPG rule book, and honestly can't see myself doing so.

I know the 3.5 rules fairly well and I have read the bits of PF RPG I need to play my characters, but because of this I am not aware of all the changes PF RPG made. For example I initially did not realise the Heal skill can be used to heal some Hit Points now via "Treat Deadly Wounds", or that every class can now find traps regardless of DC and the Trapfinding class ability just provides a bonus to do so.

The point is there may be more significant rules changes out there that I am not aware of and if I were to GM would potentially rule incorrectly in line with 3.5 rather than PF RPG.

So, if you sat down at a table to play PFS and the GM says up front:

"Just so you know, I am familiar with D&D3.5 but haven't completely read the Pathfinder RPG, so I may make a few wrong rules calls. If its really important to the scenario, please call me on it. However if it is not so important, please let it got for the moment and inform me after the session or in a break, okay?"

How would you react?

Would you be annoyed that your GM is not competent enough?

Your thoughts and feedback would be welcomed!


Supportively.

At the end of the day, we all have weaknesses when it comes to the games rules.

I'd do what I could to help you do your job.

That said, I would strongly advise meeting your players half way. By the book, give it a quick read, learn as much as you can about the changes. If you don't want to do any learning of the new rules, you and every one else will probably have more fun if your a player.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As long as the GM can paint the story with words and run a fun game, any rules glitches can be worked out, unless you are unlucky to have some truly anal player at the table.

I can feel you, DigiMage - I began playing 3.5 with a DM who was quite ... liberal ... when it comes to rules, then I began running Planescape 3.5 myself, discovered that I have half the rules wrong, then I got to run RotRL using no less than SIX rule sets - we began with 3.5, then PF Alpha 1,2,3,Beta,Final.

And it was last week that I discovered that you can abandon a full attack after the first swing. Which is a 3.5 rule, and I never noticed it before.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Hi Digital Mage,

With all the new classes, archetypes and player options being released each month, it's difficult for anyone to be across everything new in Pathfinder. As a GM, you're expected to have at the table a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and Bestiary. Players are expected to bring a copy of any rulebook that contains player options their character uses outside of the Core Rulebook so the GM can refer to if required.

I freely admit to not knowing every rule off the top of my head. That's what the rulebooks are for. Don't be afraid to pause to look stuff up during the game. The players will often help you out anyway, eg the Monk player will be more familiar with 3.5 to PFS changes to the grapple rules, the Wizard player will be more familiar with the spells, and don't even get me started on Eidolons! To speed up gameplay, ask a player with the knowledge to look something up, and keep the game moving.

Note: a few recent PFS scenarios do contain classes, creatures, feats etc from other sources, notably the Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic and Bestiary 2. While you could run these scenarios without these sources, eg NPCs will usually have enough stats to run with only Core Rulebook knowledge - what NPC uses every feat or ability at his disposal in an encounter anyway? - it does makes it a lot easier if you have those sources on hand, but it's something you can work toward as you see the need.

We all had to start somewhere, and most of us are still learning. A solid knowledge of 3.5 rules is certainly a good base to work with.

Cheers,
Stephen (DarkWhite)
Pathfinder Society 4-Star GM
Venture-Captain, Australia

The Exchange 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean

Hi Digital Mage,
I pretty much support everything that's been said here. 3.5 is a good base and the players will be aware of many of the differences that affect their characters. I would recommend that you do spend some time reading at least some sections of the core rulebook but that can be done over time. (Classes, feats and the combat section should be looked at).

The advantage of running PFS scenarios is definitely that you cna run them just with looking at the rules that specifically apply to that scenario (so if you've got a grappling monster you'll check out the grappling section, etc) and then as you run more scenarios you'll become familiar with more rules.

If you're running at any UK conventions that I am at then feel free to come and talk with me and you can always email me too. I want to encourage more people to GM!

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'll mirror the previous posts, but with a bit of bite too.

Since the Society rules are meant to produce a level playing field (EX: no crafting skills, and much tighter purchasing guidelines), your minor errors may have repercussions to players months from your actual game play. You state "The reason is that I haven't read the PF RPG rule book, and honestly can't see myself doing so", and frankly that seems a bit elitist. 3.5 isn't PFS - plain and simple. No one should expect you to recite rules as scripture, but honestly if I sat in on a game and the GM said they had no intention of reading the rule book, I would politely leave the table and contact the session organizer to have them removed from the active roster. IMHO, this is akin to trying to play Baseball after only playing Softball - first time you pitch underhand, okay we're all human. But then you tell the coach you don't want to read the rules... off the grass! As long as you give an honest effort, no one should be upset about you trying.

That being said, I applaud that you're willing to GM in the first place. It take a considerable amount of time to properly prepare to run a game well, and good GM's are in short supply in any game environment. And in general, folks will be willing to help out a GM new to the rule set when, as you pointed out in your example, you stated up front that you might have trouble with the finer differences between 3.5 and PFS. I myself have made some mistakes at the tables, and my players were kind enough to point them out so they could be corrected. This is a game, meant to be enjoyed by all. If we all act like adults, and kill/loot/subdue everything the GM can throw at us, we all win!


As long as the GM was willing to be politely corrected, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Odzmye wrote:
You state "The reason is that I haven't read the PF RPG rule book, and honestly can't see myself doing so", and frankly that seems a bit elitist. 3.5 isn't PFS - plain and simple. No one should expect you to recite rules as scripture, but honestly if I sat in on a game and the GM said they had no intention of reading the rule book, I would politely leave the table and contact the session organizer to have them removed from the active roster.

I think he meant that he hasn't read the rulebook cover to cover; I think most PFRPG players & GMs would say the same, frankly.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Thanks for all the responses so far, they have been more receptive to the idea than I had perhaps thought might be the case.

Zombieneighbours wrote:
By the book, give it a quick read, learn as much as you can about the changes.

Did you mean "buy the book"? If so, don't worry I have the PDF and a hardcopy (all nicely indexed with stickies) and I also have PDFs of the Bestiary, GM Screen and APG.

What do you mean exactly by "give it a quick read"? Are there certain sections I should read? Someone did a guide to reading the D&D4e PHB in 40 pages for example - a guide to focussing on what is important - does such exist for PF?

Stephen White wrote:
As a GM, you're expected to have at the table a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and Bestiary.

I only have the Bestiary in PDF format. I would likely printout the pages needed for the scenario's monsters but am I expected to have a physical copy in case a player uses Summon Nature's Ally or something? If so I guess I would need to make a purchase (and use up valuable shelf space :( )

Stephen White wrote:
The players will often help you out anyway, eg the Monk player will be more familiar with 3.5 to PFS changes to the grapple rules

I really don't like the PF Grapple rules (and I was happy with the 3.5 rules) - however I have read them, including the blog clarifications because my Druid character is a grappler, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem :)

Equally I know about channelling as I have played Clerics.

I would of course also read up on any rules that I know I will need based upon the content of the scenario.

Stephen White wrote:
and don't even get me started on Eidolons!

Yeah, I know zilch about them other than I think they are to do with the summoner class. I guess I will have to rely on players knowing the rules of their own classes - for example I have no idea how firearms combat differs from regular ranged combat for Gunslingers.

David Harrison wrote:
I would recommend that you do spend some time reading at least some sections of the core rulebook but that can be done over time. (Classes, feats and the combat section should be looked at).

Cool, I guess maybe I do need to read a few chapters - no need to read cover to cover as I normally do with an RPG book. So should I read those chapters completely, or for example should I read the general Feat info, the table of Feats and then look at the detail of some of the more common feats e.g. Power Attack?

David Harrison wrote:
If you're running at any UK conventions that I am at then feel free to come and talk with me and you can always email me too. I want to encourage more people to GM!

Yes, it would likely be at either OddCon if I can commit myself to going or Conception.

It was my struggle to get signed up to games at this year's Conception and the 15 min earlier mustering for living games that really made me consider GMing again (I GMed PFS season zero at Conception before).

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Odzmye wrote:
but with a bit of bite too.

You're not kidding! :)

Odzmye wrote:
Since the Society rules are meant to produce a level playing field (EX: no crafting skills, and much tighter purchasing guidelines), your minor errors may have repercussions to players months from your actual game play.

The lack of crafting in PFS is a good thing for me - one less thing to worry about. And yes, I would want correcting if a rule change would make a significant difference, e.g. difference between a player losing a magic item or not, or between life and death for example. Are there other things like that to look out for?

Odzmye wrote:
You state "The reason is that I haven't read the PF RPG rule book, and honestly can't see myself doing so", and frankly that seems a bit elitist.

I didn't mean to sound elitist, just realistic, and I imagine we might actually have a disconnect between what we mean by "read the book". I read RPG books cover to cover, whether its a rulebook, a campaign guide or scenario. Pathfinder RPG is 560 odd pages long, and to be honest that would take me months to read through cover to cover and as I would only be using it to play in PFS I would like to make better use of my time and read some of my many other game books.

Does every PFS GM read the book cover to cover?

However, I do read bits of the book relating to my character. I guess what I need to do before I GM PFS is to read specific sections, like racial traits, classes (at least up to level 8 or so, definately not above 12th level), new skills, key feats (Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Dodge etc), the entire combat chapter most likely, and perhaps the Magic chapter?

The trouble is, I don't know all the little changes PF made, and so don't necessarily know which bits of the book I really need to take note of without reading it all cover to cover. As an example, for all I know Paizo now have standing from prone not provoking an AoO (though I don't think so).

Odzmye wrote:
honestly if I sat in on a game and the GM said they had no intention of reading the rule book, I would politely leave the table and contact the session organizer to have them removed from the active roster.

This is the sort of reaction I was worried about, I would rather not GM than ruin the expectations of even one player. Having said that, I wouldn't state that I have no intention to read the rulebook - that was more for context in this thread - instead I would just indicate that I may not have caught all the changes between 3.5 and PF (and this is because I still run and play 3.5 in games that are not PFS).

Odzmye wrote:
That being said, I applaud that you're willing to GM in the first place. It take a considerable amount of time to properly prepare to run a game well, and good GM's are in short supply in any game environment. And in general, folks will be willing to help out a GM new to the rule set when, as you pointed out in your example, you stated up front that you might have trouble with the finer differences between 3.5 and PFS.

Cool, it looks like you may be happy if I was GMing for you as long as I didn't make my elitist sounding comment :)

hogarth wrote:
I think he meant that he hasn't read the rulebook cover to cover; I think most PFRPG players & GMs would say the same, frankly.

Exactly and I guess maybe I am strange in that way, but I guess I do have to change my reading behaviour and do some focused reading even if I don't read it cover to cover.

On a somewhat related note, I only have the Gazateer, not the Inner Sea World Guide - is that going to be an issue? I have read Seekers of Secrets and Guide to Absalam as well as the Gazateer and am currently reading Guide to Darkmoon Vale.

The Exchange 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean

DigitalMage wrote:

Thanks for all the responses so far, they have been more receptive to the idea than I had perhaps thought might be the case.

......

Cool, I guess maybe I do need to read a few chapters - no need to read cover to cover as I normally do with an RPG book. So should I read those chapters completely, or for example should I read the general Feat info, the table of Feats and then look at the detail of some of the more common feats e.g. Power Attack?

I would suggest looking through the classes to get an idea of how they have changed (0th level spells, paladin smite, rage powers, etc), checking out the common feats to see what has changed (Dodge, combat expertise, power attack, cleave have all changed) and looking through the combat chapter, specifically the CMB and CMD rules. That would all hold you in good stead for GMing.

The inner sea primer is a good intro to the setting. Scenarios generally have some more detail about the specific location. So the inner sea guide isn't essential but I would highly recommend it. IMHO it is the best campaign setting book that has been produced for a roleplaying game.

So hope to see you at Oddcon or Conception.
(And I'll be in Derby on 20th August if you want to talk about GMing then.)


DigitalMage wrote:

Thanks for all the responses so far, they have been more receptive to the idea than I had perhaps thought might be the case.

Zombieneighbours wrote:
By the book, give it a quick read, learn as much as you can about the changes.

Did you mean "buy the book"? If so, don't worry I have the PDF and a hardcopy (all nicely indexed with stickies) and I also have PDFs of the Bestiary, GM Screen and APG.

What do you mean exactly by "give it a quick read"? Are there certain sections I should read? Someone did a guide to reading the D&D4e PHB in 40 pages for example - a guide to focussing on what is important - does such exist for PF?

I did mean buy, sorry.

As for the quick read...
The combat section, and the magic section, sans spells, and maybe the DM section. Many of the most important changes a Dm should know are in those.

More specifically than that...I cannot help.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DigitalMage wrote:


So, if you sat down at a table to play PFS and the GM says up front:

"Just so you know, I am familiar with D&D3.5 but haven't completely read the Pathfinder RPG, so I may make a few wrong rules calls. If its really important to the scenario, please call me on it. However if it is not so important, please let it got for the moment and inform me after the session or in a break, okay?"

How would you react?

Would you be annoyed that your GM is not competent enough?

Your thoughts and feedback would be welcomed!

I've worked the organising event at conventions to know that many struggle to get enough Judges. And it's frequently a choice of use what warm bodies they can get, or not have the tables run at all.

So basically it comes down to two choices.

1. Act like many an irate mall shopper, throw a fit, demand to see a campaign coordinator or otherwise complain.

2. Work with what you have, offer what assistance you can provide so that a table can go off and people have a good time.

But really as a Judge you SHOULD be making some effort to get yourself at least minimally prepped. You MUST read the campaign guidelines and the core rules, so either get a hold of the 10 dollar PDF or study up on the PF SRD sites. Pathfinder has quite a few important differences from 3.5 enough to make it nontrivial. The campaign guidelines are a free download from this site.

It's one thing not to be prepared when running your first table, it's another not to be willing to improve yourself.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

The [ 3.5 Conversion Guide ] covers some of the basic differences between 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG.

Liberty's Edge

DigitalMage, if I came across as too aggressive, I apologize. I don't flame on folks, so please believe me when I say that I feel I would enjoy sitting in on your GM sessions. No I most certainly do not expect anyone to read a rule book front-to-back, and my reference to leaving the table would only occur as a last resort (if the DM was being a complete prat). I've only run a few 'official' PFS sessions myself, and am by NO MEANS a rules lawyer. My own style is far more high-energy, and my goal is to see a table full of smiling faces in the end, happy that the challenge was defeated and the characters can 'walk off into the sunset as the credits roll'. The fact that you asked for advice is a sure sign of your effort level. Keep up the good work, and if you ever find yourself across the pond, I'd be happy to share dice and a pint or two! :)

Dark Archive

DigitalMage wrote:

I enjoy playing in PFS games but know that it can be hard to get into scenarios at some of the conventions I attend, so I am thinking about offering to GM some scenarios.

I GMed PFS during Season Zero when it was run under the D&D 3.5 rules but haven't run PFS since its move to the PF RPG rules. The reason is that I haven't read the PF RPG rule book, and honestly can't see myself doing so.

I know the 3.5 rules fairly well and I have read the bits of PF RPG I need to play my characters, but because of this I am not aware of all the changes PF RPG made. For example I initially did not realise the Heal skill can be used to heal some Hit Points now via "Treat Deadly Wounds", or that every class can now find traps regardless of DC and the Trapfinding class ability just provides a bonus to do so.

The point is there may be more significant rules changes out there that I am not aware of and if I were to GM would potentially rule incorrectly in line with 3.5 rather than PF RPG.

So, if you sat down at a table to play PFS and the GM says up front:

"Just so you know, I am familiar with D&D3.5 but haven't completely read the Pathfinder RPG, so I may make a few wrong rules calls. If its really important to the scenario, please call me on it. However if it is not so important, please let it got for the moment and inform me after the session or in a break, okay?"

How would you react?

Would you be annoyed that your GM is not competent enough?

Your thoughts and feedback would be welcomed!

I think most players would be just fine with your statement. It shows that you are comfortable in your own skin and are willing to learn the rules as you go.

I never played 3rd edition, so learning the Pathfinder rules was a bit challenging. I've GM'd 10 scenarios and I find that looking at the mechanics of each encounter within the scenario really helps me learn the rules. I check the stat blocks of each creature to validate the numbers. I also look up the feats and spells that they know too. It allows me to pickup new information during each scenario without it feeling so overwhelming.

Good luck!

Dark Archive 3/5 *** Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Sheffield

DigitalMage wrote:

Yes, it would likely be at either OddCon if I can commit myself to going or Conception.

It was my struggle to get signed up to games at this year's Conception and the 15 min earlier mustering for living games that really made me consider GMing again (I GMed PFS season zero at Conception before).

If I make it to either, I'll happily play with you. We can muddle through the rules together!

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've still got 2nd Ed/3.0-isms stuck in my head, and I haven't GMed in a while, so I always qualify by saying "Hey, I'm a bit rusty with the rules, so I apologize in advance if things seem to chug a bit, but let's roll some dice and have fun!"

Reading your scenarios ahead of time certainly helps too. Make tactics notes too, or highlight pertinent feats that you may overlook (or equipment).

Grand Lodge 3/5

David Harrison wrote:

I would suggest looking through the classes to get an idea of how they have changed (0th level spells, paladin smite, rage powers, etc), checking out the common feats to see what has changed (Dodge, combat expertise, power attack, cleave have all changed) and looking through the combat chapter, specifically the CMB and CMD rules. That would all hold you in good stead for GMing.

To this, I would add reading the Glossary (it's amazing how many rules people miss are in there), and the Monster Abilities from the Bestiary (tho you cold look those up on an "as needed" basis, a quick skim certainly helps).

I encourage you to try it out! I almost always let my players know that polite corrections are welcome, as I still learn something new/different in the rules almost every week. So you are far from alone, and far from unwelcome.

Silver Crusade 5/5

DigitalMage wrote:

I enjoy playing in PFS games but know that it can be hard to get into scenarios at some of the conventions I attend, so I am thinking about offering to GM some scenarios.

I GMed PFS during Season Zero when it was run under the D&D 3.5 rules but haven't run PFS since its move to the PF RPG rules. The reason is that I haven't read the PF RPG rule book, and honestly can't see myself doing so.

I know the 3.5 rules fairly well and I have read the bits of PF RPG I need to play my characters, but because of this I am not aware of all the changes PF RPG made. For example I initially did not realise the Heal skill can be used to heal some Hit Points now via "Treat Deadly Wounds", or that every class can now find traps regardless of DC and the Trapfinding class ability just provides a bonus to do so.

The point is there may be more significant rules changes out there that I am not aware of and if I were to GM would potentially rule incorrectly in line with 3.5 rather than PF RPG.

So, if you sat down at a table to play PFS and the GM says up front:

"Just so you know, I am familiar with D&D3.5 but haven't completely read the Pathfinder RPG, so I may make a few wrong rules calls. If its really important to the scenario, please call me on it. However if it is not so important, please let it got for the moment and inform me after the session or in a break, okay?"

How would you react?

Would you be annoyed that your GM is not competent enough?

Your thoughts and feedback would be welcomed!

Well I would do my best to be supportive of the GM. As I am sure it was said earlier in thread, GMing or DMing is an art, and none of us are perfect at it. I would not mind. We all have to learn, and we all have to start from somewhere. Now I would much prefer a GM who is up front about it, then one who is not. I suppose I would find it much more annoying is to be playing at a GM's table, and watching him consistantly calling the 3.5 rules, and not willing to admit, he might have made an error and the rules were slightly different in Pathfinder.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

DigitalMage wrote:
And yes, I would want correcting if a rule change would make a significant difference, e.g. difference between a player losing a magic item or not, or between life and death for example. Are there other things like that to look out for?

People can spend a lot of resources healing, given that there's no dedicated healer due to random party makeup. Thus, any error that results in gimping a PC's abilities or making a monster/trap too strong can lead to more charges used off their precious wand of cure light wounds, or the use of that potion of cure serious wounds they were saving for an emergency. So, for instance, failing to realize that most corporeal undead are able to be critted/sneak attacked now, causing the fight to go on for three more rounds and consuming extra resources on the part of the PCs.

That said, your willingness to be corrected on points that the players deem important will save you from most such situations. Unfortunately, if the error involves information that none of the players have (like if they don't know that undead are crittable in the above example), then they can't call you on it. If they find out later about the error, there could be some bitterness. Thus, be very careful about monsters, since many players may not be able to correct you on them.

All in all, though, you sound like a good GM. Good luck and have fun!

Liberty's Edge 5/5

One trick I commonly do is to ask someone at the table to volunteer to research rules as needed. Often, rules questions come up that do not require game play to grind to a complete halt, as long as the GM isn't the one poring over the various rule books.

I've been actively gaming since 1978 and currently play both Pathfinder and 4th edition. I'll be the first to admit that the various rules begin to blur in my head.

I've also found that there are many players who really get a kick out of being the "rules guy".

In addition, I strongly recommend reading each spell NPC's intend to use. There have been some significant changes to common spells that can have major repercussions if the old rules are followed.

I know that I shafted an entire party once due to failing to realize that glitterdust now allows a save each round to overcome blindness.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

David Harrison wrote:
I would suggest looking through the classes to get an idea of how they have changed (0th level spells, paladin smite, rage powers, etc), checking out the common feats to see what has changed (Dodge, combat expertise, power attack, cleave have all changed) and looking through the combat chapter, specifically the CMB and CMD rules. That would all hold you in good stead for GMing.

That is all great advice. I will read those sections, and have already read the CM stuff but will also print out the Pathfinder SORD for quick reference too.

David Harrison wrote:
The inner sea primer is a good intro to the setting.

Would it give me anything the Gazateer doesn't?

Zombieneighbours wrote:

As for the quick read...

The combat section, and the magic section, sans spells, and maybe the DM section.

Magic section as well and DM section, got it.

Stephen White wrote:
The [ 3.5 Conversion Guide ] covers some of the basic differences between 3.5 and Pathfinder RPG.

I had downloaded that nearly a couple of years ago now, but hadn't really looked at it. It looks as though it will be useful highlighting the key class changes. Thanks for the tip!

K Neil Shackleton wrote:
To this, I would add reading the Glossary [...] and the Monster Abilities from the Bestiary (tho you cold look those up on an "as needed" basis, a quick skim certainly helps).

Added those to the list :)

Odzmye wrote:
DigitalMage, if I came across as too aggressive, I apologize.

No apologies necessary, your "bite" was in response to a hypothetical comment / attitude that I wouldn't make at the gaming table. All advice is appreciated!

Jiggy wrote:
People can spend a lot of resources healing, given that there's no dedicated healer due to random party makeup. Thus, any error that results in gimping a PC's abilities or making a monster/trap too strong can lead to more charges used off their precious wand of cure light wounds,

Cool I will bear that in mind! Ta.

I think I will read the core of the suggested chapters and try to make a note of any interesting stuff that gets mentioned on these forums (e.g. in the thread about PF rules people don't know). However even reading all the rules I still will likely get tripped up on occassion as I will have D&D3.5, D&D4e and PF rules all sloshing around in my head :)

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Sarta wrote:
I know that I shafted an entire party once due to failing to realize that glitterdust now allows a save each round to overcome blindness.

I don't have all teh 3.5 feats and spells memorised so I will be looking up any NPCs' feats and spells and magic items anyway so hopefully I won't fall foul of such changes :)

Sovereign Court 4/5

I think 3.5 knowledge is sufficient, but then you have to be open-minded if a player states the rule to be different. Since you'd be the "unknowledged one", you could rule how the player sees it, and check the issue afterwards.

Oh and prior to running a scenario it's good to check up those non-core feats from PRD. I think they are listed there as well.


You might get some use out of this thread as well:
What are some things about the Pathfinder rules that you think most people do not know?

It dips towards flame-warring from time to time, but there are some interesting gems in there.

The Exchange 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean

DigitalMage wrote:


David Harrison wrote:
The inner sea primer is a good intro to the setting.
Would it give me anything the Gazateer doesn't?

It's more up to date but for the general flavour of the nations the Gazeteer will be fine.

(Oh and yes, the Pathfinder SORD is recommended!)

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Deussu wrote:
Oh and prior to running a scenario it's good to check up those non-core feats from PRD. I think they are listed there as well.

That is a good idea - anything not in core, APG or Seekers of Secrets I can hopefully look up in the PRD.

hogarth wrote:

You might get some use out of this thread as well:

What are some things about the Pathfinder rules that you think most people do not know?

Yeah. I have been following that thread and was the one I was referrin to when I said "try to make a note of any interesting stuff that gets mentioned on these forums (e.g. in the thread about PF rules people don't know)"

2/5 *

DigitalMage wrote:
The reason is that I haven't read the PF RPG rule book, and honestly can't see myself doing so.

I don't have a problem with a good GM being new to Pathfinder (and not knowing all of the rules). However, you should at least attempt to read the PF rules when you have time, because the subtley's make it quite different. And while you're learning, only GM in the level 1-5 range.

Also, I'm not a fan of GMs who want players to only bring up disagreements at the end of a session. If you haven't read the PF rules, your mistake could be game breaking. If you pulled Rule 0 on something basic that you should know, that would definitely annoy me.

As GM, I make mistakes and I don't mind if the players point them out. Sometimes they're mistakes on rules I know but forgot in the moment. Having said that, there is a balance, I don't want major arguments at my table but I also don't want to rule 0 everything, especially when I'm wrong.

4/5

I remember having a GM at Stratagicon that knew very little about combat rules, probably the worse combat I've been in, however she was also one of the best roll players I ever had the privilage to play with.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Digital Mage,

My home gaming group uses D&D 3.5 with all its supplements, or core 3.5 with a lot of house rules, or Warriors & Warlords, or something else, depending on who's GMing at the time. And I also play and GM Pathfinder Society.

I've found that the continual switching back and forth has destroyed any sort of system mastery I might once have had. I need to look up up the wording of every spell and most every feat.

That said, convention play is wild. Some fellow will come to your table with his 10-level half-orc summoner/magus, with spells from Ultimate Combat and Faiths of Balance, with material from Orcs of Golarion, the Guide to the Inner Sea, and a couple of APs. He'll bring all those resources to the table for you to take a look at, but if you're not up-to-speed on how that character works, it will take you at least a half-hour to check everything. And there's six other players at the table, each with her own PC to look through. At the end of the day, we GMs have to trust the players to understand the rules-systems they bring to our tables.

So, your system-fu is not so far behind that of most PFS GMs.

So long as you are willing to learn as you go, to have people correct you in serious matters immediately and in minor matters as breaks allow, you'll be fine.

--Chris

1/5 **

I'd have zero problem with it. Rules knowledge is a distant second to good pacing, role-playing, etc. Odds are you will have someone at the table who is willing (and able) to help out.

Just avoid tables of n00bs with pregens who are likely looking to learn the rules from you.

The Exchange 2/5

As long as you were willing to accept rules corrections in game, I wouldn't have a problem. However, there are some things that are VERY different in pathfinder that are a BIG deal to some character classes (I'm thinking, for example, the way smite now works for paladins) and nerfing someone's class abilities because you wanted to run by 3.5 rules till the end of the game wouldn't be really fair in cases like that.

Shadow Lodge

I'm with the others, except I'd suggest you allow corrections 'in line' to the game. If you're not yet ready to be the authority on the rules, you shouldn't claim the protections of 'after the session'. Particularly with PFS where you're not going to be able to go back and fix it later.

I'd also suggest that reading it won't probably take as long as you might think. MUCH of the book is familiar to you.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I would be totally fine with it. I'm not 100% with the rules myself and for me story and role playing always trumps rules.

I always have me handy highlighter nearby when I go to prep the mods. And that's one thing that I can't stress enough. If you have the time, make sure you can prep. Although I never feel I've taken enough time to prep. (I'm GMing at GENCON...what am I doing online?)

In my experience as a PFS gm, players are eager to play and if you make a little slip up with the rules, they'll help you out.

Grand Lodge 4/5 *

Gorbacz wrote:
As long as the GM can paint the story with words and run a fun game, any rules glitches can be worked out, unless you are unlucky to have some truly anal player at the table.

The responses here drifted quickly to rules. Rules are important, no doubt about that. However, I feel this post is the most important and wanted to comment on it.

If the GM doesn't tell the story there's nothing left but 5-foot steps and rule lookups. I'd rather play a game with a GM who does a phenomenal job visiually leading us through the adventure. One where everyone talks about the story afterward. I'd quickly pass on a GM who can quote the rule book and all I come away with is tactical movement memories and an abundance of rule clarifications I wasn't aware of.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Jason S wrote:
I don't have a problem with a good GM being new to Pathfinder (and not knowing all of the rules). However, you should at least attempt to read the PF rules when you have time, because the subtley's make it quite different.

as posted previously I think I will be doing targeted reading, which will still take me a very significant amount of time (I get little time to read, so even the sections I have identified will likely take me several weeks) - I still don't intend to read the book cover to cover.

Jason S wrote:
And while you're learning, only GM in the level 1-5 range.

This is good advice, and something I was thinking myself, when I volunteer I will indicate my status re the PF rules and ask for level 1 to 5.

Jason S wrote:
Also, I'm not a fan of GMs who want players to only bring up disagreements at the end of a session. If you haven't read the PF rules, your mistake could be game breaking.

As I stated in my original post if the rule mistake is really important I would ask for players to call me on it there and then. Only trivial stuff would I expect to be brought up afterwards or at a break; I still want to know what I got wrong so I can learn but I don't want to bog down the game discussing whether a modifier should be +2 or +3 when the attack would have missed either way.

TBH even in PFS under PF RPG rules I see some rule mistakes being made and I don't call it out if its not material to the game - more than once I have seen a GM not appply both the -4 penalty to firing into melee AND the +4 AC for cover when a PC fires at a foe who is in melee with another PC who also provides cover. If the attacker rolls a total of 9 anyway, its a moot point.

Chris Mortika wrote:
I've found that the continual switching back and forth has destroyed any sort of system mastery I might once have had.

This is one of my big fears and another reason I have not read the PF RPG book cover to cover yet - I only play PF RPG for PFS and prefer 3.5 for any games I play or run. However I have run a 4e campaign now and am currently playing in a 4e cmapaign too and am already starting to confuse the rule between the two now (charging is only a +1 bonus in 4e) so maybe I have to accept that I will get muddled if I want to play 3.5, 4e and PF :)

Chris Mortika wrote:
Some fellow will come to your table with his 10-level half-orc summoner/magus, with spells from Ultimate Combat and Faiths of Balance, with material from Orcs of Golarion, the Guide to the Inner Sea, and a couple of APs. He'll bring all those resources to the table for you to take a look at, but if you're not up-to-speed on how that character works, it will take you at least a half-hour to check everything.

Yeah even if I did read the PF RPG rules, I don't expect to buy any more books beyond the APG so I would be asking the player to explain how his Gunslinger or Magus works anyway. :)

teribithia9 wrote:
However, there are some things that are VERY different in pathfinder that are a BIG deal to some character classes (I'm thinking, for example, the way smite now works for paladins)

I aim to read the classes section and also the conversion guide will hopefully highlight major changes. Also if I did get a class feature wrong, that is the sort of thing I would expect to be called on there and then.

mcbobbo wrote:
I'm with the others, except I'd suggest you allow corrections 'in line' to the game. If you're not yet ready to be the authority on the rules, you shouldn't claim the protections of 'after the session'.

As stated the "after the session" would be for trivial rules issues or ones that are a moot point - anything significant I would be happy to correct there and then.

mcbobbo wrote:
I'd also suggest that reading it won't probably take as long as you might think. MUCH of the book is familiar to you.

Trust me, I am a slow reader, and don't get too much time to read (maybe 3 hours a week, perhaps a couple hours more if I have a book in PDF format and it renders on my phone) - reading the PF RPG core rulebook cover to cover would likely take me a few months! And I still have books I bought 3 years ago sitting on my shelf unread so I my reading time is very precious.

Syrus Kath wrote:
If you have the time, make sure you can prep. Although I never feel I've taken enough time to prep. (I'm GMing at GENCON...what am I doing online?)

Definately, I always prep and for pre-written scenarios I like to read them twice, making notes and looking up every feat and spell NPCs have. So I won't be an emergency PFS GM, but hopefully with some pre-planning I can commit to run a few scenarios at a convention (I ran 3 different PFS scenarios at Conception in Season Zero).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DigitalMage wrote:
This is one of my big fears and another reason I have not read the PF RPG book cover to cover yet - I only play PF RPG for PFS and prefer 3.5 for any games I play or run. However I have run a 4e campaign now and am currently playing in a 4e cmapaign too and am already starting to confuse the rule between the two now (charging is only a +1 bonus in 4e) so maybe I have to accept that I will get muddled if I want to play 3.5, 4e and PF :)

Run Pathfinder enough and you'll eventually lose any desire to downgrade back to 3.5. :) I myself am at the point where I'm considering getting rid of all my 3.5 materials for good.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

LazarX wrote:
Run Pathfinder enough and you'll eventually lose any desire to downgrade back to 3.5. :) I myself am at the point where I'm considering getting rid of all my 3.5 materials for good.

Yeah, LazarX and I disagree here. I have four shelves full of D&D 3.5 material, and it all works better with the rules intended for it than it does with Pathfinder. I run PFS to support Paizo, but I'm still a big fan of the grittier earlier edition.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, I have already liberated myself of most 3.5 WotC material. The amount of useful stuff per book was so low that it was mostly just a burden for my bookshelf.

Also, Pathfinder gave me a golden opportunity to hit the "reset" button, forget the entire 3.5 bloat, and keep my players just with 3 splatbooks to handle instead of 30. Many of my players were intimated by the 3.5 splatbook shelf and are now happy with having "just" APG, UM and UC to handle. And still some think this should be core only.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

LazarX wrote:
Run Pathfinder enough and you'll eventually lose any desire to downgrade back to 3.5. :)

Simply due to the popularity and the lack of PDFs for D&D3.5 I have considered that however three things make me think it won't happen:

1) Although many of the changes in PF I deem good, some changes are terrible IMHO (grapple, Fly skill, channelling - though it took me a while to twig on to that last one).

2) It doesn't support my favourite setting of Eberron - too many small changes have been made so that for me its not compatible.

3) While I considered ditching Eberron and trying to make Golarion my preferred setting (and it is growing on me), the setting "bloat" and the fact that setting material spans two editions (3.5 and PF) has the completionist and perfectionist in me abandoning the idea.

To be honest I had practically given up on PF but it was Pathfinder Society Organised play that got me back playing it and even purchasing several products.

LazarX wrote:
I myself am at the point where I'm considering getting rid of all my 3.5 materials for good.

I have bought more 3.5 books since Pathfinder was released than ever before :)

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Just discovered that I need to add a new 64 page book to my reading list before I should be GMing (Field Guide) :(

I doubt I will be ready to GM at OddCon now, maybe ready for Conception.


DigitalMage wrote:

Just discovered that I need to add a new 64 page book to my reading list before I should be GMing (Field Guide) :(

I doubt I will be ready to GM at OddCon now, maybe ready for Conception.

Need to wait until Christmas for a copy of the Field Guide?

:-?

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Need to wait until Christmas for a copy of the Field Guide?

:-?

No, I could buy the PDF as soon as it is released, the issue is the time to read it, it takes me a few weeks to read a 64 page book, possibly less if I am not reading a hardcopy book as well (as I am now). I really am a slow reader, I started Guide to Darkmoon Vale last week and am only on page 10 now :(

I need to finish reading that, finish reading the Eberron Campaign Guide that I am reading in hardcopy, then read the sections of the PF RPG and Bestiary that I have identified and now read the field guide. I really wish I was a faster read and had more time to read.

2/5

I am more concerned that the GM is fair, and has a grasp of how to run a combat efficiently. Knowing the details of all the rules is not that important. Odds are any table will have someone who is expert enough in the rules to cover. A GM that can run a fun table is far, far better than a GM who has memorized the rules, but makes playing a chore.

The Exchange 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean

DigitalMage wrote:

Just discovered that I need to add a new 64 page book to my reading list before I should be GMing (Field Guide) :(

I doubt I will be ready to GM at OddCon now, maybe ready for Conception.

Honestly there's not as much to read as you think.

If you ever want to talk about this with me over a drink at a convention then please do so :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DigitalMage wrote:
2) It doesn't support my favourite setting of Eberron - too many small changes have been made so that for me its not compatible.

I really don't see why it couldn't work with Eberron. I've seen two workable revamps of the Artificer, a few on the Warforged and other races. There's no reason that Pathfinder can't be used just as well on Eberron as it does with Golarian now that the rules set is essentially complete. You just have to homeroll it or download the material from fan sites like PathfinderDB as Paizo can't touch the place.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DigitalMage wrote:

I need to finish reading that, finish reading the Eberron Campaign Guide that I am reading in hardcopy, then read the sections of the PF RPG and Bestiary that I have identified and now read the field guide. I really wish I was a faster read and had more time to read.

You might be able to improve your reading and comprehension speed. John F. Kennedy, one of the fastest talkers alive (He held the Guiness Record for awhile at speaking 350 words per minute) was a big fan of the Evelyn Woods Reading Dynamics course. I'm not that fast a reader myself, but I can generally read the Lord of the Rings trilogy over a weekend.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

David Harrison wrote:
Honestly there's not as much to read as you think.

I know that I could probably run a decent PFS game without reading a bit of the new field guide, but as it is part of the core assumption I will take the time to read it (just as I did Seekers or Secrets even though I haven't used it at all!).

I prefer to be absolutely ready than to be found lacking - especially as it is a living campaign rather than just a one-shot campaign ganme with disposable pre-gen characters.

LazarX wrote:
I really don't see why it couldn't work with Eberron.

For other people probably not, but any amount of conversion work is too much considering I have the 3.5 system and am happy with it.

LazarX wrote:
You might be able to improve your reading and comprehension speed.

Yeah, I have read a few articles about helping to speed read but never really stuck with anything long enough to see results - lazy I guess :)

LazarX wrote:
I'm not that fast a reader myself, but I can generally read the Lord of the Rings trilogy over a weekend.

It took me months to read those books, both as a 12 year old and again a few years ago. If I could read at that speed I would be all set.

1/5 **

Gorbacz wrote:
And still some think this should be core only.

That was productive. I bet you poke sticks into beehives, too.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
bugleyman wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
And still some think this should be core only.
That was productive. I bet you poke sticks into beehives, too.

I was talking about my gaming group. I swear you have some script that rings out a big alarm in your house every time somebody uses the words "core" and "only" in one sentence over here.

Sadly, automated filters are sometimes stupid :P

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