In my opinion WIZKIDS is price gouging here and Paizo is letting them. WIZKIDS has seen the demand from the pre-orders and based their price off that. $4 is alot. The CAPCOM Street Fighter boosters that are coming out are pretty much the same format as the Pathfinder Mini's and they are only priced at $2.25 each. A set of 6 goes for 12.99.
Paizo fans are getting hosed here and Paizo should have fought for a better price for their customer base.
Dont get me wrong Paizo is still a great company but the price is steep for many fans. I can afford it but others may not be able to. We should look at expanding our game by making our products as affordable as possible to increase the player base ( and customers).
At the very least they defintely should be included as a monthly subscription. (I ve stated this in a previous min's post)
There could be a number of factors at play here.
1. Complexity: I just did a google search for those capcom figures. They all look about average complexity, while some of these seem simpler (the rat), and others much more complex (the gnome). If the average complexity of the line is higher, their costs are higher and prices have to go up.2. Volume: There is a huge static cost associated with the molds. If the Paizo print run isn't as large, they are not differing that cost as much. We don't really know what the relative print sizes will be, but Heroclix is an established brand that can estimate demand accurately. The Pathfinder minis are a new venture, and they are likely producing significantly fewer of them, so the costs are not distributed.
We don't have enough information to really tell how much that affects the price point here.
Do the bases look abnormally big for the minis in the preview pictures?
Specifically the frost giant and troll seem tiny in respect to their bases.
The figs seem rather nice but sorry Paizo team !!
Random pack for figs whose only use is collection and rpg can only result in a big fail !!
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The figs seem rather nice but sorry Paizo team !!
Random pack for figs whose only use is collection and rpg can only result in a big fail !!
Right, that's the only possible result.
Also, Lisa Stevens, who knows more about the gaming and collectables industry than most of us combined will ever forget, is signing off on a venture that is completely doomed to fail.
You may want to re-evaluate.
The figs seem rather nice but sorry Paizo team !!
Random pack for figs whose only use is collection and rpg can only result in a big fail !!
[sarcasm]Yep those obviously never made any money at all for the companies involved. [/sacasm]
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[sarcasm]Yep those obviously never made any money at all for the companies involved. [/sacasm]The figs seem rather nice but sorry Paizo team !!
Random pack for figs whose only use is collection and rpg can only result in a big fail !!
Are you missing his point on purpose, or do you disagree?
The DDM line had a use in the DDM game. They also made good miniatures. HeroClix had a use in the HeroClix game, and they sometimes made good miniatures, too. These are mini's, period.
How are those profits comparable, again?
[sarcasm]Yep those obviously never made any money at all for the companies involved. [/sacasm]The figs seem rather nice but sorry Paizo team !!
Random pack for figs whose only use is collection and rpg can only result in a big fail !!
Are you missing his point on purpose, or do you disagree?
The DDM line had a use in the DDM game. They also made good miniatures. HeroClix had a use in the HeroClix game, and they sometimes made good miniatures, too. These are mini's, period.
How are those profits comparable, again?
Well first off I misread that he meant random packs with out a specific game (which we don't know for sure there won't be, just that it hasn't been announced). Secondly the DDM line sold initially to a large amount of gamers for the minis and not the skirmish game.
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Are you missing his point on purpose, or do you disagree?
I disagree. If Paizo and Wizkids didn't feel that there is room for profitability in this venture, they wouldn't go forward with it. Hard stop.
Do I trust the ethos of two industry leaders over that of a random forum-goer? Yes.
Underestimating Paizo's business acumen and fanbase has happened before. There was another company that did it, somewhere along the way...what was its name...[/headscratch]
Well first off I misread that he meant random packs with out a specific game (which we don't know for sure there won't be, just that it hasn't been announced). Secondly the DDM line sold initially to a large amount of gamers for the minis and not the skirmish game.
Anecdotal I know, but I've known a lot of gamers who purchased DDM miniatures, and zero who played the skirmish game. The primary customer for DDM was always D&D players (and other RPGers.)
Chief Technical Officer
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...maybe a linky to this black dragon I'm hearing about?
You'll find an image of the Black Dragon near the bottom of the press release page. (It's based on Wayne Reynolds' cover art for the Beginner Box.)
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Well first off I misread that he meant random packs with out a specific game (which we don't know for sure there won't be, just that it hasn't been announced). Secondly the DDM line sold initially to a large amount of gamers for the minis and not the skirmish game.Anecdotal I know, but I've known a lot of gamers who purchased DDM miniatures, and zero who played the skirmish game. The primary customer for DDM was always D&D players (and other RPGers.)
To each his own but where I am located at one time the turn out for a minis tournament was just as big as a Magic tournament. (Its a lot of people.)
Brinebeast's suggestion of the side cards that can be purchased later should have no impact on those that just wish to buy the minis. And those who loved the DDM minis game, like myself and many others I know, still get their once loved skirmish game.
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Brinebeast's suggestion of the side cards that can be purchased later should have no impact on those that just wish to buy the minis. And those who loved the DDM minis game, like myself and many others I know, still get their once loved skirmish game.
Smells like an opportunity for a small press PDF! :D
I preordered the begginer box minis set because i liked the look of the miniatures and supported the idea of paizo doing prepainted plastics. Lord knows I dont have the time anymore to do all that painting. And I will take a long hard look at the encounter sets wizkids comes up with. I however wont be touching the random sets. I just wont. I had my fill of random booster packs. And I boxes full of stuff I bought and didnt really want. I would gladly pay a higher price point for what I actually want, then roll the dice and see what I get.
What I won't do is waste my own time. And that is what random sets are, a waste of time. I will have a whole bunch of miniatures I may or may not want, that are now in my collection. I can either sell them off in the secondary market (costing me time) or allow them to bloat up my existing minitatures collection, which costs me time when I initially buy them (opening and sorting the packages) and every time I have to re-sort my miniatures (which happens more often then i'd like). The random set in the long run will cost me hours of my life that could be spent on other things. I am not willing to do that.
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Chief Technical Officer
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While I will purchase these minis, I am still very upset over the random mini distribution model you will use. I worry that the monsters I really need will all be rare... Having a single Gelgulon is not really useful. I need 4 to 6 of them for a decent encounter. Same goes for other outsiders. Not to mention that I also need some of these monsters for use by the players for their summons.
When we propose rarities to WizKids, we do consider things like whether specific critters travel solo or in packs, or are on the Summon Monster lists. That's not the sole determining factor for commonality, of course—WizKids also has to take into account things like size, mold complexity, and the number of paint operations—but it is considered thoroughly.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Or they could use a little brainpower, realize that some minis will obviously need to be stocked more than others and the rest can be ordered. I'm not going to spend 4 dollars for a mini I might not even need because distributors and retailers are lazy.My guess is that the randomness helps the store owners more. They don't need a wall of minis to have these in stock. This saves a lot of shelf space, and helps with stock management. I know a number of stores that would never stock individual minis but will stock these because they have the space.Sorry this was from a few pages back (and a bit off topic but I find it interesting.
Isn't it the same though? I mean with the radomness you are making less uniques and more orcs, etc, and spreading the cost of the molds over all of them. Why would it be different from non random, but orderable. What is the difference nbetween packing the boxes randomly with 1000 dwarves and 10,000 orcs, or putting them up on the website and selling 1000 dwarves and selling 10,000 orcs, if it isn't a matter of predicting the sales? You are still spreading the cost.
(Not trying to be confrontational, just really curious)
Most people don't buy what they don't see. (Many of them wouldn't even know it exists to order.)
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Chief Technical Officer
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I would rather see a handful of figures in each box to eliminate packing waste. Maybe 3-4? But I will try whatever model you decide on and offer my feedback later.
When it comes to smaller sets like Heroes & Monsters, WizKids tells us that this format has done very well. Larger sets, like the Rise of the Runelords set, will come in multi-figure boosters.
Being able to buy two cases and have all of the figs would be cool.
WizKids' goal is that you should be able to get nearly all of a set by buying one case (plus you'll have access to the Black Dragon. You should easily be able to supplement that with singles purchases to pick up the ones you missed.
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Chief Technical Officer
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When we first started selling D&D singles, we made up a bunch of themed "critter packs," but keeping them stocked ended up being too much effort to keep up. While the idea is conceptually great, it's probably just too labor-intensive to justify.Is there a way to tag or link to these mini singles when new modules and AP's are released? It'd be sweet to see what minis I'll need to "properly" (lol) run that adventure prior to purchasing it.
That's a bit challenging, resource-wise. I'd love to see the community use the "Lists" feature to solve that problem!
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Chief Technical Officer
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One question though: With the DDM line, a case gave you four of each common, one or two of each uncommon, and about half of the rares ones. does the Paizo line have a similar packaging strategy?
I don't think that WizKids releases that info, and I don't know what it is, with one exception: a case should give you very nearly one of each rare.
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At Paizocon, the word was that randomization was out.
It seems sad that you are letting Wizkids and retailers to dictate how these are sold and not your loyal fan base. I agree with most people here that gambling with randomized packets may be novel for teenagers, but not for focused Dungeon Masters trying to enhance their game. It is just too expensive. I have never been one to be shy about spending money here at Paizo to support your endeavours, even when I didn't necessarily desire a particular product. Heck, I even bought 8 of the Wizkid Hero packs to share. I am sorry that I cannot help you with this one.
Perhaps you can have a two-tiered approach. Sell random packets to retailers and simply open them up and sell them individually on the Paizo site. Then, perhaps, we can have the best of both worlds.
Thank you guys for all you do.
I am VERY excited by this announcement and cannot wait for more news regarding what minis we'll see in this Heroes and Monsters set.
I am also considering pre-ordering a case (but will wait until the credit card is paid down some more) as I am a BIG fan of dragons and think that black dragon looks INCREDIBLE! (Definitely want one of those). :)
I was on the fence about the beginner's box minis... but I think I'll be getting those (pre-ordering those) very soon as well.
Is it too soon to mention future "wishlists" for minis or miniature themes? (Crucible of Chaos; the three undead sorcerer princes, (at least one) derhii, and a shoggoth. Please, please, please). :)
I am so incredibly glad that Paizo and Wizkids are able to come to this kind of partnership and produce this wonderful product.
[inhales deeply] Ah... love that new plastic miniature smell![/exhales].
Dean
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Chief Technical Officer
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The CAPCOM Street Fighter boosters that are coming out are pretty much the same format as the Pathfinder Mini's and they are only priced at $2.25 each.
That's a discounted price; a more typical street price will be $3.
But yes, Pathfinder Battles will cost a bit more—that's largely because we've really encouraged WizKids to up the ante on sculpt detail and complex paint operations on this line.
At the very least they defintely should be included as a monthly subscription.
They won't be released monthly, but we are considering how to implement something akin a subscription.
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Chief Technical Officer
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At Paizocon, the word was that randomization was out.
At PaizoCon, we were only talking about one set—the non-random Beginner Box Heroes.
Perhaps you can have a two-tiered approach. Sell random packets to retailers and simply open them up and sell them individually on the Paizo site. Then, perhaps, we can have the best of both worlds.
We've already announced we'll be offering singles here at paizo.com, just like we did—and still do—with D&D minis.
Q: Why prepainted plastic miniatures in randomized packs?
A: Prepainted plastic miniatures are expensive to make. Sculpting and painting are costly, and making molds for plastic figures is costlier still. To make all these costs work, you need to spread them out over a large number of miniatures. If these figures were released individually, some would sell better than others, and some--or even many--of them would lose money. Randomizing the miniatures ensures that you sell predictable quantities of each figure, and it also allows you to price them reasonably without losing your shirt. Another benefit of averaging out costs over a large number of figures is that it allows you to spend more money on some miniatures--you can make them larger or more detailed, or add more complicated (and thus more expensive) paint operations than you could otherwise justify. In short, selling more of the common minis allows you to spend more money on the rarer figures.
This is a reason why YOU should figure out how to make it work price wise, NOT how to gouge us so you can have your figure line. At $4 PER FIGURE, I'll just give my money to someone who lets me see my expensive figure. "Aha," you say, "but you'll pay more for it!" The hell I will, after you factor in the boxes I buy with useless crap in them.
Another factor to think about is the brick-and-mortar retailer. It's much easier for a retailer to stock single booster packs than individual packaged minis. Our first set, Heroes & Monsters, contains 40 miniatures. Selling them individually would require a lot of retailer effort to keep them all in stock--and it would also require a lot of space to display those miniatures. And if next year's 60-figure Rise of the Runelords set were released as...
I have worked at game stores since the early 90's, and I can say this for sure. No game store worth it's spit can't carry blister packs, and no game store worth it's spit won't get you a special ordered not on the wall figure in less than a week, two tops.
Besides, since when does Paizo do anything but pay lip service to caring about retailers?
We've already announced we'll be offering singles here at paizo.com, just like we did—and still do—with D&D minis.
Huh, it's like I just said you don't actually care about the FLGS....
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So, if this product line really launches well for you guys and if the company profits handsomely, will this finally give you the seed money to begin construction on that life-like Death Star that's missing from your collection? ;-)
It seems sad that you are letting Wizkids and retailers to dictate how these are sold and not your loyal fan base.
This thread is living proof that the "loyal fan base" you refer to has little business criticizing industry decisions that they apparently know almost nothing about.
I removed a post that was a bit angry.
This is a reason why YOU should figure out how to make it work price wise, NOT how to gouge us so you can have your figure line.
I don't think you know what the word "gouge" means. If you're being charged a price commensurate with the cost of developing, manufacturing, and marketing the item in question, you're not being gouged.
Though I'd love to hear your suggestions on how you would put a pre-painted plastic minis line for Pathfinder together.
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It seems sad that you are letting Wizkids and retailers to dictate how these are sold and not your loyal fan base.This thread is living proof that the "loyal fan base" you refer to has little business criticizing industry decisions that they apparently know almost nothing about.
I'd be interested in comparing our Psychology chops. Meanwhile, aside from sycophancy, please do offer anything you've got to the conversation. Aside from the 'this or nothing' which has already been stated, I'd love to learn more about what makes this true.
Besides, since when does Paizo do anything but pay lip service to caring about retailers?
Store owners like Black Diamond Games complain all that time about how horrible it is to try and sell Pathfinder products. [/sarcasm]
So how planned in advance are the mini lines? Are you taking feedback from players? (I've got about a billion elf archers, but I can't find one black woman that isn't some kind of priestess or an appropriately scaled hound that isn't some kind of wolf or hellbeast).
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I'd be interested in comparing our Psychology chops. Meanwhile, aside from sycophancy, please do offer anything you've got to the conversation. Aside from the 'this or nothing' which has already been stated, I'd love to learn more about what makes this true.
Evidence that that random pre-painted miniatures is the only viable way to market:
1) Wizkids is about the only company which produces PPMs, they must be doing something right.
2) Paizo has wanted to offer this sort of product for years. Reaper and other companies have been aware of this desire and yet to step up to the plate.
3) Paizo has already explained the logistics of miniature making several times in this thread.
But anyone with a brilliant way of making high quality, non-random, platic miniatures are welcome to start their own company and prove everyone wrong. Capitalism is awesome that way.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is a reason why YOU should figure out how to make it work price wise, NOT how to gouge us so you can have your figure line.I don't think you know what the word "gouge" means. If you're being charged a price commensurate with the cost of developing, manufacturing, and marketing the item in question, you're not being gouged.
Though I'd love to hear your suggestions on how you would put a pre-painted plastic minis line for Pathfinder together.
Now Scott, didn't you know? Gouge means "more than I want to pay."
*rolls eyes*
So how planned in advance are the mini lines? Are you taking feedback from players? (I've got about a billion elf archers, but I can't find one black woman that isn't some kind of priestess or an appropriately scaled hound that isn't some kind of wolf or hellbeast).
The first set is almost certainly finalized. The second set is probably almost finalized.
On the other hand, that sounds like a perfect topic for a new thread.
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In my opinion WIZKIDS is price gouging here and Paizo is letting them. WIZKIDS has seen the demand from the pre-orders and based their price off that. $4 is alot. The CAPCOM Street Fighter boosters that are coming out are pretty much the same format as the Pathfinder Mini's and they are only priced at $2.25 each. A set of 6 goes for 12.99.
Paizo fans are getting hosed here and Paizo should have fought for a better price for their customer base.
Dont get me wrong Paizo is still a great company but the price is steep for many fans. I can afford it but others may not be able to. We should look at expanding our game by making our products as affordable as possible to increase the player base ( and customers).
At the very least they defintely should be included as a monthly subscription. (I ve stated this in a previous min's post)
In my opinion, some people have no perspective as to the actual cost of manufacturing things. When I say "some people", I really mean to say most people. See, people assign seat-of-the-pants price/value estimates based on a couple things.
The first factor people generally use is "what have I paid in the past for a similar item".
The second factor is "what portion of my available cash does this represent relative to what I get?"
Basically neither are useful, and both will mislead. The first leads (for instance) to comparison of price between these minis and WotC's sets. Sorry, but economy of scale is completely different here. I strongly expect that WizKids will sell in the general realm of one third WotC's sales (per unique model). Maybe one tenth, maybe half, but ultimately we all know the exposure for this product will very likely be smaller than that of Wizard's releases. As has been mention repeatedly, there are fixed setup costs which are distributed over mass production. Less mass, less spread of costs, higher price. So discard the comparison test. It's not useful.
In the second instance, personal income is relative while product pricing is not. Someone with more disposable cash isn't going to balk at a higher price than someone with less disposable cash. While $4 for a mini may seem to some like an unjustifiable luxury (especially when they want [far] more than one), to others at that price the Paizo/WizKids minis are a must-have. The point is that the wallet's emotional impact again hasn't anything to do with the proper price of the product.
Allegations of gouging are based on what? A comparison to a different product line that likely has different licensing rates, reportedly has different quality-control, and has an unknown financial model is... vague. We don't know if - for instance - the CAPCOM products are perhaps subsidized... a lost-leader. We just don't know.
So hey, a little more faith in Paizo's ability to choose a business partner might be called for since while the knee-jerk "I don't want to pay that" reaction is entirely understandable, it's not an educated reaction.
Final words: I don't know the actual costs/mark-up any more than you. I just refuse to assume that a} WizKids are thieves and b} Paizo didn't notice or care.
We as a community complain WAY TOO MUCH about pretty much everything.
This thread is living proof that the "loyal fan base" you refer to has little business criticizing industry decisions that they apparently know almost nothing about.SOME loyal fans. Otherwise, +1.
Thus, the "loyal fan base" that he refers to (presumably, the part that agrees with him).
I'd be interested in comparing our Psychology chops.It seems sad that you are letting Wizkids and retailers to dictate how these are sold and not your loyal fan base.This thread is living proof that the "loyal fan base" you refer to has little business criticizing industry decisions that they apparently know almost nothing about.
I'd rather not.
Meanwhile, aside from sycophancy, please do offer anything you've got to the conversation. Aside from the 'this or nothing' which has already been stated, I'd love to learn more about what makes this true.
I'm not going to repeat what's already been explained in this thread a number of times. The only way to produce a minis line of the sort that Paizo wants (pre-painted plastic, wide range of figures, within your average gamer's budget) is to go the random, varying rarities route.
This is a reason why YOU should figure out how to make it work price wise, NOT how to gouge us so you can have your figure line.I don't think you know what the word "gouge" means. If you're being charged a price commensurate with the cost of developing, manufacturing, and marketing the item in question, you're not being gouged.
Though I'd love to hear your suggestions on how you would put a pre-painted plastic minis line for Pathfinder together.
Now Scott, didn't you know? Gouge means "more than I want to pay."
*rolls eyes*
Oh man, if I'd only known this back when I was taking my Econ courses. It all makes sense now!
In my opinion, some people have no perspective as to the actual cost of manufacturing things. When I say "some people", I really mean to say most people. See, people assign seat-of-the-pants price/value estimates based on a couple things.
The first factor people generally use is "what have I paid in the past for a similar item".
The second factor is "what portion of my available cash does this represent relative to what I get?"Basically neither are useful, and both will mislead. The first leads (for instance) to comparison of price between these minis and WotC's sets. Sorry, but economy of scale is completely different here. I strongly expect that WizKids will sell in the general realm of one third WotC's sales (per unique model). Maybe one tenth, maybe half, but ultimately we all know the exposure for this product will very likely be smaller than that of Wizard's releases. As has been mention repeatedly, there are fixed setup costs which are distributed over mass production. Less mass, less spread of costs, higher price. So discard the comparison test. It's not useful.
In the second instance, personal income is relative while product pricing is not. Someone with more disposable cash isn't going to balk at a higher price than someone with less disposable cash. While $4 for a mini may seem to some like an unjustifiable luxury (especially when they want [far] more than one), to others at that price the Paizo/WizKids minis are a must-have. The point is that the wallet's emotional impact again hasn't anything to do with the proper price of the product.
Allegations of gouging are based on what? A comparison to a different product line that likely has different licensing rates, reportedly has different quality-control, and has an unknown financial model is... vague. We don't know if - for instance - the CAPCOM products are perhaps subsidized... a lost-leader. We just don't know.
So hey, a little more faith in Paizo's ability to choose a business partner might be called for since while the knee-jerk "I don't want to pay that" reaction is entirely understandable, it's not an educated reaction.
Final words: I don't know the actual costs/mark-up any more than you. I just refuse to assume that a} WizKids are thieves and b} Paizo didn't notice or care.
We as a community complain WAY TOO MUCH about pretty much everything.
This is a fine post. All you other posts should take heed. Be more like this post. You will go far.
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I guess I'm a weird exception. I love everything pathfinder that paizo produces, I'll likely have 3 cases pre-ordered by the time December arrives. I'm already to the point in my minis collection I really don't need anymore, but frankly since I want paizo to succeed in all their ventures I'm buying them, cause hell you never know if they'll make something I may want out of this line. Point is if randomization is the price I have to pay to have the line I'm willing to pay it. Better randomized minis then NO MINIS AT ALL.
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Chief Technical Officer
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So how planned in advance are the mini lines? Are you taking feedback from players? (I've got about a billion elf archers, but I can't find one black woman that isn't some kind of priestess or an appropriately scaled hound that isn't some kind of wolf or hellbeast).The first set is almost certainly finalized. The second set is probably almost finalized.
Yep.
I will note that one of those two sets includes a heavily armed and armored black woman.
So how planned in advance are the mini lines? Are you taking feedback from players? (I've got about a billion elf archers, but I can't find one black woman that isn't some kind of priestess or an appropriately scaled hound that isn't some kind of wolf or hellbeast).The first set is almost certainly finalized. The second set is probably almost finalized.Yep.
I will note that one of those two sets includes a heavily armed and armored black woman.
I hope her helmet's off....