I have to build a lvl 7 character for my GM. And I was thinking of making a Ranger(4)/Monk(3)
If i picked the TWF archetype for the ranger could the monks unarmed attacks count as a off-hand weapon if I have a sword in the Main Hand?
TWF?
TWF?
Two Weapon Fighting
EDIT: Deleted cause I was wrong. Putting the right stuff in.
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
So this can go one of two ways when talking about a monk who is wielding a sword in one hand.
Either it is saying that the unarmed strike HAS to be the main-hand and the sword HAS to be the off hand (which makes no sense and is clearly wrong) or it is saying that both receive full STR benefits.
That's the way to go.
If you TWF with a sword in one hand and your fist (or other body part) in your other "hand" then you get full STR to damage on both. Also, if you power attack, you get the full +2/-1 on both rather than the off-hand getting +1/-1.
Note, however, that you do not get to use your monk levels as your full BAB when doing a full-attack routine as you would when using flurry. That is a flurry-only ability.
Or you could use a Temple Sword in one hand. It's identical numerically to a long sword (d8 damage, 19-20/X2 crit), except it is also a monk weapon so you can flurry with it and it has the trip special quality.
That way, you will get full benefit of your monk levels towards BAB of a full-attack, you can flurry without the TWF feats (though the ranger bonus feats will kinda force you into them anyways...), and you are proficient in the sword since you have monk levels.
I have to build a lvl 7 character for my GM. And I was thinking of making a Ranger(4)/Monk(3)
If i picked the TWF archetype for the ranger could the monks unarmed attacks count as a off-hand weapon if I have a sword in the Main Hand?
Yes. The offhand punch is an offhand attack, or the primary if you want. No need to get more complicated than that. You don't add full strength on an off hand attack regardless of what the monk ability says. I know it's confusing but that's the way it is.
EDIT: in fact, if you wanted to read it that strict you'd jsut have to make the punch(kick whatever) the primary attack and the sword the off hand attack since the punch would be forbidden to be offhand. And there's jsut no sense in it being that dumb, so it's best to play it straight like the punch is just another weapon.
Or you could use a Temple Sword in one hand. It's identical numerically to a long sword (d8 damage, 19-20/X2 crit), except it is also a monk weapon so you can flurry with it and it has the trip special quality.
That way, you will get full benefit of your monk levels towards BAB of a full-attack, you can flurry without the TWF feats (though the ranger bonus feats will kinda force you into them anyways...), and you are proficient in the sword since you have monk levels.
I don't know why you're taking ranger levels, but in general this idea (the temple sword) is far superior to multiclassing the two.
Also, if you power attack, you get the full +2/-1 on both rather than the off-hand getting +1/-1.
I don't understand the reasoning behind this.
Or you could use a Temple Sword in one hand. It's identical numerically to a long sword (d8 damage, 19-20/X2 crit), except it is also a monk weapon so you can flurry with it and it has the trip special quality.
That way, you will get full benefit of your monk levels towards BAB of a full-attack, you can flurry without the TWF feats (though the ranger bonus feats will kinda force you into them anyways...), and you are proficient in the sword since you have monk levels.
I don't know why you're taking ranger levels, but in general this idea (the temple sword) is far superior to multiclassing the two.
I don't understand the reasoning behind this.Also, if you power attack, you get the full +2/-1 on both rather than the off-hand getting +1/-1.
Monks don't have offhands. That's one of the things about the class. When they flurry, they have no offhand attack. They add full strength to both the "main hand" and the "off hand" hit.
Typically, power attack gives you +2 damage for every -1 to hit (with the total to hit penalty keyed off your BAB; another reason getting full BAB is good... you can take better advantage of power attack) with your main hand, and +1 damage for every -1 to hit with your off hand.
Since monks have no off hand, they get +2 damage for every -1 to hit with BOTH hands.
I have to build a lvl 7 character for my GM. And I was thinking of making a Ranger(4)/Monk(3)
If i picked the TWF archetype for the ranger could the monks unarmed attacks count as a off-hand weapon if I have a sword in the Main Hand?
Yes. The offhand punch is an offhand attack, or the primary if you want. No need to get more complicated than that. You don't add full strength on an off hand attack regardless of what the monk ability says. I know it's confusing but that's the way it is.
EDIT: in fact, if you wanted to read it that strict you'd jsut have to make the punch(kick whatever) the primary attack and the sword the off hand attack since the punch would be forbidden to be offhand. And there's jsut no sense in it being that dumb, so it's best to play it straight like the punch is just another weapon.
And you do add full strength to the off hand BECAUSE that's what the monk ability says. It's not confusing. Its what the ability says.
And you do add full strength to the off hand BECAUSE that's what the monk ability says. It's not confusing. Its what the ability says.I have to build a lvl 7 character for my GM. And I was thinking of making a Ranger(4)/Monk(3)
If i picked the TWF archetype for the ranger could the monks unarmed attacks count as a off-hand weapon if I have a sword in the Main Hand?
Yes. The offhand punch is an offhand attack, or the primary if you want. No need to get more complicated than that. You don't add full strength on an off hand attack regardless of what the monk ability says. I know it's confusing but that's the way it is.
EDIT: in fact, if you wanted to read it that strict you'd jsut have to make the punch(kick whatever) the primary attack and the sword the off hand attack since the punch would be forbidden to be offhand. And there's jsut no sense in it being that dumb, so it's best to play it straight like the punch is just another weapon.
Its the 3.5 FAQ but it's still relevant.
The description of the flurry of blows ability says
there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?
Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the PH) and the monk adds only half her
Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed
strike hits.
And you do add full strength to the off hand BECAUSE that's what the monk ability says. It's not confusing. Its what the ability says.I have to build a lvl 7 character for my GM. And I was thinking of making a Ranger(4)/Monk(3)
If i picked the TWF archetype for the ranger could the monks unarmed attacks count as a off-hand weapon if I have a sword in the Main Hand?
Yes. The offhand punch is an offhand attack, or the primary if you want. No need to get more complicated than that. You don't add full strength on an off hand attack regardless of what the monk ability says. I know it's confusing but that's the way it is.
EDIT: in fact, if you wanted to read it that strict you'd jsut have to make the punch(kick whatever) the primary attack and the sword the off hand attack since the punch would be forbidden to be offhand. And there's jsut no sense in it being that dumb, so it's best to play it straight like the punch is just another weapon.
Its the 3.5 FAQ but it's still relevant.
...
The description of the flurry of blows ability says
there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?
Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from
No, it's not really relevant, because that's the 3.5 FAQ and this is Pathfinder. The text now appears in both Flurry and Unarmed Strike:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
So when he flurries, all attacks are at full STR, regardless of if they are 1-handed or 2-handed, main hand or off hand.
And then:
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Bolding mine.
All unarmed strikes, regardless of circumstance, get full Strength bonus to damage rolls so long as you have 1 level of monk.
...And you do add full strength to the off hand BECAUSE that's what the monk ability says. It's not confusing. Its what the ability says.I have to build a lvl 7 character for my GM. And I was thinking of making a Ranger(4)/Monk(3)
If i picked the TWF archetype for the ranger could the monks unarmed attacks count as a off-hand weapon if I have a sword in the Main Hand?
Yes. The offhand punch is an offhand attack, or the primary if you want. No need to get more complicated than that. You don't add full strength on an off hand attack regardless of what the monk ability says. I know it's confusing but that's the way it is.
EDIT: in fact, if you wanted to read it that strict you'd jsut have to make the punch(kick whatever) the primary attack and the sword the off hand attack since the punch would be forbidden to be offhand. And there's jsut no sense in it being that dumb, so it's best to play it straight like the punch is just another weapon.
Its the 3.5 FAQ but it's still relevant.
The description of the flurry of blows ability says
there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?
Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack
Flurrying has nothing to do with any of this, but the other point you bring up is pretty interesting, I'll have to look more into it..
Flurrying has nothing to do with any of this, but the other point you bring up is pretty interesting, I'll have to look more into it..
What flurrying has to do with it is that flurrying has changed since 3.5, getting rid of the necessity to make monk's have off-hand attacks.
Flurry now works off the off-hand attack mechanics, but they are all at full damage, so off-hands deal full damage. It used to be that flurry just gave you extra attacks, leaving your off-hand attacks free. A 3.5 monk could take TWF and get ANOTHER attack when they flurried, but they did so at the cost of making everything go down another -2 to hit, and the extra attack was getting 1/2 Str and 1/2 PA. Now that Flurry is reworked, there is no need for that anymore. In fact, the reworking of Flurry necessitates the changing of that to what it is now: off-hand attacks with unarmed strikes count as main-hand attacks for the purposes of STR bonus to damage.
To the OP`s question, it seems pretty clear there isn`t any problem Flurrying with a Monk Sword and UAS as the `off-hand` (extra attack that doesn`t suffer penalties of off-hand)... You don`t need to be a Monk to do that either, UAS is a Light Weapon for everybody, and you don`t need to be a 2WF Ranger to Flurry with both a Monk sword and UAS.
Disregarding the literal wording of `there is no such thing as an off-hand for a Monk` (which I don`t think is meant to be taken literally, since the extra attack is gained `as if two weapon fighting` which grants an off-hand attack), the Monk Flurry pretty clearly counts as if the Monk was using 2WF. With that in mind, it seems reasonable to me that a Monk/Ranger(2WF style) could take Ranger Combat Style Feats. The OP didn`t clarify that, but that seems like what they would be trying to do with such a combination.
The only problem that is what the 2WF Combat Style lets you choose at different levels.
For the first Combat Style Feat, you can choose: Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice are superfluous if you are a Monk, and Improved Shield Bash is useless since you lose WIS bonus to AC, movement bonus, and Flurry of Blows if you hold a Shield... Leaving Quickdraw as a Bonus Feat.
If Quickdraw isn`t your thing, this multi-class really only seems beneficial/synergistic if you could convince the GM to allow taking Two-Weapon Defense (a 6th level Ranger option) at the 2nd level of Ranger (it doesn`t actually have any high level pre-reqs as a Feat). Two-Weapon Rend is a 11th level Ranger Bonus Feat, but does have high Pre-Reqs... If you are happy with Quickdraw or CAN and want to take 2 Weapon Defense, I can see a 2 level or so dip in Ranger as being useful. That isn`t the most powerful approach by any means, but at least you could be making use of all the class features.
Otherwise, I would probably just recommend going full Monk and taking Feats like Skill Focus: Survival/Tracking if that`s what you want out of Ranger... Favored Class bonus can also go to Skills to enable that, along with Knowledge:Nature, Handle Animal, etc. If you just want to be a `nature Monk` I think that`s possible without multi-classing with Ranger... You should have a good WIS which helps with most of those skills.
Flurrying has nothing to do with any of this, but the other point you bring up is pretty interesting, I'll have to look more into it..What flurrying has to do with it is that flurrying has changed since 3.5, getting rid of the necessity to make monk's have off-hand attacks.
Flurry now works off the off-hand attack mechanics, but they are all at full damage, so off-hands deal full damage. It used to be that flurry just gave you extra attacks, leaving your off-hand attacks free. A 3.5 monk could take TWF and get ANOTHER attack when they flurried, but they did so at the cost of making everything go down another -2 to hit, and the extra attack was getting 1/2 Str and 1/2 PA. Now that Flurry is reworked, there is no need for that anymore. In fact, the reworking of Flurry necessitates the changing of that to what it is now: off-hand attacks with unarmed strikes count as main-hand attacks for the purposes of STR bonus to damage.
So the unarmed strike wording has not changed since 3.5, they both state the line about no such thing as an offhand US and that they add full strength. Therefore, I'm still pretty sure the RAI is that monks can add full strength even when headbutting as opposed to punching and not that they can TWF with no penalties. If you wanna add full strength and get extra attacks, then flurry. That's kinda the point.