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Hi
While thinking about two weapon pistols and reloading I came across a very weird rules bit that could be exploited, or is it meant to be?
While using a bow you can draw ammunition as a free action, thus multiple shots per rounds, so the important part is a free action between iterative attacks is allowed.
What stops a character to two-weapon wield the same one handed weapon? After his attack with his primary hand he "draws" the weapon as a free action (possibly with quickdraw) from the other hand.
I consider this an exploit because you only need to pay for 1 weapon, you always have a free hand (snatch arrows or new things from UC), you can reload the pistol without trouble.
Other than saying that switching hands isn't somehow a free action, I can't see why this isn't possible.
On a side note: feats like two weapon rend and double slice aren't formulated to be melee exclusive. However RaI is quite clear that it won't add your full STR modifier to the second hand while firing pistols.
Please discuss
Only thing i see wrong is that you wouldn't at str at all since they are ranged weapons. However as a DM i would say no on the basis of the fact its a clear exploit of using one weapon in 2hs.
thanks Talonhawke
I hope that the ranger gets new fighting styles in the UC, because the current two-weapon style only offers those 2 feats that are clearly not meant for ranged.
However by RAW, two-weapon rend would also work on ranged. (Slice is corner case because the "normal" is written there with half-str)
Perhaps this is worthwile for an errata, not that most GM's won't recognize this as an exploit.
Using multiple weapons in the fashion described (on after the other in one hand) does NOT suffer duel-wielding penalties UNLESS you try to get additional attacks above and beyond your normal iterative attacks.
IF IT DID, then knife throwers and javelin hurlers everywhere would be laughably piss poor as you would be saddled with TWF penalties for throwing a volley via quick draw (which doesn't make much sense).
Think the point is to have the full range of attacks by tossing the gun back and forth as you reload it.
what I meant was that you use all your attacks including additional ones from (greater) two-weapon fighting, thus suffering the penalties.
You use all of your normal attacks with the weapon, switch, and then use the same weapon for all attacks granted by two-weapon fighting.
Ravingdork, I don't really understand your second sentence. If it is a reply to the idea of prolonging the "switch hand" abuse, then it doesn't really apply because knife throwers draw their weapons from "unattended" positions. I meant making it a longer action for switching hands only, as you have to use both hands, one that opens, one that takes.
Also you speak of weapons, I only speak about one, perhaps you misunderstood something.
EDIT: actually you only need to switch once, after all your mainhand attacks have been made.
You can't duel wield with a single weapon simply by switching hands. The rules are clear in that you have to make all of your attacks from highest attack bonus to lowest.
That means you would attack with your primary, then your off-hand, primary again, off-hand again, etc.
You can't go primary, primary, primary, switch, off-hand, off-hand.
If that's not what you meant then I am seriously confused.
sorry for being unclear and thanks for that highest to lowest bit, I didn't know that.
so the question is:
what is stopping you from
primary
free switch hands (free reload)
secondary
free switch hands (free reload)
primary
...
...
until you have made all your attacks (two-weapon fighting included of course).
I hope this makes it clear.
sorry for being unclear and thanks for that highest to lowest bit, I didn't know that.
so the question is:
what is stopping you fromprimary
free switch hands (free reload)
secondary
free switch hands (free reload)
primary
...
...
until you have made all your attacks (two-weapon fighting included of course).I hope this makes it clear.
The only thing stopping it is the fact that you need two-weapons to wield two weapons.
If you don't have more than one weapon, you don't get bonus attacks for TWF. Simple as that.
free switch hands (free reload)
Why do you get a free reload?
@Eridan, would have been from rapid reload, which most people take when wielding pistols
@Ravingdork thanks, I forgot the extra attack has to be done with that weapon. I assumed it had to be done with that hand, no matter what weapon it wields in the meantime.
Common sense. That's what's stopping this. At least if the GM isn't a mindless robot (which might be the case in computer games and some role playing groups, but usually not in most groups)
At the table, the attacks might be resolved one at a time, one hand at a time (most people roll the primary hand attacks, and then the secondary ones), but they happen more or less simultaneously in the game world. Combatants with two weapons don't spend the first three seconds fighting with the right hand and then the second three seconds with the left (or vice versa). The point is that you use both weapons more or less at the same time (which is one of the reasons two-weapon fighting carries a penalty).
The reason that such "exploits" aren't written out in the rules is that the average GM will hit you over the head with his Stick of Pain if you ask to use them. That and the fact that if everything that can easily explained away with common sense would be written down in the book, the book would be ten thousand pages long. That's 10000 pages. Ten kilopages.
Note that during the Core Rules beta testing they had a feat that allowed this. They came to their senses. ;-P