That`s something I`ve repeatedly fished for confirmation on, without success :-)
There were quite a few more Tricks accessing specific Talents, so it`s more than just 1 + 1 advanced,
but that would differentiate the Ninja more and prevent them from just being Rogue+ (if it is the case).
You are correct, there are some cross over talents/tricks. But those are ones that generally make sense to cross over.
The power of a rogue is his versatility. The power of a ninja is his combat prowess. They aren't the same.
I have 2 players in my game now, one is running a ninja and one is running a rogue, and they are vastly different and fill different niches in the game.
If someone with the PDF could confirm....Is there still the restriction on Ninja Tricks, that you can only take it once unless it otherwise says so?
(obviously, there is forgotten trick...but it seems that the cost of forgotten trick has risen drastically, which should balance it)
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Ninja Tricks can only be taken once unless otherwise stated.
However.
The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.
The ninja can select a rogue talent from the list of Advanced Talents in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select improved evasion unless she has evasion (either as a class feature or as a ninja master trick).
Note: The second one is not a Master Trick, it is a rule about Master Tricks.
The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.
Whoa, that is a MAJOR change then....one that I don't think I would allow personally. Yes, if the ninja can just keep taking the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick as much as he wants, then that is wrong....
Whoa, that is a MAJOR change then....one that I don't think I would allow personally. Yes, if the ninja can just keep taking the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick as much as he wants, then that is wrong....The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja can select this talent multiple times.
He can only take an advanced Rogue talent once, though.
All in all, the Rogue is by far the more versatile class, as he has access to all the archetypes, including the ( to me ) fantastic Knifefighter. The Ninja has its own flavor and works differently enough to be its own class. Its power level is a tad higher than the Rogue, though, because of the ability to take Improved Invisibility at level 10.
Just gonna post it again because it bears repeating and no one has mentioned this point.
The quigong monk has multiple ability choices for thier ki pool that the vanilla monk cant touch, same thing as the ninja vs rouge talents except the quigong got praise while the ninja is shunned.
Just gonna post it again because it bears repeating and no one has mentioned this point.
The quigong monk has multiple ability choices for thier ki pool that the vanilla monk cant touch, same thing as the ninja vs rouge talents except the quigong got praise while the ninja is shunned.
And you keep missing the point. It is not the same thing. The monk archetype can not take the abilities of a normal monk, it trades those for a list of ablilites. The Ninja however does not swap abilities, it gets all the rogue talents + all of its own, that are really just rogue talents Rogues can't have. It simply has its cake and the rouges cake as well.
It is like a barb archetype getting all new and more powerful rage powers no other barb can have but it can take all the new ones and all the normal ones.
And you keep missing the point. It is not the same thing. The monk archetype can not take the abilities of a normal monk, it trades those for a list of ablilites. The Ninja however does not swap abilities, it gets all the rogue talents + all of its own, that are really just rogue talents Rogues can't have. It simply has its cake and the rouges cake as well.
It is like a barb archetype getting all new and more powerful rage powers no other barb can have but it can take all the new ones and all the normal ones.
Read it again, The quigong monk can take anything the regular monk can plus all his new more powerful stuff. The ninja is actually worse in that it can only take one rogue talent.
And you keep missing the point. It is not the same thing. The monk archetype can not take the abilities of a normal monk, it trades those for a list of ablilites. The Ninja however does not swap abilities, it gets all the rogue talents + all of its own, that are really just rogue talents Rogues can't have. It simply has its cake and the rouges cake as well.
It is like a barb archetype getting all new and more powerful rage powers no other barb can have but it can take all the new ones and all the normal ones.
It also works the other way, Rogues get the ability to take all the ninja tricks they want as well so it works both ways, rogues even get to use wis for their ki pool. so where does the problem stem from? the name?
Edit: it has been stated that both rogue and ninja can dip into the other classes talent pool as much as they both want. But ninja's do not have access to an extra trick feat from what i understand.
He can only take an advanced Rogue talent once, though.
All in all, the Rogue is by far the more versatile class, as he has access to all the archetypes, including the ( to me ) fantastic Knifefighter. The Ninja has its own flavor and works differently enough to be its own class. Its power level is a tad higher than the Rogue, though, because of the ability to take Improved Invisibility at level 10.
All in all, the Rogue is by far the more versatile class, as he has access to all the archetypes?
You are one of the people that really made me changed my mind on the ninja during the play test debate. Yes, you made me see the ninja wasn't that über. The rogue needed a boost, and the ninja needed a small nerf.The rogue got a boost, and the ninja got small nerf.
But more versatile and access to archetypes.? This argument doesn't hold much water.
More versatile class? How? She got evasion?
And as for she has "access to all the archetypes"? Here we come to Paizo's BIG BIG flaw. They can't bother fixing the core class so lets feed the poepople some archetypes.
The core rogue is weaker and hardly more versatile than the ninja.
The core bard is still a problem, so is the core fighter (and perhaps the core monk too). The Cleric is still boring and the cloth cleric is a disaster, cure spells suck at higher levels, and 7th level cleric spells more or less suckstill . UM didn't fix that.
Same goes with races. APG fixed the half elf but the Gnome and Half (p)ork still suck.
The rogue talents in the APG wasn't much compared to the barbariasn new rage powers. True we got Gang up - nice feat, but the rogue needs it 13 and two feats. Need I say I don't like Combat Expertise?
I'm one of the people that think 3/4 BAB classes shouldn't be as powerful as full BAB classes, but saying the rogue is fine becasue it's more versatil isn't true.
I like the ninja and the rogue is no disaster, but the ninja is more powerful than the rogue. Agree, no big deal, but it bothers be paizo can't fix stuff that needs fixing and instead bloat us with archetypes and stuff like UM.
The core bard is still a problem, so is the core fighter (and perhaps the core monk too).
I'm sorry sir, but I do believe this is sillyness.
Core fighter is totally valid, and arguably as good or better all around than most or all of its archetypes.
Core Bard is also rock solid. It has good specialist options, but for being a skill-versatile support monster, its still pretty much the go-to choice.
But more versatile and access to archetypes.? This argument doesn't hold much water.
More versatile class? How? She got evasion?And as for she has "access to all the archetypes"? Here we come to Paizo's BIG BIG flaw. They can't bother fixing the core class so lets feed the poepople some archetypes.
I actually laid out in my last post that the access to all those archetypes is why the core Rogue is more versatile than the Ninja. The Ninja is... the Ninja. It can never be anything else. But the Rogue has many options to specialize into a certain direction with his archetypes.
You don't need to accept that as "being more versatile", but that is what my opinion tells me.
Read it again, The quigong monk can take anything the regular monk can plus all his new more powerful stuff.
This is simply Incorrect.
Ki Power: A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
They give up 11 class abilities {making if a far larger change then the ninja is from the rogue} They can not have both, They have the new powers or the old, not both.
The ninja gets most of the rogue talents. I only have the beta but 9 of the "Ninja tricks" are rogue talents, 6 are level 1 spells so minor/major magic but better.
The Ninja has very, very few of its own. Its an archetype that has taken the best rogue talents, then added better talents then denied them to the rogue.
The ninja gives up trap finding and trap sense and can get evasion later anyhow. Paizo really screwed the pooch on this one
Screwed or not, at least is functional.
So was the rogue, and guess what it still is.
The core bard is still a problem, so is the core fighter (and perhaps the core monk too).I'm sorry sir, but I do believe this is sillyness.
Core fighter is totally valid, and arguably as good or better all around than most or all of its archetypes.
Core Bard is also rock solid. It has good specialist options, but for being a skill-versatile support monster, its still pretty much the go-to choice.
I will second that, the core fighter is better than most if not all of the fighter archetypes (i don't own UC yet so i am talking about the other archetypes), about the core bard i am not so sure and i can't say because i have never played a bard and the only archetype i have read with some attention is the arcane duelist.
about the core bard i am not so sure and i can't say because i have never played a bard and the only archetype i have read with some attention is the arcane duelist.
The Bard is rock solid.
So was the rogue, and guess what it still is.
Dunno. In my last campaign, the only character out of.. 15? my players played which took a level in a PrC was the rogue.
And for something, he pointed out, he expected a stealthy class could do by itself (HiPS).
Rogue had to see a lot of stuff good for him go in 3 PrCs or elsewhere. I wait to see UC and take my decision. But if there is a problem, is not the Ninja. Is the base Rogue.
If something sucks, you cannot want designer adapt to that. Is better they create something more functional and, ideally, fix the bad stuff.
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This is simply Incorrect.
Ki Power: A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.They give up 11 class abilities {making if a far larger change then the ninja is from the rogue} They can not have both, They have the new powers or the old, not both.
The ninja gets most of the rogue talents. I only have the beta but 9 of the "Ninja tricks" are rogue talents, 6 are level 1 spells so minor/major magic but better.
The Ninja has very, very few of its own. Its an archetype that has taken the best rogue talents, then added better talents then denied them to the rogue.
The ninja gives up trap finding and trap sense and can get evasion later anyhow. Paizo really screwed the pooch on this one
So as a quigogn monk you can either take the regular monk ability or the special quigong ones.
As a ninja you can either spend your tricks on rogue talents or the special ninja ones.
Funny how those sentences are interchangeable.
No the issue is Ninja tricks, if the rogue was soooooooooooooo underpowered before it is now useless. As the Ninja can do anything it could do but more and better. All because of stolen talents and a un called for wall of ok/ super good talents rogues can not take.
Ok i have to ask what does HIPS mean?
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So as a quigogn monk you can either take the regular monk ability or the special quigong ones.
No, it gives up those ablitles it can not have those 11. They are replaced. You take all or nothing you can not cherry pick which ones you keep and loose. No archetype can
Well except the ninja
Ok i have to ask what does HIPS mean?
Hide in plain sight
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So as a quigogn monk you can either take the regular monk ability or the special quigong ones.No, it gives up those ablitles it can not have those 11. They are replaced. You take all or nothing you can not cherry pick which ones you keep and loose. No archetype can
Well except the ninja
Yes you can, in the list of quigong ability choices are all the abilities you gave up, you can grab abundant step, diamond body, etc.
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So as a quigogn monk you can either take the regular monk ability or the special quigong ones.No, it gives up those ablitles it can not have those 11. They are replaced. You take all or nothing you can not cherry pick which ones you keep and loose. No archetype can
Well except the ninja
The quigong monk can.
Everytime it gives up a power he has a choice of taking another power or keeping the one he originally has.
Yes you can, in the list of quigong ability choices are all the abilities you gave up, you can grab abundant step, diamond body, etc.[
So as a quigogn monk you can either take the regular monk ability or the special quigong ones.No, it gives up those ablitles it can not have those 11. They are replaced. You take all or nothing you can not cherry pick which ones you keep and loose. No archetype can
Well except the ninja
No. You can not
Ok i have to ask what does HIPS mean?Hide in plain sight
Thank you very much.
Read it again, The quigong monk can take anything the regular monk can plus all his new more powerful stuff.
This is simply Incorrect.
They give up 11 class abilities {making if a far larger change then the ninja is from the rogue} They can not have both, They have the new powers or the old, not both.
Ki Power: A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities: slow fall (4th), high jump (5th), wholeness of body (7th), diamond body (11th), abundant step (12th), diamond soul (13th), quivering palm (15th), timeless body (17th), tongue of the sun and moon (17th), empty body (19th), and perfect self (20th). This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power.
CAN select. It doesn't say "A quinggong selects ki powers in place of the following monk class abilities." They are not required to switch out those abilities, they are just given the option to.
No, if they choose the archetype they have to pick one at every level listed. With archetypes you do not get the option of skipping a level it replaced.
No, if they choose the archetype they have to pick one at every level listed. With archetypes you do not get the option of skipping a level it replaced.
Can means able to do so, not required to do so.
@seekerofshadowlight
Please either drop that argument or go and read the whole archetype, go and take a close and careful look at the list of powers a quingong monk can take.
4th-Level Ki Powers
Acrobatic Steps (1 ki point)
Augury (1 ki point)
Barkskin (self only, 1 ki point)
Deny Death [UM], † (0 ki points)
Feather step [APG] (self only, 1 ki point)
Hydraulic push [APG] (1 ki point)
Ki arrow [UM] (1 ki point)
Ki Stand [UM], † (0 ki points)
Message (1 ki point)
Power Attack (1 ki point)
Quick Draw (1 ki point)
Scorching ray (2 ki points)
Throw Anything (1 ki point)
True strike (self only, 1 ki point)
6th-Level Ki Powers
Cloak of winds [APG] (self only, 2 ki points)
Gaseous form (self only, 1 ki point)
Heroic Recovery [APG], † (1 ki point)
High jump (monk ability, 1 ki point)
Hydraulic torrent [APG] (2 ki points)
Remove disease (2 ki points)
Sidestep [APG], † (1 ki point)
Snatch Arrows† (1 ki point)
Spring Attack (1 ki point)
8th-Level Ki Powers
Dragon’s breath [APG] (2 ki points)
Gliding Steps [UM], † (1 ki point)
Neutralize poison (3 ki points)
Poison (2 ki points)
Restoration (self only, 2 ki points)
Share memory [UM] (0 ki points)
Silk to steel [UM] (1 ki point)
Spider Step [APG] (1 ki point)
Whirlwind Attack (2 ki points)
Wholeness of body (monk ability, level 7, 2 ki points)
10th-Level Ki Powers
Discordant blast [APG] (2 ki points)
Greater Bull Rush (2 ki points)
Greater Disarm (2 ki points)
Greater Feint (2 ki points)
Greater Sunder (2 ki points)
Improved Blind-Fight [APG], † (1 ki point)
Ki leech [UM] (0 ki points)
Lunge (1 ki point)
Shadow step [UM] (1 ki point)
Spit venom [UM] (2 ki points)
Step Up and Strike [APG], † (2 ki points)
Wind Stance (2 ki points)
12th-Level Ki Powers
Abundant step (monk ability, 2 ki points)
Battlemind link [UM] (4 ki points)
Diamond body (monk ability)
Elemental Fist [APG] (2 ki points)
Improvised Weapon Mastery (2 ki points)
Ki Throw [APG] (2 ki points)
Punishing Kick [APG] (2 ki points)
Shadow walk (3 ki points)
14th-Level Ki Powers
Blood crow strike [UM] (2 ki points)
Cloud Step [APG] (3 ki points)
Cold ice strike [UM] (3 ki points)
Diamond soul (monk ability)
Disarming Strike [APG] (2 ki points)
Improved Ki Throw [APG] (2 ki points)
Ki shout [UM] (3 ki points)
Sonic thrust [UM] (2 ki points)
16th-Level Ki Powers
Bleeding Critical (3 ki points)
Greater Blind-Fight [APG], † (2 ki points)
Improved Vital Strike (2 ki points)
Lightning Stance (3 ki points)
Penetrating Strike (2 ki points)
Quivering palm (monk ability, 2 ki points)
Strangling hair [UM] (3 ki points)
18th-Level Ki Powers
Timeless body (monk ability, 1 ki point)
Tongue of the sun and moon (monk ability, 1 ki point)
20th-Level Ki Powers
Blinding Critical (3 ki points)
Crippling Critical [APG] (3 ki points)
Deafening Critical (3 ki points)
Empty body (monk ability, 3 ki points)
Greater Penetrating Strike (3 ki points)
Perfect self (monk ability, level 20)
Tiring Critical (3 ki points)
4th-Level Ki Powers
Acrobatic Steps (1 ki point)
Augury (1 ki point)
Barkskin (self only, 1 ki point)
Deny Death [UM], † (0 ki points)
Feather step [APG] (self only, 1 ki point)
Hydraulic push [APG] (1 ki point)
Ki arrow [UM] (1 ki point)
Ki Stand [UM], † (0 ki points)
Message (1 ki point)
Power Attack (1 ki point)
Quick Draw (1 ki point)
Scorching ray (2 ki points)
Throw Anything (1 ki point)
True strike (self only, 1 ki point)
6th-Level Ki PowersCloak of winds [APG] (self only, 2 ki points)
Gaseous form (self only, 1 ki point)
Heroic Recovery [APG], † (1 ki point)
High jump (monk ability, 1 ki point)
Hydraulic torrent [APG] (2 ki points)
Remove disease (2 ki points)
Sidestep [APG], † (1 ki point)
Snatch Arrows† (1 ki point)
Spring Attack (1 ki point)
8th-Level Ki PowersDragon’s breath [APG] (2 ki points)
Gliding Steps [UM], † (1 ki point)
Neutralize poison (3 ki points)
Poison (2 ki points)
Restoration (self only, 2 ki points)
Share memory [UM] (0 ki points)
Silk to steel [UM] (1 ki point)
Spider Step [APG] (1 ki point)
Whirlwind Attack (2 ki points)
Wholeness of body (monk ability, level 7, 2 ki points)
10th-Level Ki PowersDiscordant blast [APG] (2 ki points)
Greater Bull Rush (2 ki points)
Greater Disarm (2 ki points)
Greater Feint (2 ki points)
Greater Sunder (2 ki points)
Improved Blind-Fight [APG], † (1 ki point)
Ki leech [UM] (0 ki points)
Lunge (1 ki point)
Shadow step [UM] (1 ki point)
Spit venom [UM] (2 ki points)
Step Up and Strike [APG], † (2 ki points)
Wind Stance (2 ki points)
12th-Level Ki PowersAbundant step (monk ability, 2 ki points)
Battlemind link [UM] (4 ki points)
Diamond body (monk ability)
Elemental Fist [APG] (2 ki points)
Improvised Weapon Mastery (2 ki points)
Ki Throw [APG] (2 ki points)
Punishing Kick [APG] (2 ki points)
Shadow walk (3 ki points)
14th-Level Ki PowersBlood crow strike [UM] (2 ki points)
Cloud Step [APG] (3 ki points)
Cold ice strike [UM] (3 ki points)
Diamond...
Only one missing is slow fall, which might have been an oversight.
Only one missing is slow fall, which might have been an oversight.
Nah they had to give up something, just like the ninja loses trap sense, an equally situational ability.
I have read the archetype, you have not it seems. You need to read how archetypes work. You can not cherry pick. You take all the replacement or none.
At 4th level you can Not have slow fall.
High Jump may be taken no earlier then 7th level
Wholeness of body no earlier then 11th
Diamond body may be taken at 12th
Abundant step at 12th
Diamond soul at 15th
Quivering palm at 17th
Tongue of the suns and the Moons at 19th
empty body and perfect self can only be taken at 20
You must pick a power at 4th,5th,7th,11th,12th,13th.15th,17th, 19th and 20th level. You can not choose to skip that level and keep the normal power. Archetypes do not work that way.
I have read the archetype, you have not it seems. You need to read how archetypes work. You can not cherry pick. You take all the replacement or none.
At 4th level you can Not have slow fall.
High Jump may be taken no earlier then 7th level
Wholeness of body no earlier then 11th
Diamond body may be taken at 12th
Abundant step at 12th
Diamond soul at 15thQuivering palm at 17th
Tongue of the suns and the Moons at 19th
empty body and perfect self can only be taken at 20You must pick a power at 4th,5th,7th,11th,12th,13th.15th,17th, 19th and 20th level. You can not choose to skip that level and keep the normal power. Archetypes do not work that way.
That doesn't change the fact you can get back any vanilla monk powers you wanted to keep.
Sure you cant get slow fall but the ninja can't get trap-sense either.
That doesn't change the fact you can get back any vanilla monk powers you wanted to keep.Sure you cant get slow fall but the ninja can't get trap-sense either.
Shadow you aren't gonna convince this guy, im sorry, but you cant i tried to do it through the whole playtest its just not gonna work, you have made many valid points, and yet he continues to complain. His issue is its called ninja thats it, I pointed out long ago that rogues can select the ninja tricks and yet he just ignored it, ninjas cant even get a feat to select ninja tricks from what i understand. He is even only referencing the beta test, how about we talk about this again when he has the book available.
Back to the topic those of you complaining its a whole class write up its because of the oriental ap. that way you only need one book if you wanna play a ninja or samurai in the ap you don't need to worry about looking at the original class to write up a character.
the way qigong monk is worded it the choice to swap a power out for a ki power is optional. there is really no reason for any monk to tot be a qigong monk unless it's not a theme the player wants.
He is right, I am not moving on this one. And you are not gonna move yourself, so I might as well stop and you might as well stop. I see what you are saying I simply disagree it is the same thing. This one issue isn't gonna ruin the book for me, I decided in the beta how I would fix the issue if it was not fixed.
Long as ya don't play in my games it really shouldn't bother ya all that much I plan to rework this archetype.
the way qigong monk is worded it the choice to swap a power out for a ki power is optional. there is really no reason for any monk to tot be a qigong monk unless it's not a theme the player wants.
I do not think many archetypes will stack with it for one. I have not checked but if they touch any of those 11 ablilites it will not stack
Also on not trading the ablilites. The problem is once ya take the archetype you can not take that monk ki power until you can by the archetype. Meaning the only one you can take at the correct level is abundent step.
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the way qigong monk is worded it the choice to swap a power out for a ki power is optional. there is really no reason for any monk to tot be a qigong monk unless it's not a theme the player wants.I do not think many archetypes will stack with it for one. I have not checked but if they touch any of those 11 ablilites it will not stack
Also on not trading the ablilites. The problem is once ya take the archetype you can not take that monk ki power until you can by the archetype. Meaning the only one you can take at the correct level is abundent step.
A qinggong monk can CHOOSE if he trades abilities for others. This means a qinggong monk could be vanilla at 95% except for this level 12 power he took instead of Abundant Step.
This means a qinggong monk can be any other archetype at the same time, but cannot replace class abilities he will not get due to having an archetype.
Ok look A Qinggong Monk can not take a power before the archetype allows this. The High Jump Monk ability can only be taken if the Monk is at lest 6th level. Meaning he can Not have it at 5th like the normal monk, but he must take something at 5th.
I am Not sure how else to make that any clearer.
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Wait, wait, you do understand the Qinggong monk GETS High Jump at level 5, but this class ability is also introduced as a level 6 alternative power because he can buy it back later in case he choose to take something else at level 5, right ? Quoting from the srd : "Even if a qinggong monk selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability, she can select that monk ability later as one of her ki powers."
You do understand that the previous, RAW sentence states :
- the qinggong monk CAN select a Ki power, as in "it is a choice"...
- ... and insists on the fact he can later select a power he choose to trade previously, thus meaning he don't HAVE to trade his vanilla powers from the beginning, else this sentence wouldn't have any sense ?
Makes sense to me to put it at a later level so the monk can't trade his level 4 ability for something he shouldn't get before level 5...
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The core bard is still a problem, so is the core fighter (and perhaps the core monk too).I'm sorry sir, but I do believe this is sillyness.
Core fighter is totally valid, and arguably as good or better all around than most or all of its archetypes.
Core Bard is also rock solid. It has good specialist options, but for being a skill-versatile support monster, its still pretty much the go-to choice.
I agree. I built a fighter, using only one feat out of the APG and he was a wrecking machine, if I could get next to something, it died. I could also do non-combat stuff, but that really wasn't all that important, though I did save the day on more than one occasion using only skills.
That very same fighter and his entire party got completely rocked (no pun, because she dances, she doesn't actually make music) by the dancing lady in the Kingmaker AP, who is little more than a bard, and she was the one thing he stood next to that managed to avoid getting dead, because she managed to escape.
Ugh no he does not gain it at 5th. He has a slot at 5th where that used to go, he may only take it if he is 6th level.
You guys are reading this wrong. I see how you are doing it but you are indeed reading it wrong. You can not skip ablilities.
It says
"qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities"
Now read that sentence without the break. It says You can select any power you qualify for in place of. Not that you have an option but that you can take any one you can meet. You can take all 4th level powers all the way up. That is what it means, not that you do not have to replace an option. Archetypes are all or nothing. You no longer have those things at those levels. But you have a large list of options.
Now lets look at the qualification
Requirements: All ki powers have a minimum monk level requirement to select them. A monk who does not meet this requirement cannot select that ki power.
As you see if the power is not on the list you may not take it. You must select options at levels 4th,5th,7th,11th,12th,13th.15th,17th,17th 19th and 20th. Now looking at the chart we can not take any 6th level powers until 7th level. Meaning the 4th and 5th level powers must come from the 4th level list.
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*opens UC PDF, marks out Ninja and writes in Rogue*
This is exactly what I was going to say.
Ninja is a better rogue than a rogue? How does it compare to the rest of the game though? I didn't follow it too closely but nothing I've seen makes me think ninja is going to dethrone the more powerful classes (whichever classes you think are the most powerful).
I did see something in the rogue archetypes that I liked though, there is a knife fighter archetype that gets you 1d8 sneak attack if you use daggers (or some other weapons). I suspect that archetype is going to see a lot of play.
The other rogue friendly think I see is the Sap feats which seem like they would play well with some of the intimidate rogue builds. Those are a little more off the wall though.
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You guys are reading this wrong. I see how you are doing it but you are indeed reading it wrong. You can not skip ablilities.It says
"qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilitiesIf you quote, quote until the end :
"This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power."
It isn't a "slot where the ability used to be", it's an ability which is here, but tradable. The archetype merely shows you the monk abilities you can trade and their levels, it doesn't take them away.
A monk ability isn't a ki power. You get High Jump at level 5 but can't trade any monk ability and get it as a ki power until level 6.
Yes it replaces the ablity. You can not have slow fall, you have it up You do not have high jump at 5th you gave it up. You may take high jump after 6th level however.
Once you selected this archetype you gave up all those powers for more options. You can not pick and choose with archetypes. You take it all or nothing.
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Yes it replaces the ablity. You can not have slow fall, you have it up You do not have high jump at 5th you gave it up. You may take high jump after 6th level however.
Once you selected this archetype you gave up all those powers for more options. You can not pick and choose with archetypes. You take it all or nothing.
No it doesn't, you get theses abilities with the choice to trade them and this is part of what made it such a loved archetype, + blablabla, + you're wrong just read it again, + other people already explained why, + even d20psfrd shows the qinggong trading as optional ; but seeing the haunting Moëbius ring of the minutes I would lose arguing when the whole point was explained and clarified during the previous posts, I'll just return to my South Park episode and let you with an artificial satisfaction of victory. Enjoy your gimped interpretation while playing.
Yes it does. You are indeed incorrect here, archetypes do not work that way and the writeup even says what level you may take a power at.
I am done here on this, misuse it as you will.
That doesn't change the fact you can get back any vanilla monk powers you wanted to keep.Sure you cant get slow fall but the ninja can't get trap-sense either.
Shadow you aren't gonna convince this guy, im sorry, but you cant i tried to do it through the whole playtest its just not gonna work, you have made many valid points, and yet he continues to complain. His issue is its called ninja thats it, I pointed out long ago that rogues can select the ninja tricks and yet he just ignored it, ninjas cant even get a feat to select ninja tricks from what i understand. He is even only referencing the beta test, how about we talk about this again when he has the book available.
Back to the topic those of you complaining its a whole class write up its because of the oriental ap. that way you only need one book if you wanna play a ninja or samurai in the ap you don't need to worry about looking at the original class to write up a character.
Considering how many others have quieted down about it I can live with one stubborn person I suppose.