Radvir Giovanni- Stretch of the imagination *SPOILERS*


Carrion Crown


I'm having an issue with his whole catch vampires trick.
His four vampire enforcers grapple vampire...yup got that.
He then uses his wand of Halt Undead...This is when it breaks down as far as I can see.
Wand DC13 WILL
Vampire bonus to WILL saves +12.
You see my problem? Am I being really stupid and missing the obvious?

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Spacelard wrote:

I'm having an issue with his whole catch vampires trick.

His four vampire enforcers grapple vampire...yup got that.
He then uses his wand of Halt Undead...This is when it breaks down as far as I can see.
Wand DC13 WILL
Vampire bonus to WILL saves +12.
You see my problem? Am I being really stupid and missing the obvious?

Some thoughts:

Spoiler:

I think that probably would be an issue, especially since Radvir is targeting elder vampires moreso than the kind appearing in the Bestiary. That means they're probably higher level than the 8th level sorcerer variety. So, it's pretty unlikely any of Radvir's victims would succumb to a halt undead off a wand.

That item actually got added during development. The original turnover defined Radvir as a 12th level monk. So, between him and his supporting cast, they pretty much had the "grapple and stake" strategy down pat, especially if he could lure one of the elders into a false sense of security to get close to them. This is important because if a vampire realizes what's happening, they could assume gaseous form in an attempt to flee or find help. So, Radvir and his gang have to be really swift and sure everytime they take down someone. In that sense, a wand of halt undead seems kind of promising, but probably not very practical against the elders.

If you wanted to change this around, I suppose you could trade out the wand for a heightened spell scroll or something. But, even then, the spell itself stands a good chance of being ignored by most high level undead. Vampires are slippery...both mentally and physically. So, murdering one in a fashion where you can retain its body (as Radvir required) is fraught with all kinds of problems.

My two cents,
--Neil


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Maybe add a Staff of Necromancy. It's got Halt Undead as one of it's spells and staves use the wielders spell DC.


Neil Spicer wrote:
Spacelard wrote:

I'm having an issue with his whole catch vampires trick.

His four vampire enforcers grapple vampire...yup got that.
He then uses his wand of Halt Undead...This is when it breaks down as far as I can see.
Wand DC13 WILL
Vampire bonus to WILL saves +12.
You see my problem? Am I being really stupid and missing the obvious?

Some thoughts:

** spoiler omitted **

My two cents,
--Neil

So maybe rebuild him as the original?

Any particular reason why it was dropped?

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Spacelard wrote:
Any particular reason why it was dropped?

A theory...

Spoiler:

I suspect it had to do with the fact that I layered on the inveigler template from the Advanced Bestiary. I chose that particular template because of the built-in abilities it would grant Radvir in avoiding divination attempts to discern if he was lying. Without the template, I'd assume they changed him to a rogue with the spy archetype so they could showcase the skilled liar ability and include the honeyed words rogue talent instead. It also has the added advantage of giving him a sneak attack, lots more skill points, and a more potent Bluff, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth to better carry out his misdeeds.


Neil Spicer wrote:
Spacelard wrote:
Any particular reason why it was dropped?

A theory...

** spoiler omitted **

Interesting. I used the same template on the End Boss for my current campaign to cover the same ground - so he could show up in the first adventure and none be the wiser. There are few more useful books for me... It really needs a PF update.


well it seems to me that Radvir's method as presented is an weak link in an otherwise well written scenario. At least I have a few months or so to fix it.
I would still like to thrash ideas about how to achieve it without resorting to a stack of magic items which the PCs might end up getting or just hand waving the fact that at least one vamp would have escaped and spilled the beans about who was doing the killings.


Neil Spicer wrote:
Spacelard wrote:
Any particular reason why it was dropped?

A theory...

** spoiler omitted **

I could not find the template. Do you have a page number for it?

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

wraithstrike wrote:
I could not find the template. Do you have a page number for it?

Sure. It's in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary, pg. 153.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Spacelard wrote:
I would still like to thrash ideas about how to achieve it without resorting to a stack of magic items which the PCs might end up getting or just hand waving the fact that at least one vamp would have escaped and spilled the beans about who was doing the killings.

An idea to thrash...

Spoiler:

Originally, in my head, I was thrashing around the problem of "How to Catch a Vampire" both in terms of Radvir murdering them and turning their bodies over to the witches of Barstoi for experimentation, as well as how the PCs would go about capturing Radvir in order to turn him over to Luvick for judgment and eventual punishment. With vampires having the ability to turn gaseous and flee to their coffins, you've got to be quick if you want to immobilize them in some way. A stake through the heart is what you want. But you need them to stay solid long enough to pull it off. Thus, even with Luvick's punishment of chaining rebellious vampires to the steeples of Caliphas so they'll burn up in the morning sun requires some kind of "keep them there" tool.

Thus, I kept toying with the idea of a more powerful immobilization technique. Either, a more powerful version of halt undead, some kind of temporary trapping or debilitating spell like resilient sphere or mental paralysis, or any other effect that keeps a vampire from using its gaseous form ability. That way, the fight can continue and a victim can't easily get away. So, something that prevents shapechanging of all kinds (i.e., transforming into a bat, for instance, as well as the gaseous form thing) ought to do the trick. In Luvick's case, I imagine he has magic chains that achieve the same thing for carrying out the punishments he exacts upon traitors. And, in Radvir's case, since obtaining a seat on the vampire council, perhaps he, too, has gained access to that same technique. Only, he's using it to carry out his murders.

Another two cents,
--Neil


Neil Spicer wrote:
Spacelard wrote:
I would still like to thrash ideas about how to achieve it without resorting to a stack of magic items which the PCs might end up getting or just hand waving the fact that at least one vamp would have escaped and spilled the beans about who was doing the killings.

An idea to thrash...

** spoiler omitted **

Another two cents,
--Neil

Hmmm...food for thought, thanks.

Keep this up and I'll have a dollar :D


Quote:

An idea to thrash...

** spoiler omitted **

Well your musings seem to have led to a nice, neat solution, at least in my mind. Luvik owns a set of chains which prevent vampires from entering their gaseous form. Radvir stole it,replacing it with a fake, complete with a permanencied Magic Aura and everything. Luvik has to use this punishment so rarely that he hasn't noticed yet. As I haven't yet read this adventure in it's entirety, (I'm in the midst of running haunting of harrowstone right now) if Luvik needs to do his execution act at some point, he simply has more sets of these chains in case he needs to keep more prisoners.

The only downsides I see to this plan is that it leaves you with a custom item the PCs could use to cause some serious harm to vampires if they could get them pinned quickly enough to make it matter. At this level summoning a handful of mephits to surround the vampire with wind walls is an entirely viable containment strategy, so I wouldn't be THAT concerned. Also it makes Luvik look somewhat incompetent if the PCs unravel the origin of the chains... oh well?


Don't anti-magic fields cancel out supernatural abilities?

It could be that an anti magic field is created at some point to prevent transformation, and then they're grappled -> staked.

Helps also prevent the creation of an overpowering custom item.

Grand Lodge

Having now statted Radvir as an inveigler monk (hungry ghost monk) 12 to see what he looks like, I'm liking the numbers. 1 CR higher than his current incarnation in the adventure, but CMB +22 grapple and CMD 46 vs grapple means that the 'grab pin stake' tactic has some real mileage in it.

And no, the 'hungry ghost monk' archetype wasn't required, but...c'mon. ;)

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Ninjaiguana wrote:
Having now statted Radvir as an inveigler monk (hungry ghost monk) 12 to see what he looks like, I'm liking the numbers. 1 CR higher than his current incarnation in the adventure, but CMB +22 grapple and CMD 46 vs grapple means that the 'grab pin stake' tactic has some real mileage in it....And no, the 'hungry ghost monk' archetype wasn't required, but...c'mon. ;)

Checking my notes here at home, I actually statted Radvir as a multiclass inveigler expert 2/monk 12. The levels in the expert NPC class gave him class skills suited to his profession as a merchant (including many of the skill ranks he needed to round out his role as the ultimate deceiver). It also layered on another couple of Hit Dice, a +1 BAB, and a +3 to his Will save...all without adding to his overall CR (since the boost from NPC class levels rounds down in the calculation). I didn't throw in the hungry ghost archetype, though, since, at development time, I don't think we had full access to everything in the APG at the time. I got some advance stuff on the witch class, obviously, but not everything.


as I understand it there is a new grapple monk doodad in UC which essentially gets to do two combat manoeuvres as a SA....I haven't got the pdf yet but has anyone seen it and does this seem workable?
So grapple, pin....stab with stake


Spoiler:
I think I have some sort of solution to this problem, building on the idea of Radvir as a Monk...

If there are magical chains that prevent vampires from using their shapechanging abilities, I think it's entirely possible to have some kind of magical gloves (or the like) that prevented the target of a grapple from shapechanging? Like... Gloves of Impossible Escape? Just an idea...


I'm thinking of a bit of foreshadowing:
during the research the PCs find reference to a special prisoner who has been bricked up in the basement "for all time suffering in his existence"....behind some mortared bricks, the mortar infused with silver and cold iron flecks is a corpse or what seems like one. leathery skin stretched taught over bones as it hangs from a set of manacles fixed to the wall. they detect as magic and good...prolly covered in spirals...one very weak vampire. if they release him he goes gaseous ASAP...and comes back later to get those chains for he is Radvir...

yes its prolly full of holes as is but I may develop it some more. remember my thinking is influenced by my players and my expectations of what they would do.

Liberty's Edge

QUOTE="Ninjaiguana"] Having now statted Radvir as an inveigler monk (hungry ghost monk) 12

Neil Spicer wrote:
I actually statted Radvir as a multiclass inveigler expert 2/monk 12.

Say, I don't suppose we could also see those variant Radvir stats?

Grand Lodge

brreitz wrote:
Ninjaiguana wrote:
Having now statted Radvir as an inveigler monk (hungry ghost monk) 12
Neil Spicer wrote:
I actually statted Radvir as a multiclass inveigler expert 2/monk 12.
Say, I don't suppose we could also see those variant Radvir stats?

I'd be happy to post my variant stats if Neil's cool with it.

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