[UM] Knowledge pool = free spells?


Rules Questions

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I am reading over the Knowledge Pool Magus ability, and I was basically wondering if it let's you add spells to your spellbook.

It basically let's you memorize a spell for the day as if you knew it. If I take the Scribe Scroll feat, would I then be able to scribe the spell onto a scroll, then scribe it into my spellbook?


I thought it just let you add spells from the wiz/sor list to your spell book.


DSRMT wrote:
If I take the Scribe Scroll feat, would I then be able to scribe the spell onto a scroll, then scribe it into my spellbook?

Kind of expensive, but I don't see why not.

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I thought it just let you add spells from the wiz/sor list to your spell book.

No, it lets you treat a Magus spell as if it's in your book for the day.

Knowledge Pool (Su): At 7th level, when a magus prepares his magus spells, he can decide to expend 1 or more points from his arcane pool, up to his Intelligence bonus. For each point he expends, he can treat any one spell from the magus spell list as if it were in his spellbook and can prepare that spell as normal that day. If he does not cast spells prepared in this way before the next time he prepares spells, he loses those spells. He can also cast spells added in this way using his spell recall ability, but only until he prepares spells again.

-edit-
You're probably thinking of the Spell Blending arcana.


DSRMT wrote:

I am reading over the Knowledge Pool Magus ability, and I was basically wondering if it let's you add spells to your spellbook.

It basically let's you memorize a spell for the day as if you knew it. If I take the Scribe Scroll feat, would I then be able to scribe the spell onto a scroll, then scribe it into my spellbook?

Yes you are correct, and you don't need the scribe scroll feat, you just scribe the spell in your spellbook.


leo1925 wrote:
DSRMT wrote:

I am reading over the Knowledge Pool Magus ability, and I was basically wondering if it let's you add spells to your spellbook.

It basically let's you memorize a spell for the day as if you knew it. If I take the Scribe Scroll feat, would I then be able to scribe the spell onto a scroll, then scribe it into my spellbook?

Yes you are correct, and you don't need the scribe scroll feat, you just scribe the spell in your spellbook.

For some reason, I thought you wouldn't be able to do that from memory, that's why I thought you'd need a scroll


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DSRMT wrote:
For some reason, I thought you wouldn't be able to do that from memory, that's why I thought you'd need a scroll

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks: A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.


Grick wrote:
DSRMT wrote:
For some reason, I thought you wouldn't be able to do that from memory, that's why I thought you'd need a scroll

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks: A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook.

Well, that's interesting. I wonder if the Devs meant for that to happen


DSRMT wrote:


Well, that's interesting. I wonder if the Devs meant for that to happen

Doubtful.


I FAQed it in hopes of some clarification. As written, I think it would.


FAQed as well.

To me, the entry doesn't say that you can't do that, but since the Devs went into a fair amount of specificity in regards to what you can do with the ability, I have to assume that they intended for the ability to only do specifically what it says.

Could be wrong, tho.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

This was caught by, like a hundred people, back in the playtest. How on earth did it get into the book?


Ravingdork wrote:
This was caught by, like a hundred people, back in the playtest. How on earth did it get into the book?

That is my question as well.


Unless it was intentional... I mean its not a bomb-shell of exploitability, is it?


LoreKeeper wrote:
Unless it was intentional... I mean its not a bomb-shell of exploitability, is it?

I don't really got what the bomb-shell meant but no i don't think that this is a big exploit, it just saves you some (very little) money when you have the time.


At higher levels the savings do increase.


Talonhawke wrote:
At higher levels the savings do increase.

From a really fast calculation the number looks like 5000gp saved at 20th level.

Is that kind of money really much?

(i assumed that the magus will have to pay a "take a look" fee for ten spells for each spell level and added 500gp on top for something extra)


Don't have my books handy to look up scroll cost just know they can get up there even if you cap at 6th level spells.


Talonhawke wrote:
Don't have my books handy to look up scroll cost just know they can get up there even if you cap at 6th level spells.

Why use the scroll cost?


I am assuming thats the cost that would be paid for a player who doesn't happen to just have a local guild or whatever that would let him copy down spells for a fairly cheap cost.


Talonhawke wrote:
I am assuming thats the cost that would be paid for a player who doesn't happen to just have a local guild or whatever that would let him copy down spells for a fairly cheap cost.

Then you are assuming wrong, every town should have at least a wizard if not a guild (or at least someone with a spellbook) and if not it most certainly has old spellbooks in the libraries or laboratories or whatever the town has, and it's a pretty mean thing to do to a wizard/magus/alchemist if he doesn't have access to that, i am even going to say that it's quite mean if you don't let witches find other witches in order to trade spells.


While i agree that there should be some the assumption that their is a findable caster for every spell that is willing to let you copy it is stretching it IMO especially when you hit higher level spells. Preparation casters already have a major advantage when they know what to expect but letting them get cheap access to their whole list and as you pointed out 5000g by 20 is very cheap starts making sorcerer obsolete.


Talonhawke wrote:
While i agree that there should be some the assumption that their is a findable caster for every spell that is willing to let you copy it is stretching it IMO especially when you hit higher level spells. Preparation casters already have a major advantage when they know what to expect but letting them get cheap access to their whole list and as you pointed out 5000g by 20 is very cheap starts making sorcerer obsolete.

That's one of the reasons some poeple are screaming "please help the sorcerers".

Now to the point at hand, remember that the magus can only cast 6 level of spells, that means that in any large city you pay for a spellcasting service of up to 6th level spells. So since you can have a casting of a spell why can't you just copy it to your spellbook from the person that is casting it?
Also for the wizard the costs are higher since the price goes up as spell level goes up and the wizard has 9 level of spells.


If i am the only man in town who can cast X 6th level spell why would i teach to someone else and break my corner on the market. and even if their are 100 guys who can cast it you still have to find one willing to let you get it or who you can steal a spell book from.


The wizard (at 20th level) would have spent 22000gp. I assumed that he had paid the fee to "take a look" 15 times for each spell level and that he indeed found 9th level spells to copy and added 600gp on top.

Keep in mind that the numbers i have given are only for the "take a look" fee and not for insribing the spell in your spellbook, because that's what we are discussing.


Talonhawke wrote:
If i am the only man in town who can cast X 6th level spell why would i teach to someone else and break my corner on the market. and even if their are 100 guys who can cast it you still have to find one willing to let you get it or who you can steal a spell book from.

If you are the only man in a large city that can cast 6th level spells and you can cast nearly every spell i want up to 6th level then the DM did something wrong, since the rules say that you find spellcasting service for up to 6th level spells to a large city then there must at least a handfull of poeple capable of doing that. Also even if you were (for some reason) the only man that can cast 6th level spells that doesn't mean that there aren't others that have 6th level spells in their spellbooks or at the city's magical academy or wherever.


First off i meant a single spell not every 6th level.

Second you still assume that the person would for a very cheap cost let you copy the spell there are no rules for the cost so this would at best be based on diplomacy or some other skill outside of guild affiliations.


Talonhawke wrote:

First off i meant a single spell not every 6th level.

Second you still assume that the person would for a very cheap cost let you copy the spell there are no rules for the cost so this would at best be based on diplomacy or some other skill outside of guild affiliations.

No there are rules for that, the cost is half the inscribing cost.


That is usually the cost some spells may cost more and it is a privlage not a right which means that the wizards may not be able to find someone willing depending on several factors.

However we are just going to but heads here so i see little point in a continuing derailment of this thread simply to argue over the ease and cost of leaning every spell in the game.


Talonhawke wrote:
While i agree that there should be some the assumption that their is a findable caster for every spell that is willing to let you copy it is stretching it IMO especially when you hit higher level spells. Preparation casters already have a major advantage when they know what to expect but letting them get cheap access to their whole list and as you pointed out 5000g by 20 is very cheap starts making sorcerer obsolete.

I must have missed a memo.... Sorcs aren't obsolete any more?

Anyway.... IMHO Rules as written in this case suck. From the SRD...

"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."

So I turn up to a magic shop, ask to see their 'loan out' copy of their spells, Copy Teleport out (for 125gp) and the material components to make a scroll of teleport for 560-ish GP... instead of buying the scroll for 1125.

Love that business model.

Unless your learning from your master or a teacher associated with him, I'd charge a decent cost to learn it, not for the equivalent of 20 minutes of drinking (125gp to a 9th level wizard has probably about the value of half a beer, right?)

That said, if you want to play in a world where magic is openly and freely traded amongst the wizards, not a guarded secret, then by all means, have 'Spell Swapping Parties' where everyone donates a random spell for everyone else to learn for the sake of brotherhood and closer bonds.

Me? I like a spellbook being something that takes more than 20 minutes and a couple of gold to replace.


@Ecaterina Ducaird
For the love of everything that's good and pure what kind of beer are you drinking and half of it costs 125gp?

@Talonhawke
You know that two people can play this game right?
Well since you can buy any non-magical gear if it's cost is lower than the base value of the city (just like a 2nd level ranger buys his breastplate), i go to to a town/city and i want to buy a traveling spellbook that has inscribed in only the spells haste and fireball, the cost to buy said spellbook is 190gp (less than a breastplate) and by the rules i can make such a purchase, so i buy said spellbook and if i want i copy the spells into my regular spellbook or i simply keep the spellbook as it is and prepare those two spells from there (the check is pretty easy). See i still didn't pay the huge cost of two 3rd level scrolls and i was 100% withing the rules, all that with an extra 100gp.
The bottom line is that getting a spell in your spellbook is suppossed to be very easy most of the times.

The point is that the core book makes some assumptions, one of them is that the world is* a place that magic is openly and freely traded among wizards and such, and then when another books comes out it is based on those assumptions so in order to judge something (in this case the ability to know every spell in your spell list given enough time) you must make the same assumptions as the core book does.
Now if you don't like those assumptions you are free to change them and play the game in whatever way you like but when you are on a discussion (like here) that most of the poeple accept those assumptions then you must accept them as well in order to have a fruitful discussion.

*(with some exceptions of course, yes east ustalav i am looking at you)

Scarab Sages

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:/

The core book makes no such assumption that the world is *a place that magic is openly and freely traded among wizards*. If that were true, they wouldn't charge a fee to those wizards they trusted enough to let copy spells from their spellbooks.

Now, if you don't like the assumption that wizards don't willingly share and at the minimum must be paid, well, you are free to change them if you like, and play that way, but they are not inherent in the CRB.

Page 163 of the CRB talks about the spellcasting service. "In addition, not every town or village has a spellcaster of sufficient level to cast any spell. In general, you must travel to a small town (or larger settlement to be reasonably assured of finding a spellcaster capable of casting 1st-level spells, a large town for 2nd-level spells, a small city for 3rd or 4th level spells, a large city for 5th or 6th level spells, and a metropolis for 7th or 8th level spells. Even a metropolis isn't guaranteed to have a local spellcaster able to cast 9th level spells."

The availability of a spellcaster is entirely dependent on the size of the population centers in the world. And that's just finding a spellcaster CAPABLE of casting the appropriate level spells. You still have to convince him to do what you want him to.

Each town ALSO has a base value associated with it. There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community (Page 460 CRB).

4th level spells require a small town, with a 75% chance of being present.

For a magus, 6th level spells require a small city for that 75% chance. Again, dependent on what population locations your dm includes in his setting.

Guess who controls the size of the population centers.

While magic shops *might* have a loan out version of a spell, that isn't part of the rules and is completely a dm prerogative. Is the magic shop owner a wizard, or a merchant who has a few wizards that help stock his shop, as well as buying magical gear from adventurers and turning it for a profit?

By limiting the availability of ways to attain additional spells to scribe into a book, you increase the attractiveness of the spontaneous caster. By increasing the availability of scrolls, you decrease the value of the spontaneous caster.

Find the happy medium.


@Magicdealer
Yes it's not free, i should have said relatively free.
Also the 75% chance is for magical gear or very expensive gear, the price of the spellbook i asked is less than a breastplate.

In addtion i am not going to gimp the wizard because they (Paizo) can't or don't want to find a way to make the sorcerer a solid choice. Believe me i feel for the sorcerer and i really think that it should get more love but i am not going to gimp other classes because one isn't good enough.

Now about the copying spells from another wizard/magus spellbook:
Why do you want to make the life of a wizard/magus/alchemist difficult? The book says what those people usually charge for letting you copy from their books so why exactly you want to make it harder and have said character have to convience the NPC? do you require the same from the figter who wants to buy a new magic weapon from a merchant?
And if you do that, does it really help your game by requiring extra time every time a player wants to make a purchase?


leo1925 wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
Unless it was intentional... I mean its not a bomb-shell of exploitability, is it?
I don't really got what the bomb-shell meant but no i don't think that this is a big exploit, it just saves you some (very little) money when you have the time.

I am not sure whether it counts as an "exploit", but it certainly is IMHO thematically wrong for a prepared caster, who studies spells and copies them into a spellbook. If I were GMing a Magus, then I would say that you cannot use Knowledge pool to copy spells into your special book with which you spend all your time working out arcane theories, in a matter of a week.


Anburaid wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
Unless it was intentional... I mean its not a bomb-shell of exploitability, is it?
I don't really got what the bomb-shell meant but no i don't think that this is a big exploit, it just saves you some (very little) money when you have the time.
I am not sure whether it counts as an "exploit", but it certainly is IMHO thematically wrong for a prepared caster, who studies spells and copies them into a spellbook. If I were GMing a Magus, then I would say that you cannot use Knowledge pool to copy spells into your special book with which you spend all your time working out arcane theories in a matter of a week.

Unthematic? maybe you are right but now i am starting to think that this ability might be there because (as we have seen in this thread) there are some people that don't like to give a wizard/magus/etc. easy and cheap access to new spells and they wanted to give the magus a way to get new spells OR they wanted to remove that exploit and simply forgot to do it.

But i think that this exploit is maybe the smaller one this book offers, i think that everyone knows of the spell perfection+echoing spell exploit right?


leo1925 wrote:
Anburaid wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
Unless it was intentional... I mean its not a bomb-shell of exploitability, is it?
I don't really got what the bomb-shell meant but no i don't think that this is a big exploit, it just saves you some (very little) money when you have the time.
I am not sure whether it counts as an "exploit", but it certainly is IMHO thematically wrong for a prepared caster, who studies spells and copies them into a spellbook. If I were GMing a Magus, then I would say that you cannot use Knowledge pool to copy spells into your special book with which you spend all your time working out arcane theories in a matter of a week.

Unthematic? maybe you are right but now i am starting to think that this ability might be there because (as we have seen in this thread) there are some people that don't like to give a wizard/magus/etc. easy and cheap access to new spells and they wanted to give the magus a way to get new spells OR they wanted to remove that exploit and simply forgot to do it.

But i think that this exploit is maybe the smaller one this book offers, i think that everyone knows of the spell perfection+echoing spell exploit right?

I think you are correct. i think that with the magus' spell list being more restricted than a wizard's, the Dev's decided to give them an option to work like a divine prepared caster. But I think its too much. They have arcana that expand their spell lists, as well as improved combat ability to fall back on.


@Anburaid
I haven't thought the prepared divine caster aspect of it, yes you might have a point there.
Anyway we will see what happens when the errata finally comes out.

Scarab Sages

leo1925 wrote:


Now about the copying spells from another wizard/magus spellbook:
Why do you want to make the life of a wizard/magus/alchemist difficult? The book says what those people usually charge for letting you copy from their books so why exactly you want to make it harder and have said character have to convience the NPC? do you require the same from the figter who wants to buy a new magic weapon from a merchant?
And if you do that, does it really help your game by requiring extra time every time a player wants to make a purchase?

See, you're functioning off of an incorrect assumption. That assumption being that all these spells are freely available to find and purchase. Given my previous post, that's clearly not a valid assumption.

It's not "making the life of a...difficult". If the way the game is supposed to be played isn't easy access to all the spells, then giving them all the spells is actually making their lives easier.

That new magical sword has to follow the same wealth limitation rules as those scrolls. In fact, the pricing spectrum affects all the magical items that are available in the game.

Making all those scrolls available across the board is akin to making all the magical items in the crb available across the board. The game doesn't work like that. It has specific rules for city size and item availability. You *can* play the game as though everything is available all the time, but that shifts the balance of the game significantly. Suddenly, all your players have optimized gear in every slot. Spontaneous casters are worse off since they can't grow their spell list. Prepared casters are better off, since they suddenly have EVERY spell in their books.

The point is that everything isn't available all the time. Prepared casters will have more spells than spontaneous casters, and they can scribe more in when they come across them. The balance lies in the middle, not at either extreme. If the wizard doesn't feel like he has to make choices when picking spells at a level up, then the feature has no value and the balance is off.

The fighter might not have to convince the magic store to sell him his sword (if the store has one to sell), but he's not "borrowing" their "loan out" version. If a scroll is available, the prepared caster can always purchase the scroll, and scribe it to his spellbook. If he wants to get around purchasing the scroll, he's going to have to find a wizard and convince them that he won't just take their spellbook and make a run for it.

Or do you loan your car out to any random person on the street and expect them to return it, as long as they're willing to give you fifty bucks?

It doesn't take extra time for a player to make a purchase, if they're already familiar with the rules. The only thing that slows play down is learning how to implement them correctly in the first place.


@Magicdealer
Ok i am starting to think that the reason you are against that are the spontaneous casters, if that's your way of making the sorcerer class actually matters a little more and it works in your game then it's ok.

Because we have threadjacked this thread enough as it is i am going to use spoilers in order to continue our discussion.

trying to stop the threadjacking:

I am not going even touch the car analogy because it's just plain wrong, because the value of a car and the value of a few spellbook pages isn't the same.
Let me give you an example of how the whole thing works (or could work) in a game:
If a fellow wizard (a colleague) comes to me and asks me to copy a couple of spells from my spellbook i will do the following:
1)Tear off the pages of those spells from my spellbook (so that wizard doesn't see what else i have in my spellbook)
2)Tell him that in addition to the normal charging fee he must also pay me a safety deposit equal to the amount of money i am going to need to replace the spell (that is charging + inscribing cost), so in case he takes my pages and dissapears i will simply have to another wizard and use the money of the safety deposit in order to re-gain the spell.
3)When he finishes copying the spells i take the pages back, gives him back his safety deposit and re-attach the spells in the spellbook and cast mending so that my spellbook looks brand new.
4)Gain a few gold pieces in a few hours by casting a single cantrip.

Also i am really happy for you that you don't have players that don't try to abuse the system in order to get around this limitation you have placed upon them, the buying a spellbook i gave a few posts above is one example. Another one is stopping the adventure when the wizard has enough money and start teleporting to places that it's pretty likely to let anyone copy from spellbook, those places could be Five Kings Mountains and/or Kyonin where since the majority of people there are there are good it's pretty much likely that they are going to let you copy for the usual charging fee.
Another place to teleport could be Katapesh where everything is for sale and it's also pretty much likely to let me copy for the usual charging fee probably by using the 4 steps i have shown above.
Another place could probably be Absalom where there is the biggest human libraries, universities and magical academy and there is a good chance that they will let me copy spells for the usual charging cost.

So as you can see a half smart player can get around your limitation on wizard, so i suggest that you find another way to make sorcerers matter if anything of the above start happeing.

Also i don't buy the whole "wizards are sopposed to spend a lot of money in their spellbook", since there is a perfectly legal way (the buying spellbook example i gave) of getting what i want at way reduced price than paying for the scrolls.


For what it's worth we have played the game the way i have told you and there was no problem at all.


Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh

If thar be any who know the economic realities o' a proto medieval magical society what deals in arcane hard currency, it'd be a man de call "Magicdealer"

yarrrr


I have a problem with it as a GM, because it takes away my ability to control PC spells without outright banning them.

It wasn't cool with the artificer in Eberron, it wasn't cool during the playtest, and I have no idea why they did this. There's nothing about the Magus thematically that begs for this power. I hope it gets errata'd into oblivion.


Evil Lincoln wrote:

I have a problem with it as a GM, because it takes away my ability to control PC spells without outright banning them.

It wasn't cool with the artificer in Eberron, it wasn't cool during the playtest, and I have no idea why they did this. There's nothing about the Magus thematically that begs for this power. I hope it gets errata'd into oblivion.

Although i see your point, i don't understand what you mean by controling PC spells, if you have a problem with PCs having a specific spell why not simply ban it? You want the NPCs to have a specific spells and PCs not to?


leo1925 wrote:
Although i see your point, i don't understand what you mean by controling PC spells, if you have a problem with PCs having a specific spell why not simply ban it? You want the NPCs to have a specific spells and PCs not to?

Personal preference. Sometimes I merely want to control the availability of a spell, rather than ban it outright. Placing spellbooks as treasure for my wizard PC is one of my favorite parts of the game. If he were a Magus instead, I'd be wasting my time, it seems.

I also have very few houserules, with a long review process before making a house rule. It's way easier to control availability of spells that way rather than writing out a list of banned spells. I don't like having my hand forced like that. I'm more likely to simply ban the Magus itself, which saddens me because I have hithero never banned a class.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
It wasn't cool with the artificer in Eberron, it wasn't cool during the playtest, and I have no idea why they did this. There's nothing about the Magus thematically that begs for this power. I hope it gets errata'd into oblivion

Didn't work for the artificer. The artificers scroll was not ARCANE even if it was for an arcane spell so a wizard could not use an artificers scroll to learn the spell.


@Evil Lincoln
No he would save some money but anyway if that's such a big problem for you, why don't you simply ban the ability knowledge pool rather than banning an entire class that (i assume) you don't have not another problem with?


Ughbash wrote:
Didn't work for the artificer. The artificers scroll was not ARCANE even if it was for an arcane spell so a wizard could not use an artificers scroll to learn the spell.

Good to know. I really wish you had been around to tell me that two years ago :(

At any rate, the irritation with the current scenario stands.


leo1925 wrote:

@Evil Lincoln

No he would save some money but anyway if that's such a big problem for you, why don't you simply ban the ability knowledge pool rather than banning an entire class that (i assume) you don't have not another problem with?

That would probably work. Hasn't come up yet, though, so no need as such.

Scarab Sages

I wouldn't ban the knowledge pool ability. However, if it's bothering you, I would add a houserule line to the bottom of the entry. Something along the lines of "Spells prepared in this manner can not be used to scribe a scroll, or written into a spellbook." Basically just make it clear to your player that they can't use the ability to learn new spells directly or indirectly. Nip it in the bud before your player has time to salivate over doing something that you're planning on denying him anyways :p

le spoiler:

Car analogy works fine, because there are as many ways to get around the "security deposit" as there are to attempt to protect the system. Say, a forgery of your pages. Or various spells that could create a false duplicate of the pages or the gold. "Oh, but I would..." move, counter, counter-move, and on. Eventually you get to the point where you're taking huge amounts of time trying to protect yourself. Also -- tearing pages out of your spellbook? That doesn't make it a magic scroll, you know. And, as per the rules of learning new spells, it must be "in a spellbook or a magic scroll (pg 219 of the CRB if you're interested). Once you rip those pages out, it's not in a spellbook anymore :p Just another little thing I'm sure, that makes the caster world a bit easier in your campaigns.

Your spellbook analogy suffers the same limitations as scrolls. As in, city gold value limitations. And, actually, per the rules the only magic items you can find are the ones that exist in the book. Meaning that if you're looking for a traveling spellbook, you're stuck with the books from ultimate magic. A spellbook with only specific spells in it is a custom item, and so not something that shows up in stores. By the rules, you can make the purchase, but you can't find the item. It's interesting to note that the more magical items added to the game, the lower the chance that you can find a particular item above the city value level.

Again, I haven't placed *limitations* on my players. I actually follow the rules as much as I can, so I'm not providing extra bonuses to my players, which is what your system does. Which, by the way, also means that your "loopholes" don't actually work.

As for the teleporting wizard, that makes things a bit easier on him. However, he still has to know where the cities are, and he's still limited by the size of the cities he's aware of. Also, he'll have to scry in advance since it's not likely that he will have visited most of them yet. Which means he'll have to know someone in every city, and they'll have to fail their will save. Of course, if it's someone important enough to hear about, that probably won't be so easy. Once he gets past that, he can actually attempt the teleportation spell. So he's got a good 76% chance of actually arriving at the city he wants, once he gets done with the prep work.

Pathfinder doesn't mean the Golarion setting. If you're playing in the Golarion setting, I'm sure he could visit those cities once he learned about them, and roll the check for the scrolls he wanted. Well, as long as he had all the time he wanted to go visiting, walking through the cities, and hitting all the magic shops up.

You know, as long as there wasn't an urgent, time sensitive mission/adventure. Or a bunch of other players who didn't feel like waiting for him to go shopping. Ect. Time, btw, is one of the resources that should be managed.

However, many campaigns take place in custom world settings, which again reinforces that whether there are any population centers bigger than a thorp, or indeed any population centers at all, is something entirely dm dependent.

A half-smart player will realize this, and also realize that there are no loopholes to power, and that they shouldn't be trying to "get around" the limitations that the system places on them. You can buy whatever you want into how much wizards are supposed to pay for their spellbooks. To me, it's more about how much is inside than how much it cost them to get there.

I'm glad that your group can enjoy playing in the manner that you do. My groups enjoy playing in the manner that we play in as well. My wizards don't feel like they're getting robbed out of spells, nor do they feel like they SHOULD have every spell of every spell level in their spellbook. My wizards DO get excited about finding an enemies' spellbook or scroll pouch. My fighters are thrilled when the town they're visiting has that belt of strength. Ect. I don't know why you dislike the concept so much. The rules are there. Talk all you want about ignoring them and playing with this rule or that rule. It's fine. The game is played with a myriad of house rules the world around, which helps each game suit the individual table better. But don't try to argue that your way is the way the game *should* be played, or that classes are suffering unduly by following the rules, because the baseline always comes back to the core rulebook and the specific rules I have already gone over. Power creep starts at the table.

Out of curiosity, what is the big hate you seem to have for the sorcerer? From your posts, I get the impression that you think he's a second-class caster.


@Evil Lincoln
Magicdealer's solution is better than what i suggested before unless your problem isn't with loophole and it is with the magus being able to prepare any spell in his list by spending arcane points.

@Magicdealer

spoiler:

Just out of curiosity how do you think that anyone can get around a safety deposit? A simple casting of another cantrip (read magic) can show you if it's a forgery or not.
Now you know that a spellbook isn't a magic item right? It's just a book written in a very very explesive ink, there is nothing magical about a spellbook or rather it doesn't have to be (we all have seen the nice ritual spellbooks can have). So unless you roll 75% chance when one wants to buy a cold iron kama then you shouldn't roll for a spellbook (with no ritual) if the price is under the city's value because a spellbook (again with no ritual) is as mundane and as custom as a cold iron kama.
Now on the wizard teleporting, i was about to say that a smart player knowing you would included a visit to such places in his backstory in order to be able to teleport with a 76% chance but then i saw that you wrote that you would make your player buy the scroll even at a place that it's guarenteed that he will be able to copy a spell from another wizard so i am not going to continue that argument.
Link to PRD
PRD wrote:


In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.

Emphasis mine.

You seem to translate the bolded words to "happens difficult" and "it's not a big chance to actually do it".
Now if you make a habbit of giving your players enemy spellbooks or lost or found etc. spellbooks then it's all ok since we are both getting to same result but everytime a wizard either buys or uses a found scroll to learn a spell then he is spending A LOT of his money, money that didn't have to be spend there and could be spend somewhere else. That's true even when finding a scroll because if the party or the wizard didn't want to keep the scroll but the wizard wanted the spell in his spellbook they could sell the scroll, get the money, split the money to the party members and the wizard use his share to learn the spell from another wizard but if you take away that option then the wizard is forced to use a lot of his money to learn the spell.

On the sorcerer issue, i don't hate the sorcerer much the opposite, i pity the sorcerer because it's a class whose fluff i love but i am really disappointed how worse they are compared to a wizard and the only thing that they can do that can rival the wizard or maybe surpass him is blasting or something very very specific which leads you to create a character who is an one trick pony and that's what not the sorcerers are sopposed to be. Don't get me wrong, Paizo did very good job with the class (when comparing him to 3.5 sorcerer) but still it wasn't enough.

Dark Archive

As far as I can tell, it states you can prepare the spell as if it was in your spell book, but it doesn't say anything about being able to scribe scrolls or add to your spell book via this ability. Personally I'm not sure how you'd make the leap of logic being able to do that at all.


CrackedOzy wrote:
As far as I can tell, it states you can prepare the spell as if it was in your spell book, but it doesn't say anything about being able to scribe scrolls or add to your spell book via this ability. Personally I'm not sure how you'd make the leap of logic being able to do that at all.

Why would it need to say so?

The rules that tell you how to make a scroll and how to write a spell to your spellbook are in the core.

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