Eidolon Outclassing Front-Row Fighters


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Dear all,

first of all, since this is my first posting on the Paizo boards, while being a long time reader I wanted to state, I was aware of at least one more thread dealing with this issue, anyways since it is a particular problem with an Eidolon and a general question of how to handle it - I was very much looking forward to creating a new thread and ask for your opinions, guidances and comments.

After playing for about 7 Sessions I am starting to have a serious and severe problem with Summoner/Eidolon balancing in the game. The Eidolon has an AC of 30 with the Mage Armor (long-time buff).

Base: 10 + 12 natural armor (+6 CL 7, +2 quadruped, +4 with 2 NA evolutions) + 3 (Dex) + 1 Dodge (Feat) + 4 Mage armor

Given 50 HP and a combination of Pounce-Reach-Multiple Attacks it just does not feel right.

With 30 AC it is for TCL7 impressive, I'm not having min-max players in my group and the average AC with a slight magic buff of a front-row fighter is approximately 20-24 - the extreme mobility of the eidolon and it's high damage output while nearly unhitable has started to frustrate some of the "fighter" characters and I have to admit, it started frustrating me as dungeon master.

Well, putting a challenge on it is not hard, it's got low touch-ac and bad overall saves, that's not my point. I was just wondering if you think these AC30-31 are just normal and well balanced or balanced at all. (Since in my experience this is a CL7 defense-only fighter, who has less damage output and has his life at stake when he is in the front row, while the Eidolon has nothing real at stake - or much less)

How do you handle these things? What's your opinion on extreme AC summoned monsters?


Base 10+Full Plate Armor+2 (+11) + Large Metal Shield +2 (+4) +Dex (13, very reasonable for a fighter)(+1)=AC 26 at 7th level after pending a mere 9800 (app.x) out of about 23,000 on magical armor and shield for a fighter.

This is not too unusual, no. Even if the fighter splurged and spent an 4000 on a Ring of Protection +1 and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 for an AC of 28, that finally might hamper his magical weapons of other magical gear - and that's without the magical buff of a Mage Armor spell.

Also, remember that the Eidolon has the vulnerability of the Summoner. While it may not seem like a vulnerability, when you start hammering on the Eidolon's summoner, he starts draining its hit points....and unlike the fighter, only the Summoner can heal the eidolon, and only if he has the spells memorized. Eidolons never heal naturally.

Liberty's Edge

Also, please double-check THE ENTIRETY of the summoner/eldiolon build. Many players make mistakes on the math (and some other players are drawn to the class because it's easy to "make mistakes" with the math). Odd are quite good that the eldiolon is either
a) absolutely terrible at attacking/dealing damage (sure it's got 3-4 attacks, but if the bonus is low or the damage is crap, that doesn't mean much).
b) statted up incorrectly, due the the aforementioned math errors.

See, these boards see lots and lots and LOTS of "eldiolon is overpowered" posts, and every single one of them - every single one - has, on further examination, proven to be one of the above. So I promise, I guarantee, that if you sit down and double-check absolutely every single statistic involved in this summoner/eldiolon, you will find one of the above.

The master min/maxer power-builders on these forums have done the math, and a Fighter with a greatsword will mop the floor with any eldiolon + summoner, regardless of buffs, even assuming the Fighter completely ignores the squishy mage until the eldiolon is down (which no Fighter - and none of your monsters - should ever do).

In fact, the min/maxers on these forums have determined that the most effective build for summoners is one that completely ignores the eldiolon entirely, and instead focuses on Summon Monster spells.

So, again, please double-check every single statistic of the summoner/eldiolon. I promise you'll find the problem.


+1, and I'd do it with an actual pencil. I haven't found a character making program that's error free.


BobChuck wrote:
In fact, the min/maxers on these forums have determined that the most effective build for summoners is one that completely ignores the eldiolon entirely, and instead focuses on Summon Monster spells.

This.

Of course, thats assuming that shady maths isn't being used :)


First off, welcome to the boards Hands out Rum

Now, if you could post up the build, I am sure people here would be happy to give it a once over. Once we know there are no mistakes, then you can address how to handle him.

Liberty's Edge

Oh, good. Someone's offered to analyze the build if it's posted. thank you. I was hoping someone would do that; the people here are awesome.

Personally, I know enough to realize that the eldiolon/summoner is easy to mess up (and thus commonly done so), but I also know enough to realize that I am not all that well suited to analyzing the build, which is why I didn't offer - I don't think I'd do a good job.


BobChuck wrote:
even assuming the Fighter completely ignores the squishy mage until the eldiolon is down (which no Fighter - and none of your monsters - should ever do).

The couple times I've run into summoners, the summoner was the achilles heel - just had any opponent with half a brain ignore the great and powerful Oz, and go after the man behind the curtain.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mnemaxa wrote:
....and unlike the fighter, only the Summoner can heal the eidolon, and only if he has the spells memorized. Eidolons never heal naturally.

This is wrong on several counts. First off, the Summoner does not memorize spells -- he either knows them or he doesn't and casts what he knows spontaneously. If his original spells did not include Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, the player is an idiot.

However -- the Summoner is not the only person who can heal the eidolon. Spells like Cure Light Wounds work just fine when cast on an eidolon, as does positive energy channeling from a Cleric. In fact, the latter effect has often made it unnecessary for my Summoner to cast his Rejuvenate Eidolon spells.

The real restriction is that the Summoner cannot magically heal anyone except for his eidolon.

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