Healing Domain and Breath of Life


Rules Questions

The Exchange

So, as it currently stands, the 6th level domain power does not enhance the healing powers of Breath of Life (or Heal for that matter). I was wondering if this was intentional because it seems kind of wrong to me.

The 8th level healing domain power states:

Healer's Blessing (Su) wrote:
At 6th level, all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered, increasing the amount of damage healed by half (+50%). This does not apply to damage dealt to undead with a cure spell. This does not stack with the Empower Spell metamagic feat.

Since it calls out cure spells, that means Breath of Life doesn't work with it because, from the GMs I have talked to about it (and even my own interpretation of the RAW), the spells this applies to has to have "cure" in the name. And for all intents and purposes, Breath of Life is just the 5d8 cure spell, it just has the added benefit of being able to bring someone back to life. I assume, that like the cure spells, this spell channels positive energy through you to heal (It also doesn't explicitly state that, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption, especially since it is the only conjuration (healing) spell that heals HP that doesn't explicitly state it channels positive energy. I think it was left out to explain what all Breath of Life can do that other spells can't).

I think that Healer's Blessing should instead read that "all of your spells from the conjuration(healing) school that channels positive energy are treated as if they were empowered."

Now, this does beef up the healing power of Heal, but let's face it: by the time you can cast that spell, you are healing pretty much anyone to full health (unless your characters are getting max health at every level, but I'm looking at this from a PFS perspective). The other side is that this does not empower spells like Lesser Restoration because even though they are conjuration (healing) spells, they do not state they channel positive energy to give their healing power.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

My understanding is the wording was deliberately designed to preclude Breath of Life from the free empower. The designers believed Breath of Life was such a good spell since it allowed for a chance to bypoass the need of Raise Dead, etc. that it did not need extra enhancements.

Doug

The Exchange

DougErvin wrote:

My understanding is the wording was deliberately designed to preclude Breath of Life from the free empower. The designers believed Breath of Life was such a good spell since it allowed for a chance to bypoass the need of Raise Dead, etc. that it did not need extra enhancements.

Doug

Do you have a quote on this? It is a good spell, but I think the limits that it is a touch spell and you have to cast it before the beginning of the dead character's next turn already make up for the lack of a need of Raise Dead. It also just doesn't make sense with how this domain was designed. If you look at all the domain spells and how they all function, I don't see why the domain ability is so limiting.


[url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/questionAboutBreathOfLife&page=1#6 wrote:

James Jacobs[/url]]In it's first incarnation (my homebrew game and the first version I submitted to Jason for the PFRPG), the spell was actually called "cure deadly wounds." Which let clerics swap spells out to cast it and dovetailed perfectly in with the other cure spells and effects that helped it.

Jason renamed it because he felt that the spell's ability to save people from death made it too powerful for clerics to be able to cast it all the time. Of course, by changing the name, it kind of turns the spell into a tax—no cleric should EVER be without a breath of life prepared, really.

The fact that the spell's a touch spell and that it has such a narrow window of application to save someone who's been killed is enough of a balance for it, I think, that renaming it cure deadly wounds and allowing it to work like a cure spell is fine. And if that means there's fewer PCs dying, that's fine with me. That's the whole reason I wrote the spell in the first place, because not only does it help prevent players from the lameness of sitting at the table being bored because a random die roll killed their character, but it actually serves as a MUCH less "world-breaking" solution to resurrection than raise dead.

So, RAW, breath of life is NOT a cure spell and doesn't get treated as one. In my games, though, it gets houseruled to be "cure deadly wounds" and things work fine. It's probably my #1 recommended house rule for the game, in fact... (and I don't actually have many house rules in my PFRPG games, to be honest).

I changed it back to cure deadly wounds in my games too.


Chiming in as Devil's Advocate...

Does that imply that an Oracle gets Breath of Life automatically (if gaining Cure Spells)?
If so, what about the Life Oracle (which has this specific spell on her Mystery Spell List)?


Joseph Caubo wrote:


Now, this does beef up the healing power of Heal,

Empower does nothing for heal as there is no randomness there, only a set amount cured by caster level.

-James


I agree with JJ´s preference on the original Cure Deadly Wounds terminology.
It´s not even about PCs, but if NPCs who blow a 5th level spell have a better chance at actually doing something (bringing ally back to life) rather than effectively wasting their action (if the healing wasn´t enough), or giving said NPC slightly more HP when they do pop back to life. I don´t see a problem with that either, really, so I DEFINITELY think it´s reasonable and balanced to use the CDW name, thus allowing spontaneous substition and compatability with effects like the OP mentioned. If somebody isn´t ready for the PCs´ opposition to also make use of such tactics, then I would say the spell shouldn´t be changed; If you´re OK with it for everybody, go for it!


Joseph Caubo wrote:
DougErvin wrote:

My understanding is the wording was deliberately designed to preclude Breath of Life from the free empower. The designers believed Breath of Life was such a good spell since it allowed for a chance to bypoass the need of Raise Dead, etc. that it did not need extra enhancements.

Doug

Do you have a quote on this? It is a good spell, but I think the limits that it is a touch spell and you have to cast it before the beginning of the dead character's next turn already make up for the lack of a need of Raise Dead. It also just doesn't make sense with how this domain was designed. If you look at all the domain spells and how they all function, I don't see why the domain ability is so limiting.

It great spell it so great I have not seen a raise dead memorized since pathfinder or revivity in 3.5.

The Exchange

Tom S 820 wrote:
It great spell it so great I have not seen a raise dead memorized since pathfinder or revivity in 3.5.

I always memorize 1 Raise Dead and 2 Breath of Life. I think I've only had [i}Breath of Life[/i] work twice out of the 6 or 7 times I've had to use it because most of the time the BBEGs will knock someone down into the -50 to -60 range. Once there, you better pray you roll all 8s or someone needs a Raise Dead anyway.

James, if you saw what I would originally change it to, you would realize how Heal would be empowered.

I do much prefer JJ's house rule and will employ that in my home campaign. I've actually decided that the new wording will be "most of your spells from the conjuration(healing) school that channels positive energy are treated as if they were empowered." I've thought about it and an empowered Heal for free is a bit much, especially since you don't roll for the HP healed - hence why I went with "most" instead of "all."


Joseph Caubo wrote:


James, if you saw what I would originally change it to, you would realize how Heal would be empowered.

I'm not following what you're saying here.. are you referencing another thread where you altered Heal to be a random amount?

-James

The Exchange

james maissen wrote:

I'm not following what you're saying here.. are you referencing another thread where you altered Heal to be a random amount?

-James

Actually, I see exactly what you're saying. Empowered only affects things that have variable, numeric effects. I did not realize that before, thus my lack of understanding of what you were getting at.

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