Is it possible to put barding on an Constrictor Snake Animal Companion?


Rules Questions

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If it took the proper armor proficiency feats. Its sized large so its x4 cost and x2 weight if it is possible.

The Exchange

Technically speaking, I see nothing wrong with it. RAW, that would be the proper pricing, but as a GM, I would probably increase price due to rarity alone. In any case, this is a rules question, so my answer is a yes.


I've seen weirder designs than body armor for a snake. Just segment it and it should be fine.


Of course, then there's the question of Armor Spikes. Would they be doable? If so, would they add to Constrict damage? A 20 foot long snake, clad in steel, with spiked armor crushing you to death would hurt like hell.


SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Of course, then there's the question of Armor Spikes. Would they be doable? If so, would they add to Constrict damage? A 20 foot long snake, clad in steel, with spiked armor crushing you to death would hurt like hell.

Too cool to be disallowed based on some flimsy pretext like reality. (and its raw legal to boot)


It is a fantasy game so if you think it or dream it then yes. Would I make cost more maybe than most barding maybe but, it to cool not to have in my fantasy game. Think how much harder Connan would have to work to kill the snake in dark tower. Or Loki tricks the dwarves in to making armor for Jörmungandr.

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I've seen weirder designs than body armor for a snake. Just segment it and it should be fine.

The huge constrictor moves relentlessly towards you, accompanied by the unsettling sound of metal scraping against stone, like a giant legless centipede with iron chitin.

It may be horribly unrealistic, but wow, it is a creepy idea!

Then again, just like quadrupeds have a bonus to their carrying capacity, I think I'd house rule that vermiforms have a penalty to carrying capacity, so heavier armor might be more trouble than it's worth...


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I dont see why they cant have barding. After all barding doesnt encase an animal (look at horse barding) so if you just armor key parts of the snake, sure go for it. Man armored elephants in the east, why not big snakes if they are tame enouhg (as they are in this case). I would definately say it had to be custom made though, there isnt going to be giant snake armor sitting on the smith's workshop shelf.

Liberty's Edge

harmor wrote:
If it took the proper armor proficiency feats. Its sized large so its x4 cost and x2 weight if it is possible.

Note that armor proficiency isn't required for the snake to wear barding. There are penalties for not being proficient, but these that penalty is zero from leather armor, masterwork studded leather, or mithral chain shirt.

Dark Archive

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Kolokotroni wrote:
I would definately say it had to be custom made though, there isnt going to be giant snake armor sitting on the smith's workshop shelf.

"Armor for a giant snake, you say? What a stroke of luck! I've had this fire giant codpiece lying around forever and I never thought I'd be able to get rid of it!"

"I mean, he ordered it, and then he never showed up. Normally, I'd say he stiffed me, but in this case, that just sounds wrong..."

Liberty's Edge

You can't put barding on a snake. That's not possible. You can say it's a fantasy game, or handwave it any way you want, and if that satisfies you, then go for it. It wouldn't satisfy me - I just find the idea ludicrous. Any armor the snake can move in is armor the snake can wriggle out of, and no way does a snake not wriggle out of armor.

Personally, as a GM, I wouldn't allow it. Snakes already have natural armor and barding just seems like an attempt at power-gaming.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gailbraithe wrote:

You can't put barding on a snake. That's not possible. You can say it's a fantasy game, or handwave it any way you want, and if that satisfies you, then go for it. It wouldn't satisfy me - I just find the idea ludicrous. Any armor the snake can move in is armor the snake can wriggle out of, and no way does a snake not wriggle out of armor.

Personally, as a GM, I wouldn't allow it. Snakes already have natural armor and barding just seems like an attempt at power-gaming.

Why exactly? Armored plates strapped over the top of the snake and its head for instance, it doesnt have to be an armored tube, aromor can take many forms, particularly if its trained to wear it (has armor proficiency).


Gailbraithe wrote:
You can't put barding on a snake. That's not possible.

Cloth armor

"hey, why are you knitting a thick giant sock?"

"Cuddles... demonstrate this for the nice man...."

"URK!"

Leather wouldn't be that much harder.

I can't see a reason that chain mail wouldn't work. (with plenty of padding underneath)

Scale mail would also seem to be possible.. and thematic.

Now if you get to plate armor and the like, i can see the problem. But we're talking about a world filled with 300 year old dwarves who consider metalworking a RELIGION and can make weapons so good they're literally magic with nothing but an anvil and a hammer.

Quote:
You can say it's a fantasy game, or handwave it any way you want, and if that satisfies you, then go for it. It wouldn't satisfy me - I just find the idea ludicrous. Any armor the snake can move in is armor the snake can wriggle out of, and no way does a snake not wriggle out of armor.

You make it tight in some places and loose in others. Its not absolutely free movement, but thats what the armor check penalty is for.

Dark Archive

Gailbraithe wrote:

You can't put barding on a snake. That's not possible. You can say it's a fantasy game, or handwave it any way you want, and if that satisfies you, then go for it. It wouldn't satisfy me - I just find the idea ludicrous. Any armor the snake can move in is armor the snake can wriggle out of, and no way does a snake not wriggle out of armor.

Personally, as a GM, I wouldn't allow it. Snakes already have natural armor and barding just seems like an attempt at power-gaming.

Scale mail strapped on and held in place via bit in the snakes mouth with some extra armor on the head. Flexible, yet hard to accidentally wiggle out of. (just an idea).

If the rules don't forbid it, I have a hard time saying no to creativity. :)


I'd say kudos for the creativity... but what about the continuity? As people have mentioned, where would the snake bear the weight? They slide out of their skin when they're shedding, and if anything is closer or more attached to their body than their skin, I dunno what it is.

Someone else mentioned mounting the armor through the mouth. the only precedent for that I can think of is a bit for a horse, or a nose-ring for a bull. The bit doesn't bear any weight, and a nose-ring is only effective because it's incredibly painful for the bull.


Gruuuu wrote:
They slide out of their skin when they're shedding, and if anything is closer or more attached to their body than their skin, I dunno what it is.

I agree to an extent, just wanted to note that snakes have to really work at shedding that skin - rubbing up against rough objects several times over to get it loose enough to slither out of. Skin is certainly different than armor, but they do have to want to slither out of out. It's not like the snake is trundling along and then, "Whoops! Where'd my skin go?!" Not trying to be inflammatory, I just couldn't resist the urge to make a funny.

More on-topic - I agree with the "too cool to pass up" crowd, for what it's worth.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Gailbraithe wrote:
You can't put barding on a snake. That's not possible.

You, Sir, have obviously not seen a sample of one of my Huge-sized "Mithral Chain Socks" :)


I believe this is also a case justifying the (in)famous fantasy/anime style of 'You really can't have enough Belts. No seriously, you need another strap or a belt there.'


Just rememember, if your GM allows you to do it, it's probably because you're going to run into a creature wearing it sometime in the future. (Or as my gaming group always says-Don't feed the GM ideas!)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I'm in the "nope; not realistic, the snake would just crawl out of the armor" camp.


James Jacobs wrote:
I'm in the "nope; not realistic, the snake would just crawl out of the armor" camp.

What happened to you, man? You used to be fun!

If loving snake barding is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
I'm in the "nope; not realistic, the snake would just crawl out of the armor" camp.

So what you are truly saying James is that snake animal companions can shed their fullplate armor as a swift action right? :) :P :P :P :)

Dark Archive

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James Jacobs wrote:
I'm in the "nope; not realistic, the snake would just crawl out of the armor" camp.

Careful you may smack yourself with that dire flail or cut yourself with that star knife...

I thought that part of the fun of a good fantasy RPG is the fantasy? There are many things in the game that are awesome, but would be just silly in real life (How many arrows can a professional archer get off in 6 seconds?).

Barding on a snake just gives me great visuals, plus it is no more overpowered than giving armor to any other animal companion.


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My personal ruling would be that no, it's not realistic at all, and therefore you may certainly have snake barding... as long as it's enchanted to at least +1.

Silver Crusade

I think this is a cool idea. However it has several things going against it:

1) I don't think the rules support it. Barding is clearly meant for creatures that traditionally serve as mounts. If you look at barding in the equipment guide the table for the speed reduction due to armor only goes down to 40 (note the snake has a 20 speed).

2) The mechanical problems noted above.

3) Your snake would have a terrible time trying to swim or climb in that armor. Its base speed in all forms will be reduced to 15 at best.

That said I think you could still implement it. The answer as always is Magic!

Enchanted snake barding could be made as several bent shield looking segments. It could have properties like sovereign glue in that you could use a command word to make it stick and at the end of the day to remove it. It would be a more expensive option but would cover the concerns above especially if you give the armor a slight haste component so your AC does not become even slower.


karkon wrote:
If you look at barding in the equipment guide the table for the speed reduction due to armor only goes down to 40 (note the snake has a 20 speed).

Well of course that chart only goes down to 40'. If you need speed reductions for 30' or 20', you've already got those from the charts for the effects of armor on PC speeds.


I've got a simple solution for those in the 'it's not realistic' camp.

Magic.

:)

Liberty's Edge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

I can't see a reason that chain mail wouldn't work. (with plenty of padding underneath)

...
You make it tight in some places and loose in others. Its not absolutely free movement, but thats what the armor check penalty is for.

Snakes move by udulating a continious series of muscles downt he length of their body. These are not bipeds or quadrapeds, they don't have a foot that they place down, pick up and place down again. Their entire underbody works against a surface, moving them forward. Wrap a snake in armor and it literally cannot move - except to move against the armor.

We can walk in shoes because we walk by lifting our feet and repositioning them with our legs. But imagine you walked by gripping the ground with your toes and pulling your foot forward. Wrap your foot in a shoe and suddenly you have no way of gripping the ground.

Happler wrote:
Scale mail strapped on and held in place via bit in the snakes mouth with some extra armor on the head. Flexible, yet hard to accidentally wiggle out of. (just an idea).

Snakes can move backwards just as easily as they move forward. A mouthpiece wouldn't work, it would just back away and wiggle out the tail end.

Plus, snakes are HIGHLY compressible, so you can't really strap something onto to them that they can't get out of - unless its so tight its actually cutting into them, in which case you'd kill the snake trying to armor it.

And finally, it's physically impossible to build a flexible tube that captures both ends of the snake and it can't wiggle out of.

I've owned many snakes over the years (constrictors in particular - I've got a royal python named Kaa at the moment), and if you spend any time handling them, you'd realize very quickly how completely ridiculous this idea is. Iron cobras may look cool, but armored snakes is really pushing the Rule of Cool past the breaking point.

Again, as a GM I'd never allow it, and as a player I wouldn't try it, and if another player at the same table was allowed to do it, it might be enough to make me leave. I get that some people think its cool, but I can only assume those people have never actually held a snake in their hands and felt it move, because the whole idea is absurd. It would completely ruin my ability to take the game seriously. If that kind of think were allowed, I'd expect my character to be able to lift himself out of a pit by grabbing his own collar and pulling hard - because clearly the basics of reality have no place in such a game.


Note that barding doesn't necessarily have to be metal armor. What about dragonhide? Perhaps modified/enchanted so that it clung to the snake like, well, skin. Would it be pricey? Sure. But it would still be pretty cool, and not look half bad to have your snake companion clad in the armored hide of a red dragon.


Maybe snake barding would need to be magic to work, but at that point I don't see why it couldn't.

This is the same game where a bard can mime you being in an invisible box and if you fail a Will save, you believe it.

Liberty's Edge

Dire Mongoose wrote:

Maybe snake barding would need to be magic to work, but at that point I don't see why it couldn't.

This is the same game where a bard can mime you being in an invisible box and if you fail a Will save, you believe it.

"Ahhh, I can't get out! Maybe my metal-clad snake friend can crush this box for me!"

Haha, no but seriously, it's fantasy - get over it. The "but it's not realistic!" argument goes out the freakin' window the second any PC or NPC takes a single level in at least half the classes.

Dark Archive

Gailbraithe, we are not talking about un-trained snakes. We are talking about snakes who are trained and who want to remain in the armor. Also, the armor does not have to wrap the entire body, I vision more of a top covering and the underbelly left uncovered (other then maybe some straps). Most barding does not cover the animal from head to toe like full plate.

I, also, assume that you do not have a near, or fully, magical bond with your snakes and regularly take your snakes into combat with you. I view an animal companion as a much more intelligent version of the normal animal that has a magical or near magical link to it's owner/friend and is willing and trained to wear the armor into combat.

And this quote

Gailbraithe wrote:


Again, as a GM I'd never allow it, and as a player I wouldn't try it, and if another player at the same table was allowed to do it, it might be enough to make me leave. I get that some people think its cool, but I can only assume those people have never actually held a snake in their hands and felt it move, because the whole idea is absurd. It would completely ruin my ability to take the game seriously.

makes me happy that I do not game with you. Also, the fact that you could be attacked by a Giant Anaconda which is fully 28 ft longer then the Guinness book of records longest snake (32' in 2008) does not mess with you any? Or that you could have a conversation with a tree (either a trent or an awakened one)?


Austin Morgan wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:

Maybe snake barding would need to be magic to work, but at that point I don't see why it couldn't.

This is the same game where a bard can mime you being in an invisible box and if you fail a Will save, you believe it.

"Ahhh, I can't get out! Maybe my metal-clad snake friend can crush this box for me!"

Haha, no but seriously, it's fantasy - get over it. The "but it's not realistic!" argument goes out the freakin' window the second any PC or NPC takes a single level in at least half the classes.

This argument is such rediculous bs. I pretty much refuse to play with players who think like you, and I have no shortage of people to play with. Just because magic exists in the world does not mean that mundane things should get to ignore physics.


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AKA, "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things."


Quote:
Snakes move by udulating a continious series of muscles downt he length of their body. These are not bipeds or quadrapeds, they don't have a foot that they place down, pick up and place down again. Their entire underbody works against a surface, moving them forward. Wrap a snake in armor and it literally cannot move - except to move against the armor.

And the armor moves against the ground. The animal companion is an exceptional member of its species as much as a PC is, and taking the feat indicates some sort of training, from a human being who can talk to it no less.

Rectilinial motion might cause the problems you're suggesting, but side winders would have no trouble in a sock , and the snake could always do a scrunch and contract motion instead.

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~brm2286/locomotn.htm

Quote:

Plus, snakes are HIGHLY compressible, so you can't really strap something onto to them that they can't get out of - unless its so tight its actually cutting into them, in which case you'd kill the snake trying to armor it.

.

This assumes the snake wants to get out of the armor. I've seen a black rat snakes with things stuck to or wrapped around them before. (thats what happens when you go for the big rats in the dumpsters)

Quote:
And finally, it's physically impossible to build a flexible tube that captures both ends of the snake and it can't wiggle out of

Glue it on at a few key points? Or just magic it on at a few key points.

Quote:
I've owned many snakes over the years (constrictors in particular - I've got a royal python named Kaa at the moment), and if you spend any time handling them, you'd realize very quickly how completely ridiculous this idea is. Iron cobras may look cool, but armored snakes is really pushing the Rule of Cool past the breaking point.

I've never owned one (couldn't do that to the mice mostly) but i've carried a fair number of black rat snakes, garter snakes , and had an eastern water-snake decide i was warm enough to sleep on for a bit.

It doesn't seem like an insurmountable engineering problem. At the very worst you could put steel plates every few feet with an exposed belly (probably the equivalent of breastplate).

Quote:
Again, as a GM I'd never allow it, and as a player I wouldn't try it, and if another player at the same table was allowed to do it, it might be enough to make me leave.

DM: Ok, you've slain the dragon. It will take a week for the grateful peasants to haul all the gold into the bank. What are you doing?

Player 1: I'm going to turn into a dragon and give the peasants a fright.

Player 2: I'm going to hit the local graveyard and raise up an army of undead.

Player 3: I'm going to use my diplomacy roll of 165 to convert an angel to Asmodeus.

Player 4: I'm going to put on my plate armor and swim up a waterfall for exercise.

Player 5: I'm going to get armor for my snake.

Also, it would be nice if druids were encouraged to get something OTHER than a big cat or velociraptor with pounce. If the player was trying to min max, he'd have one of those instead.

Sovereign Court

Caineach wrote:
Austin Morgan wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:

Maybe snake barding would need to be magic to work, but at that point I don't see why it couldn't.

This is the same game where a bard can mime you being in an invisible box and if you fail a Will save, you believe it.

"Ahhh, I can't get out! Maybe my metal-clad snake friend can crush this box for me!"

Haha, no but seriously, it's fantasy - get over it. The "but it's not realistic!" argument goes out the freakin' window the second any PC or NPC takes a single level in at least half the classes.

This argument is such rediculous bs. I pretty much refuse to play with players who think like you, and I have no shortage of people to play with. Just because magic exists in the world does not mean that mundane things should get to ignore physics.

but you don't ban star knives and dire flails?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

a google search for snake armor revealed this, so yeah! such things are completely realistic, so take that, naysayers! :P

Liberty's Edge

Happler wrote:
I, also, assume that you do not have a near, or fully, magical bond with your snakes and regularly take your snakes into combat with you. I view an animal companion as a much more intelligent version of the normal animal that has a magical or near magical link to it's owner/friend and is willing and trained to wear the armor into combat.

I personally don't have a problem with snakes in armor. However, animal companions are provided through an Ex ability. The bond is not magical nor even near magical; YMMV. The animal is only more intelligent than normal if putting ability bumps into intelligence. A snake is inherently Intelligence 1 and will take 2 ability bumps to get out of animal intelligence. To whatever degree of training the snake has, I don't understand it to want armor nor even be willing.

To whatever level we disagree about what an AC is like or its motivation for wearing armor, the primary point for this conversation should be that there are multiple ways to come to the decision that snakes in armor is fine. And for those who disagree, that's cool. There are lots of ways to play and part of the fun for me is in seeing those different perspectives, regardless of my personal preferences.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
AKA, "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things."

I find this really amusing considering how much fighters DOMINATE EVERY GAME I HAVE EVER PLAYED IN.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Happler wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I'm in the "nope; not realistic, the snake would just crawl out of the armor" camp.

Careful you may smack yourself with that dire flail or cut yourself with that star knife...

I thought that part of the fun of a good fantasy RPG is the fantasy? There are many things in the game that are awesome, but would be just silly in real life (How many arrows can a professional archer get off in 6 seconds?).

Barding on a snake just gives me great visuals, plus it is no more overpowered than giving armor to any other animal companion.

Ruleswise, giving barding to a snake is absolutely not any more overpowered or underpowered than giving armor to any other animal companion.

It's just silly looking to me. Like putting shoes on a dog or a hat on a fish.

Make the rule as you will in your games, just don't expect to see any armored snakes show up in print is all.

Starknives don't seem silly to me. I can imagine them being wielded and/or thrown in combat.

But a snake in armor? Nope. Silly.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

more snake armor goodness:

no way!

this can't be!

I can't believe it's not butter!!!! you think this snake is eating another snake? no!!! it is the other snake climbing within its snake hide armor!!! LOL!!

Dark Archive

Caineach wrote:
Austin Morgan wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:

Maybe snake barding would need to be magic to work, but at that point I don't see why it couldn't.

This is the same game where a bard can mime you being in an invisible box and if you fail a Will save, you believe it.

"Ahhh, I can't get out! Maybe my metal-clad snake friend can crush this box for me!"

Haha, no but seriously, it's fantasy - get over it. The "but it's not realistic!" argument goes out the freakin' window the second any PC or NPC takes a single level in at least half the classes.

This argument is such rediculous bs. I pretty much refuse to play with players who think like you, and I have no shortage of people to play with. Just because magic exists in the world does not mean that mundane things should get to ignore physics.

Do you ban the orc doubleaxe and the double sword as well? Or shooting a longbow 4 times with rapid shot and manyshot?


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James Jacobs wrote:
Happler wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I'm in the "nope; not realistic, the snake would just crawl out of the armor" camp.

Careful you may smack yourself with that dire flail or cut yourself with that star knife...

I thought that part of the fun of a good fantasy RPG is the fantasy? There are many things in the game that are awesome, but would be just silly in real life (How many arrows can a professional archer get off in 6 seconds?).

Barding on a snake just gives me great visuals, plus it is no more overpowered than giving armor to any other animal companion.

Ruleswise, giving barding to a snake is absolutely not any more overpowered or underpowered than giving armor to any other animal companion.

It's just silly looking to me. Like putting shoes on a dog or a hat on a fish.

Make the rule as you will in your games, just don't expect to see any armored snakes show up in print is all.

Starknives don't seem silly to me. I can imagine them being wielded and/or thrown in combat.

But a snake in armor? Nope. Silly.

Many of the weapons and armor I see in fantasy art defy the laws of physics, engineering and/or smart design. This is stuff designed for humans. The swords and axes look cool, but if someone tried to make one and actually hit something with it, it would either be too unwieldy or break too easily. Armor is often shown with flourishes and details that would end up catching weapons, which would result in deadlier blows (armor is usually designed to allow blows to be deflected off so the full impact is not felt).

There are weapons presented that would have no use at all, like the double sword. There is virtually no way that would be a useful weapon except through sheer luck.

From a realism perspective, the majority of equipment depicted in fantasy art is silly.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Irontruth wrote:

Many of the weapons and armor I see in fantasy art defy the laws of physics, engineering and/or smart design. This is stuff designed for humans. The swords and axes look cool, but if someone tried to make one and actually hit something with it, it would either be too unwieldy or break too easily. Armor is often shown with flourishes and details that would end up catching weapons, which would result in deadlier blows (armor is usually designed to allow blows to be deflected off so the full impact is not felt).

There are weapons presented that would have no use at all, like the double sword. There is virtually no way that would be a useful weapon except through sheer luck.

From a realism perspective, the majority of equipment depicted in fantasy art is silly.

Still... snakes lack shoulders. Makes it hard for them to NOT crawl out of armor.

Also, a snake uses its entire body to move in a way that doesn't lend itself well to armor. A snake wearing armor would be akin to a human wearing a barrel with no leg holes. In other words... he's not benefiting from armor as much as he is benefiting from cover.


So... what you're saying is it wouldn't stack with the Constrictor Snake Tower Shield that's part 2 of the plan.

Shadow Lodge

This thread makes TOZ sad.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

I think James is having a bad day... what possessed him to even comment on this thread??? :)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Next thread: cat boots, bat horseshoes and horse's hats!

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Many of the weapons and armor I see in fantasy art defy the laws of physics, engineering and/or smart design. This is stuff designed for humans. The swords and axes look cool, but if someone tried to make one and actually hit something with it, it would either be too unwieldy or break too easily. Armor is often shown with flourishes and details that would end up catching weapons, which would result in deadlier blows (armor is usually designed to allow blows to be deflected off so the full impact is not felt).

There are weapons presented that would have no use at all, like the double sword. There is virtually no way that would be a useful weapon except through sheer luck.

From a realism perspective, the majority of equipment depicted in fantasy art is silly.

Still... snakes lack shoulders. Makes it hard for them to NOT crawl out of armor.

Also, a snake uses its entire body to move in a way that doesn't lend itself well to armor. A snake wearing armor would be akin to a human wearing a barrel with no leg holes. In other words... he's not benefiting from armor as much as he is benefiting from cover.

This is one of those arguments about how you run your game, and I run mine and how they are different. Neither side will win, as both are right.

Back to the original, there is nothing in the rules as written that stop there from being barding for snakes, but there is a good chance that it will cost more since it is very unusual. Also, if the GM says that it does not exist, then it does not.

Dark Archive

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Next thread: cat boots, bat horseshoes and horse's hats!

Even horses need something to keep the sun off. :P

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