Ways to make perception a class skill?


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

KrispyXIV wrote:
The fact that Perception is the most broadly applicable seems reasonable to me; different skills are not equally valuable; for instance, consider that a rank in Stealth and a rank in Profession (baker) have the same cost to a character. Are they equally valuable? No. Is that necessarily a problem? I dont think so.

I have an extra skill point. Where should I spend it?

If the answer is "it depends," then I have a real and meaningful choice. That's fun.

If the answer is "Perception," then I have a false choice; I can either choose to suck or not. That's no fun.


InVinoVeritas wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
The fact that Perception is the most broadly applicable seems reasonable to me; different skills are not equally valuable; for instance, consider that a rank in Stealth and a rank in Profession (baker) have the same cost to a character. Are they equally valuable? No. Is that necessarily a problem? I dont think so.

I have an extra skill point. Where should I spend it?

If the answer is "it depends," then I have a real and meaningful choice. That's fun.

If the answer is "Perception," then I have a false choice; I can either choose to suck or not. That's no fun.

It ain't extra if you haven't got perception yet. :P

Greg

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
InVinoVeritas wrote:

I have an extra skill point. Where should I spend it?

If the answer is "it depends," then I have a real and meaningful choice. That's fun.

If the answer is "Perception," then I have a false choice; I can either choose to suck or not. That's no fun.

You can actually have a character with absolutely no bonus to perception and not suck. There are more things than perception to be good at and not anyone can cover all of them.

Shadow Lodge

I'm sure there's a trait for it, but really, it's not a big deal anymore. You're a few points behind someone who does have it as a class skill. It's not like in 3.X where you could literally only be half as good as someone with it as their class skill.


LazarX wrote:
You can actually have a character with absolutely no bonus to perception and not suck. There are more things than perception to be good at and not anyone can cover all of them.

Absolutely true.

There are also ways to mitigate the need for it even for perceiving things; simple stuff like Darkvision can negate some of the more common ways of gaining concealment, etc.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

KrispyXIV wrote:
LazarX wrote:
You can actually have a character with absolutely no bonus to perception and not suck. There are more things than perception to be good at and not anyone can cover all of them.

Absolutely true.

There are also ways to mitigate the need for it even for perceiving things; simple stuff like Darkvision can negate some of the more common ways of gaining concealment, etc.

Or just always stay within 5 feet of the party perceiver. ;)


LazarX wrote:


You can actually have a character with absolutely no bonus to perception and not suck. There are more things than perception to be good at and not anyone can cover all of them.

That's kind of a strawman -- the argument isn't that you automatically suck if you're bad at Perception, it's that putting a skill point in Perception is almost always better than all of your other options.

I once saw an interesting / sort of powerful 3.5E fighter with a 6 CON. The existance of that character doesn't imply that dumping CON is a mechanically terrible choice for 99% of fighters, just as the existance of decent characters with 0 Perception doesn't mean that raising it isn't the mechanically smart choice for 99% of characters.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
LazarX wrote:


You can actually have a character with absolutely no bonus to perception and not suck. There are more things than perception to be good at and not anyone can cover all of them.

That's kind of a strawman -- the argument isn't that you automatically suck if you're bad at Perception, it's that putting a skill point in Perception is almost always better than all of your other options.

I once saw an interesting / sort of powerful 3.5E fighter with a 6 CON. The existance of that character doesn't imply that dumping CON is a mechanically terrible choice for 99% of fighters, just as the existance of decent characters with 0 Perception doesn't mean that raising it isn't the mechanically smart choice for 99% of characters.

I'd argue this based on the fact that you'll almost never be better off putting ranks into Profession (baker), and yet there are valid reasons to do so.

Namely, not all skills are equally valuable, but you dont always put points in skills based on their value; in fact, you really should be allocating skills based on what your character should be good at.


KrispyXIV wrote:
in fact, you really should be allocating skills based on what your character should be good at.

Well, sure. And politicians should be honest and always strive to serve the best interests of their constituents without regard for personal gain or re-election.

In both cases, I choose to react to the world as it is, not as I'd like it to be.

Ultimately, even if you feel that only characters who would be good at Perception will have it high (or if, as a GM, you enforce that), what you end up with in most games are a lot of characters who have justifications for high Perception and none who have justifications for high Profession (Baker).


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Ultimately, even if you feel that only characters who would be good at Perception will have it high (or if, as a GM, you enforce that), what you end up with in most games are a lot of characters who have justifications for high Perception and none who have justifications for high Profession (Baker).

To be fair, being Perceptive IS appropriate for a very large percentile of the adventuring crowd; its almost always in character to take if you make your living raiding tombs and fighting the forces of evil.

But thats not to say I haven't had characters take skills for fluff, or pass them by for similiar reasons. In particular, I've seen people with max ranks in Profession (miner) and characters who specifically went out of their way to be oblivious. Without being cripples, to boot!

Shadow Lodge

InVinoVeritas wrote:

I have an extra skill point. Where should I spend it?

If the answer is "it depends," then I have a real and meaningful choice. That's fun.

If the answer is "Perception," then I have a false choice; I can either choose to suck or not. That's no fun.

Leaving things like Profession(Baker) aside, is the answer something like, "Maybe Acrobatics. Or Stealth. Or Perception. Or Spellcraft." or is it something like "Perception."?


InVinoVeritas wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:

I have an extra skill point. Where should I spend it?

If the answer is "it depends," then I have a real and meaningful choice. That's fun.

If the answer is "Perception," then I have a false choice; I can either choose to suck or not. That's no fun.

Leaving things like Profession(Baker) aside, is the answer something like, "Maybe Acrobatics. Or Stealth. Or Perception. Or Spellcraft." or is it something like "Perception."?

All of the options you've listed are good. I'd add Escape Artist (for low BAB characters) and Use Magic Device to the list of skills which every character probably wants, though, as well as at least one interaction skill of choice. And maybe Sense Motive. And enough Knowledges that you can figure out whats going to be immune to your common combat abilities.

I dont think you can really have enough skill points.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

HEY YOU LEAVE CLEDWYN ALONE ALL YOU BAKER-HATERS!!!

;)

Liberty's Edge

Would your GM allow a trait like this?

Possible trait wrote:


Unusual Upbringing (social)
You were raised in a way unlike most members of your class. Pick one skill; that skill is a class skill for you.

Other traits that add class skills specify which skills become class skills, but also add a bonus to one or two skills. I think the trade-off is reasonable.


You could always take the adopted trait then take Goblin parents with Balloon Headed. Just claim they ate your parents, were gonna eat you, but your oversized head reminded them too much of themselves and the little gobbos they never had.

Scarab Sages

Inner Sea World Guide wrote:


Hermean Blood
You are the descendant of someone recruited to Hermea or the bastard result of a Hermean’s illicit pairing with someone foreign to that land.

Prerequisites: You may only gain this feat at 1st level.

Benefit: Though you may not know it, the blood of greatness flows in your veins. Pick two skills that share the same associated ability score. Those skills are always considered class skills for you. It’s possible that Hermean agents may come looking for you, either to evaluate you for an invitation or to cover up an embarrassing dalliance, as determined by the GM’s whim.

I know you'd rather not spend a feat, but that one would also give you another Wisdom skill like Sense Motive or Survival to go with Perception, and in a home game, it's also an interesting plot hook for the GM. If you're in PFS or playing with a GM that doesn't care to add things to an AP, then Cosmopolitan would also give a pair of class skills and trade in the plot hook for a couple languages.

I've heard it put forth that Perception has become too important, leading some GMs to just turn it into a level+stat check, like what was done with Wild Empathy, but for all classes.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:
... but really, it's not a big deal anymore. You're a few points behind someone who does have it as a class skill. It's not like in 3.X where you could literally only be half as good as someone with it as their class skill.

This. +1.

Scarab Sages

Dare I say that some classes have perception, and some do not. I for one do not like to get into the 'my perception is bigger than yours' mentality, and figure if my cleric only has a +3 perception, 3 or more other people will take up the slack on it I am sure.

In short, some classes are better at it than others. Lets live with it shall we?


I am really surprised no one noticed this trait before:

Militant Merchant

Just take the adopted trait and be raised by a dwarven merchant. Not a bad character idea, as a side note.

Scarab Sages

Indivar wrote:

Dare I say that some classes have perception, and some do not. I for one do not like to get into the 'my perception is bigger than yours' mentality, and figure if my cleric only has a +3 perception, 3 or more other people will take up the slack on it I am sure.

In short, some classes are better at it than others. Lets live with it shall we?

It depends on how often the GM does the surprise round thing. Getting dead because you missed a surprise check and you were still flat-footed for a few hits before your first turn is just no fun.

Dead characters can't just "live with it".


*passes the munchkin hat*

Hey, that's mine! *swipe*


TheReaperD wrote:

*passes the munchkin hat*

Hey, that's mine! *swipe*

AHHH! After five years I'm free!

Time to conquer . . . GOLARION!


The Revelation subdomain for the Sun domain offers perception as a class skill with a sacred bonus to finding hidden stuff to boot. Since this available to a wisdom dependent ckass, this makes the skill even more useful.

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