I have a player in my game who loves to take one or two skills per character that link directly to some background detail and not necessarily related to something for their class. This time it is Craft (painting) with the idea that his character can draw, sketch and create works of art.
So after looking over the skill description I am left wondering how Craft (painting) relates to the rules as provide. How does a die role reflect in the quality of the art item? What is the DC of say making a really great sketch of someone? What is the effect of making a masterwork painting?
Also the costs to me don't work as it is just canvas and paint, better paints and canvas isn't the same as making a weapon with special materials. Though I am not too concerned with that as I know the player won't abuse this as a money making scheme.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
It helps you use the wondrous item: Marvelous Pigments.
I suppose I will have to do some hand-waving with this one. I know the player will use the skill to sketch NPCs and use his talents with charcoal in an attempt to impress them so I guess I just treat as a Diplomacy roll instead.
Craft: Painting allows to to apply a protective or cosmetic coating to structures, vehicles, and the like.
What you're looking for is Profession: Visual Artist (Paintings).
No, really, I'm not entirely joking.
-Kle.
Yes I think you are probably right on this one as it just doesn't seem to fit the crafting rules, except that something is actually created.
Another way to handle it would be as a Perform skill, (Perform: Artistic Painting for example). Perform already has rules for quality of performance, it just would require days or weeks instead of minutes or hours to complete the 'performance'. Unless you're that guy from the old painting show that can whip out a painting in an hour or less. (Happy little tree here!)
(Happy little tree here!)
LOL...Yes I've seen that guy on TV.
That leads to another question how long does it take a skilled painter to finish a painting?
I am not a painter and only draw doodles so I have no reference to draw from that tells me what is an acceptable amount of time to complete a painting.
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Unless you're that guy from the old painting show that can whip out a painting in an hour or less. (Happy little tree here!)
Bob Ross was his name. He had a squirrel familiar, and gave pretty decent tricks, actually.
That leads to another question how long does it take a skilled painter to finish a painting?
I am not a painter and only draw doodles so I have no reference to draw from that tells me what is an acceptable amount of time to complete a painting.
Depends, really. You can do nice paintings under 3 hours, though you can add and add and add to the detail up to 15-20 hours if you like, maybe more. Depends on experience, the size of the painting, and the type; obviously, a landscape painting is completed way faster than one depicting two armies fighting, for example. The amount of details and different colors make all the difference.
(Happy little tree here!)LOL...Yes I've seen that guy on TV.
That leads to another question how long does it take a skilled painter to finish a painting?
I am not a painter and only draw doodles so I have no reference to draw from that tells me what is an acceptable amount of time to complete a painting.
Depends on the artist and the subject--some of the Masters took months working on still lifes, but animate subjects (like models) tend to change over too long a time, and getting the exact same pose was difficult time and time again, so they would do a rough sketch and then proceed from there. Long story short, as long as the Patron was paying, they'd take as long as they wanted to. For starving artists, probably about a week per painting.
Profession: painter would be for painting walls/ships etc.
Craft:painting would be for making paintings. The primary end result of a craft skill is the object itself. The point of painting is to end up with the picture.
The crafting rules allow joe the untrained peasant to work on something indefinitely until its worth 100, 1,000, or even 1,000,000 gold peices. (if the peasant is an elf)
How does a die role reflect in the quality of the art item?
it would not. It would determine how fast you can make something of a given quality.
What is the DC of say making a really great sketch of someone?
Probably 15, a high quality item. 20 would be absolutely amazing.
At 40 the mere sight of the painting would convert people to your religion, and a 60 looking at it would convert demon's to Iomedae.
What is the effect of making a masterwork painting?
A painting can't be made masterwork, since the painting itself doesn't do anything. A really good painting might be a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy... or more if you're using it for a bribe
What is the effect of making a masterwork painting?A painting can't be made masterwork, since the painting itself doesn't do anything. A really good painting might be a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy... or more if you're using it for a bribe
Which is why I would use the Perform skill rather than craft, to determine the quality of the overall work.
Which is why I would use the Perform skill rather than craft, to determine the quality of the overall work.
What is the effect of making a masterwork painting?A painting can't be made masterwork, since the painting itself doesn't do anything. A really good painting might be a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy... or more if you're using it for a bribe
If you judged a work based off an artists personality, by all accounts no one would like anything Michelangelo did.
You could always just use the first, or an average, of the d20 +skill rolls if you need a number to compare it to.
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Per CRAFTING rules (as broke as they are) you set a value for the painting and work on it until it's done. Your rolls only state how fast the painting is accomplished, not how good the quality is.
I'd suggest, given the nature of art, it could be reasonable to invert this process. Instead of deciding its value then working 'til it's done, decide how long you want to work on the painting. Make Craft rolls for that period of time, and then see how much it ends up being worth.
Still thinking about this and wondering if I could use degrees of success to indicate quality. So say a simple street portrait has at DC 10 (produces a good sketch), and of every 5-points above the DC the PC rolls the quality goes up from good to excellent to amazing and so on.
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Tangent warning!
If you want to make it relevant to the game, and not in a 'make some cash in the down-time' sense, you could have his ability to sketch things become important when the group is in some place where they need to record some visual information;
1) instructions on how to stop a McGuffin recorded on a stone mosaic that can't be taken from the location, and they don't necessarily understand, requiring them to sketch it out and bring it to an expert to translate / figure out / explain to them.
2) the face of a man prophesied / seen in a vision, to be a killer (or the only one who can save us! Flash! Ah ah!).
3) the anatomy of an unidentified monster that needs to be sketched and brought to an expert who will tell people what it is, and, more importantly, how to kill one
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The crafting rules allow joe the untrained peasant to work on something indefinitely until its worth 100, 1,000, or even 1,000,000 gold peices.
I don't think that's true. You still have to actually role a Craft check at least equal to the Craft DC in order to make progress at all.
If you think the ability to make a masterpiece painting worth 1,000 gp should require a truly masterful painter, then set the DC high enough -- say, 30 or higher. Someone with a +10 to their check could still create a masterpiece after years of work and many discarded canvases, but a master painter with a +20 could make them reliably given enough time.
A painting can't be made masterwork, since the painting itself doesn't do anything. A really good painting might be a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy... or more if you're using it for a bribe
I don't see anything in the game that says anything can't be Masterwork. You can buy a MW backpack, a MW staff, a MW set of tools.
There may be no mechanical benefit for something being MW within the rules, but that's because it needs to be vague so it can be a GM decision. For example, if someone had MW clothing, I would give them a +2 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy for example. A MW painting could provide a +2 diplomacy bonus if it's on your wall during negotiations, based on who you're negotiating with (making a good impression, refined tastes, etc).
Still thinking about this and wondering if I could use degrees of success to indicate quality. So say a simple street portrait has at DC 10 (produces a good sketch), and of every 5-points above the DC the PC rolls the quality goes up from good to excellent to amazing and so on.
That's how it works for the Perform skill, which is probably a good way to deal with street painting.
For the Craft skill, the usual rule is that you set the DC ahead of time, and either you succeed or you don't. This is actually neat, as it lets the player decide whether to take a risk to get a better painting and maybe end up failing -- he can make a very good sketch every time by taking 10, or decide whether to risk an excellent sketch that he'd need at least a 13 to pull off.
I don't see anything in the game that says anything can't be Masterwork. You can buy a MW backpack, a MW staff, a MW set of tools.
A painting can't be made masterwork, since the painting itself doesn't do anything. A really good painting might be a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy... or more if you're using it for a bribe
For functional items, Masterwork represents superior craftsmanship that makes the item work better for what it does.
Because art objects can already be of any value, there's no need to consider a "Masterwork" component to them. There's no reason to have any mechanical difference between a masterwork 200 gp painting and a non-masterwork 500 gp painting. It's a meaningless distinction.
I don't see anything in the game that says anything can't be Masterwork. You can buy a MW backpack, a MW staff, a MW set of tools.
A painting can't be made masterwork, since the painting itself doesn't do anything. A really good painting might be a +2 circumstance bonus on diplomacy... or more if you're using it for a bribe
For functional items, Masterwork represents superior craftsmanship that makes the item work better for what it does.
Because art objects can already be of any value, there's no need to consider a "Masterwork" component to them. There's no reason to have any mechanical difference between a masterwork 200 gp painting and a non-masterwork 500 gp painting. It's a meaningless distinction.
I find that odd, considering that in the real world we call a Van Gogh or a Davinci a 'Masterpiece'. And if you are someone with knowledge about art, seeing an original Davinci or Van Gogh on someone's wall while talking to them really raises your appreciation of their tastes. It becomes a status symbol. I'm a tyro when it comes to artwork, but I'm impressed if someone tells me the splotchy squiggles on the wall are a Davinci or Van Gogh, and I believe them.
MW on a painting would indicate superior craftsmanship of the painting, anyone can paint a woman smiling, very few people can paint the Mona Lisa.
The crafting rules allow joe the untrained peasant to work on something indefinitely until its worth 100, 1,000, or even 1,000,000 gold peices.I don't think that's true. You still have to actually role a Craft check at least equal to the Craft DC in order to make progress at all.
Make a dc 10 (basic quality) mural on the Great Wall of China.
ALL of it.
If you want to be this player's bestest GM ever, you should run this painter-specific module: Gallery of Evil
If you want to be this player's bestest GM ever, you should run this painter-specific module: Gallery of Evil
I had not thought of that, thanks! I think I will have to work that adventure in now. We are playing through PFS modules and a few adventures (or bits of adventures) as a campaign (not PFS).
How bout magic paintings (introduce a magic item creation feat), up to creating whole worlds or at least portals to worlds by painting them? (compare to the Dnii of the Myst game series)
Or how about paint-conjuring? Making sketches of some warriors that come alive, paint yourself armory...
Unless you're that guy from the old painting show that can whip out a painting in an hour or less. (Happy little tree here!)Bob Ross was his name. He had a squirrel familiar, and gave pretty decent tricks, actually.
The guy is just perfect when you want to relax ^^
If you judged a work based off an artists personality, by all accounts no one would like anything Michelangelo did.
Comparing real world persons to PnP chars ist quite troublesome in this context - d20 has a high variance of rolls while in the real world, it's quite unlikely (near zero) for an untalented amateur to beat a pro at painting (it gets unrealistic like in The Gamers when the high strength barbarian fails a str roll and the low strength elf suceeds), also heroes tend to have the best stats all around (no master minded savant expert beating them)
But it's a good question: on what ability should one center painting? CHA, INT, WIS? even DEX is not that far since you need to be precise
I find that odd, considering that in the real world we call a Van Gogh or a Davinci a 'Masterpiece'. And if you are someone with knowledge about art, seeing an original Davinci or Van Gogh on someone's wall while talking to them really raises your appreciation of their tastes. It becomes a status symbol. I'm a tyro when it comes to artwork, but I'm impressed if someone tells me the splotchy squiggles on the wall are a Davinci or Van Gogh, and I believe them.
Can you give me an example, then, of two paintings that would be valued at the same price, but one is MW and the other isn't?
In D&D or in the real world, the quality of the artwork is included in its valuation. Crafting to make the "masterwork component" of a piece of art is silly; you should just have the higher DC and longer crafting time to make a more expensive piece.
The notion that there could be a 350 gp painting that's a masterpiece, and a 10,000 gp painting that's not, is ludicrous to me.
The crafting rules allow joe the untrained peasant to work on something indefinitely until its worth 100, 1,000, or even 1,000,000 gold peices.I don't think that's true. You still have to actually role a Craft check at least equal to the Craft DC in order to make progress at all.Make a dc 10 (basic quality) mural on the Great Wall of China.
ALL of it.
Good point! I'll concede the possibility of low-DC art objects that can nonetheless become very expensive due to some other factor, such as extreme size.
However, most folks would probably either consider the project as a bunch of normal murals, breaking up the craft DC and value accordingly, or raise the DC to accomodate for actually designing a single mural that encompasses such a ridiculous space.
A master work painting cost
500 for Tiny or smaller
1000 for small
2000 for medium
3000 for large
4000 for huge
6000 for gargantuan
8000 for colossal
This is for portraits of creatures but they give a baseline for Gms
I have them from Trompe L’oeil 's crafting requirements.
Be aware that evil spirits can posses masterwork paintings, they will try to replace the original so just be aware if you like self portraits
I am only 11 years too late dont mind me
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LOL.
Keep in mind that with Craft (painting) you make a technically perfect painting, not necessarily something that is a great artwork.
With the skill alone you can make a perfect copy of The Birth of Venus, but it is not guaranteed that you are capable to create the original.
Unchained added the Artistry (Int) skill for the creative part. Using a skill for that kind of mechanic will never be perfect, but I think it is better than using only the Craft (painting) skill.
(Note: in my current campaign I am using a houserule for the skill points, so most characters are way less skill starved and I can require that kind of skill expenditure.)