Ok i was away two days and didnt read all of the above yet after ericks answer to my last post. I will later.
Erick i understand your sorrows and i see where you want to go.
I also partly agree. This discussion is affecting stealth and SA rules too.
Using vanishing trick only for SA every round is clearly an exploit somehow. I think the rounds per level are fine though. You know the stealth rules? Invisibility gives you +40 on stealth if you are not moving, +20 if you are moving. Now this is clearly meant to help unstealthy characters and of course affects stealthy characters heavily, but then you get all the penalties for stealth. If you for example move at full speed and dont have the Fast Stealth trick, what is it then?
My guess only +20 for invisibility. Even at mid levels that can be beaten. In the games we play i need my Ki points for other things too, else i cannot survive or contribute to encounters. And we have a good mix of roleplay, social situations and combat. But thats a game style question and if you have cheesy players and a DM who lke hack and slay, what to say?
The other thing is, what alternatives are there for vanishing trick?
Everything else is very feat heavy or you need to take prestige classes, either way its hampering you. First with the feats, then with combat actions you need to spend to get your SA, what clearly leaves the rogue in a vulnerable position, because he has less HP and less damage mostly then. With VT she can compare to babarians and fighters, but only for a time. If your encounters only go for 10 rounds a day, well. Ours normally take more time and ki is precious for me, i always think about when to spend one and when i will get the next rest.
I removed some attempts to stir up an edition war.
I removed some attempts to stir up an edition war.
Woah I feel like my post got deleted, Don't remember even mentioning any other editions in this thread.
While hungry Ghost monk/ninja seems like really hawt combo, and certainly for ki point conservation it is, your PC there is eating a lot of levels where he doesn't get sneak-attack dice. Monk5/ninja 2 would be the level in which he starts to steal ki. At that level he would have a d8 unarmed attack, and 3 attacks (4 with Ki point, which he can't use if he wants to vanish).So lets say 3 attack-flurry, 3d8 + 3d6 sneak attack total, vs TWF ninja 1d10 katana/1d6 wakazashi + 8d6 sneak attack total (on only 2 attacks!). HGM/ninja has a 1 point lead in BAB too, which count's for some extra damage potential,...
I understand all of that, which was the point of the Edit to my original post. His build is phenomenal because it happens to be a Gestalt campaign, so he isn't actually eating the levels. That said, characters are bound to be especially powerful in a gestalt campaign. It's kind of the point.
I guess I should have been (even more specific): the point of the edit was to withdraw my complaint. :)
While hungry Ghost monk/ninja seems like really hawt combo, and certainly for ki point conservation it is, your PC there is eating a lot of levels where he doesn't get sneak-attack dice. Monk5/ninja 2 would be the level in which he starts to steal ki. At that level he would have a d8 unarmed attack, and 3 attacks (4 with Ki point, which he can't use if he wants to vanish).So lets say 3 attack-flurry, 3d8 + 3d6 sneak attack total, vs TWF ninja 1d10 katana/1d6 wakazashi + 8d6 sneak attack total (on only 2 attacks!). HGM/ninja has a 1 point lead in BAB too, which count's for some extra damage potential,...
I understand all of that, which was the point of the Edit to my original post. His build is phenomenal because it happens to be a Gestalt campaign, so he isn't actually eating the levels. That said, characters are bound to be especially powerful in a gestalt campaign. It's kind of the point.
I guess I should have been (even more specific): the point of the edit was to withdraw my complaint. :)
Heh, no problem, man. I love opportunities to theorycraft. Even outside of a gestalt campaign, the Hungry Ghost ninja has some distinct advantages that he/she gets in trade from losing that sneak attack.
• High jump, which is very apropos for fantasy ninjas to leap 20+ feet vertically
• no armor check penalty to stealth or other associated skills
• Since monk ninjas who have ki pools can choose their ki pool stat, Wisdom can be the hungry ghost monk's ki stat for less MAD
• hungry ghost monk can pick forgotten trick as his 1 ninja trick to still be able to cover a lot of ninja tropes with only a few ninja levels (broken as all hell, but still technically viable)
Hungry ghost ninja needs to pull some tricks to be able to keep his/her damage scaling as a single-class character but, with 4 ninja levels he she is trading about 1 BAB, 1 AC, and little damage potential for +7 sneak attack damage per attack, a bunch of skill points, 2 ninja tricks and uncanny dodge. Not a bad trade, even if they use slightly gimped unarmed strikes.
Edit - Oh, almost forgot, hungry ghost ninja has BOTH uncanny dodge and evasion.
I removed some attempts to stir up an edition war.
Hmm, I didn't realize that stuff would be controversial. I certainly wasn't trying to "stir up an edition war." I assume most people that play Pathfinder are doing so because they don't want to go over to 4th edition, presumably because of problems they have with it. Is it not kosher on these boards to say anything bad about 4th ed? Because what 4th ed IS is really central to demonstrating why we should avoid certain things that I feel we should try to avoid. I assume I can still talk about those things? Do I have to use euphemisms instead of saying 4th edition? Or just tone down the rhetoric (I was admittedly not speeaking of 4th ed respectfully)? Or what? I genuinely want to know, because this is undoubtedly going to come up again at some point for me. It certainly weakens a couple of my points on this thread to remove that stuff.
I removed some attempts to stir up an edition war.Hmm, I didn't realize that stuff would be controversial. I certainly wasn't trying to "stir up an edition war." I assume most people that play Pathfinder are doing so because they don't want to go over to 4th edition, presumably because of problems they have with it. Is it not kosher on these boards to say anything bad about 4th ed? Because what 4th ed IS is really central to demonstrating why we should avoid certain things that I feel we should try to avoid. I assume I can still talk about those things? Do I have to use euphemisms instead of saying 4th edition? Or just tone down the rhetoric (I was admittedly not speeaking of 4th ed respectfully)? Or what? I genuinely want to know, because this is undoubtedly going to come up again at some point for me. It certainly weakens a couple of my points on this thread to remove that stuff.
Generally edition war threads are ones in which personal preferences become personal attacks. If you steer away from saying things that imply BADWRONGFUN, you should be alright. "4ED is BETTER because ..." can be seen as edition war bait, because it assumes that there is an objective conclusion to be drawn from the systems. "4ED handles this in a way that I like better..." is a more agenda neutral stance, and is less likely to cause a flamewar.
All in all, the paizo boards are pretty open to debate and free speech, etc, etc. Just not name calling, swearing, or obviously inflammatory speech (although you might have more luck in the Off-Topic forums for controversial topics/politics).
I removed some attempts to stir up an edition war.Hmm, I didn't realize that stuff would be controversial. I certainly wasn't trying to "stir up an edition war." I assume most people that play Pathfinder are doing so because they don't want to go over to 4th edition, presumably because of problems they have with it. Is it not kosher on these boards to say anything bad about 4th ed? Because what 4th ed IS is really central to demonstrating why we should avoid certain things that I feel we should try to avoid. I assume I can still talk about those things? Do I have to use euphemisms instead of saying 4th edition? Or just tone down the rhetoric (I was admittedly not speeaking of 4th ed respectfully)? Or what? I genuinely want to know, because this is undoubtedly going to come up again at some point for me. It certainly weakens a couple of my points on this thread to remove that stuff.Generally edition war threads are ones in which personal preferences become personal attacks. If you steer away from saying things that imply BADWRONGFUN, you should be alright. "4ED is BETTER because ..." can be seen as edition war bait, because it assumes that there is an objective conclusion to be drawn from the systems. "4ED handles this in a way that I like better..." is a more agenda neutral stance, and is less likely to cause a flamewar.
All in all, the paizo boards are pretty open to debate and free speech, etc, etc. Just not name calling, swearing, or obviously inflammatory speech (although you might have more luck in the Off-Topic forums for controversial topics/politics).
Ok, that's fair. Thanks for the response, anbu.
one thing that all of you have forgotten is
Meditation Crystal: Though this focus is usually a
hand-sized crystal, the exact form (such as a wooden
idol, an iron disk, and so on) may vary for some religions.
A monk or paladin of the cleric’s faith may concentrate
upon an activated meditation crystal, taking no actions
for 1 minute, and regain 1 ki point or one use of lay on
hands. Once activated, the crystal retains its energy
until a monk or paladin uses it for this purpose or 24
hours pass.
Meditation crystal 100 gp 1 lb.
whats to stop any ninja from having like 100 of these?
one thing that all of you have forgotten is
** spoiler omitted **
Meditation crystal 100 gp 1 lb.
whats to stop any ninja from having like 100 of these?
Where did you find that? Its not in my CRB/APG.
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one thing that all of you have forgotten is
** spoiler omitted **
Meditation crystal 100 gp 1 lb.
whats to stop any ninja from having like 100 of these?
nothing, but it calls out Monks and paladins. Not ninjas. a ninja could have infinite of them but they wont do anything, unless they have monk or pally levels
Meditation Crystal: Though this focus is usually a
hand-sized crystal, the exact form (such as a wooden
idol, an iron disk, and so on) may vary for some religions.
A monk or paladin of the cleric’s faith may concentrate
upon an activated meditation crystal, taking no actions
for 1 minute, and regain 1 ki point or one use of lay on
hands. Once activated, the crystal retains its energy
until a monk or paladin uses it for this purpose or 24
hours pass.
ninjas cant activate it or use the ki point. At least by RAW (until something lets ninjas use any monk ki related item)
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DC 20 spot check will see the presence of an invisible being within 10 feet if they've moved that round. That's when big beasties go for the grapple. No guessing where that Ninja is if you can grab a hold of them. A lot of monsters have Improved Grab which means that you can full out attack and get the free grapple attempt if you land one.
Most of the time, the PCs are being met by an opposing force. Yes, they do wander into random dungeons and face forces that aren't aware of their presence but a lot of times, this isn't the case. Any BBEG worth his salt will learn as much as they can about the forces of good that are hunting them down and will prepare accordingly. Wizards have see invisibility. Druids have high spot checks and faerie fire. Clerics have Invisibility purge etc, etc.
Yes, invisibility is a powerful ability but chances are, all of the PCs have powerful abilities. It's not like it's a total cheese power. Invisibility and Ninjas go together like peanut butter and jelly. Just need to take steps to throw equalizers in there when it counts.
one thing that all of you have forgotten is
** spoiler omitted **
Meditation crystal 100 gp 1 lb.
whats to stop any ninja from having like 100 of these?
nothing, but it calls out Monks and paladins. Not ninjas. a ninja could have infinite of them but they wont do anything, unless they have monk or pally levels
Meditation Crystal: Though this focus is usually a
hand-sized crystal, the exact form (such as a wooden
idol, an iron disk, and so on) may vary for some religions.
A monk or paladin of the cleric’s faith may concentrate
upon an activated meditation crystal, taking no actions
for 1 minute, and regain 1 ki point or one use of lay on
hands. Once activated, the crystal retains its energy
until a monk or paladin uses it for this purpose or 24
hours pass.ninjas cant activate it or use the ki point. At least by RAW (until something lets ninjas use any monk ki related item)
so magicly ninja don't gain the 1 ki point seeing that they have a ki pool also?
Yep just like per raw they can't take the UM vows since they are monk Archtype
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so magicly ninja don't gain the 1 ki point seeing that they have a ki pool also?one thing that all of you have forgotten is
** spoiler omitted **
Meditation crystal 100 gp 1 lb.
whats to stop any ninja from having like 100 of these?
nothing, but it calls out Monks and paladins. Not ninjas. a ninja could have infinite of them but they wont do anything, unless they have monk or pally levels
Meditation Crystal: Though this focus is usually a
hand-sized crystal, the exact form (such as a wooden
idol, an iron disk, and so on) may vary for some religions.
A monk or paladin of the cleric’s faith may concentrate
upon an activated meditation crystal, taking no actions
for 1 minute, and regain 1 ki point or one use of lay on
hands. Once activated, the crystal retains its energy
until a monk or paladin uses it for this purpose or 24
hours pass.ninjas cant activate it or use the ki point. At least by RAW (until something lets ninjas use any monk ki related item)
it has nothing to do with a ki pool, it has to do with not being a pally or monk. it doesnt say "anyone with a ki pool" it says pally or monk.
unless you are a pally or monk, the item is useless to you.
it has nothing to do with a ki pool, it has to do with not being a pally or monk. it doesnt say "anyone with a ki pool" it says pally or monk.unless you are a pally or monk, the item is useless to you.
Though it does add a reason to multiclass hungry ghost monk with ninja... Combine this with Anburaid's points, and we may have a very valid build after all. Hungry Ghost's ki theft, this item and monk vows means ki points are a nigh unlimited resource.
From a fluff perspective, I think the reason to limit the item to monks and paladins has to do with faith. Simply put, the "iconic" ninja is not very religious, and thus stands to gain little from a religious item. That said, it's probably not terribly overpowering to allow them to use this item if they're in service to a church or other religious power.
it has nothing to do with a ki pool, it has to do with not being a pally or monk. it doesnt say "anyone with a ki pool" it says pally or monk.unless you are a pally or monk, the item is useless to you.
Though it does add a reason to multiclass hungry ghost monk with ninja... Combine this with Anburaid's points, and we may have a very valid build after all. Hungry Ghost's ki theft, this item and monk vows means ki points are a nigh unlimited resource.
From a fluff perspective, I think the reason to limit the item to monks and paladins has to do with faith. Simply put, the "iconic" ninja is not very religious, and thus stands to gain little from a religious item. That said, it's probably not terribly overpowering to allow them to use this item if they're in service to a church or other religious power.
Did you ever consider that the fact that ninja are only a playtest class so far could have a lot to do with that and that there could be errata changing such stuff in the future? Making all such items free for anyone with a ki pool is a reasonable step in creating a independant ki magic system. And it also does make sense, there is still the faith restriction. Such items need to be created or bought and it says nowhere they are available in the hundreds.
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Did you ever consider that the fact that ninja are only a playtest class so far could have a lot to do with that and that there could be errata changing such stuff in the future? Making all such items free for anyone with a ki pool is a reasonable step in creating a independant ki magic system. And it also does make sense, there is still the faith restriction. Such items need to be created or bought and it says nowhere they are available in the hundreds.
it has nothing to do with a ki pool, it has to do with not being a pally or monk. it doesnt say "anyone with a ki pool" it says pally or monk.unless you are a pally or monk, the item is useless to you.
Though it does add a reason to multiclass hungry ghost monk with ninja... Combine this with Anburaid's points, and we may have a very valid build after all. Hungry Ghost's ki theft, this item and monk vows means ki points are a nigh unlimited resource.
From a fluff perspective, I think the reason to limit the item to monks and paladins has to do with faith. Simply put, the "iconic" ninja is not very religious, and thus stands to gain little from a religious item. That said, it's probably not terribly overpowering to allow them to use this item if they're in service to a church or other religious power.
ninjas cant activate it or use the ki point. At least by RAW (until something lets ninjas use any monk ki related item)
Maybe UC will have a clause about ki and saying ninjas, or anyone with ki, can use items that call out monk. I think that 1 particularly isnt meant for ninjas, only monks and pallys. Its meant for 2 classes with alignment restrictions, and religious ties. If it just called our gives a ki point it would be fine, but i also think that some weird hypothetical ranger variant that gets lay on hands wouldn't be able to use this item either. Or how a druid cant use a cleric specific item.
Maybe UC will have some items that just let you add to an existing ki pool. But if an item is meant for everyone they won't call out class specific.
Point.
Ki Mat and Necklace of Serenity are good examples for that.
So far its hard for a ninja to coope with ki.
Vanishing trick still overpowered in the eyes of some?
Personally i like the idea of a ki based magic system like thing, where you perhaps even dont have class abilities but something like ki "spells" you can learn or access via class. Maybe you could even access all of them theoretically and their ki cost rises with power they possess. And perhaps abilities from other classes are more expensive for you or belog to schools you sometimes cant access...so many possibilities and a real nice fluff. But since its mystic ki stuff should be different from spells, more focusing on things from asian movies, legends, lore etc, different from already existing magic.
Of course this is kind of a point buy system, eventually very flexible but also giving you great roleplay oportunities.
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@Hayato Ken: you mean like the Martial arts and crafts they had in Ranma 1/2, some of that stuff was weird, fun, kinda stupid, but mostly weird. There were so many times I wanted him to fall back on the Saotome school of martial arts secret technique #1 (cheating), because the requirements of some of those fights were ridiculous.
Hi I was wondering what you would change to make it not obnoxious and overpowered?
We have seen nothing from the OP on this line of thought he prefers just giving reasons why other people's arguements are invalid.
It's true that the OP hasn't checked in for a bit, but I don't think that means he thinks it's invalid.
Personally, my only real issue with VT is the fact that it's a swift action. It leaves a whole lot of room for abuse with action economy (such as full attack -> Vanish, as mentioned earlier). I'd like to see it cost a move or even standard action to use.
That said, do keep in mind that this is a playtest class for a book that is set to publish near the end of this month (if I'm not mistaken - has that date changed?). We can toss around our ideas here all we'd like, but they've almost certainly finished their adjustments on the class already. So this is either an intellectual exercise or a way to hammer out a house rule fix until the finished version comes out.
It's true that the OP hasn't checked in for a bit, but I don't think that means he thinks it's invalid.
Personally, my only real issue with VT is the fact that it's a swift action. It leaves a whole lot of room for abuse with action economy (such as full attack -> Vanish, as mentioned earlier). I'd like to see it cost a move or even standard action to use.
That said, do keep in mind that this is a playtest class for a book that is set to publish near the end of this month (if I'm not mistaken - has that date changed?). We can toss around our ideas here all we'd like, but they've almost certainly finished their adjustments on the class already. So this is either an intellectual exercise or a way to hammer out a house rule fix until the finished version comes out.
With a d8 HD and a pretty MAD attribute setup, why is swift action vanish an exploit? Its more of a survival tactic (and in no way guaranteed considering some creature's sensory abilities or just bad dice luck)?
I suspect that the swift action dealy is pretty much a sacrifice of balance towards making a fun class to play. If it were a standard action, then doing a vanish-attack combo would take two rounds and seriously hurt the ninja's contribution, since all its doing is protecting the ninja. I could see a move action as the vanish cost, but that hurts higher level play when DPR is about exploiting full attacks.
I feel for the OP's problem. DMing for stealth is not easy in pathfinder because the vision/ perception are spagetti mess of rules on different pages, with wide holes given to "DM FIAT". The problem isn't swift action invisibility. The problem is that handling invisibility is not easy.
I think those rules are pretty clear as i am aware, but perhaps i missed something. I´ll try to put together a little FAQ how to handle invisibility, maybe this can help the OP too:
A good start. I'll help finish it off.
Invisibility
The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.
Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger's favored enemy and from sneak attacks.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
Invisible Creature is ... | Perception
In combat or speaking -20
Moving at half speed -5
Moving at full speed -10
Running or charging -20
Not moving +20
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (wall) +15A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature's current location. If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.
If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow invisible creature might get a smaller miss chance.
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy's not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there and tell him that the character has missed, regardless of the result. That way the player doesn't know whether the attack missed because the enemy's not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).
Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature's location.
An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.
A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.
A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)
A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.
An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light or similar spell cast upon it.
Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Perception checks, scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Perception checks can help.
Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.
Invisibility does not thwart divination spells.
Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.
and then later on in the same page under Conditions ...
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
So if you are invisible its not that you add +20 to your stealth check, but rather that your actions determine what type of modifier gets added to the DC 20 perception check to notice you. It doesn't state whether they count towards noticing or pinpointing the location of an invisible person, but my guess is both.
After rereading it, my DM Fiat comment is not applicable since that has more to do with how Stealth works in the game, not invisibility, per say. Mia culpa.
Than you Anburaid, very good contribution.
What i wrote about being invisible is more about sneaking and being invisible. For all non-sneaky types you are probably right. Thats a field to discuss somehow though and can surely be object to individual interpretations.
If a player abuses Vanish have a caster among the enemies.
Ninja: I use vanish, move up to an enemy and sneak attack. Fear my sneakiness! Ph34r vv17h gr347 ph34r!!!
Caster: Glitterdust. Try that invisibility BS now. I double dog dare you. Cmmon make me laugh, beyotch.
Works against greater invisbility too. Overpowered my shiny metal...
If a player abuses Vanish have a caster among the enemies.
Ninja: I use vanish, move up to an enemy and sneak attack. Fear my sneakiness! Ph34r vv17h gr347 ph34r!!!
Caster: Glitterdust. Try that invisibility BS now. I double dog dare you. Cmmon make me laugh, beyotch.Works against greater invisbility too. Overpowered my shiny metal...
or see invisibly which is a level 2 spell.
This trick is really good at level 1, where the only real counter is a readied action. Once you hit level 5, there are a lot of counters to invisibility: glitter dust, see invisibility, AoE spells, etc.