Witch: Cackle and Fortune


Rules Questions


21 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
pfsrd wrote:


Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by [1 round.

I have bolded and italicised the areas I question...

Is it the case that Cackle will allow the duration of the Hex to extend out more than the one round, but once the player exercises the benefit (ie takes the bonus roll) the Hex ends and he/she cannot benefit again for 24 hours,

Or

That the bonus reroll effect applies and can be taken each round until the cackle, and thus the duration, expires?


The latter.


Thanks for replying :)

I suspected it MIGHT be, but I also saw an argument the other way... felt I would clarify this now rather than have an argument over it some other day and be indecisive!

Cheers

Grand Lodge

Option 2, because the hex already (at 8th and 16th level) grants multiple rerolls, once per round over two or three rounds.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The former.

Once they have benefited from it they cannot receive that benefit again until 24 hours have passed.

You only get one bite of the fortune pie, the cackle is so you can pre-buff this bonus until you need it.

If it worked they way you want it to it would be game breakingly good.
Cackle doesn't change the fact that the hex explicitly states you can only benefit from it once.

Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

The former.

Once they have benefited from it they cannot receive that benefit again until 24 hours have passed.

You only get one bite of the fortune pie, the cackle is so you can pre-buff this bonus until you need it.

If it worked they way you want it to it would be game breakingly good.
Cackle doesn't change the fact that the hex explicitly states you can only benefit from it once.

Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

The target can call upon this good luck once per round...At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.

You are incorrect, sir.


Unquestionably the latter.

A character can only benefit from the hex once, that is, once they've been affected by the hex, they cannot be affected again.

Fortune can and does last multiple rounds, allowing one reroll per round.

Also, Cackle explicitly cites Fortune as one of the hexes it will extend.

While the language of the final sentence could be read either way, every other sentence in both hexes supports only the latter.


Revan wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

The former.

Once they have benefited from it they cannot receive that benefit again until 24 hours have passed.

You only get one bite of the fortune pie, the cackle is so you can pre-buff this bonus until you need it.

If it worked they way you want it to it would be game breakingly good.
Cackle doesn't change the fact that the hex explicitly states you can only benefit from it once.

Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

The target can call upon this good luck once per round...At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.

You are incorrect, sir.

Exactly. It clearly states "once per round", if it would end the second it was used, it would either say "once" or most likely explicitely state that it ends once used, like other abilities that work that way. Or would talk about "can use his luck with the next ability roll as long as its done within 1/2/3 rounds".

It doesn't, so clearly it the latter interpretation. The same for misfortune.

Yes it's good. Is it overpowered? No, Cackle only has a reach of 30 ft, so you have to stay real close to your friend to keep fortune up, and really really close (as in "oops i'm in charge range... OUCH MY SPLEEN!" close) to an enemy to keep evil eye or misfortune up.
And if you have to move to stay in range before you cackle, you used up your entire round for that, and did nothing else.


Revan wrote:

The target can call upon this good luck once per round...At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.

I'd say the latter for this very reason.


Shifty wrote:
pfsrd wrote:


Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by [1 round.

I have bolded and italicised the areas I question...

Is it the case that Cackle will allow the duration of the Hex to extend out more than the one round, but once the player exercises the benefit (ie takes the bonus roll) the Hex ends and he/she cannot benefit again for 24 hours,

Or

That the bonus reroll effect applies and can be taken each round until the cackle, and thus the duration, expires?

The latter. The "Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours" bit is to allow you to only target any individual once per day with the Hex. As long as it is on them, they can keep using it.

That said, eventually you have to stop cackling, even if the Rogue doesn't like it.

Dark Archive

Allia Thren wrote:
Revan wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

The former.

Once they have benefited from it they cannot receive that benefit again until 24 hours have passed.

You only get one bite of the fortune pie, the cackle is so you can pre-buff this bonus until you need it.

If it worked they way you want it to it would be game breakingly good.
Cackle doesn't change the fact that the hex explicitly states you can only benefit from it once.

Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

The target can call upon this good luck once per round...At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.

You are incorrect, sir.

Exactly. It clearly states "once per round", if it would end the second it was used, it would either say "once" or most likely explicitely state that it ends once used, like other abilities that work that way. Or would talk about "can use his luck with the next ability roll as long as its done within 1/2/3 rounds".

It doesn't, so clearly it the latter interpretation. The same for misfortune.

Yes it's good. Is it overpowered? No, Cackle only has a reach of 30 ft, so you have to stay real close to your friend to keep fortune up, and really really close (as in "oops i'm in charge range... OUCH MY SPLEEN!" close) to an enemy to keep evil eye or misfortune up.
And if you have to move to stay in range before you cackle, you used up your entire round for that, and did nothing else.

I really fail to see how you can believe that you can get the benefit from this hex more than once a day.

Cackle will keep the hex on you for whatever duration the witch chooses (before, during & after you use it) but per this line in the hex:

Quote:
Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

you don't get the benefit again until 24 hours have passed.

The duration increase at 8th and 16th level is so you can move out of range of the cackling witch or if the witch doesn't have Cackle in the first place.

The hex uses the word BENEFIT not be target of, and that's the difference I am referring to. You can be affected by the hex for as long as the Witch decides to keep it on you but as soon as you choose to take the benefit you can't take that benefit again for 24 hours.

All the hexes that function where as long as the hex is on them this effect is in play have a different verbage on them.

Agony hex, Charm Hex, Misfortune Hex, all use this line:

Quote:
Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the [b]target of this hex again[\b] for 1 day.

Only Fortune hex specifically states that you can't benefit from it more than once a day, and specifics trump the general rule every time.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Misguided Stuff

What exactly "benefit" from the Fortune hex means can be read two ways, however:

The target can call upon this good luck once per round

How exactly does that work, then?

Dark Archive

Quantum Steve wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Misguided Stuff

What exactly "benefit" from the Fortune hex means can be read two ways, however:

The target can call upon this good luck once per round

How exactly does that work, then?

Contradictory statement and poor word choice?

We have 2 statements in the hex, one states you can call on it once per round but it only lasts one round. (2 at 8th and 3 at 16th)
The other states explicitly that you can only benefit from it once per 24 hour period.

Until a Dev states one way or another both sides have valid arguments but the language for the exclusion is a written a lot clearer.

As for the definition of "benefit", please benefit is it making something better for you as has been stated over and over by the Devs.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hit FAQ, this thread got busy!

Scarab Sages

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Misguided Stuff

What exactly "benefit" from the Fortune hex means can be read two ways, however:

The target can call upon this good luck once per round

How exactly does that work, then?

Contradictory statement and poor word choice?

We have 2 statements in the hex, one states you can call on it once per round but it only lasts one round. (2 at 8th and 3 at 16th)
The other states explicitly that you can only benefit from it once per 24 hour period.

Until a Dev states one way or another both sides have valid arguments but the language for the exclusion is a written a lot clearer.

As for the definition of "benefit", please benefit is it making something better for you as has been stated over and over by the Devs.

Then why add the part about increasing the duration by a round at various levels? To my knowledge, most powers become more potent as levels increase. They don't usually gain a minor (at best) increase in convenience. There would, literally, be NO point in using cackle with this hex unless it was allowed to be used every round.

Also, you seem to think that the "benefit" is a single reroll. However, you could easily say that the hex itself is the benefit, and that benefiting from the hex is being affected by it, which allows you to reroll one d20 roll on your turn for the listed duration, which increases per the Cackle hex.


I would argue that "benefiting" from the hex means being able to re-roll a die once per round for one or more rounds. I do not take it to mean the first re-roll is considered a benefit so regardless of the witch's level, the hex is no longer useful to the target after one reroll in a 24-hour period.

Besides, if it were a "one and done", the wording of the hex might have said "re-roll one roll anytime during the duration of the hex", not "once per round".


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Misguided Stuff

What exactly "benefit" from the Fortune hex means can be read two ways, however:

The target can call upon this good luck once per round

How exactly does that work, then?

Contradictory statement and poor word choice?

We have 2 statements in the hex, one states you can call on it once per round but it only lasts one round. (2 at 8th and 3 at 16th)
The other states explicitly that you can only benefit from it once per 24 hour period.

Until a Dev states one way or another both sides have valid arguments but the language for the exclusion is a written a lot clearer.

As for the definition of "benefit", please benefit is it making something better for you as has been stated over and over by the Devs.

So, my way, every statement makes sense. Your way some statements are "contradictory" and have "poor word choice."

Wouldn't one have to assume the Devs were attempting to make the most sense possible?

Dark Archive

Davor wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Stuff

Then why add the part about increasing the duration by a round at various levels? To my knowledge, most powers become more potent as levels increase. They don't usually gain a minor (at best) increase in convenience. There would, literally, be NO point in using cackle with this hex unless it was allowed to be used every round.

Also, you seem to think that the "benefit" is a single reroll. However, you could easily say that the hex itself is the benefit, and that benefiting from the hex is being affected by it, which allows you to reroll one d20 roll on your turn for the listed duration, which increases per the Cackle hex.

First there is no benefit from having the hex on you, it doesn't do a thing unless you choose to take the power it offers. IE Benefit from the good luck.

And I think it's a single re-roll because that's what the power says it does, offers you a re-roll on one of that defined set of options. Remember it says "reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. You have to pick ONE of those rolls and re-roll it that turn, hence the singular re-roll I see.

x93edwards wrote:


I would argue that "benefiting" from the hex means being able to re-roll a die once per round for one or more rounds. I do not take it to mean the first re-roll is considered a benefit so regardless of the witch's level, the hex is no longer useful to the target after one reroll in a 24-hour period.

Besides, if it were a "one and done", the wording of the hex might have said "re-roll one roll anytime during the duration of the hex", not "once per round".

So with your interpretation what exactly does this sentence mean ?

Quote:
Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Remember it has a completely different guidelines on it then every other hex, those use the line "targeted by" or "affected by", this is the only one that says benefit from.

The other hexes will last and keep applying their effect until the hex is removed and it can't be put back on for 24 hours.
This one states you can put it on anytime you want but once they take the benefit they have to wait 24hrs before getting the benefit again.

As for the once per round line I have no idea why it's there since everything else in the description points towards the singular re-roll except this line.


I can see your point as well Mathwei, and I guess you can read it that way, but I don't think so.

"Once per round" refers to people that make more than one roll per round. Like a TWF fighter can't reroll all his 6 attack rolls and choose the better, he has to pick one of them.

But it doesn't say "you can reroll one roll" it says "once per round you can".

I agree that there's some poor wording involved here, and a dev really should clear this issue up.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's not poor wording at all. It says it lasts one round, and you can use the reroll once per round. Then, you get more rounds as the witch levels up, meaning you can reroll once per round for two rounds, then three rounds--or once per round for as long as the witch keeps cackling and you're within 30 ft.

The fact of the matter is that the wording is only poor if you try to say the reroll is once only.

Liberty's Edge

Revan wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

The former.

Once they have benefited from it they cannot receive that benefit again until 24 hours have passed.

You only get one bite of the fortune pie, the cackle is so you can pre-buff this bonus until you need it.

If it worked they way you want it to it would be game breakingly good.
Cackle doesn't change the fact that the hex explicitly states you can only benefit from it once.

Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

The target can call upon this good luck once per round...At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.

You are incorrect, sir.

Once per round = you can't call it several times in a round.

If it wasn't explicitly stated it would apply to each roll you made in the round.

I see a god case for both interpretations. Hence, FAQed.

- * - * - * -

To add another FAQ question:

I have seen a lot of people calling that the witch can cast a hex and "pee-emptively" cackle 2 times a round (using her move and her standard action) to add several hours to the duration of the hex (1 hour for each hour of double cackling).
While the cackle hex wording will support this interpretation, it seem strongly against the ROI.
My opinion is that the cackle is meant to extend the hex(es) power only into the next round and that you need to repeat the cackle the next round to extend them again.


The only way that ALL of the text of the spell makes sense is if you read "Benefit" as to be "effected by" or "subject of". If you do there is absolutely NO conflict in any of the wording.

If the Hex was meant to allow only ONE reroll period then it would not have used the phrasing "Once per Round". If only one reroll was ever intended there would be no need to say "Once per Round".

Sure Benefit can be read different ways but there is only one way it can be read that makes sense with the rest of the Hex description.

What if you had an effect said the following.

This subject of this power gains a +4 bonus to his AC for 10 minutes. Once a creature has benefited from this power, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Would any one assume that in this case "Benefit" means "is subject to an attack"? Technically the first time someone attacks the subject he has "Benefitted" from the effect by having a higher AC. So then would he only gain the AC bonus to the next attack against him?


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Diego Rossi wrote:


I have seen a lot of people calling that the witch can cast a hex and "pee-emptively" cackle 2 times a round (using her move and her standard action) to add several hours to the duration of the hex (1 hour for each hour of double cackling).
While the cackle hex wording will support this interpretation, it seem strongly against the ROI.
My opinion is that the cackle is meant to extend the hex(es) power only into the next round and that you need to repeat the cackle the next round to extend them again.

Actually by the rules as written this can be done, however. I would apply the rules of Fatigue here as I would assume cackling continuously for an hour or more would qualify as strenuous activity.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Kalyth wrote:
Actually by the rules as written this can be done, however. I would apply the rules of Fatigue here as I would assume cackling continuously for an hour or more would qualify as strenuous activity.

Better yet, bring in the men in white coats to collect the obviously trauma-addled adventurer who can't stop laughing. ;)


Jiggy wrote:
Better yet, bring in the men in white coats to collect the obviously trauma-addled adventurer who can't stop laughing. ;)

And some more for her groupmates. It would be like being locked up next to the Joker.

Dark Archive

Kalyth wrote:

The only way that ALL of the text of the spell makes sense is if you read "Benefit" as to be "effected by" or "subject of". If you do there is absolutely NO conflict in any of the wording.

If the Hex was meant to allow only ONE reroll period then it would not have used the phrasing "Once per Round". If only one reroll was ever intended there would be no need to say "Once per Round".

Sure Benefit can be read different ways but there is only one way it can be read that makes sense with the rest of the Hex description.

What if you had an effect said the following.

This subject of this power gains a +4 bonus to his AC for 10 minutes. Once a creature has benefited from this power, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Would any one assume that in this case "Benefit" means "is subject to an attack"? Technically the first time someone attacks the subject he has "Benefitted" from the effect by having a higher AC. So then would he only gain the AC bonus to the next attack against him?

You might want to read Diego Rossi's point again (I had to read it 3 times and refer back to the Hex before it clicked for me).

What he's saying is that the once per round line is there because, as written, without it you could invoke this power and re-roll EVERY check you make that round.

example:A fighter under this hex fighting a Poisonous monster could make a Knowledge Nature check (and re-roll it), then full attack (and reroll every attack), and if each hit required a fort save to avoid some nasty effect (re-roll every fort save).
That's what happens if that line isn't there.

The two lines we are arguing about aren't opposing each other, they are both put there to limit this hexes power, otherwise it is THE most powerful ability in the game.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Kalyth wrote:

The only way that ALL of the text of the spell makes sense is if you read "Benefit" as to be "effected by" or "subject of". If you do there is absolutely NO conflict in any of the wording.

If the Hex was meant to allow only ONE reroll period then it would not have used the phrasing "Once per Round". If only one reroll was ever intended there would be no need to say "Once per Round".

Sure Benefit can be read different ways but there is only one way it can be read that makes sense with the rest of the Hex description.

What if you had an effect said the following.

This subject of this power gains a +4 bonus to his AC for 10 minutes. Once a creature has benefited from this power, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Would any one assume that in this case "Benefit" means "is subject to an attack"? Technically the first time someone attacks the subject he has "Benefitted" from the effect by having a higher AC. So then would he only gain the AC bonus to the next attack against him?

You might want to read Diego Rossi's point again (I had to read it 3 times and refer back to the Hex before it clicked for me).

What he's saying is that the once per round line is there because, as written, without it you could invoke this power and re-roll EVERY check you make that round.

example:A fighter under this hex fighting a Poisonous monster could make a Knowledge Nature check (and re-roll it), then full attack (and reroll every attack), and if each hit required a fort save to avoid some nasty effect (re-roll every fort save).
That's what happens if that line isn't there.

The two lines we are arguing about aren't opposing each other, they are both put there to limit this hexes power, otherwise it is THE most powerful ability in the game.

You do need something to limit it, but if it's only intended to work once per use of the hex, they could have said "once" instead of "once per round". Saying "once per round" strongly implies that the extended duration at higher levels allows you to reroll "once per round". The same would follow if Cackle was used.


Mathwei ap Niall

If it was meant to effect only one single roll period why didnt they just phrase it like Guidance?

Guidance
School divination; Level cleric 0, druid 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 minute or until discharged
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes
This spell imbues the subject with a touch of divine guidance.
The creature gets a +1 competence bonus on a single attack roll,
saving throw, or skill check. It must choose to use the bonus
before making the roll to which it applies.

If it was limited to one single roll period would it not have been easier to state the ability as such.

Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30
feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call
upon this good luck ONCE, allowing him to reroll a SINGLE ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. This hex last one round, at 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

***I do not know how to bold text so used CAPS to show the words I change.

Basically if it was intended to work only once it would have been far easier to state that plainly. Which they did not.


Heres another point.

Healig Hex

Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those
she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using
the witch’s caster level. Once a creature has benefited
from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again
for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate
wounds.

This hex acts as Cure Light Wounds and as such can be used to damage undead (this has been confirmed by one of the Devs in a post.).

Sinse the Undead is gains no "Benefit" from the Hex it can be used on the Undead creature any number of times?

Benefit is often used in place of effected, targeted, subjected, etc... and that I feel is the only logic was to take it in regards to the Fortune Hex.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kalyth wrote:

Heres another point.

Healig Hex

Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those
she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using
the witch’s caster level. Once a creature has benefited
from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again
for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate
wounds.

This hex acts as Cure Light Wounds and as such can be used to damage undead (this has been confirmed by one of the Devs in a post.).

Sinse the Undead is gains no "Benefit" from the Hex it can be used on the Undead creature any number of times?

Benefit is often used in place of effected, targeted, subjected, etc... and that I feel is the only logic was to take it in regards to the Fortune Hex.

This is already in the FAQ, here is the copy and pasted answer for you.

Witch: Can you use the healing hex (page 66) to damage undead? If so, how often can you affect a particular undead?

The hex acts like the appropriate cure wounds spell, so it damages undead.
When used this to damage undead, it should have the same once-per-24-hours limitation as its healing usage (even though that's not a "benefit" to the targeted undead).
For clarity, where the hex currently says:
"Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours."
It should actually say:
"Once a creature has been affected by the hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours."
This will be updated in the next printing of the APG.

—Sean K Reynolds, 06/30/11

Dark Archive

Kalyth wrote:

Mathwei ap Niall

If it was meant to effect only one single roll period why didnt they just phrase it like Guidance?

Guidance
School divination; Level cleric 0, druid 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 minute or until discharged
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes
This spell imbues the subject with a touch of divine guidance.
The creature gets a +1 competence bonus on a single attack roll,
saving throw, or skill check. It must choose to use the bonus
before making the roll to which it applies.

If it was limited to one single roll period would it not have been easier to state the ability as such.

Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30
feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call
upon this good luck ONCE, allowing him to reroll a SINGLE ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. This hex last one round, at 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

***I do not know how to bold text so used CAPS to show the words I change.

Basically if it was intended to work only once it would have been far easier to state that plainly. Which they did not.

Best reason I can think of is they wanted it to be extendable by Cackle but still only usable once. It's a convoluted way of writing it but we've all seen multiple spells/powers/abilities that really should have been written clearer.

Liberty's Edge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
they are both put there to limit this hexes power, otherwise it is THE most powerful ability in the game.

"To limit this hexes (sic) power". . .

If I were going to try and limit an over powered power I'd give it a crappy range (30 feet perhaps), I'd make it cost an action to use (perhaps a move action, so as to play off the crappy range), I'd make it cost limited resources to obtain (say 1 - 2 feat equivalents), and if it was still too powerful I'd make it function only a limited number of times (say 1/round).

I'm pretty sure that would balance it.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
Kalyth wrote:

Heres another point.

Healig Hex

Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those
she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using
the witch’s caster level. Once a creature has benefited
from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again
for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate
wounds.

This hex acts as Cure Light Wounds and as such can be used to damage undead (this has been confirmed by one of the Devs in a post.).

Sinse the Undead is gains no "Benefit" from the Hex it can be used on the Undead creature any number of times?

Benefit is often used in place of effected, targeted, subjected, etc... and that I feel is the only logic was to take it in regards to the Fortune Hex.

This is already in the FAQ, here is the copy and pasted answer for you.

Witch: Can you use the healing hex (page 66) to damage undead? If so, how often can you affect a particular undead?

The hex acts like the appropriate cure wounds spell, so it damages undead.
When used this to damage undead, it should have the same once-per-24-hours limitation as its healing usage (even though that's not a "benefit" to the targeted undead).
For clarity, where the hex currently says:
"Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours."
It should actually say:
"Once a creature has been affected by the hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours."
This will be updated in the next printing of the APG.

—Sean K Reynolds, 06/30/11

Nailed it. Thanks for the reference.


Another Hex question:

Does it take an action to activate 'minutes per day' Hexes like Flight or Prehensile Hair?

(In a recent adventure, I actually ended up using the 'keep cackling for multiple minutes' stupid trick to help our tracker find a way out of the puzzle we were in. I did RP very sore abs afterwards...:D)


Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Does it take an action to activate 'minutes per day' Hexes like Flight or Prehensile Hair?

Hex: "Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity."

Dark Archive

Blueluck wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
Kalyth wrote:

Heres another point.

Healig Hex

Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those
she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using
the witch’s caster level. Once a creature has benefited
from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again
for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate
wounds.

This hex acts as Cure Light Wounds and as such can be used to damage undead (this has been confirmed by one of the Devs in a post.).

Sinse the Undead is gains no "Benefit" from the Hex it can be used on the Undead creature any number of times?

Benefit is often used in place of effected, targeted, subjected, etc... and that I feel is the only logic was to take it in regards to the Fortune Hex.

This is already in the FAQ, here is the copy and pasted answer for you.

Witch: Can you use the healing hex (page 66) to damage undead? If so, how often can you affect a particular undead?

The hex acts like the appropriate cure wounds spell, so it damages undead.
When used this to damage undead, it should have the same once-per-24-hours limitation as its healing usage (even though that's not a "benefit" to the targeted undead).
For clarity, where the hex currently says:
"Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours."
It should actually say:
"Once a creature has been affected by the hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours."
This will be updated in the next printing of the APG.

—Sean K Reynolds, 06/30/11

Nailed it. Thanks for the reference.

That makes great sense for the healing hex, doesn't really clear anything up for this hex though.


I assume you're arguing this based on the word 'benefit,' meaning 'they got a good thing from it.'

I can see the way you're trying to read it, but this falls into an odd question.

If the player makes a reroll from the fortune hex, and the reroll is worse than the original roll, and as a result they take the original roll, that wasn't a benefit, was it?

As such with your reading they'd be able to roll it again, yes?

Though I'd also like to state that keeping the text intended for the Healing hex in mind in relation to the Fortune hex is certainly the correct way to go. Your reading of the rule in general seems somewhat obtuse and hung up on the word 'benefit.'

The benefit isn't 'you get a reroll and is better.' The benefit is 'you reroll one die per round.' The benefit also lasts as long as the hex, and once the benefit (hex) ends, you cannot get it again for 24 hours.


Another point would be what happens if someone has the Fortune Hex put on them but doesnt make any rolls during that time period? Have the benefitted? Can they be subject to the Fortune Hex again that day?

Dark Archive

Trinam wrote:

I assume you're arguing this based on the word 'benefit,' meaning 'they got a good thing from it.'

I can see the way you're trying to read it, but this falls into an odd question.

If the player makes a reroll from the fortune hex, and the reroll is worse than the original roll, and as a result they take the original roll, that wasn't a benefit, was it?

As such with your reading they'd be able to roll it again, yes?

Though I'd also like to state that keeping the text intended for the Healing hex in mind in relation to the Fortune hex is certainly the correct way to go. Your reading of the rule in general seems somewhat obtuse and hung up on the word 'benefit.'

The benefit isn't 'you get a reroll and is better.' The benefit is 'you reroll one die per round.' The benefit also lasts as long as the hex, and once the benefit (hex) ends, you cannot get it again for 24 hours.

Not quite but close. My interpretation of benefit is that the character chooses to take the re-roll. period. Until you actually invoke the power nothing at all has happened.

That's my viewing, once you've made use of the power (for good or naught) you have benefited from it and you have to wait 24 hours to do it again.

Would I prefer it works the other way ? As a player heck yeah, it'd be awesome, but as a GM it seems way way too powerful for a first level ability.


Consider:

At 1st level, a cleric of the Luck Domain gets an ability which gives them the power to 3+Wis Modifier times/day poke someone and give them the ability to roll ALL d20s twice and take the better result for a round. Depending on the enemy type and other factors, this could be 2-3 times in a single round.

A witch who is also at 1st level can normally do this for her friend as well, she designates them but they can only roll 1 for that round, albeit at a distance of 30ft, once per ally. This is far less than 3+wisdom modifier on clerics, unless your party is huge or your cleric is crappy.

A witch at 1st level who is sinking a feat into Extra Hex can then give it to an ally and cackle, which extends it for an additional round, giving them 1 reroll/round for 2 rounds, but consider what you're giving up for this.

-You do not get to make any other actions THAT turn, aside a swift if you have one.
-You can only do this trick 1/day/person
-The person still only gets to reroll 1 d20 roll per turn, so if they burned it on an attack roll and natural 1 later versus Dominate Person? Uh-oh.
-As long as you cackle to extend it, you ONLY get a standard and swift action left, meaning you can either move or use another hex.

This doesn't seem unbalanced to me, particularly compared to the equally evil combination of Misfortune/Cackle (Which is basically a 1st level SoS spell, rolling twice on everything and taking the worst result is a death sentence) or Evil Eye/Cackle (Which is a debuff that KEEPS ON DEBUFFING FOREVER REGARDLESS!)

If you're ruling in the manner you are due to your sense of game balance, that's well and good, but I don't think the RAW supports it in this instance, and a look at it compared to other abilities of other characters as well as other abilities in the same class doesn't make the fortune/cackle seem particularly powerful.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Not quite but close. My interpretation of benefit is that the character chooses to take the re-roll. period. Until you actually invoke the power nothing at all has happened.
That's my viewing, once you've made use of the power (for good or naught) you have benefited from it and you have to wait 24 hours to do it again.

Would I prefer it works the other way ? As a player heck yeah, it'd be awesome, but as a GM it seems way way too powerful for a first level ability.

Too powerful? What do you think about Misfortune, which does require a save, but applies to multiple rolls/round and can also be extended by Cackle?

Is letting Fortune be used once per round, as the description specifies, if extended by Cackle, really that much more powerful?
And why say "once per round" instead of just "once", if extending the duration is only supposed to extend the time you can wait to use it?

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Not quite but close. My interpretation of benefit is that the character chooses to take the re-roll. period. Until you actually invoke the power nothing at all has happened.
That's my viewing, once you've made use of the power (for good or naught) you have benefited from it and you have to wait 24 hours to do it again.

Would I prefer it works the other way ? As a player heck yeah, it'd be awesome, but as a GM it seems way way too powerful for a first level ability.

Too powerful? What do you think about Misfortune, which does require a save, but applies to multiple rolls/round and can also be extended by Cackle?

Is letting Fortune be used once per round, as the description specifies, if extended by Cackle, really that much more powerful?
And why say "once per round" instead of just "once", if extending the duration is only supposed to extend the time you can wait to use it?

Misfortune is a non issue here since it does allow a save and 99% of the time is under the GM's control (it's used ON one of their creatures and if used on a PC falls under GM fiat), and don't underestimate the need to save.

This is an auto ability that really does let a PC not fail whenever they really decide to (usually). This is my real issue, it takes the fear of failure away from the PC. Anything they think is important they can feel confident that they have twice the opportunity to succeed so no drama whic really does reduce the suspense of it.
(as fr the once per round issue we've already covered that. It is there to keep you from re-rolling every die roll each round instead of just one roll)

@Trinam, you do make a valid point that other abilities exist out there that provide nearly equivalent bonuses and keeping this combo going does require effort. BUT just because another ability like it exists doesn't mean that's the way this one is supposed to work. The language in the hex is bad and the uncontrolled access to a re-roll seems prone to abuse so I'm trying to view it from all options and erring on the side of caution while looking it over.

I really do wish the dev's would make a ruling one way or another though.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

That makes great sense for the healing hex, doesn't really clear anything up for this hex though.

Well I posted that cause of the question in the post I quoted asking if it could be used more than once.


It shouldn't remove the fear of failure from a rational player character.

Bear in mind that you have to declare fortune prior to rolling either die. That makes it significantly less powerful than most reroll abilities, which are either rerolling all dice, or else rolling a die, seeing the result, and then rolling again. You don't have the ability to know in advance that you got a natural 1 on the first roll and thus it's useful.

There's a firm possibility that the power will get wasted even if it's used wisely. Adding the 'You can only ever do it once a day regardless' on top of that puts this in the realm of the Scar hex, pre-eratta in terms of usefulness.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


(as fr the once per round issue we've already covered that. It is there to keep you from re-rolling every die roll each round instead of just one roll)

No, it isn't. You need some language to prevent re-rolling every die roll. But the word "Once" without the "per round" would cover that.

If the wording was:
Quote:
The target can call upon this good luck once, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result.

then your argument would be much better and the re-roll still couldn't be used on every roll. I really can't see why the "per round" phrasing would be in any ability that cannot be used in more than one round.

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


(as fr the once per round issue we've already covered that. It is there to keep you from re-rolling every die roll each round instead of just one roll)

No, it isn't. You need some language to prevent re-rolling every die roll. But the word "Once" without the "per round" would cover that.

If the wording was:
Quote:
The target can call upon this good luck once, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result.
then your argument would be much better and the re-roll still couldn't be used on every roll. I really can't see why the "per round" phrasing would be in any ability that cannot be used in more than one round.

Well the way you just re-wrote it means you can only ever use this hex once in your lifetime. We know that's not the intent but it goes to show how easy it is to write something that causes all this confusion and is at the heart of a ll the RAW vs. RAI issues.

@Trinam, my reference is that gut wrenching moment when you've got the players sweating bullets knowing everything they've done comes down to a single roll of the day. That sense of excitement/fear when the whole table is quiet waiting to see what happens. It's kind of hard to keep that suspense up if every time that scene happens the player yawns and goes "I've got two chances at this, can someone grab me a coke while I roll this?"

That's my real dislike for this interpretation of the power.

Liberty's Edge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Well the way you just re-wrote it means you can only ever use this hex once in your lifetime.

What? Seriously, that's your arguement?

Quote:
That's my real dislike for this interpretation of the power.

So its not that you really think the power is 1/day, its not that you think its OMG broken. Its that you dislike it. If you'd said that much earlier, I think a lot of bickering could've been avoided.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


(as fr the once per round issue we've already covered that. It is there to keep you from re-rolling every die roll each round instead of just one roll)

No, it isn't. You need some language to prevent re-rolling every die roll. But the word "Once" without the "per round" would cover that.

If the wording was:
Quote:
The target can call upon this good luck once, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result.
then your argument would be much better and the re-roll still couldn't be used on every roll. I really can't see why the "per round" phrasing would be in any ability that cannot be used in more than one round.
Well the way you just re-wrote it means you can only ever use this hex once in your lifetime. We know that's not the intent but it goes to show how easy it is to write something that causes all this confusion and is at the heart of a ll the RAW vs. RAI issues.

Fine. I think that's stretching even RAW. (Given the full wording of the hex, technically you're granted a bit of good luck for 1 round. You can call upon this bit of good luck once. The next time the hex is used it's another bit of good luck.)

Then how about
Quote:
The target can call upon this good luck, allowing him to reroll any single ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result.

Or just "Once per application of the hex."

Regardless, the "once per round" just seems like horrible wording for an ability that is given a multiple round duration if it's only intended to work once.

In your interpretation, would you allow the hex to be re-applied to someone if they had let the duration expire without using the re-roll? They didn't benefit, so ...

Dark Archive

ShadowcatX wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Well the way you just re-wrote it means you can only ever use this hex once in your lifetime.

What? Seriously, that's your arguement?

Quote:
That's my real dislike for this interpretation of the power.
So its not that you really think the power is 1/day, its not that you think its OMG broken. Its that you dislike it. If you'd said that much earlier, I think a lot of bickering could've been avoided.

If you're going to quote me quote all of what I said. I used your post as an example of how the way you write something can really make things un-clear.

As for my dislike it has no bearing on how the power appears to work. I dislike lots of abilities in this game (Spell Sunder I'm looking at you) but understand how they work and use them that way. This one is not quite so easy to understand how it's supposed to work.

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