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I am thinking of playing an oracle soon. I intend to take the eldritch heritage line of feats. Is it possible for me to choose the arcane bloodline and add sorcerer spells to my list of spells known by picking up the New Arcana ability?
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Yes, You indeed can, in fact My Synthesist/EK uses it to get Elemental Touch, Vampiric Touch and Force Punch ... As I see it, doesnt seem all that powerful as the most it can give you is an 8th level sorc spell and there are bloodlines, Archetypes and whatever to get spells thats not on your list...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Eldritch Heritage doesn't actually give you access to spells (in most cases).
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
Each bloodline has bonus spells, bonus feats, and bloodline powers listed. The description of the feats indicates it only gives the latter.
The exceptions seem to be rounds/per day, such a Fey Bloodline's Fleeting Glance.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Eldritch Heritage doesn't actually give you access to spells (in most cases).
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.Each bloodline has bonus spells, bonus feats, and bloodline powers listed. The description of the feats indicates it only gives the latter.
The exceptions seem to be rounds/per day, such a Fey Bloodline's Fleeting Glance.
One of the bloodline powers of the Arcane bloodline gives you 3 sorc/wiz spells
Only problem i see with this is a ruling about casting sor/wiz spells with orcacle spell slots.
Only problem i see with this is a ruling about casting sor/wiz spells with orcacle spell slots.
There's precedence for adding spells to your list of spells known from other classes' spell lists. So I don't see why not.
Only problem i see with this is a ruling about casting sor/wiz spells with orcacle spell slots.
Related question about this same thing: can I do this for my Witch?
The section on patrons has the following:
"At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known."
Since the language under the Arcane Bloodline is the same, I should be able to use it to get further spells outside my normal class list, right?
Most GM's I know would rule that the spells added would have to be on both the sorcerer AND the oracle class lists.
Thats a pretty harsh nerfing of the feat line. I mean, it cost three feats to be at the point you can benefit from it.
I think its actually a pretty cool way to expand a classes options. A good alternative to Mystic Theurge, really.
Especially since the number of classes that can benefit is pretty open.
It might be harsh, but the person in my group who would most likely attempt it is our resident powergamer, and anything he comes up with gets additional scrutiny.
It's one thing if the wind oracle wants a few more weather spells, (which I myself would allow with no problem) yet quite another if the player is reaching for the "save and still suck" wizard spells.
How exactly does having one or two extra save or suck spells change the game in any way for the worse over having a sorcerer or wizard in the party who could do the same thing?
I am thinking of playing an oracle soon. I intend to take the eldritch heritage line of feats. Is it possible for me to choose the arcane bloodline and add sorcerer spells to my list of spells known by picking up the New Arcana ability?You get the bloodline powers ONLY. The feat does not give you access to spells.
in this case the bloodline power is access to spells.
I am thinking of playing an oracle soon. I intend to take the eldritch heritage line of feats. Is it possible for me to choose the arcane bloodline and add sorcerer spells to my list of spells known by picking up the New Arcana ability?
As a GM, I'd have no problem with this. You have spell slots of the appropriate levels, you learned the spells (even if it is in a roundabout way). As spells known, you are able to cast them spontaneously. There is sufficient canon to say that it's reasonable (in particular, given that the Oracle Mysteries can give you arcane spells already). It doesn't matter that they're not on your spell list as a possible selection because you're not selecting them as a level-based spell. You're doing what a feat tells you to do, which is to do what a Bloodline Power tells you to do.
Nothing wrong with that.
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You get access ONLY to those specific spells that are granted by the bloodline power. You can't add to those spells by taking on the arcana feats.in this case the bloodline power is access to spells.I am thinking of playing an oracle soon. I intend to take the eldritch heritage line of feats. Is it possible for me to choose the arcane bloodline and add sorcerer spells to my list of spells known by picking up the New Arcana ability?You get the bloodline powers ONLY. The feat does not give you access to spells.
Please stop posting until you read the ability that is being discussed.
Bloodline Powers: Magic comes naturally to you, but as you gain levels you must take care to prevent the power from overwhelming you.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
Metamagic Adept (Ex): At 3rd level, you can apply any one metamagic feat you know to a spell you are about to cast without increasing the casting time. You must still expend a higher-level spell slot to cast this spell. You can use this ability once per day at 3rd level and one additional time per day for every four sorcerer levels you possess beyond 3rd, up to five times per day at 19th level. At 20th level, this ability is replaced by arcane apotheosis.
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
I've bolded it in the spoiler for you.
You get access ONLY to those specific spells that are granted by the bloodline power. You can't add to those spells by taking on the arcana feats.
From d20pfsrd - Arcane Bloodline - Bloodline Powers:
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.From d20pfsrd - Improved Eldritch Heritage:
Benefit: You gain either the 3rd-level or the 9th-level power (your choice) of the bloodline you selected with the Eldritch Heritage feat.
You do get additional spells, but you must be able to cast spells that are 1 level higher than the spell you choose via this bloodline power.
That's not what Raving Dork was asking. He's thinkign of taking the feat to get spells by using he Arcane Bloodline and then taking the New Arcana feat to get MORE sorcerer spells on to his list. That second part is not allowed.
You get access ONLY to those specific spells that are granted by the bloodline power. You can't add to those spells by taking on the arcana feats.From d20pfsrd - Arcane Bloodline - Bloodline Powers:
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level..
New Arcana is the name of the Bloodline Power. The feat is separate and distinct.
That's not what Raving Dork was asking. He's thinkign of taking the feat to get spells by using he Arcane Bloodline and then taking the New Arcana feat to get MORE sorcerer spells on to his list. That second part is not allowed.
He's taking the Improved Eldritch Heritage feat (with a 'cost' of 3 feats) to add sorcerer spells to his Oracle's spell list (which are then cast at a -2 caster level). How are you denying this?
What is the Arcane Bloodline's 9th level bloodline power?
What does Improved Eldritch Heritage give you?
New Arcana is the name of the Bloodline Power. The feat is separate and distinct.
It's interesting how that can be overlooked even if it's quoted and bolded.
The feat is called Expanded Arcana, anyway.
...I've marked it as FAQ - could be good to know an official ruling for organized play as well...
I am thinking of playing an oracle soon. I intend to take the eldritch heritage line of feats. Is it possible for me to choose the arcane bloodline and add sorcerer spells to my list of spells known by picking up the New Arcana ability?
I think the real burning question I have on this (since my position has already been stated) is this:
Is this Oracle replacing your previously mentioned Transmuter, or is this in a different game?
I am thinking of playing an oracle soon. I intend to take the eldritch heritage line of feats. Is it possible for me to choose the arcane bloodline and add sorcerer spells to my list of spells known by picking up the New Arcana ability?I think the real burning question I have on this (since my position has already been stated) is this:
Is this Oracle replacing your previously mentioned Transmuter, or is this in a different game?
It's the Carrion Crown adventure path, which has yet to start in our group (but will soon).
IMO oracle getting spells it couldn't otherwise have is more powerful than the sorcerer/wiz having sor/wiz spells because oracle would be
casting without ASF, able to stack up DCs in ways Sor/Wiz can't usually (via mysteries), gaining brand new buffs that stack with CLR/ORA only spells, without having to go mystic theurge/while retaining better HD/BAB/Proficiencies. And, if you wanted to get DCs on SoS to be silly, you'd take your fresh new Sor/Wiz spells and stack up the DC via, say, Rage Prophet.
That said, I think that the feat tax is appropriate for the abilities granted.
...I've marked it as FAQ - could be good to know an official ruling for organized play as well...If a player is going to spend 3 feats including their final one at 11th.. for one spell known.. heck give it to them!
It's not overpowered.. quite the opposite unless you wanted an arcane bond and had a use for skill focus in a knowledge skill I don't think it's worthwhile over the oracle having things like quicken spell, reach spell, etc.
-James
while I do agree that it is definitely not overpowered.
The new arcana blood line gives you 3 spells known over time. 1 at 9, 1 at 13 and 1 at 17. or 11/15/19 for the dude getting it through eldritch heritage.
It's certainly better than taking Extra Spell (or whatever it's called in the APG) to get additional spells, as you're pulling from the other spell list AND you're pulling them 1 spell level up from where you'd get them if you were an actual Arcane Sorc. If he pulls for the Greater EH, it changes the 19 to 17, which sorta shoots him in the foot if he wanted the level 9 spell.
Alternatively, if we're talking an end by 12, It's sort of a crapshoot, but at least he'd get something like...Oh...Magic Jar.
I would argue that they would not be cast as -2 levels. The Sorcerer level -2 would apply to what level you could gain the bonus spells (13th & 17th making it 15th & 19th respectively.) but I would allow casting as normal spells. The Bloodline power is only that it adds the spells to your spells know. Not that it gives you the ability to cast them nor actually powers the casting of them. Once they are added the bloodline would be a nonissue when they are cast.
I'll buy that.
How does this affect level of spells selected. For example, let's say you're an 11th level Oracle, could you select a 5th level Sorc spell or, because of the -2 Sorc level restriction, would you be limited to spells of 4th level and below (like a 9th level Sorc)? I would think it would be the latter.
Eldritch Heritage, req Cha 13, HD3; Source
>Gain access to the 1st level bloodline power. Sorcerer lvl = HD-2
Improved Eldritch Heritage, req Cha 15, HD11; Source
>Gain access to the 3rd or 9th level bloodline power. Sorcerer lvl = HD-2
Greater Eldritch Heritage, req Cha 17, HD17; Source
>Gain access to the 15th level (or a lower one) bloodline power. Sorcerer lvl = HD (for all powers granted by Eldritch Heritage line of feats)
And finally...
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
Source
So, you can pick up IEH at HD11, gain 1 sorc/wizard spell. I would presume that it would be added as a "divine" variant of the spell, so no arcane spell failure.
Four levels later (HD15, effective sorc level 13) you would gain a 2nd spell.
If you picked up GEH at HD17, you would immediately get a 3rd spell as per the "New Arcana" bloodline power. If you didn't pick up GEH, you would have to wait until HD19 to gain the third spell.
I don't see the problem...
Eldritch Heritage, req Cha 13, HD3; Source
>Gain access to the 1st level bloodline power. Sorcerer lvl = HD-2Improved Eldritch Heritage, req Cha 15, HD11; Source
>Gain access to the 3rd or 9th level bloodline power. Sorcerer lvl = HD-2Greater Eldritch Heritage, req Cha 17, HD17; Source
>Gain access to the 15th level (or a lower one) bloodline power. Sorcerer lvl = HD (for all powers granted by Eldritch Heritage line of feats)
Ok with the above Information in mind do these feats also allow a Non Sorcerer to take Bloodline abilities from the Wildblood Blood Lines or are those limited to the Wildblood Arch type?
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I think you've also stumbled across a curse mitigating power.
since your forced to take the 1st level power and get arcane bond you get a familiar.
You can train/program your familiar to cover your deficiencies.
For example in the worse case the Deaf curse your familiar can poke you to indicate you should turn your head left or right to look at a source of sound.
If your sleeping and the familiar is woken by an ambush they wake you up since you share an empathic link, surprise and fear would be the emotion to wake you from your slumber.
At 11th you can take the share senses wiz/sorc spell as your choice of spell and hear like a normal person through your familiar. or some form of magic item with this spell effect you can use if you don't want to burn your wiz/sorc spell on share senses. I could be mistaken but you could potentially make this a permanent with permanency.
you could also have you familiar know a special touch code so when it hears people speaking it starts tapping out what they are saying allowing you to understand what is being said even though your familiar has no idea whats being spoken.
As a separate thing
You've also found a way for a Heavens Oracle to take Scintillating Pattern making their awesome display work at the high end. assuming you have at least an CHA of 30.
This would mean if your fighting 2 20HD creature they are treated as 10HD get no save and are stunned and confused for 1d4 + 1d4 rounds
pretty sweet.
You've also found a way for a Heavens Oracle to take Scintillating Pattern making their awesome display work at the high end. assuming you have at least an CHA of 30.
This would mean if your fighting 2 20HD creature they are treated as 10HD get no save and are stunned and confused for 1d4 + 1d4 rounds
pretty sweet.
I just might try that. :D
Again an arcane Sorcerer8/loremaster3 gaining the 9th level in sorcerer would be getting this bloodline ability and be able to select a 6th level spell, so I don't see an oracle as any different in this regard.-James
Well, the sorc/loremaster has taken a 3 level dip to accomplish this that the Oracle wouldn't have to consider. Why should the Oracle receive better spells from the arcane bloodline's 9th level bloodline power than an actual arcane bloodline sorcerer, especially when this feat appears to want to limit other classes' abilities to use that bloodline power vis-a-vis the -2 character level penalty?
If there is no difference as you've referenced above, an Oracle that waits until 19th level to pick this feat gains 3(!) 9th level Sorc/Wiz spells known. That really diminishes the feat tax.
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heck, if you are willing to wait until your character is 90% of the way to being gone to pick up some extra spells, I do not see the big deal.
90$ of the way to being gone?
You do realize that the lack of post-20th level rules does NOT mean that when you hit 20th level, you aren't allowed to play a character anymore, right?
heck, if you are willing to wait until your character is 90% of the way to being gone to pick up some extra spells, I do not see the big deal.
It's not a big deal, but is it adjudicated properly?
I posit that the -2 character level penalty should be applied to determine the highest level spell that can be selected via this feat as applied to New Arcana.
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On the topic of the eldritch heritage (arcane bloodline) feat... out of idle curiosity, what happens if a cleric picks an arcane bonded item? Does it nothing or is it ridiculously good?
On the topic of the eldritch heritage (arcane bloodline) feat... out of idle curiosity, what happens if a cleric picks an arcane bonded item? Does it nothing or is it ridiculously good?
They would have to start using a spellbook, and they would ONLY be able to use it once per day with their arcane bond.
That is a very liberal interpretation though, and I'm sure many wouldn't allow for it (citing things like "spellbook is a class ability of wizards, not an item anyone can use").
They would have to start using a spellbook, and they would ONLY be able to use it once per day with their arcane bond.
That is a very liberal interpretation though, and I'm sure many wouldn't allow for it (citing things like "spellbook is a class ability of wizards, not an item anyone can use").
How so? You're saying that an arcane blooded sorcerer has to have a spellbook to use his bonded item? What about the Magician or Arcane Duelist bards?
Question is would the spell gained in this way be considered divine spells since they use divine spell slots ?
I reluctantly open this can of worms to suggest access to Mystic Theruge with only 1 arcane level
Oracle 10/Sorc 1 + Improved Eldrich heritage pick a 2nd level arcane spell
9 level of Mystic theruge
Effectively Oracle 19/ Sorc 11 for spells known
Lose out on oracle abilities above 10 for 6th level and lower arcane spell slots, and lose out on oracle capstone. but a much more efficient mystic theruge build "IF" it meets the entry requirements
and yes you do need 1 level of something arcane because the mystic theruge will only increase an existing class and is worth nothing if you only have 1 class.
How so? You're saying that an arcane blooded sorcerer has to have a spellbook to use his bonded item? What about the Magician or Arcane Duelist bards?They would have to start using a spellbook, and they would ONLY be able to use it once per day with their arcane bond.
That is a very liberal interpretation though, and I'm sure many wouldn't allow for it (citing things like "spellbook is a class ability of wizards, not an item anyone can use").
I'm saying that some people (not me) might argue that a fighter or similar non-spellcaster would not be able to do it because he has no functional caster level, something that is only really given by classes. That, or something similar in thought.
I've seen this sort of thing debated before, so I'm not just making supposition.
I am curently playing a lore oracle with plans to go into pathfinder savant once I hit 10... yeah yeah i lose a caster lever at 1st...but I get to add spells from any spell list to my own while getting neat abilities.