[UM] Using Eldritch Heritage to get sorcerer spells?


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AerynTahlro wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


useless argument

So clearly I picked the wrong two classes to use as an example and you both completely missed the point.

Perhaps I should have gone with Magus/Wizard as the arcane/arcane multi-classer, since they both use spellbooks, or bard/sorcerer as they're both spontaneous (just because the bard side couldn't learn more doesn't mean that the sorcerer side couldn't use the bard spells that exist on the wizard/sorcerer chart); and cleric/wizard for the divine/arcane caster since they share a few spells but wouldn't actually "share" spells since the cleric's were of divine nature and the wizard's of arcane.

Point was, if they share a spell, caster type, and spell preparation method, it shouldn't matter where the spell was learned.

But it does matter where the spell was learned. It matters what class the spell is from.

All Bard spells require a verbal component(song, recitation, or music). This is stated in the bard class discriptions. This is a unique aspect of Bardic Arcane magic and is very different from Sorcerous Arcane magic and Wizardly arcane magic.

Magus: Many of the magi's class abilities ONLY work with spell on the Magus spell list. Even if he learns the spells as a Wizard he still can not use them with Spellstrike for example. Why because Magus Arcane magic is different in some ways from Wizardly Arcane magic. They can learn spells from each others spellbooks through study and deciphering the fundementals but they cast magic in very different ways. You actually have to have special training (A specific Magus Arcana) to use your wizard spells with Spellstrike.

The Witch, the witch is a prepared arcane caster just as a wizard is but can't learn spells from spellbooks at all. Why because Witchcraft Arcane magic is different from wizardly arcane magic.

Divine and Arcane are the two large catagories of magic. But within each there are many varied traditions and styles of magic. While there is some crossover and interaction between the different styles they are unique and individual magical practices.


ryric wrote:
SunsetPsychosis wrote:
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Arcane spells that would be inherently broken to give to a divine caster, though I'm sure someone could think of a few. The feat investment would be satisfactory for any game of mine, as most players would likely simply grab a few extra blaster spells not normally available to divines outside of Mysteries and Domains.

I think the only really abusable thing would be to take Personal range spells, which could be argued are intended mostly for squishy aracne casters to have access to.

I imagine a druid casting transformation on their animal companion (using Share Spells), or a summoner on their eidolon, for example.

I'm not sure if the liberal interpretation (that it works just fine) here is all that broken, even with that concern.

actually dosent work transformation does BAB = character level

eidelon and AniComps have hit dice based on your char level, they don't have character levels.

even allowing it Animal Companions are not OP and +12 to +20 only help them hit dosent increase no of attacks

for eidelon +15 to +20 even less of an impact.

i've yet to see anything even close to broken from this IEH/arcane bloodline combo

Dark Archive

Kalyth wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
AerynTahlro wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


useless argument

So clearly I picked the wrong two classes to use as an example and you both completely missed the point.

Perhaps I should have gone with Magus/Wizard as the arcane/arcane multi-classer, since they both use spellbooks, or bard/sorcerer as they're both spontaneous (just because the bard side couldn't learn more doesn't mean that the sorcerer side couldn't use the bard spells that exist on the wizard/sorcerer chart); and cleric/wizard for the divine/arcane caster since they share a few spells but wouldn't actually "share" spells since the cleric's were of divine nature and the wizard's of arcane.

Point was, if they share a spell, caster type, and spell preparation method, it shouldn't matter where the spell was learned.

But it does matter where the spell was learned. It matters what class the spell is from.

All Bard spells require a verbal component(song, recitation, or music). This is stated in the bard class discriptions. This is a unique aspect of Bardic Arcane magic and is very different from Sorcerous Arcane magic and Wizardly arcane magic.

Magus: Many of the magi's class abilities ONLY work with spell on the Magus spell list. Even if he learns the spells as a Wizard he still can not use them with Spellstrike for example. Why because Magus Arcane magic is different in some ways from Wizardly Arcane magic. They can learn spells from each others spellbooks through study and deciphering the fundementals but they cast magic in very different ways. You actually have to have special training (A specific Magus Arcana) to use your wizard spells with Spellstrike.

The Witch, the witch is a prepared arcane caster just as a wizard is but can't learn spells from spellbooks at all. Why because Witchcraft Arcane magic is different from wizardly arcane magic.

Divine and Arcane are the two large catagories of magic. But within each there are many...

+1

This pretty much the point we were making, each one of these has their own unique way to learn and prepare the spells on their respective spell list. If you don't learn AND prepare them as that class does then you can't use em.

It's like trying to open a program on a Linux machine and a Windows box. Each one has a specific way it expects the files to be encoded and if it's not in that format it fails.
The special abilities that adds a spell to another spell list changes that encoding so the other system knows what to do with it.

Short answer, if it doesn't specifically state it adds it to a classes spell list you can never cast it in the manner that class casts spells.


Phasics wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:
Well I personally fancy a late game summoner using animal growth on his eidolon(64 ish strength at the end baby).
eidelon is an outsider, animal growth only effects animals

well once animal growth is on your summoner spells known list, you can use it on your eidolon through the share spells feature.


Diego Rossi wrote:
As I have no limit to the number or level of spells I can add to my spellbook (with the exclusion of money and my spellcraft check), following your interpretation of the rules I would make a level 1 wizard/level 19 sorcerer, add all the existing spells to my spellbook and be capable of casting all existing spells spontaneously.

I imagine that would be difficult since a level 1 wizard cannot scribe a spell into his spellbook that he cannot cast...

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

It's like trying to open a program on a Linux machine and a Windows box. Each one has a specific way it expects the files to be encoded and if it's not in that format it fails.

The special abilities that adds a spell to another spell list changes that encoding so the other system knows what to do with it.

Short answer, if it doesn't specifically state it adds it to a classes spell list you can never cast it in the manner that class casts spells.

Actually if both classes share a spell, spell preparation method, and caster type, I'd say it would be more like having a .jpg on a Windows machine and a linux machine. It doesn't matter that the program you use to open would be different, the jpg is still a jpg. If you know how to open the file and have the means with which to do it, it shouldn't matter how you open it.

And as far as casting it in the manner in which that class casts spells... that's why I was saying earlier that the spell would add as a divine variant to the original spell. You wouldn't be adding the spell as an arcane spell, you would be adding it as a divine spell due to the nature of how your character casts magic. The access to the spell is granted from the bloodline and its powers are manifesting in your chosen manner (divine). How is that a problem? Better question, would you still have this much of an issue with the topic if the OP was a magus, and used the New Arcana via EH to learn spells that would normally be on his class list?

Another poster brought up the idea about Cleric Domain spells, which can sometimes grant the capability to cast a spell that's normally arcane but as a divine variant from a divine/domain spell slot. Now, the cleric domain spells are adding in a different manner than the EH spells would, so it's not the best comparison (which is why I didn't bring it up myself). That said, a divine caster is still gaining the capability to cast an arcane spell. Beyond the fact that the cleric would be restricted to preparing said spell in his domain slots, how is that different? Those spells are, for all intents and purposes, on the cleric's spell list.

Dark Archive

AerynTahlro wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
As I have no limit to the number or level of spells I can add to my spellbook (with the exclusion of money and my spellcraft check), following your interpretation of the rules I would make a level 1 wizard/level 19 sorcerer, add all the existing spells to my spellbook and be capable of casting all existing spells spontaneously.

I imagine that would be difficult since a level 1 wizard cannot scribe a spell into his spellbook that he cannot cast...

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

It's like trying to open a program on a Linux machine and a Windows box. Each one has a specific way it expects the files to be encoded and if it's not in that format it fails.

The special abilities that adds a spell to another spell list changes that encoding so the other system knows what to do with it.

Short answer, if it doesn't specifically state it adds it to a classes spell list you can never cast it in the manner that class casts spells.

Actually if both classes share a spell, spell preparation method, and caster type, I'd say it would be more like having a .jpg on a Windows machine and a linux machine. It doesn't matter that the program you use to open would be different, the jpg is still a jpg. If you know how to open the file and have the means with which to do it, it shouldn't matter how you open it.

And as far as casting it in the manner in which that class casts spells... that's why I was saying earlier that the spell would add as a divine variant to the original spell. You wouldn't be adding the spell as an arcane spell, you would be adding it as a divine spell due to the nature of how your character casts magic. The access to the spell is granted from the bloodline and its powers are manifesting in your chosen manner (divine). How is that a problem? Better question, would you still have this much of an issue with the topic if the OP was a magus, and used the New Arcana via EH to learn spells that would normally be on his class list?

Another poster brought up the idea...

You've almost got it.

Now remember, no two arcane classes share all three of spell, spell preparation method, and caster type. Even the Magus and wizard (though close) have a difference in how the cast their spells.

Quote:

A magus casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list presented on page 13.

A magus can learn spells from a wizard’s spellbook, just as a wizard can from a magus’s spellbook. The spells learned must be on the magus spell list, as normal.

So a Magus can LEARN a spell from a wizards spellbook and put it in his Magus spellbook he can only learn MAGUS spells that way to cast like a magus does.

As for your idea of adding it as a divine whatever, I don't see anything at all in the feat description about any divine component. The special ability we are using this feat to grab SPECIFICALLY states Sorceror/Wizard defaulting it to Arcane at a minimum and Sorceror/Wizard if taken as written.

If the OP was doing this with a Magus it's still the same problem, they don't have access to the Sorceror/Wizard spell list and don't have Sorceror/Wizard spell slots.
The new arcana specifically states it adds it to your list of spells known not your class spell list. One is the spells you've discovered and know how to cast, the other is list of spells your class lets you use your spellcasting class=X power to actually cast.

It's like a paladin who has fallen and lost all his powers and taken levels in something else. He doesn't lose his understanding of HOW to cast any Paladin spell he knew he just doesn't have the power to FUEL casting those spells.


Just to throw some numbers at you...

There are 40 1st level spells that Bards share with Wizards. So let's say you have a Bard 1 / Wizard 5.

The Bard knows 2 spells and has 1 1st-level spell slot per day.
The Wizard knows 10 spells and has 3 1st-level, 2 2nd-level, & 1 3rd-level slots per day.

If the Wizard decided to put all of his known spells into 1st-level spells (and a couple 2nd level spells, since some of these spells are Wizard 2, Bard 1) and transcribed the spells learned from Bard into his spell book, he would have 12 spells in his book. If he memorized the spells from the book for Bard-use, he would know 12 spells. That leaves 28 more shared spells possible.

Even if the Wizard did spend the 28 hours studying each spell, perform the 28 DC16 Spellcraft checks to understand the spell, spend the 28 hours transcribing each spell into his spellbook, and the 280gp to pay for transcribing, he would still only be able to cast a whopping one spell in his Bard slot. This effort, btw, would take up 40/100 pages in the spellbook.

I'm having trouble seeing how that breaks the game. Gaining more levels in Wizard, you would still only be able to cast those Level 1 spells in the level 1 Bard slot.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
As for your idea of adding it as a divine whatever, I don't see anything at all in the feat description about any divine component. The special ability we are using this feat to grab SPECIFICALLY states Sorceror/Wizard defaulting it to Arcane at a minimum and Sorceror/Wizard if taken as written.

Eldritch Heritage grants you sorcerer bloodline powers due to your character's blood and history. Those powers are manifesting and being channeled however you can control them, they're not turning you into a sorcerer, they are augmenting your existing capabilities by allowing you to channel your 'bloodline' through who are you. If who you are is a divine caster, then the arcane magics granted through your blood would manifest in a divine manner. You know these spells, your deity/faith helps you manifest them divinely. What the rules/mechanics don't explain, the fluff easily does.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:

Wonnerfull interpretation.

As I have no limit to the number or level of spells I can add to my spellbook (with the exclusion of money and my spellcraft check), following your interpretation of the rules I would make a level 1 wizard/level 19 sorcerer, add all the existing spells to my spellbook and be capable of casting all existing spells spontaneously.

You notice some small problem with that?

I'm strongly beginning to suspect you, and other posters like you, are being deliberately obtuse. Of course the above ISN'T what any of us mean. To say as much is to put words in our mouths and to make a straw man.

Stop it please.


Ravingdork wrote:

I'm strongly beginning to suspect you, and other posters like you, are being deliberately obtuse. Of course the above ISN'T what any of us mean. To say as much is to put words in our mouths and to make a straw man.

Stop it please.

Then I've been obtuse as well, as that's exactly what I thought was being described by someone else.

Mind you it's a tangent to the main idea, which frankly I have no problem with and there are plenty of other places where things like this occur. I see it as people making knee-jerk reactions of "OMG that would be broken! How could it possibly not be the case..." without thinking.

Consider the other thread you started about picking up a +6 inherent bonus... I'm sorry but getting a 3rd extra spell known by 19th level doesn't compete with this. If one were allowed to even GET such a bonus it would cost 150k gold to cast sufficient wishes/miracles. For far less than that the 19th level oracle could have a staff that they could recharge chock filled with 9th level wizard/sorcerer spells.

People look at 20th level like it's just a slightly advanced 12th level. It's not even the same game. There are other threads where someone was talking about a 12BAB PC dealing 65 (130 on a failed fort save) on a whip attack as a decent melee attack for 20th level! Such is doable around 10th level..

And when we're looking at 11th level we're talking about 3 feats for just a single spell. That's not worth it unless you already wanted the other 2 feats... which is what I've been saying all along.

Personally I think you could do better with a deaf halfling support oracle (say of life) going with the shadow bloodline. You'd never be able to reasonably target them, which makes for a very useful support caster in my book. Mind you it's still a lot of feats so its going to curtail other choices there.

-James

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
AerynTahlro wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
As I have no limit to the number or level of spells I can add to my spellbook (with the exclusion of money and my spellcraft check), following your interpretation of the rules I would make a level 1 wizard/level 19 sorcerer, add all the existing spells to my spellbook and be capable of casting all existing spells spontaneously.

I imagine that would be difficult since a level 1 wizard cannot scribe a spell into his spellbook that he cannot cast...

Try to find a rule saying that.

The rule say:

"Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment."

There is no requirement anywhere for it of be of a level he can cast.

Ravingdork wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Wonnerfull interpretation.

As I have no limit to the number or level of spells I can add to my spellbook (with the exclusion of money and my spellcraft check), following your interpretation of the rules I would make a level 1 wizard/level 19 sorcerer, add all the existing spells to my spellbook and be capable of casting all existing spells spontaneously.

You notice some small problem with that?

I'm strongly beginning to suspect you, and other posters like you, are being deliberately obtuse. Of course the above ISN'T what any of us mean. To say as much is to put words in our mouths and to make a straw man.

Stop it please.

I strongly suggest you read AerynTahlro posts.


Diego Rossi wrote:
~stuff~

I'm not going to continue this discussion in this thread, I feel like the original topic is getting hijacked. If you want to continue discussing this, go ahead and create a new thread.

More on topic, as I still stand by my position on how RavingDork's original question would work.

Quote:


Eldritch Heritage grants you sorcerer bloodline powers due to your character's blood and history. Those powers are manifesting and being channeled however you can control them, they're not turning you into a sorcerer, they are augmenting your existing capabilities by allowing you to channel your 'bloodline' through who are you. If who you are is a divine caster, then the arcane magics granted through your blood would manifest in a divine manner. You know these spells, your deity/faith helps you manifest them divinely. What the rules/mechanics don't explain, the fluff easily does.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

This topic is a little old, but I feel I must chime in.

"Improved Eldritch Heritage:
You gain either the 3rd-level or the 9th-level power (your choice) of the bloodline you selected with the Eldritch Heritage feat. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities."

In the arcane bloodline this lets you chose between using one metamagic feat without increaing casting time or

"New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level."

Emphasis mine.

If I'm say, a bard, I have a list of spells known, I have a spell level I am capable of casting. RAW, I don't see how any argument that says I can't take the spells in this case holds any water. What's more, this seems to be the only reason anyone would want to take this feat for the arcane bloodline in the first place. So not allowing it gimps a feat you had to spend three feats on!

Lastly, for those arguing that you have to apply them to sorcerer spells and levels, well then for consistency that would mean when any of the bloodline features says "level" they must mean "sorcerer level" too. Which would mean almost every single bloodline power would be unusable for non sorcerers, making this feat pretty much useless.

I'd probably go one step further and replace every instance of "sorcerer level" in every bloodline with just "level" too, but that's getting outside the scope of this :P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

<Threasurection/>

Assuming for a moment that it works (I know that is the unresolved contention...)

IF it works, if an Oracle 11 took the feat, could she select a level 5 sorcerer spell, as level 5 is her current highest spell level, or at best a level 4 spell because her "effective sorcerer level" is 9, and a 9th level sorcerer can only access 4th level spells?


/head 'asplode

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't think that is a sorcerer spell


So... has this never been "officially" answered by a dev? I just scoured Google results for over an hour and didn't turn up anything "official looking."


Critical Success wrote:
So... has this never been "officially" answered by a dev? I just scoured Google results for over an hour and didn't turn up anything "official looking."

This has been answered in FAQ.

You can have spells added to your list of spells known, but unless a class feature of one of your classes put them there, you are unable to cast them unless the spell is also on your class's spell list.

FOR EXAMPLE

A Sorcerer gains an ability, outside of his class, that adds Cure Light Wounds to his list of spells known. He still can't cast it because it's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

Also, in most locales, necromancy is considered an evil act.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
CalethosVB wrote:
Critical Success wrote:
So... has this never been "officially" answered by a dev? I just scoured Google results for over an hour and didn't turn up anything "official looking."

This has been answered in FAQ.

You can have spells added to your list of spells known, but unless a class feature of one of your classes put them there, you are unable to cast them unless the spell is also on your class's spell list.

FOR EXAMPLE

A Sorcerer gains an ability, outside of his class, that adds Cure Light Wounds to his list of spells known. He still can't cast it because it's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

Also, in most locales, necromancy is considered an evil act.

Thanks so much for the reply!

Two follow up questions then, so let's say that you're a level... 20 Rogue. You don't have any "Spells Known List." You take Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage, so "For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer."

So then doesn't the very feat grant the ability to cast whatever spell is you choose with Improved Eldritch Heritage?

If not, then would taking a single level in Sorcerer (so a level 19 Rogue, level 1 Sorcerer) with these feats be able to cast whatever spell they chose with Improved Eldritch Heritage, because now they'd have a "Spells Known List?"

And finally, from the quote you provided, what if the original 20th level Rogue with IEH also has the Major Magic Rogue Talent which then gives them access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list?

I feel this would be easier if a Dev said, "Yes, EH with the Arcane Bloodline lets people cast a spell," or, "No. It doesn't."

Thanks for the help, btw!


Nice Threadomancer. But next time you should conjure up a new thread like any respectable mage!

For level 20 Rogue : No. The feat gives you Sorcerer level to determine power but not Sorcerer class feature. It's the same reason why you don't get other Sorcerer class feature like Eschew Material, Bloodline feat, etc. from Eldritch Heritage. Spell list is a class feature just like those things.

For Level 19 Rogue / 1 Sorc : You probably could casts it using your Level 1 Sorcerer spell slot. So you can't actually cast any 2nd level spell or higher.

For Major Magic : I'm not 100% sure but the answer is probably no. SLA follows different rule than normal spell casting. You don't actually has access to spell list, and Rogue Talent only gives you the ability to casts that one spell you choose.

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